Been playing this game for ~3 months now. My thoughts so far

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

This I have a issue with, the healers job is to keep everyone alive period end of story. If they decide to do some dpsing then consider it extra but do not expect it. I main healer and I do not DPS, if I wanted to DPS I would play my DPS job not healer. This is a heated debate on the forums.

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I am 100% behind you with this. No other mmo I have played (and there's many) has a healer been exPECTED to dps. Their job is to keep everyone alive, not keep everyone alive AND dps. If you want more dps to down things faster then you better step up your game as a dps, not expect the healer to help.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

Another thing about the gear...
What's the point in upgrading your i200 gear to i210?

I did hullbreaker isle hm 3 times now and already am i210.
4 more pieces to go and I'm full i215.The only thing that seems to be worth upgrading is the weapon as there doesn't seem to be an i215 one.

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Because they used to be relevant and they still keep old gears for glamours and whatnot, also the 210 can be dyed so they don't remove their upgrade paths for those purposes, glamour true endgame.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

This I have a issue with, the healers job is to keep everyone alive period end of story. If they decide to do some dpsing then consider it extra but do not expect it. I main healer and I do not DPS, if I wanted to DPS I would play my DPS job not healer. This is a heated debate on the forums.

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http://i.imgur.com/ZJ72iwT.png

What do you even do in a dungeon, just walk?

OP, as far as the story goes, you blasted through what others have taken 3 years to complete.
Taken in small bites its not so tedious and you can actually savor the cutscenes and story instead trying gorge on years of cutscenes in a few weeks. Of course you're not going to like it.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

This I have a issue with, the healers job is to keep everyone alive period end of story. If they decide to do some dpsing then consider it extra but do not expect it. I main healer and I do not DPS, if I wanted to DPS I would play my DPS job not healer. This is a heated debate on the forums.

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From what I can tell you are no healer. You are a DPS that can heal.
Is it so hard to use some attacks that deal damage?Don't be lazy and do something.There's a reason SE gave you those damage dealing skills.Guess what, it's so that you can deal damage.

I hate it when the healer just sits there doing nothing except for pressing a button every few seconds.Why are you even playing the game when you're doing nothing?
I always feel like carrying a lazy person who is contributing almost nothing to the party.

I'm not trying to attack you, just sharing my point of view.

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Originally Posted by zemogFC

OP, as far as the story goes, you blasted through what others have taken 3 years to complete.
Taken in small bites its not so tedious and you can actually savor the cutscenes and story instead trying gorge on years of cutscenes in a few weeks. Of course you're not going to like it.

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That probably is a big part of why the story feels so meh.

@ Bixillarla I agree that healer's job is to keep everyone alive. In other mmos there was no time to dps since you're the only one healing 6 players plus damage was terrible for healers. But in ff14 healers have cleric stance and are usually paired with an off-healer which makes healing not so challenging. Dungeons are so easy that it doesn't call for much healing at all. I don't understand why you would prefer to stand not doing anything for so long, isn't that so boring? Some dungeons you can do without needing a healer. That's another thing I don't like about healing in this game you don't need two healers for most of the content it takes away the challenge.

The thing about not having a real antagonist is spot on. Every one they bring up that has the true potential to be one, they just kill off IMMEDIATELY (and you do it). While satisfying to kill the person you begin to hate, they leave absolutely not room for you to seethe and truly build up a disliking of an evil character. Lahabrea is annoying, but he was never truly someone you hated. There was potential with Nabriales, but he basically shows up, kills moenbryda and you build up some dislike for him, but he's immediately gone once you begin to hate him. So nothing there. Every ascian they introduce basically dies in a short time frame after you met them and you can hardly even hate them before they fall.

All of the Garlean's I basically just see as stupid. The emperor was just obsessive and there was no true build up of hate between the WoL and him. All of the generals are now complete jokes to beat (and not like they were very hard at the time either). Nero has some decent character development, but they do the opposite and make you sort of like him rather than hate him during the crystal tower raids.

When that guy betrayed the crystal braves, i didn't "hate" him, I was just like, "why the F did we make this group in the first place?" They did a whole lot of nothing and them bam, implosion.

The Warrior of Darkness group, I basically just see them as annoyances as well. Yes, they've attacked you a few times. But they've done nothing else really. Do you know how many things attack me?! I don't really care anymore. Yes, their creepy smiles well.... creep me out, but that isn't what makes an antagonist.

