Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

We'll see what happens in a year or two down the road when the formula causes everyone who is dedicated to the game to burn out. The Devs will continually focus on superficial content, and pay even less attention to the already lacking dungeons, 24 man raids, 8 man's, side content etc... When they finally stop caring whatsoever about challenging content and the vast majority of the playerbase is gifted everything on a silver platter, and the playerbase dwindles due to lack of rewarding and meaningful content like the decline of WoW, then maybe people will think back and say, oh maybe glamour and housing wasn't all that mattered.

This being said I don't want to argue, I'm just asking for more content, not to take away from others. Done posting. Have fun

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

I thought they were saying if you're bored, might be time for a break. That is true of most games and not telling someone what to do.

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Yes but most who do take a break never comes back. Keep in mind I raided with same guy for over 1 year and half and hes been in my fc for over 2 years. He quit the same day 3.3 patch notes comes out, said he might be back for 3.4 which I highly doubt, because it's the same thing all over again. From business perspective, they should also work on things to keep the remaining playerbase as well. I've had people who bought the game and hit max lvl then quit 1 week after because of how it is. You see, not everyone finds it amusing or fun sitting in limsa do emotes. Like the other guy wrote, 5% playerbase can beat certain content. I dont care if people wants to do roleplaying or simply use the game as a chat app, I respect them, however which I said many (can tell from people in here) kinda start attacking OP for having his opinion on end game. .So instead of saying op should quit or take a break, maybe put yourself in his shoes and try to understand? I know why people RP and I can somewhat understand, but RP for me was never a thing for me. I was excited when the japanese outfits came to NA market through amazon recently until many people just abused the system. Some people just seem to be selfish. Did many of those 5% (that some guy in here mentioned) whine about the gear coming out or not? Nope, because it wouldn't matter for them, why does it matter if square enix pulls more time into more end game content? You guys got your slice of the pizza, for once, stop being selfish. And even when most in the game wanted the buttler outfit many abused it, so GG. Ps I'm not saying you are one of those people, but I mentioned people from those 95% playerbase. So don't think this post is completely againt's you! :)

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I do agree with constructive criticism though. Most people in customer related fields thrive on it since you gotta know what you are and aren't doing to make people satisfied.

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I get you and I understand sometimes a break is good for some people, but keep in mind, the game has ran the same formula for nearly 4 years. Do you honestly many who come back from a ''break''? A few does, many doesn't. Do I honestly want to play this game when new expension comes out with the same formula? Nope. I've giving SE many chances and only sticking out because some of the latest patches was decent and I had my share of fun, however it is getting boring with the same formula. For you it might not make any difference, asuming you don't do end game so often (correct me if I'm wrong please!), doesn't mean it should be fine to keep this game end game free or suddenly turn into some e-wife simulator that some people already pretend it is.

I was going to make a long post, but I got annoyed half way.

> XI's foundation is much more than XIV. That was my point.
> I get the market changes. But players can also adapt. They're not beyond that.
> Never said anything about gating. Only that things can be learned with challenged content. It doesn't need to be faceroll. See above point.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Snip

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I see what you're doing. "What you find enjoyable is not the same as someone elses" argument. No. Please. Not even what I'm trying to get at.

How is X thing any different from X thing in XIV? The Journey was much more memorable. Why? Because it was a struggle. Hardship. Is there a struggle in this game? Actually yes, but ironically, it's not a rewarding struggle. It's just an annoying one if that makes sense.

The issue with horizontal progression is that it feels precisely like stagnation, at least to me. You aren't getting stronger. You aren't getting tougher. You're just kinda hanging around power level x with nearly imperceptible movement northward or southward, at least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Now this is just not true at all. Yes, the gear did get replaced, but the better your gear was at the end of 2.55 the longer it took for a replacement to come up.

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right, but there was no point of gearing up in the first place. All your money wasted on materia/crafting material was pointless because all I had to do is wait for the lvl to increase to 51. I didn't have to spend Gil or time working for those nice glamor items. the lvl 51+ gear was enough to make anything you wanted in 2.55. So i can stop playing now and come back at lvl 61 and not miss out on anything because lvl 61 crafting gear will be better than lvl 60 ilvl xxx crafting gear. crafting gear will be handed out like candy in the story quest and sell on the market board/NPC for cheap just like during 3.0 release.

That 2.55 gear may last to lvl 56 or so, but all i did was craft up the lvl latter to 60 with zero effort.

If 2.55 gear was required in order to make lvl 51 gear then i would have spent all that time working hard, but i didn't have to. Hence the next tomestones will replace lore and i can stop playing. If we were required to have a full set of lore gear before stepping in 3.3 dungeon than it would be worth gearing up for. This games life depends on patches filled with new stuff and not fun. The fun ends when you hit the top and grinding is not required to continue to the next patch

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

The issue with horizontal progression is that it feels precisely like stagnation, at least to me. You aren't getting stronger. You aren't getting tougher. You're just kinda hanging around power level x with nearly imperceptible movement northward or southward, at least in my opinion.

