Lol, "live and let live" is about tolerance and implies no harm is done between the parties involved. For example, you could not adopt a "murderer" lifestyle and expect people to be tolerant. In other words, it isn't "live and let live" if you "live to end life"Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
If the way you want to live actively and negatively impacts others, it isn't "live and let live".
Are you genuinely wanting ppl to tolerate you walking on them?
What can I do to stop this?
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05-31-2016, 05:58 AMwinsock
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05-31-2016, 08:56 AMJpec07Fixed that for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Do you always deflect this way when you're called on your egocentric views and actions? Calling people "white knights" who are making legitimate counterpoints does nothing to address the point itself, and is an ad hominem fallacy. Point being, you can't effectively counter an argument by calling the people who are making that argument "white knights" or "social justice bozos" (to be polite).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Now, you're suggesting that the system ought to define behavior, and the community shouldn't police itself some; am I getting that right? It's hard to read what you're actually saying when you layer it behind angst that people are telling you that you're contributing to the problem.
You cannot assume that your experiences are universal. While it may only be 15 minutes for you, there may be other circumstances that have lead to longer time lost for other players (say they're queueing specifically for ARF for the Eso bonus, or a specific dungeon in the 50 roulette because they want the gear for glamour - they're going to have a bad time simply because you decided that your desire to not do that dungeon is more important than their desire to do it). Furthermore, you're saying that your desire to drop will result in up to 15 minutes of waiting for those people if they decide to leave--three or seven other people who your selfishness has cost fifteen minutes. It adds up. If efficiency really is the name of the game (as you claim), then leaving a dungeon at the outset is arbitrarily introducing inefficiency to their gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
But why should you care? They're not you.
Nice Strawman, there, with a slight bit of argumentum ad absurdum. You're really giving a great showcase of logical fallacies. I should show this to my high school debate teacher, because he'd get a kick out of it. There's a large difference between arguing on a forum for how things should be and how players ought to behave and being an asshole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
But there is one point I must address; the Mentor Roulette EXISTS SO YOU, WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE, CAN HELP THOSE WHO DO NOT. That was the goal of the whole mentor system. And you're arguing that, because the system doesn't do enough to discourage quitting, you should not follow through on what was the original goal and live up to that "mentor" status, and should ruin the experience of new players. You should enter that roulette to help people, and when you can't be bothered to do that, you might as well not even queue.
Way to try and make yourself look good, there. If only you hadn't argued in favor of piss-poor player behavior and crappy, selfish attitudes, it might be believable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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05-31-2016, 09:09 AMLaraulI can't say tanks spontaneously drop anymore than any other class when playing, and a player actually abandoning a dungeon is rather rare. Maybe occasionally during an Aurum Vale run. 10 tankless runs in two days? I don't buy it. Not single tank joined mid run during run of those ten times either? Sounds highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zolvolt
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05-31-2016, 10:24 AMBrian_No, what I am saying is quite clear. What you are saying is that we should all be vigilantes and impose individual "justice" in place of actual laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by winsock
Using your example, I am saying that if a murder is committed, the murderer still has their rights to a fair trial, fair punishment, and fair treatment under the law. I don't get to personally decide what the proper punishment is due to my own pettiness and vindictiveness.
So, if you want to leave a roulette, go ahead. We all play by the same rules and the system will punish you according to the rules. It's not my job to punish or judge you according to what I view as appropriate or inappropriate behavior. -
05-31-2016, 10:42 AMBrian_To you I only have a single response because your post just reeks of blindness and a severe lack of perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
PLD was my first (and still preferred) job. I cleared all of Coil on PLD and mained it until mid-way through the Gordias raid cycle. My first ARR relic was on PLD.
Despite all that, I no longer queue for any dungeon using PLD. Why? Because through thousands of dungeon runs worth of experience, I realized that doing the same dungeon on WAR consistently shortened the run by 2-3 minutes. This is despite the same DPS optimization and gear.
So, according to your logic, nobody should ever play PLD in a dungeon. If you only have PLD leveled, you should just not queue for dungeons. You're wasting everyone's time due to a personal insistence. It adds up. If efficiency really is the name of the game (as I claim), then playing PLD is arbitrarily introducing inefficiency to your gameplay.
But why should I care? The point is I don't care. You are not me. You are not forced to abide by my own approach to the game. You can do whatever you want within your individual rights and I will do likewise. That is the point. If I disagree with you, I will express it using my individual rights and won't instead impose my opinions on your free will. -
05-31-2016, 10:49 AMViolette
God i hate mentor roulette first timers, they might need some help and that annoys the shit out of me.