Thordan was a decent potential. You do grow to hate him (mostly because he's reminiscent of a racist grandpa who still believes hitler is the best thing since slice bread), but alas, he's also dead already. And the person that killed Haurchefant had SOOOOOOOO much potential to be an amazing antagonist as nearly everyone in the game was moved by Haurchefant and I'm pretty sure everyone experienced some onion ninjas sneaking around their house whenever they encountered that scene. Like, I was LOOKING to friggin kill that guy after that scene. But alas, I don't even get the chance to just simply fight him 1 on 1. He's just part of the thordan possy. You also have Nidhogg, whom "dies" god knows how many times (seriously?! what is he, a cat?!). Hopefully he's actually dead now and in kitty heaven.

Now, I'm perfectly fine with the antagonist dying. Heck, that's awesome. But when they only exist as an antagonist for a very short amount of time (or you constantly think they're dead!!) it's hard to continue hating them. Especially when they've really barely done anything to piss you off.

And as the OP pointed out, SE seems to like to rush the idea of anger or friendship in general. I don't actually feel any fear, hate or w/e when encountering boss enemies. I just feel annoyed that I'm on yet another errand run for the Eorzean people and not a single F'in one of them is there helping me (lazy bums). Though, I do like the 3 generals, but that's because they've actually shown them to be bada$$es at some point. Raubahn chopping lalafels in half (that in itself is enough to get me to love him), the maelstorm admiral shooting the ever living crap out of that sahagin (however you spell it) and the seedseer... well, she hasn't done anything particularly cool to say. I just like how she's the only leader who's like, "i want to bring peace and prosperity to the land" and all the other generals are like, "yea, let's conquer that shiz. No ragrets!"

But I don't feel "close" to any of them. Not really. More so, I feel like their slave, not their savior. Who sends their savior to go halfway across the world to go "talk" to someone "for" them and then upon getting there, they fricking message you via a headset (couldn't of friggin used that before huh minfillia?!) and then decide they should all meet up together where we started... yea. F you guys. I didn't just save you from a giant rock demon so I could run back and forth for 20 minutes to talk about how incompetent you all are for letting it happen 3 times each.

Alphinaud and Estinien's little bromance came out of no-where. Like, the new patch came out and he was all like, "nuuu I can't live without him! Screw saving Eorzea, I'll just risk my and everyone else's life for him even though we barely talked and he for the most part was an absolute ass throughout the entirety of us trying to make "peace" with the dragons. Seriously... it was basically like:
WoL: We're here to make peace with you dragons
Dragon: We're still angry that you killed one of us
Estinien: I'll jam this spear in your eye!
Alphinaud: omg, you're so funny Estinien! Please have my babies.

I find a majority of the protagonists annoying rather than compelling. They're just sooo..... helpless for the most part. Haurchefant was a fantastic breath of fresh air. He was likable in just about every sense. If only SE could make 20 more of him, then maybe the Eorzea could actually achieve something on their own every once in a blue moon.

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Originally Posted by Annie2732

@ Bixillarla I agree that healer's job is to keep everyone alive. In other mmos there was no time to dps since you're the only one healing 6 players plus damage was terrible for healers. But in ff14 healers have cleric stance and are usually paired with an off-healer which makes healing not so challenging. Dungeons are so easy that it doesn't call for much healing at all. I don't understand why you would prefer to stand not doing anything for so long, isn't that so boring? Some dungeons you can do without needing a healer. That's another thing I don't like about healing in this game you don't need two healers for most of the content it takes away the challenge.

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That's why one of my guild mates focuses on DPS instead of Healing when the 2nd healer is capable of healing the tank on his own (which he most of the time is).

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Demon wall of text

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THIS

Agree to disagree in relation to the story. Up until you start doing primals, the city state story line is rather dull. But once you get to Ifrit than it becomes the main plot and it starts picking up. IMO the general enemy for all of 2.xx was the Garlean's, and the ascians. The Ascians are the whole reason you end up needing to fight these primals in the first place. Don't forget the issues with the beastmen, which is more city state than anything and ss you continue through you sort of get dragged back into Uldah's city drama, but it's pretty interesting.

I would say the only thing that made 3.xx not so fun, was all the moogle quests. But the main plot was great. My only issue with Estinien was that, as a DRG, I wish my character would've had more input or say with him. For anyone who plays DRG - SPOILERS BELOW:

In the DRG quest line we have to fight Estinien, and take back the "eye" in the first place. Heck even in the end of 2.55 Estinien makes a comment that he is not there as your enemy today. As the "other" Azure Dragoon I wish I would've had more say on the eyes, and what Estinien was given, because my character all ready knew he had succumb to the call of Nidhogg once all ready.