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That's a good point and maybe purely horizontal progression isn't what the game needs, but I would argue that the vertical progression that we have now also results in stagnation. We are getting tougher, but not in any meaningful way. A patch roles out that gives us gear with 20 more strength on it, but that same patch's content has monsters with 20 more defense and 2000 more health. The numbers are getting larger, but nothing about us really changes. While a more horizontal system wouldn't increase the numbers it would give us gear that adjusts our abilities or gives new abilities, grants passive traits, or even just has more interesting and complex stats. That to me would seem like less stagnation than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

That's a good point and maybe purely horizontal progression isn't what the game needs, but I would argue that the vertical progression that we have now also results in stagnation. We are getting tougher, but not in any meaningful way. A patch roles out that gives us gear with 20 more strength on it, but that same patch's content has monsters with 20 more defense and 2000 more health. The numbers are getting larger, but nothing about us really changes. While a more horizontal system wouldn't increase the numbers it would give us gear that adjusts our abilities or gives new abilities, grants passive traits, or even just has more interesting and complex stats. That to me would seem like less stagnation than what we have now.

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It sells really well but it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny imho.

Yes there will be choice but that is only until someone does some number crunching and all of that choice is gone, it's just an illusion of choice like skill trees are. I would prefer things not be overhauled for what will end up being a pointless exercise... I'm not even touching on the massive balance issues that tend to occur frequently with such a system.

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Originally Posted by Fricca

Good job forums for showing further proof on how a chunk of people are getting alienated. There was no need to turn this into an argument. More content is more content. You can't say do other stuff to enjoy the game more when all we're hearing are Devs spending "a lot of time" on 3 different sleep poses and housing when we've spent so much time subbed and waiting on new content that we can actually appreciate. Yea more housing, glamour, and poses are cool, but now what? If we don't like where the game is we quit, is basically what you're saying.

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If stating basic common sense like taking a break from a MMO when burned out is alienating you then you are doing it to yourself tbh.

Everybody should take a break from any MMO they are playing if they are finding themselves suffering from burnout... It's a game not a job... Hell even in jobs you take time off.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

I was going to make a long post, but I got annoyed half way.

> XI's foundation is much more than XIV. That was my point.
> I get the market changes. But players can also adapt. They're not beyond that.
> Never said anything about gating. Only that things can be learned with challenged content. It doesn't need to be faceroll. See above point.



I see what you're doing. "What you find enjoyable is not the same as someone elses" argument. No. Please. Not even what I'm trying to get at.

How is X thing any different from X thing in XIV? The Journey was much more memorable. Why? Because it was a struggle. Hardship. Is there a struggle in this game? Actually yes, but ironically, it's not a rewarding struggle. It's just an annoying one if that makes sense.

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Evidently, you don't, because your post literally demands people adapt to how you want the game to be played. If the market changes, why in the world would games stubbornly stick to old formulas that no longer garner interest? That's financial suicide. Wildstar attempted that and will likely shut down by the year's end because of it.

The journey was more memorable to you. I, on the other hand, find a year or two long "journey" for a weapon upgrade mind numbingly boring. No amount of flavor text will make grind quests appealing. FFXIV's closest example would be doing Beast Tribe dailies for the ilvl 210 Anima step. Those are not fun. Instead, I have increased desire to burn down the Sylph forest every time Boars Wars rolls up. Sure, the actual quests with the tribe leaders is cute, but all those little quests you do to build reputation? Boring. I'm not alone in this mindset either considering the majority of players don't even touch the harder content, let alone care about the Anima weapon or stuff like it. Hence why I reiterate this game simply may not be for you long term.

This doesn't even touch another significant issue with horizontal progression. If the best gear is gated behind this "struggle," then anyone wanting to get into raid content will now have to do it. Most won't nowadays, which is why you don't see games like FFXI or Vanilla WoW anymore.

That is a valid view point, but I see it as us finding stronger and tougher enemies to prevail against, rather than everything just kinda lurking at the same values.

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Originally Posted by Caelum_Dragguell

On another note it's gotten so bad as to make me play FFXI as I view it to have way more depth than FFXIV in its current state. For those who have played FFXI I'm sure many of you understand how I'm feeling at this stage and I hope you will help the development team see they need a change

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No I don't understand how you feel and yes I played FFXI for 11/12 years. I feel in the amount of time I play 14 and I put in a lot of hours I get way more done. No shouting for partys or shouting to build partys for hours. I think I actually spent more time on there shouting for stuff than actually getting stuff done.

I sort of miss haste etc on gear and buffs to abilities, but then I remember how I had multiple gear sets. The main thing I miss is having more open world stuff and since doing Aquapolis that has sort of appeased me for now. Hopefully Diadem will get some love and Deep Dungeon proves successful I will be happy.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I kinda get where you're coming from when I consider running Mhach City 15 times has not rewarded me with a caster body drop even once. 30 hours of my life wasted with no reward. And it's my second week in and it still hasn't dropped.

I must agree though that we need more then these cookie cutter stats that only buff your main attack stat or have very menial reduction on the GCD.