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05-31-2016, 11:13 AMBrian_I didn't address this point because I felt it was asinine and people clearly didn't read this line in my first post --Quote:
Originally Posted by Violette
But, I'll address it anyway because this passive aggressive pussyfooting is quite annoying. I have no problem helping people. I probably spend more time in Savage helper runs or Sephirot learning parties (even at this late juncture) than most people here even spend in the content overall. But, I explicitly said what I did in regards to groups that really can't clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
So some people here -- probably for lack of actual experience -- have said that the Mentor Roulette's bonus is given so that people stay and help. You do realize that if you don't clear the duty, you don't get the bonus, right? As someone who has actually queued into Ramuh EX multiple times through Mentor Roulette and sat through a lock-out worth of wiping, I would say the system hardly does what some imply.
Instead they suggest that everyone just spend 60 minutes locked in Ramuh EX with a party that has no hope of clearing for no reward whatsoever.
Given the reputation of toxicity some of these people have on their own servers, I'd say their standards for themselves should better reflect their standards for others if they want to do such hypocritical white knighting. -
05-31-2016, 11:46 AMViolette
My feelings are hurt. I thought we got on great.
Though glass houses and stones man. -
05-31-2016, 12:19 PMHoodRat
Some people can't see the difference between a group who can learn the mechanics and clear and a group who has no chance at all and just needs to leave because the amount of time they are given from the mentor roulette is not enough to help them. You can't help those who aren't interested in actually learning.
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05-31-2016, 12:59 PMADVSSThe sad truthQuote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
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05-31-2016, 02:55 PMFernosaurThat's such a douchey and elitist thing to do. Them kicking you, I mean. You were doing your job, and it was just a damn roulette. Are they expecting raid-level play from people in Duty Finder? Seriously, everyone here who's telling this guy he deserved getting kicked out, you need to get that stick out of you. It's just a game, and he wasn't even doing hard content. If a healer is doing his or her main job, which is not letting people die (not even keeping people topped off), then why be such d***s to him? I agree that it's kind of annoying when I see people being lazy, but to each their own! It shouldn't make you miserable if they are, and you shouldn't make them miserable by kicking them either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zolvolt
You could have replied with some explanation instead of staying quiet, though, I'll give them that. -
05-31-2016, 03:38 PMHoodRatIf my friends and I got paired with a healer who clearly is doing the bare minimum and doesn't respond when we try to tell him he can do more, we most likely would have kicked him as well. Not everyone is okay with carrying people who don't feel like putting in effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernosaur
So it's okay for people to be bad and slow down other people if the content is easy? lolwutQuote:
Originally Posted by Fernosaur
It's fine if you want to eat and play at the same time, I've done it before multiple times. But if you are playing with other people and are putting your food before them, you have no right to be upset when they kick you because you're more interested in your food than clearing content with the group. -
05-31-2016, 06:21 PMFernosaur
The thing is, from what he's saying, he wasn't even getting carried. He wasn't spamming AoEs or whatever, but no one was wiping because of him. At most they "lost" five extra minutes of their life in that dungeon, five minutes which would have probably been spent staring at a computer screen in Facebook anyways. What I'm saying is that it's making a very big deal out of a really minor thing. It's Duty Finder, there are much worse people you could get than someone who is doing their job despite not playing 100% optimally.
Also, you can't always expect everyone to have the same amount of skill as you do. They might be doing their best effort, but they may just be bad at the game, or be learning their rotations, or just plain be rusty after a long time not playing. Does that mean they're not allowed to play it and should be kicked? That's just toxic mentality, dude. You can't have expectations of super optimal play in something as trivial as the duty roulette. -
05-31-2016, 08:15 PMwinsockhahahahha. Having a criminal trial is about proving you committed an action that already isn't legally tolerated. Your response about "fair trials" has nothing to do with "live and let live".Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Here is a clearer example for you. Let's say the behavior is adultery / you adopt the lifestyle of a cheater. It is a perfectly legal thing to do, but it isn't socially acceptable for the majority of ppl. Not saying that you can't do it, just saying it's a selfish thing to do and you shouldn't cry "live and let live" on the internet if ppl reject that behavior.
You are aware of your actions and are aware that the are not socially acceptable. You should not be surprised if there are social consequences. Those consequences might be disapproval and social rejection rather than a prison sentence, but they are still consequences you've earned yourself and have no right to complain about. -
06-01-2016, 12:58 AMRed_WolfLOL, was wondering why nobody seemed to like you. I had to read back a little ways to find it but wow...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
What you are actually saying here is that your time is more valuable than everyone else's. You won't win any friends with that attitude. I don't know how to make you realize that, but assuming you've made it this far along in life without that lesson... prepare yourself for a lonely adulthood. -
06-01-2016, 11:10 AMSekuHunts, maps, or beast tribe quests. - You don't have to do roulette or dungeons. I actually would look into hunts instead if you can get a small group together, the poetics and seals from the original areas basically would have you working on two items at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zolvolt
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06-01-2016, 11:20 AMBrian_No, the basis of live and let live is you afford other people the same right to life you afford yourself. I really don't get how you are having such difficulty with even the literal meaning of words. Even if someone commits a murder, they are entitled to the same treatment under the law as you are. It's not like just because they commited a murder, the laws no longer apply to them. That is the stance you and many others in this topic are taking. You're saying that the 30-minute leaver penalty is not sufficient punishment in the case of deliberate leavers and thus need to apply your own laws based on shaming people. You are making the argument that you deserve something that you deny others the right to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by winsock
And to say leaving a dungeon is the equivalent of cheating is hilarious. No, it's not. It's the figurative equivalent of breaking up with someone or getting a divorce. You must be some far-right conservative zealot who believes that marriage is literally until death do you part. You must honestly believe that after you put that ring on, you forfeit a number of your rights as a human being. You are saying that people should not be given the right to a divorce or a one-sided break-up.