So that's my only grip with 3.xx so far.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

I am 100% behind you with this. No other mmo I have played (and there's many) has a healer been exPECTED to dps. Their job is to keep everyone alive, not keep everyone alive AND dps. If you want more dps to down things faster then you better step up your game as a dps, not expect the healer to help.

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It's fine if this is your play style more power to you and I'm not going to tell you to stop doing your thing. But for 99% of the content in this game most of your party are at full health during combat or at high enough health that they aren't at a risk of dying. I'd rather be DPS'ing and making content go by faster than sit there doing nothing and twiddling my fingers together waiting to cast a cure spell.

What's annoying is everyone who says "the story just isn't for you," they then don't give very good arguments about why they think the story is alright.
Now I think OP makes some very good points about why the story seems all over the place, it's random and is completely at the behest of the gameplay. "Well we need them to fight a cool boss, throw in a primal/garlean/this other thing!" They kill off promising characters before you get a chance to really know them, and leave the dull characters from 1.0.

That said, for myself and many people still playing the game, we've been playing patch by patch (or a couple patches at a time) for 3 years. If you just started 3 months ago, and bum-rushed your way through it, it's like the guy that marathons some critically acclaimed TV show in a weekend then after that says "it was okay." You need down time to digest it. However, as I mentioned before, FFXIV's story isn't a critically acclaimed TV show, it's an ongoing anime storyline with arcs and such. I've been able to get invested because... I've been slowly following it over the years, but it could be SO much better.

As for the healers in dungeons thing... there are people that actually tryhard in roulettes? Last I checked the average thing people did was watch TV or something while doing roulettes because there's no way to make the thing you've run dozens of times not be dull.

There is really a gap between the casual level in this game (play a little bit each week for your tome handout), and there's the hard as balls raid which only works for the tiny group of people who are able to commit 1-3 nights a week or more to it (I have a varying schedule so there's no way I could raid in this game, even though I did do tough events in FFXI). Hopefully Deep Dungeon will fill that midcore gap, but we're pinning our hopes on that one event, and Diadem possibly getting revamped. Weeping City is fun, not facerolly, but it drops gear that doesn't really matter and once you get your drop for the week there's no reason to do it again.

Disagree there about the anima, you wouldn't have lasted long in the FFXI days, those things took years to make and felt really rewarding once you completed them. These do as well, but less so because they're never going to be best and next patch they'll nerf the path to getting them and there'll be another step. For people like myself who can't raid the anima is really the closest thing we have to some kind of "glory gear," something that is an actual upgrade, that you can also show off.

It's hard to make challenging content that you repeat because after a certain point, even the hardest content you'll have on farm and then that's that. You'll see the community do so with Weeping City, you'll see a lot of people do so with EX Primals, and the raiders with Alex Savage. All fights are "if they do this do this" so they're a puzzle; once you learn it you're mostly good.

In a nutshell though, stockholm syndrome is real, if you've been invested in this game for years it's easy to start feeling comfortable and good with the story and not be critical of it, and the same with the content we do, aka "the same s*** every patch."

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Originally Posted by seraf

It's fine if this is your play style more power to you and I'm not going to tell you to stop doing your thing. But for 99% of the content in this game most of your party are at full health during combat or at high enough health that they aren't at a risk of dying. I'd rather be DPS'ing and making content go by faster than sit there doing nothing and twiddling my fingers together waiting to cast a cure spell.

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That's fine. I have no problem with a healer choosing to dps. I'm just saying they shouldn't be expected to.

No content I've played so far was hard/challenging.
The first time I did Hullbreaker isle hm I expected a challenging dungeon.I mean its labeled as "expert" but what I got was a dungeon with barely any mechanics and barely any challenge to it.I was extremely disappointed.I have not encountered any challenging fight yet.
There is the occasional wipe in Bismarck hm when the group fails the damage check.
The ministrels Ballad Ultima was a step in the right direction but that fight isn't particularily hard.

Are Extreme primals and Raids really the only challenging thing in the game?

Pretty much. Supposedly floors 100-200 of the Palace of the Dead will be challenging but we're a long way from those being released.
This game is mostly casual focused.

Yup. There's a very empty void of "mid-core" content.
Weeping City is mid-core right now but will become easy once people learn the fights better and get higher ilevel gear.

Savage and new Ex primals are too hard to people and dungeons and NM primals are faceroll easy.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

Are Extreme primals and Raids really the only challenging thing in the game?

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Well honestly the Ex fights are fun. Even if you go in unsync'd at lvl 60, i've still seen people wipe because the mechanics are the name of the game ^^
But at the same time, if you have the basic understanding of the mechanics to the Ex fights, they will also be a walk in the park.