Don't even have stats to buff up your defense more.

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Nah on FFXi u spent 1-2 years to get a red mage hat to drop to you. Each run taking a few hours to complete so 30 hours for an item in here is fine with me lol

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

start attacking OP for having his opinion on end game.

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Nobody has "attacked" the OP. We simply have different opinions and are asserting our own reasons for them. He presented an idea which not everyone is going to agree with. Instead of engaging in the debate, I've mostly seen replies that essentially boil down to "well, if they don't implement my idea, then the game will die."

And that's silly.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Evidently, you don't, because your post literally demands people adapt to how you want the game to be played. If the market changes, why in the world would games stubbornly stick to old formulas that no longer garner interest? That's financial suicide. Wildstar attempted that and will likely shut down by the year's end because of it.

The journey was more memorable to you. I, on the other hand, find a year or two long "journey" for a weapon upgrade mind numbingly boring. No amount of flavor text will make grind quests appealing. FFXIV's closest example would be doing Beast Tribe dailies for the ilvl 210 Anima step. Those are not fun. Instead, I have increased desire to burn down the Sylph forest every time Boars Wars rolls up. Sure, the actual quests with the tribe leaders is cute, but all those little quests you do to build reputation? Boring. I'm not alone in this mindset considering the majority audience doesn't even touch the harder content, let alone cares about the Anima weapon or stuff like it. Hence why I reiterate this game simply may not be for you long term.

This doesn't even touch another significant issue with horizontal progression. If the best gear is gated behind this "struggle," then anyone wanting to get into raid content will now have to do it. Most won't nowadays, which is why you don't see games like FFXI or Vanilla WoW anymore.

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How predictable. I mean, I could flip that and say the same thing on the other end of the spectrum right? Just shut up and color because it sells? Pretty sure keeping both parties happy is better than losing a portion of the population.

I don't understand why you keep choosing to allude to Dynamis Relic. In truth, it didn't even take that long. It all depended on how much support you had behind you. But..Given how you worded it, it just sounds like -to me- that you didn't really experience that first hand. But that's just observation speaking based on your preferences. The difference between XIV and XI's conquest of relics(since this is your constant reference) is one will actually matter in the long run over the other. The journey, as you say, may differ to others...But at least one won't make you feel like you actually wasted time versus the other. Ah, but that's just my opinion of course.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Isn't that entirely so people could practice rotations in a way that both allows you to learn them while giving you a goal towards pushing for? I am thinking the correct thing, right? Are you saying everyone should only learn rotations against end-game things where, depending on the fight, you can't learn it on the fly?



Now this is just not true at all. Yes, the gear did get replaced, but the better your gear was at the end of 2.55 the longer it took for a replacement to come up.

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I didn't replace my right side till level 60 I used them to level all crafts. I dont even think i started really upgrading armour till 54-55 but I cant remember. I do know it was only tools main and body though.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Nobody has "attacked" the OP. We simply have different opinions and are asserting our own reasons for them. He presented an idea which not everyone is going to agree with. Instead of engaging in the debate, I've mostly seen replies that essentially boil down to "well, if they don't implement my idea, then the game will die."

And that's silly.

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Well yah okay, true. However, how long have the game been out and tell how long the current formula have lasted. This isn't something we are only aware of, also yoshida. TBH, square playing either safe card or simply not willing to give yoshida enough resources he desveres, which sucks for this game.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

How predictable. I mean, I could flip that and say the same thing on the other end of the spectrum right? Just shut up and color because it sells? Pretty sure keeping both parties happy is better than losing a portion of the population.

I don't understand why you keep choosing to allude to Dynamis Relic. In truth, it didn't even take that long. It all depended on how much support you had behind you. But..Given how you worded it, it just sounds like -to me- that you didn't really experience that first hand. But that's just observation speaking based on your preferences. The difference between XIV and XI's conquest of relics(since this is your constant reference) is one will actually matter in the long run over the other. The journey, as you say, may differ to others...But at least one won't make you feel like you actually wasted time versus the other. Ah, but that's just my opinion of course.

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You could. But then your argument hinges on 95% of the playerbase "adapting" to what maybe 5% wants. Spoilers: they won't. Keeping both parties happy only stretches so far. You eventually have to consider what part of your audience is more financially viable. FFXIV is a game where the majority don't care about hardcore progression content. Catering towards those who do will inevitably drive the others away. And that will cripple your game.

Admittedly, I haven't. FFXI didn't keep my interest long due to its grind heavy nature. I, however, do know plenty of people who have done the prolonged relic quests and don't look back on them fondly. I have also done similar stuff in other games-- with the same result. Either way, all of this is irrelevant because you're still assuming FFXIV's audience will gravitate to what essentially would be FFXI-2. They won't because they are different games, with different audience preferences.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You could. But then your argument hinges on 95% of the playerbase "adapting" to what maybe 5% wants. Spoilers: they won't. Keeping both parties happy only stretches so far. You eventually have to consider what part of your audience is more financially viable. FFXIV is a game where the majority don't care about hardcore progression content. Catering towards those who do will inevitably drive the others away. And that will cripple your game.