If you want a REAL challenge... you can try queuing for sync'd DF Ex trials... that's always a fun one. I do it every so often for Odin and Titan mostly. I find those fights really tough sync'd, especially when you're with a full group with ironworks gear or less with you. But you could also see that as an act of masochism...

Oh and hullbreaker HM doesn't count. It's the worst thing SE has ever brought us in terms of a challenge dungeon wise imo. However, I will say I actually LOVE getting it when doing Ex roulette. Only because I know it'll be a quick breeze to get through compared to the other option. But this is simply me liking the ability to do it easily and quickly after the 20 billion times I've had to run the 2 Ex roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

No content I've played so far was hard/challenging.
The first time I did Hullbreaker isle hm I expected a challenging dungeon.I mean its labeled as "expert" but what I got was a dungeon with barely any mechanics and barely any challenge to it.I was extremely disappointed.I have not encountered any challenging fight yet.
There is the occasional wipe in Bismarck hm when the group fails the damage check.
The ministrels Ballad Ultima was a step in the right direction but that fight isn't particularily hard.

Are Extreme primals and Raids really the only challenging thing in the game?

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Dungeons haven't been challenging since Pharos back in 2.1. People whined and complained to high heaven because they took a bit of time to do and it was messing with there tome farming. Plus if the total incompetent player can't complete it then its deemed too hard and is made much easier.

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Originally Posted by zemogFC

OP, as far as the story goes, you blasted through what others have taken 3 years to complete.
Taken in small bites its not so tedious and you can actually savor the cutscenes and story instead trying gorge on years of cutscenes in a few weeks. Of course you're not going to like it.

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

That said, for myself and many people still playing the game, we've been playing patch by patch (or a couple patches at a time) for 3 years. If you just started 3 months ago, and bum-rushed your way through it, it's like the guy that marathons some critically acclaimed TV show in a weekend then after that says "it was okay." You need down time to digest it. However, as I mentioned before, FFXIV's story isn't a critically acclaimed TV show, it's an ongoing anime storyline with arcs and such. I've been able to get invested because... I've been slowly following it over the years, but it could be SO much better.

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Now, I get this may just be me, but I just find this concept rather... bad. This idea whereas the only way for it to look good is to not actually see it as a whole, where of course any faults or blemishes are much more apparent. Yeah there's an ingestion period to be had, but I've binged watched entire series before and when you do, you give yourself a day to really process everything. Not once have I felt that delaying any of them would serve to make them better. Mostly because those, much like FFXIV's story, is presented pretty much at face value. There may be little things to think about, maybe, like foreshadowing that people had to sit on, or certain cliffhangers, but that is by far a small part to the over-arching story thus far. Seeing it all together then and there just shows that they opt to drag out the storyline because up close, you see just how disconnected a lot of really is. Rather than expansive narration/storytelling to make us hate someone naturally, they drag out one very small bit suspense trying to see if any outside influence can add fuel to the fire. They keep you pulled long enough to when the next patch comes out, people are just ready to press on with events so they don't have to give any emphasis to "What's happening outside any immediate dangers", and that I feel has been one of the worst for these NPCs as it doesn't breathe any life into them. You only get to see them when there's things to be done.

You know what would have maybe made me or others care about Minfillia more? If every mission, even ones that didn't involve you meeting her, you have her in her office or somewhere else and she could have had some flavor text. Things on her mind, small conversation, anything really that could have fleshed her out, make her any bit more interesting other than what flimsy personality they showed off during missions. Same as anyone. Maybe my standards are just too damn high, but I want characters that actually look and feel alive. That's why I've said it's gotten better with HW. Because even after missions you'll find characters around in that moment where you can get some dialogue. It's certainly added much for Thancred; thus far he's the one that feels most alive. Alphinaud a bit better, but most of his still ends up focusing on the where the task leaves off.

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

You are healing wrong. I would mentally blacklist you if you were on my server.

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Hmmm...and after this comment, I'm reminded what an intolerant bunch of people play this game. Note the phrase "play this game" It's a game that we play, you know fun and games, playing for fun, etc... It's not a job or a sport, it's a game, meant to be enjoyed for fun. If you personally lack the patience to deal with others who are not up to your pro-bro standards, then make a premade, and stay away from DF/DR. Complaints like yours display little more than your own intolerance.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

That's fine. I have no problem with a healer choosing to dps. I'm just saying they shouldn't be expected to.