Admittedly, I haven't. FFXI didn't keep my interest long due to its grind heavy nature. I, however, do know plenty of people who have done the prolonged relic quests and don't look back on them fondly. I have also done similar stuff in other games-- with the same result. Either way, all of this is irrelevant because you're still assuming FFXIV's audience will gravitate to what essentially would be FFXI-2. They won't because they are different games, with different audience preferences.

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I'm sure anyone, for example, would love to have their time and effort rewarded with longer lasting gear. Your Relic. From 2.0 having relevance in today's patch would be sung to high heavens. But instead, it's treated like trash and just used as silly stepping stone to "save time". That turned me away from this current relic because SE isn't about doing something new or making your gear long lasting. It would just be a waste of my time and effort. Look...That minority is actually trying to make the game better, but we're being ignored because it's not "financially better".

Even I can tell you that the majority will get bored eventually if they're being spoon fed the same formula for years to come. Playing "Safe" isn't going to work forever.

And I'm not saying the game should be a direct XI-2. I'm saying the game should just have more going for it. If you'd stop twisting my words, that too would be nice. I want Eorzea to feel more than a lifeless, pretty landscape. I want the community to interact more with each other. But this content that we have is not going to do it.

Attributes are so shallow that attribute distribution has only one answer with any job in any situation, it may aswell not exist in the game's current state as it just wastes peoples time adding points. Item level is the only stat that needs to be considered now, ilevel 230 gear or 220 gear? Go with the 230. The stat system has no quirks or anything interesting to get to grips with. Crafting is a massive commitment yet is always way behind in gear progression. There really needs to be more variety in high ilevel gear as opposed to one or two highest ilevel sets.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

right, but there was no point of gearing up in the first place. All your money wasted on materia/crafting material was pointless because all I had to do is wait for the lvl to increase to 51. I didn't have to spend Gil or time working for those nice glamor items. the lvl 51+ gear was enough to make anything you wanted in 2.55. So i can stop playing now and come back at lvl 61 and not miss out on anything because lvl 61 crafting gear will be better than lvl 60 ilvl xxx crafting gear. crafting gear will be handed out like candy in the story quest and sell on the market board/NPC for cheap just like during 3.0 release.

That 2.55 gear may last to lvl 56 or so, but all i did was craft up the lvl latter to 60 with zero effort.

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There was no point in gearing up...At what point? Are you saying the people who geared up to prepare the pentamelds for those who did Coils wasted their time? Should they have just waited for 3.0 to hit to make those items, because I know that there was no way to successfully make those items without properly geared jobs or insane luck. You're basing this idea off of "Since I know X years down the line it's worthless, I shouldn't bother" forgetting that the entirety of gearing up was built on top of what you were doing already.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

If stating basic common sense like taking a break from a MMO when burned out is alienating you then you are doing it to yourself tbh.

Everybody should take a break from any MMO they are playing if they are finding themselves suffering from burnout... It's a game not a job... Hell even in jobs you take time off.

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No.

Not liking where the game is progressing towards =/= being burnt out.

You completely missed my point.. There shouldn't be an argument. We're not depriving you of your fun nor preferred content, we just want more content that has depth and meaning for us if not for everyone. You know, memorable and fun ones, not face-roll ones. But right now it seems like a lot of people are dismissing it as "you guys just don't know how to have fun, there are other things you can do in this game to have fun". The Devs are already spending "a lot of time" (i just can't get over it when they said that on the live letter) on emotes and stuff so you pretty much got your slice of cake. Why not be open to other developments? Why tell us to quit the game instead? I don't think that's fair at all.

There is nothing worthwhile to work for in this game in terms of progression, the lackluster of economic drive is a prime example.

I liked the rare drop of the Mhach Coffin when it was 100mil+ as it was something that you could work for with excess gil and something you could appreciate when you had it.
What can you spend 100Mil on now? What is the point of earning gil?

Why do you gear? To raid? For more gear? There needs to be something special after the raiding, after your accumulation of attempts in something and striving.
Orchestration Rolls were a nice addition to the list of reasons you would venture into raids/ bosses.

E.G
Rare minions that are tradeable.
Rare recipes from bosses that are tradeable. --> This would work for crafting/combat synergy and promote either to work hand in hand.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

I'm sure anyone, for example, would love to have their time and effort rewarded with longer lasting gear. Your Relic. From 2.0 having relevance in today's patch would be sung to high heavens. But instead, it's treated like trash and just used as silly stepping stone to "save time". That turned me away from this current relic because SE isn't about doing something new or making your gear long lasting. It would just be a waste of my time and effort. Look...That minority is actually trying to make the game better, but we're being ignored because it's not "financially better".

Even I can tell you that the majority will get bored eventually if they're being spoon fed the same formula for years to come. Playing "Safe" isn't going to work forever.

And I'm not saying the game should be a direct XI-2. I'm saying the game should just have more going for it. If you'd stop twisting my words, that too would be nice. I want Eorzea to feel more than a lifeless, pretty landscape. I want the community to interact more with each other. But this content that we have is not going to do it.

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They really wouldn't. Why? Because it would necessitate at constant upgrade as new content became increasingly more difficult. Hardcore raiders want the best gear as fast as possible to get into Savage upon its first week of release. Being forced into a lengthily detour to improve their existing gear essentially gates them from the content they actually want to do. If you keep a static ilvl, then bosses pose less of a challenge as you're already equip to handle them from a damage perspective. You only need learn their mechanics.

No. You are projecting a system you subjectively believe better and simply telling the majority "you'll like it." No offense, but that comes across exceedingly arrogant. People like the current game as is, otherwise they wouldn't represent the overwhelming majority. Now that doesn't mean FFXIV is without fault, but also doesn't mean your overhaul will appeal to even a fraction of this audience. If they wanted to play FFXI, they would. Or seek out an equivalent styled game.

I have not twisted any of your words. They simply don't sound as good when held up to scrutiny. To you, Eorzea may feel empty. The majority don't feel the same way.

This thread so far: Because I don't like it, it shouldn't be there.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The majority don't feel the same way.

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Oh they do, trust me they do. It just doesn't feel empty to you because you sit in a spot doing RP. Everywhere else is empty.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No. You are projecting a system you subjectively believe better and simply telling the majority "you'll like it." No offense, but that comes across exceedingly arrogant. People like the current game as is, otherwise they wouldn't represent the overwhelming majority. Now that doesn't mean FFXIV is without fault, but also doesn't mean your overhaul will appeal to even a fraction of this audience. If they wanted to play FFXI, they would. Or seek out an equivalent styled game.

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I decided to check back up on my thread instead of leaving it be and I see someone who isn't even trying to see things from our perspective when we currently live in yours. Look in a mirror and see the arrogance. When someone is unwilling to try new things they die on the inside at some point, or never were really alive in the first place.
I only want the dev's to consider switching up the formula to make the game more interesting. Also to those saying I'm "Burned out". How is logging in day 1 of patch 3.3 and doing almost everything it has to offer in 1-2 days (like 8 hours maybe of playing) then being forced to stop due to lack of content being burnt out? You can't get burnt out if you're hardly playing.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

This thread so far: Because I don't like it, it shouldn't be there.


Oh they do, trust me they do. It just doesn't feel empty to you because you sit in a spot doing RP. Everywhere else is empty.

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*nods*

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They really wouldn't. Why? Because it would necessitate at constant upgrade as new content became increasingly more difficult. Hardcore raiders want the best gear as fast as possible to get into Savage upon its first week of release. Being forced into a lengthily detour to improve their existing gear essentially gates them from the content they actually want to do. If you keep a static ilvl, then bosses pose less of a challenge as you're already equip to handle them from a damage perspective. You only need learn their mechanics.


No. You are projecting a system you subjectively believe better and simply telling the majority "you'll like it." No offense, but that comes across exceedingly arrogant. People like the current game as is, otherwise they wouldn't represent the overwhelming majority. Now that doesn't mean FFXIV is without fault, but also doesn't mean your overhaul will appeal to even a fraction of this audience. If they wanted to play FFXI, they would. Or seek out an equivalent styled game.

I have not twisted any of your words. They simply don't sound as good when held up to scrutiny. To you, Eorzea may feel empty. The majority don't feel the same way.

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I don't even... Alright. Sure. No one likes gear lasting longer. You clearly understand. Sorry. I shouldn't have argued.

Again, this can be flipped. Careful not to walk into your own trap. Of course the path of least resistance is going to be the majority. That's human nature. And there are people that sought out XI(former XI). I already mentioned that, but I guess you ignored that already, yeh?

But you're saying that the minority doesn't matter because we're a smaller voice? That's cool. And you're calling me arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

This thread so far: Because I don't like it, it shouldn't be there.


Oh they do, trust me they do. It just doesn't feel empty to you because you sit in a spot doing RP. Everywhere else is empty.

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Based on? FFXIV is among the most successful SE titles ever released and literally saved the company from bankruptcy. It remains tops in active MMOs across the entire genre, yet everyone apparently thinks it's empty. Right. Funny thing is... Balmung's the most popular server in the game, but has a poor raid scene. Imagine that.

This is why I advise my static and my friends against using the forums...