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Some people play a role because they enjoy that aspect and nothing is wrong with that at all. I love healing but I also love dpsing so it makes me happy a healer can do both. In dungeons I do both maybe I dps more than I should but no one usually dies so its ok! ^^ if people don't want to do it then thats fine, life goes on and so does the dungeon. Its not like you or anyone else is hindering the outcome like say a person RPing as an ice mage or a bard not using songs.....

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Originally Posted by Lisotte

What's annoying is everyone who says "the story just isn't for you," they then don't give very good arguments about why they think the story is alright.
Now I think OP makes some very good points about why the story seems all over the place, it's random and is completely at the behest of the gameplay. "Well we need them to fight a cool boss, throw in a primal/garlean/this other thing!"

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If you'd like I could give a break down of why it's not all over the place and how many of the story threads that begin early on (even as far back as levels 10 to 15ish) connect to what happens later, and how various arcs lead to one another...

But it would be a lengthy post, and I'd rather only do that much typing (and fact checking old quests text, dialog, watching cutscenes, etc) if someone actually wants me to.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Some people play a role because they enjoy that aspect and nothing is wrong with that at all. I love healing but I also love dpsing so it makes me happy a healer can do both. In dungeons I do both maybe I dps more than I should but no one usually dies so its ok! ^^ if people don't want to do it then thats fine, life goes on and so does the dungeon. Its not like you or anyone else is hindering the outcome like say a person RPing as an ice mage or a bard not using songs.....

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I agree with you. I hope I wasn't misunderstood.

on topic though - people play games for different reasons. I happen to really enjoy the storytelling in this game. In fact I'd go so far as to say there isn't an mmo out there that does it better, and I played almost every class in SWTOR to max level. A game a lot of people consider to have the best storytelling of any mmo. I realize that's not for everyone though.

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Originally Posted by Berethos

But it would be a lengthy post, and I'd rather only do that much typing (and fact checking old quests text, dialog, watching cutscenes, etc) if someone actually wants me to.

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I want you to. If only because I want one location to read "The Chronicles of Eorzea" for when I when I have lore questions. Make sure to include an easy to use appendix at the end of it!

I thought the story was long and sometimes boring when I first played through it. I was playing with a friend, didn't bother to read side quests, and even the main quests got read quickly with a lot of distractions (chatting between friends). I recently replayed the game with an alt, reading every single quest including the side quests. I watched every cutscene and really took my time. I have to say, I'm glad I did, because it's a really strong world they've built. Funny thing is, the 50 storyline went so much faster when I actually paid attention instead of just teleporting from place to place and clicking through all that text.

I do agree that the 50 quests seem long and annoying when all you want to do is get into HW areas and actually progress your character again, but in my case it wasn't because the story was bad, it was due to my own impatience and high expectations of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

ou know what would have maybe made me or others care about Minfillia more? If every mission, even ones that didn't involve you meeting her, you have her in her office or somewhere else and she could have had some flavor text. Things on her mind, small conversation, anything really that could have fleshed her out, make her any bit more interesting other than what flimsy personality they showed off during missions. Same as anyone. Maybe my standards are just too damn high, but I want characters that actually look and feel alive. That's why I've said it's gotten better with HW. Because even after missions you'll find characters around in that moment where you can get some dialogue. It's certainly added much for Thancred; thus far he's the one that feels most alive. Alphinaud a bit better, but most of his still ends up focusing on the where the task leaves off.

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She does. You have plenty of story bits where it's essentially you and her talking as friends. People dislike Minfillia because she slips into being the damsel you have to rescue far too often. I didn't mind her, personally, but having Alphinaud, Yuguri and Estinien around; actively participating in the immediate story arc, really showed how distant Minfillia can feel. Which, in turn, makes it less engaging when she needs you for something. The abundance of fetch quests didn't help, though I'll have to disagree with anyone saying the story didn't connect.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Big text

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Ha true.
That's why for me, Hildibrand and Cie + characters from class/jobs quest (+Haurchefant, Raubahn) are more interesting than most of the main characters.
If i have to remember something epic about this game, it would be maybe Hildibrand quests.

I am hoping for alot less fetch quest and more go kill this or defend this or attack this quests.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Hmmm...and after this comment, I'm reminded what an intolerant bunch of people play this game. Note the phrase "play this game" It's a game that we play, you know fun and games, playing for fun, etc... It's not a job or a sport, it's a game, meant to be enjoyed for fun. If you personally lack the patience to deal with others who are not up to your pro-bro standards, then make a premade, and stay away from DF/DR. Complaints like yours display little more than your own intolerance.

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The thing is you're not playing on your own.Your actions have an impact on others experiences.
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I personally do not enjoy carrying people that don't do anything.I do not like the thought of them getting rewarded for doing almost nothing.
DPS and Tanks have to make up for your not dpsing.

You are meant to dps.Don't tell me otherwise.This game wants Healers to dps otherwise you wouldn't have specific stanced or damage skills.If the game really wanted you to heal then mobs would deal way more damage

Again: I don't want to attack anybody.Just sharing my POV again.

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Originally Posted by Eifahlwyn

Different strokes for different folks. There are several other mmos out there that will happily thrust you into "end game" progression and raids without any pesky story or gated content getting in your way. However a lot of people in FF14 are here for the story and the side activities along with the simple fact it is Final Fantasy. I always appreciate hearing different views but based on what you have said I'm not sure this mmo is for you.

One final point... a core foundation of the mmo genre is time>everything else. In other words people who invest the time can and will get more than those who don't. It's only been in recent years, largely because of the direction of WoW, that people feel the time advantage should be removed and replaced solely with "skill". Furthermore, you can say this game hands you everything on a platter but that is blatantly false. There are tons of other MMOs out there that will literally hand you raid ready gear for zero effort but in FF14 you absolutely have to make a time investment to get gear, earn money, unlock content and rank up in side activities

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I got from 120 to 200 in 3 days.It wasn't hard.All it took was spamming Aetherochemical research facility.That dungeon is not hard and getting i200 gear doesn't really take long as well.
I ran hullbreaker isle hm 3 times and got a total of 5 or 6 i115 pieces out of it.
Again that didn't take long and Hullbreaker Isle isn't hard.
You can get i115 gear extremely easily and fast.
i130 takes long because of the weekly cap but it isn't hard to get to it either.Hullbreaker Isle HM rewards you with 40 tomes of lore.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

She does. You have plenty of story bits where it's essentially you and her talking as friends. People dislike Minfillia because she slips into being the damsel you have to rescue far too often. I didn't mind her, personally, but having Alphinaud, Yuguri and Estinien around; actively participating in the immediate story arc, really showed how distant Minfillia can feel. Which, in turn, makes it less engaging when she needs you for something. The abundance of fetch quests didn't help, though I'll have to disagree with anyone saying the story didn't connect.

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SHE'S NOT MY FRIEND. I barely know her, she doesn't know anything about me and I barely know anything about her.I'm just her slave.I'm the Warrior of light so I should do all the work.She even wanted me to speak to her mother because she felt it was wrong.If we were real friends the Hero of light would have told her that she should do that herself.
The hero of light just nods and does whatever people want him/her to do.

SE is rushing this whole friendship thing.What makes me friends with minfillia?She's more my employer than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

The thing is you're not playing on your own.Your actions have an impact on others experiences.
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I personally do not enjoy carrying people that don't do anything.I do not like the thought of them getting rewarded for doing almost nothing.
DPS and Tanks have to make up for your not dpsing.

You are meant to dps.Don't tell me otherwise.This game wants Healers to dps otherwise you wouldn't have specific stanced or damage skills.If the game really wanted you to heal then mobs would deal way more damage

Again: I don't want to attack anybody.Just sharing my POV again.

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Healers are not meant to DPS. Their ability to change stance is so they can solo when they are not in dungeons. Their main job to hell and keep the party alive. Now if their is a moment where they can DPS in a dungeon to help then that's great. But their main focus should always be on healing no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Blackcanary

Healers are not meant to DPS. Their ability to change stance is so they can solo when they are not in dungeons. Their main job to hell and keep the party alive. Now if their is a moment where they can DPS in a dungeon to help then that's great. But their main focus should always be on healing no matter what.

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Then how is it that healers can afk for half the dungeon?
Healers have to do almost nothing unless you're AoEing.

SE's biggest mistake is calling them "Healers" when all they are are DPS that just so happen to be able to heal.

Let me tell you something about my playstyle.I'm a DRK.
Once I've established aggro and made sure its stabilized I drop grit and go full DPS.Why?Because the Healers don't have any problems keeping up with the extra damage I take and because I generate enough aggro to not lose aggro.
Everybody thinks it's great when I do that.

I just recently had a dc during the opening cutscene of a dungeon.By the time my internet came back the party was already standing infront of the first boss.They didn't mind me having a dc.

Sure it's a bit different in "hardcore" content but when you're playing that kind of content you generally are that kind of person that wants to min max so somebody who's doing nothing is wasted potential.

Do you want to know when people start flaming me?
When I keep grit on and use my aggro rotation every 10 seconds.Why are they flaming me?I though I was a tank.Everything I'm supposed to do is soak up the damage, aren't I?

Wrong.