The amount of completely idiotic responses from people in this thread is astounding. Someone asks for just a little depth and they:

• Want to be a special snowflake with content only they can do
• Should just fall in line with the dressup sim mentality of everyone else

However, unlike most people in here, I can talk about my ideas, why I think they would be good, and explain why we shouldn't jut be happy with more of the same all the time. First, as someone who has actually played Wildstar, I want to address some of the comments I've seen about it, and how it's actually a good example of other claims people are making being just not true. So, that game is dying. We all know this. Why is it dying? Well, if you try to claim it's any one thing, you're a moron. At release it was a buggy mess with hundreds of unaddressed problems remaining from the beta, painfully dull leveling and such a monstrous grind to get to endgame content with attunements alongside massive amounts of permanent character improvements you need to make or at least be well into the process of making that it turned a lot of people off. On top of that, PvP was a non-competitive mess arguably even worse than Wolves Den, they had a convoluted stat system and gear drops in raids that were far worse than crafted gear you might happen to be carrying with RNG layered on everything four times over, and on top of all that due to one little video rumors spread that there was no content for any player who didn't consider themselves hardcore despite that video only being about raids. While a lot of the content was difficult for sure, most of it was never as out of reach as the word-of-mouth implied it would be/was. For all thesse reasons, WIldstar flopped. A lot due to failures in marketing, but also due to some very real problems with the game's core functionality and the fact that even now there are still bugs in that game that people reported back in its beta says more about the dev team on it than some might realize. The game didn't die purely because no one could do the content, it died due to very poor marketing alongside a whole host of issues within the game that unhappy players were able to make accurate complaints about for literal years.

Okay, so what does Wildstar actually teach us about people's claims in here? Oh right, that the "if you're not 100% optimal no one will do anything with you" idea is completely false. Not that we even have to look that far, as I'm sure most of us who've raided can say we've run with some less-than-perfect players in our time but kept running with them because they were fun to have around and didn't hold us back to the level where replacement was necessary. But even in terms of having multiple possible builds for a class. In Wildstar, I ran a suboptimal build for many months. Even when new builds became possible that made my own more and more outdated, I kept using this build. How many complaint did I get? Zero. Why? Because the difference wasn't anywhere near the difference you'd see in, say, taking a BLM who uses their full level 60 rotation vs one who role plays an ice mage. And that's the key thing to having some horizontal progression in the game, as long as it's balanced even slightly well, the issues people keep suggesting as inevitable will not actually exist outside of applying for a group trying for server/world firsts. The fact that the dev team in XIV keeps claiming otherwise is infuriating, and frankly, an insult to the amazing community this game has built around it.

So how do you add this sort of thing, where we have interesting stats to play around with and other content outside of raids that means something? Well, the latter part is already on its way to being taken care of. Diadem/Exploration revamps could be coming as early as 3.4 to make that less mind-numbingly boring, and Deep Dungeon is another concept that, like Diadem, has a lot of potential in this regard. So there's the interesting non-raid content, but how do you make it worthwhile? Well, materia as a primary reward is a good start. Though 24-mans and Aquapolis already do a good job of providing standard materia. But, what if new materia were added to these kinds of content as a reward, materia that unlock set bonus effects that actually change how your job is played slightly? Or maybe something else? Maybe it could be something as simple as allowing extra stat allocation for completing the content on that job? Meaning you go in and fully clear Palace of the Dead or kill the highest ranked mob in the Diadem revamp, and it drops an item that increases your stat allocation for the job you're on when you use it from 35 to 37? A small thing that players would have to be insane to require from someone, but something that players can use to meaningfully progress their character outside of the current content options. This is the type of thing OP is looking for, and it's a strawman to claim otherwise. These things wouldn't alienate the casual playerbase nearly as much as most of you seem to think it would, wouldn't be very hard to implement development wise at the simplest end, and would give players other reasons to log in and look forward to it.

Moving forward on the more interesting stat issue, there's a reason it's important to start discussing this now. In a recent interview, Yoshi-p clearly said that the team is considering removing the accuracy stat due to a number of very obvious issues it has. While this wouldn't be happening any earlier than 4.0, it's important for us ass players to talk about as it means there's room for another stat to be added to gear as a standard secondary stat. What stat might they add? Well, in my opinion this is one place where it really is best to look at WoW. I speak of the Mastery stat, a stat that affects each class differently that exists on general gear, and has some sort of effect that may adjust how you play. I think a stat like this would be absolutely perfect for FFXIV, as it would solve the issue of gear being boring that many people complain about, and do so in a way that is accessible due to being a standard stat on gear. How would I have it work? Add new traits for it to affect on each job, such as a trait for DRG where the more mastery you have the less time using a Gierskogul removes from your Blood of the Dragon, or one for BLM where you have a very very small chance to proc Firestarter with a Fire IV, and with more of this stat that chance increases. And the ideas could continue flowing for each different job. In my opinion, if accuracy does get removed from the game in 4.0, this would be the ideal stat to replace it with.

And now, some ungodly number of words later, I've explained my entire position on this debate and given examples of how it could be fixed without alienating the casual playerbase like most people fear. Was that so hard?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Based on? FFXIV is among the most successful SE titles ever released and literally saved the company from bankruptcy. It remains tops in active MMOs across the entire genre, yet everyone apparently thinks it's empty. Right. Funny thing is... Balmung's the most popular server in the game, but has a poor raid scene. Imagine that.

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Okay...