This game only consists of DPS.Some have more survivability than others.Those are called "Tanks".
Others have some healing spells, those are called "Healers".

This is enforced by the fact that even DPS can tank pretty ok.Most healers wouldn't mind it. *cough* nin tank *cough*

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

The thing is you're not playing on your own.Your actions have an impact on others experiences.

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That cuts both ways. If you have a problem with people who take a more casual approach or are not as 'skilled' as you are, then you have the option of pre-made parties. If you insist on using DF, you have to accept that you will get many different kinds of player, in the end, you are impacting those other players every bit as much as they impact you.

P.S. Healers are *not* meant to DPS. That is at best a tertiary role for healers. Even the hall of novices makes it clear in the healer exercised that you only throw in offense when there is time to spare and no danger. At the end of the day, I would rather my healer was not DPSing if it is the difference between them healing me at a critical point, or being OOMP. A healer who is OOMP because some DD was demandding they do damage is no longer a healer, and their tank is toast.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

Then how is it that healers can afk for half the dungeon?
Healers have to do almost nothing unless you're AoEing.

SE's biggest mistake is calling them "Healers" when all they are are DPS that just so happen to be able to heal.

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I'd love to know which dungeons you are doing where a healer can afk for half a dungeon, I'm aware you're over-exaggerating but come on you're being ridiculous.

They are healers at the end of the day, without them in ilevel relevant or synced content 9 times out of 10 you will be dead.

How much the healer ultimately does in a dungeon run doesn't just depend on them but the competency and quality of their party members and the teamwork displayed throughout the run.

Sometimes you'll have room to dps a lot, sometimes you'll have to heal more than usual and sometimes you'll have an even balance.

Now the healers who stand there when the party is hovering above 75% hp and their health is either dropping really gradually or there is no immediate danger of them all falling really low then yes a healer should be contributing to the dps effort and there is no reason for them not to unless they are being lazy.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That cuts both ways. If you have a problem with people who take a more casual approach or are not as 'skilled' as you are, then you have the option of pre-made parties. If you insist on using DF, you have to accept that you will get many different kinds of player, in the end, you are impacting those other players every bit as much as they impact youP.S. Healers are *not* meant to DPS. That is at best a tertiary role for healers. Even the hall of novices makes it clear in the healer exercised that you only throw in offense when there is time to spare and no danger. At the end of the day, I would rather my healer was not DPSing if it is the difference between them healing me at a critical point, or being OOMP. A healer who is OOMP because some DD was demandding they do damage is no longer a healer, and their tank is toast.

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When am I ever in danger of dying?Most of the time I'm at 100% health because the healer starts panicking when i lose 5% of health and instantly overheals me.It's not hard to keep the tank alive most of the time.
If you're running out of mana then you're doing something wrong.Several friends of mine play healer classes and they never are close to oom unless the AoE or I do one pull after the other without a second of being out of combat.

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Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I'd love to know which dungeons you are doing where a healer can afk for half a dungeon, I'm aware you're over-exaggerating but come on you're being ridiculous.

They are healers at the end of the day, without them in ilevel relevant or synced content 9 times out of 10 you will be dead.

How much the healer ultimately does in a dungeon run doesn't just depend on them but the competency and quality of their party members and the teamwork displayed throughout the run.

Sometimes you'll have room to dps a lot, sometimes you'll have to heal more than usual and sometimes you'll have an even balance.

Now the healers who stand there when the party is hovering above 75% hp and their health is either dropping really gradually or there is no immediate danger of them all falling really low then yes a healer should be contributing to the dps effort and there is no reason for them not to unless they are being lazy.

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I'm not demanding that Healers should DPS when the tank is having a hard time staying alive.I'm talking about that kind of content that doesn't almost kill you.It doesn't take skill to heal and deal damage at the same time in those situations.

Your argument about me dying without them doesn't make sense.Of course I'd die with them so what?
Imagine I had godmode and all I did was aggro the mobs.I wouldn't deal any damage, just aggro the mobs.
The party would need me but still I wouldn't contribute much to the party itself.
I would be getting rewarded for doing basically nothing.

If you have your hands full healing then it's okay not to dps.Almost nobody is demanding that.What people are demanding is you attacking when you have nothing else to do.Why do a lot of healers have a problem with letting the tank fall below 100% health?Your job is to keep me alive, not to keep me at 100% all the time.
I don't even really watch my hp while tanking so I wouldn't even notice.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

-snip

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The way you are wording your argument was literally you implying that there are no healer's in this game and that everyone is a glorified DPS.

^How is this not a ludicrous statement to make? the holy trinity is in full force with this game.