So you like roleplaying, which is good for you. However I'm not into it but I have friends who are, so I respect their choice, however does that mean I should tell them not to enter a raid, primal or things like that based on what they do? Hell no. You see, most people who RP aren't into battle content for obvious reasons, so should I tell you to stop step in them because you will most likely wipe me?Hell no. You see, sitting in 1 spot all day isn't ''everywhere''. When people say ''everywhere'' they mean things to do outside your little RP box. You see there is much more than just pretending to be a cat. Hunts, raids, dungeons, story mode, crafting, the list can goes on. Now, the issue that OP brought up is, the game has patch every 3-4 months, which is either raid or catch up patches. These patches has things this game should had long time ago but they slowly adding them into each patch that comes out. So we look at content that ''actually matters'' Progression, because forst of all we aren't playing waifu simulator that some people pretend it is, MMO is a progression style game. You play to elvolve and progress, just like 99% of balmung players wanted that dress so badly, simply because it's a fashion thing. Sooner or later the hype is dead and you guys crave for something again.

I even read people been moaning about quitting their sub because they never released the gear for EU clients, which I do find funny because, holy shit if some people actually go that far for vanity lol. So if you look at it this way, many people and I talk many want's to progress and get better, much as you want vanity/glamour gear. Just because I disagree with you on some points doesn't mean I should cry on the forum that they shouldn't waste sources on things they could spend on something else. Look at golden saucer, full hype then flop. The minion battle? Full flop. None of these thing's actually has a meaning or progression to it. It's fine to have it there, no doubt but we seek more than this silly things that outdated soon. What about adding content that makes us progress?

Many in here talks about how old FFXI is. I know how old it is because it was my very first MMO and I was young when I played it. I know it has endless of content, but back before I quit it still had endless of content you would love to do everytime when you had the chance to. It was simply so much for me sometimes I just took a break from it and the feeling? Great because I knew once I log back on there is something that actually gives me progression. FF14 v2 has been out for nearly 4 years and been on the same formula since the beginning. For me I thought HW was gonna change things, in terms of raids, rewards and so on, but nope.

Ixal beast tribe = moogle. Alex = coil. Expert and random tomestone name = same capping, different name. 4 years!!!! When FFXI had expension pack back in 2006, or 2007, I forgot they added merit points, which made people adjust their skills, learn new ones and pick the ones you think would work great. Tons of new content and I talk about 2-3 new ways to raid on top of the old raid that still was relevant. You had city battles, where enemies attacked the cities and you had to defend. Alot of this stuff is missed and probably wanted by people who never touched FFXI.

You on the other hand saying limsa or housing area is everywhere is a bit stupid. In fact I see people in different places too, but news flash they mostlikely AFK waiting or simply just capping stuff then logs out.


Read about Yoshida talked about? Making people skip leveling up or story. When you hit the end there is almost nothing you can do besides raids. Last time I checked the subs went skyhigh after a patch then it went down a lot after a month or a few weeks even until next patch. Giving people max level and sit and RP all day isn't a solution, this is actually what makes people take ''breaks'' and never come back. Like I mentioned in this thread earlier, had a few guys playing the game, loving the story etc, once they hit max all they do is sit there and do nothing.

Last time I checked too, square enix have made a lot of failures and to be honest, I start to think they gonna make this game going to the wrong direction. Look at how awful FF13 was. Since it's kinda a trend square enix doing bad,no wonder people start to open their eyes and actually want to talk about these problems.

Anwyays... have fun sitting in limsa and think that everyone is going to do that, like I said, if you think paying 10 bucks a month is fine, so be it, but there are many people who pay the amount you and I do and expects more than just different sleep poses they spent 3 months on.

Too long to read:
Stop acting like this MMO is a waifu simulator/sim city, because it's not.

They're never going to make gear last longer because gear treadmills drive subs while everlasting gear gives people the feeling that they've "beat the game" once they have a fully optimized character and then they quit. Very few people care about adding "interesting stats" because most people realize that it all gets fed into a optimization simulator and the best build is found and enforced by the community anyway.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Yes there will be choice but that is only until someone does some number crunching and all of that choice is gone, it's just an illusion of choice like skill trees are. I would prefer things not be overhauled for what will end up being a pointless exercise... I'm not even touching on the massive balance issues that tend to occur frequently with such a system.

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Perfect balance is impossible to obtain, even FFXIV as it is now is not perfectly balanced nor even are the most competitive esports in the world. Since that level of balance isn't possible, I would say inbalance with interesting choices/complex stats is to be preferred to inbalance with no choices/boring stats. All that's needed is a fair margin.

Bleeding edge raiders would likely make their choices on number crunching, absolutely. That's the nature of their game, but the vast majority of players don't stress over performance like progression raiders do. We can see evidence of that looking at FFXIV's jobs, which is the one gameplay choice we do have. Some jobs outperform others, but all are played, because numbers aren't the only factor. Paladins were the worst tank for months after Heavensward launched but I still mained a pld because I enjoy the lore, it's design, it's style, over the other tanks who were more efficient at tanking. Bleeding edge raiders might have chosen not to bring a Paladin, but there are still a huge amount of paladin players. The same would happen if we could customize our gameplay even more.

I would argue that it's also possible to create interesting stats that are hard to quantity. If you had to choose between an ability that roots one monster for 15 seconds or an AoE that roots everything it hits for 5 seconds, which would be objectively better? Wouldn't they both excel in different situations that would change from encounter to encounter?

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

I don't even... Alright. Sure. No one likes gear lasting longer. You clearly understand. Sorry. I shouldn't have argued.

Again, this can be flipped. Careful not to walk into your own trap. Of course the path of least resistance is going to be the majority. That's human nature. And there are people that sought out XI(former XI). I already mentioned that, but I guess you ignored that already, yeh?

But you're saying that the minority doesn't matter because we're a smaller voice? That's cool. And you're calling me arrogant.

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Context. You completely ignored why I said what I did. It isn't "people don't like gear lasting longer," but what purpose does it serve? Those old relic weapons are only good if they immediately help clear new content upon its release. This can only be achieved in horizontal progression if ilvl remains static. This has the immediate drawback of restricting the difficulty of content because everyone will already be equipped to handle it. Say ilvl 240 remained our definitive gear level from 3.3 onward. Now no difficult can eclipse Brute Justice otherwise players won't have a means of upgrading. To the current raiding playerbase, this means the next stage of Savage would be significantly easier as they would only need to learn mechanics. Gear simply lasting longer doesn't accomplish anything. That's the point.

And? You keep saying it can be flipped, yet ignore the financial implications and any other compounding factors. SE didn't arbitrarily decide on the current system based on a whim. The MMO market shifted towards a more casual demographic due to demand of its audience. People simply aren't playing heavily grind oriented games like they did in the heydays of FFXI and Vanilla WoW.

Pragmatically speaking? Yes. That isn't arrogance, but the reality of business. When arguably 95% of your audience prefers a certain style of content, you would be foolish not catering towards them. I actually prefer games where I can die if I mess up, and would love to see harder dungeons. I'm the nut who wants to queue into content with a pre-made group of friends at the lowest ilvl we can get away with just for fun. It would be a blast if mobs hit hard enough that healers even thinking of DPSing results in a dead tank. I also know very few people feel the same way, thus why I don't expect SE to cater to that particular preference of mine. It doesn't make financial sense of them to do so. Which has been my point. People like the current game as is. You telling them "well, you'll adapt to what I like because it's better" is what I cited arrogant.

Tbh while I would enjoy some gear lasting a little bit longer I HATE the idea of a weapon lasting for years or so.

I feel I would get bored with just the same gear like that

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Originally Posted by Hix

They're never going to make gear last longer because gear treadmills drive subs while everlasting gear gives people the feeling that they've "beat the game" once they have a fully optimized character and then they quit. Very few people care about adding "interesting stats" because most people realize that it all gets fed into a optimization simulator and the best build is found and enforced by the community anyway.

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Try reading my explanation as to how you're entirely wrong on this and there's plenty of evidence showing otherwise.

P.S. Bourne has a point. If you think SE would rather change an entire system of the game to cater to a very small minority of the community rather than keeping the current system which the majority are fine with and/or enjoy, you are foolish.

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Originally Posted by Zari

P.S. Bourne has a point. If you think SE would rather change an entire system of the game to cater to a very small minority of the community rather than keeping the current system which the majority are fine with and/or enjoy, you are foolish.

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The thing is, as I explained, it's very easy to make changes that would both please people like OP to some degree and not only not alienate the casual playerbase, but also not take a whole lot of extra dev effort. In fact, they're even making room for a new stat anyway if they end up deciding to remove accuracy like Yoshi-p suggested they're considering at a recent interview.

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Originally Posted by Zari

Tbh while I would enjoy some gear lasting a little bit longer I HATE the idea of a weapon lasting for years or so.

I feel I would get bored with just the same gear like that

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The joy of a good horizontal system is that you wouldn't have just the one weapon to pick from, but perhaps dozens of different weapons that all played slightly different. One sword's auto attack might be a small AoE, another sword's attack might occasionally apply a dot to the enemy, another sword might funnel emnity from your party to yourself with each blow, another could have a small chance to summon a friendly Beastman to help you fight for 10 seconds every time you parry, etc. It wouldn't be one weapon that lasted, but a whole collection all with different strengths,

"The MMO market shifted towards a more casual demographic due to demand of its audience. People simply aren't playing heavily grind oriented games like they did in the heydays of FFXI and Vanilla WoW."

This is, unfortunately for some, absolutely correct. Some players do recall the months of slow grind. It wasn't complained about - because that was just the accepted way it was. People went into these games with a different approach to what appears to be the modern norm.

That previous mentality is still there - but in a far smaller percentage.
Now the nuts and bolts of running a modern multi-payer game - Make it popular for the main demographic - Then accommodate where possible others outside this.

Also can you guys shove off with trying to make excuses for someone not agreeing with you. "You just dont agree with me because you are a rper" is something Ive seen a couple times here, and although I, myself, am not a rper it really feels like you are trying to claw for reasons that someone else can, GASP, have a different opinion than you on the game!