Which is why I responded the way I did.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

When am I ever in danger of dying?Most of the time I'm at 100% health because the healer starts panicking when i lose 5% of health and instantly overheals me.It's not hard to keep the tank alive most of the time.
If you're running out of mana then you're doing something wrong.Several friends of mine play healer classes and they never are close to oom unless the AoE or I do one pull after the other without a second of being out of combat.

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Well, let's see now. Over leveled and over geared characters are much more able to ignore the limitations and boundaries of their roles. However in level appropriate gear without the advantages of insane power-creep, you'll find it's quite possible for a healer to go OOMP because they were holy spamming. Your argument depends entirely on the players in question being over leveled, over geared and therefore over powered for the content.

I'll quote myself here

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

I'm not demanding that Healers should DPS when the tank is having a hard time staying alive.I'm talking about that kind of content that doesn't almost kill you.It doesn't take skill to heal and deal damage at the same time in those situations.

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Having to heal much?Yeah heal.Nothing wrong with that.
Just standing around for more than 3 seconds doing nothing?DPS.Even if shit hits the fan, tanks have an oh shit button they can press.That button gives the healer more than enough time to react, especially when paired with a macro that lets the healer know in the party chat.

Either I've posted what I'm gonna say a page before or the forum didn't save my edit:
This "There are no healers" "healers don't have a hard time healing" stuff surely is different in certain end game content such as raids.I'm talking about casual content though and I have yet to see a healer be oom in a normal dungeon run.I

I... actually have to agree with Exidrial here. I've seen healers that can push DPS just as high as most normal playing DPS. It's a little ridiculous.

And all too often, when I'm WARing, I'm mostly thinking "DPS, DPS, DPS" instead of "holding aggro". As for when I DRK, funny thing... I still keep Grit on, but I never go down in aggro when I'm doing my DPS combo in Grit. And I still pull relative high numbers...

Only problem I have with DPS is in PLD... Cause aggroing is still a problem with PLD for me. I thought I was doing an okay opener, but I'm still getting crap numbers as one... It's dumb to me. Then again, PLD's are supposed to be a wall, but whatever...

Regarding healer dps, I think if you have the chance to do it you must do it, sitting a tank at full heal doesnt do any good, of course if you are expecting a tank buster then then top him, but in dungeons? theres no really any danger on regular pulls. I recently leveled my WHM to 60, and really is not hard to trow a stoneskin a regen even assylum go cleric swiftcast Holy Assize Aero 3 turn cleric off heal as necesarry repeat, it only takes around 6 secs to do it all. Also I have a BRD and it relly hurts me when I got no Caster Dps and my healer doesnt DPS at all, it makes my FOE's ussseles, A healer who doesnt dps dont need Ballad either they got more than enough mana for it.

Also from my experience in the expert roullete is absurd dont too, once our healer dc in betwen bosses, we cleared perfectly fine up to the second boss, other time we got an amazing healer that dps just fine while keeping us alive we finished the dungeon around 25 min contrary all the times that takes 30+min

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Originally Posted by NaesakiAshwell

I'd love to know which dungeons you are doing where a healer can afk for half a dungeon, I'm aware you're over-exaggerating but come on you're being ridiculous.

They are healers at the end of the day, without them in ilevel relevant or synced content 9 times out of 10 you will be dead.

How much the healer ultimately does in a dungeon run doesn't just depend on them but the competency and quality of their party members and the teamwork displayed throughout the run.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Well, let's see now. Over leveled and over geared characters are much more able to ignore the limitations and boundaries of their roles. However in level appropriate gear without the advantages of insane power-creep, you'll find it's quite possible for a healer to go OOMP because they were holy spamming. Your argument depends entirely on the players in question being over leveled, over geared and therefore over powered for the content.

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I'm just gonna leave this here. It's me doing an expert dungeon with far less than minimum item level (ilevel 64, healing magic potency was roughly halved and MP greatly reduced). I have no video of it but since I did the experiment with both AST and WHM I'm quite confident I could do it successfully another time on demand. I checked the tank's gear on one of the runs, he had only freely farmable gear on the left side. Going to have to side with Exidrial here. If it's possible to heal full time with half the spell power, it's possible to heal half the time with full spell power (all gear equipped). Team quality matters though.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Yup, it is indeed sad. Here is my second experiment after trying LCoA with WHM i76. I removed as much as I could without raising suspicion.

http://i.imgur.com/5aryACM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZiumHtP.jpg

No danger whatsoever even with my 8k HP. I only had to heal a bit more and using cooldowns gave me room to dps.

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I do agree in som part but ur "yah whatever" parts. Ur point of view sucks.