And to be clear, I'm not complaining about anything. I'm pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of a bunch of SJWs on an internet forum. You slander me for wasting other people's time but you yourself have undoubtedly wasted countless hours of other people's time in other ways. -
06-01-2016, 11:31 AMBrian_Reading comprehension is obviously not the strong suit of the users of this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Wolf
I am hardly saying my time has any more value than someone else's. I am saying that everyone has the right to enjoy the game within their individual rights. Others are making the suggestion that once you sign up for a roulette, you forfeit your freedom and the right to decide to leave.
And it's hilarious you imply adulthood is somehow different when real life is all about the interactions between individual rights and the compromises we make or don't. -
06-01-2016, 12:57 PMwinsockMy argument is that there are social consequences for behavior. I said nothing about changing game mechanic. I said you're being selfish and childish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
I can provide other examples for you to help you understand. If you don't think infidelity fits because of the severity, how about plain old lying? If you embrace dishonesty, you shouldn't be surprised if ppl disapprove of that behavior and no longer trust you.
Or what if you're someone who breaks a lot of commitments? If you frequently tell your significant other / parent / room mate that you will complete chore X and failed to complete said chore on several occasions, you shouldn't need surprised if they consider you to be unreliable.
Or in this situation: if you consistently treat people without any consideration for their wants, needs, and emotions, you shouldn't be surprised if you're labeled as "selfish".
The hypocrisy you are seeing is a delusion, but you are unable to see that because you are not considering the feelings of other people.Quote:
And to be clear, I'm not complaining about anything. I'm pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of a bunch of SJWs on an internet forum. You slander me for wasting other people's time but you yourself have undoubtedly wasted countless hours of other people's time in other ways.
* Ppl come to forums to browse, read, and participate in discussions.
* Ppl queue in the DF to be paired with a team to try to work throw group-based content.
^ if you consider other people, you'll notice that you are denying them what they expected to receive, solely because you didn't get what you wanted from a "roulette", which is childish.
However, if you completely remove empathy from the above, you'd get your logic:
* Reading takes time.
* Re-queuing takes time.
Hypocrisy!!!!!!!!! -
06-01-2016, 02:06 PMBrian_
Like I pointed out in my first post, all sides in this are guilty of being selfish. The fact is you are calling out the selfishness of some while excusing the selfishness of others. Everyone is in it for their own goals. My stance this entire time is that people will be selfish. The most you can do is hope that your goals align. And, like I detailed in my first post, the current roulette system doesn't exactly help ensure that your goals will align.
And within this topic, there are numerous other issues people have brought up that fit with this idea. Eating while doing a dungeon run and thus not playing optimally? How exactly is it not selfish to expect others to accommodate that? But, at the end of the day, if you want to express that selfishness, you are fully within your rights to do so. All I am saying is that the other party members are equally entitled to express their selfishness and kick you or drop the duty.
You call it childish. I'd say the mature approach is to take things in stride, understand the give-and-take of social interactions rather than being a judgemental and over-righteous SJW, and not get caught up in the blame and shame game.
As for your other examples, they're not worth addressing as they're just as hysterically inaccurate as your older ones. The sooner you expand your perspective, the sooner you will realize how flawed they are. When I have a falling out with someone, my first reaction is not to call them a sack of selfish, childish crap. It's to understand that our paths simply couldn't align.
As for your final point, the basis is flawed. People queue into DF for various reasons. To assume you are the judge of everything and everyone is beyond presumptuous. But, given your holier than thou posting history, it's not surprising that you are on that high-horse. Take the Castrums for example. Some are in there to actually experience the story. Some are in there to just progress their MSQ. Some are in there to farm tomestones. The different groups have conflicting goals. At the end of the day, all you can hope and expect is for the people who want a fast run to push for a fast run in their own way while the people who want to enjoy the story can hopefully do that. If a cut-scene gets skipped due to clearing too fast, that's too bad. If your run is not as fast as you want because a few people are watching cutscenes, that's too bad. If you can't deal with it, make your own group of individuals with shared goals.
The only thing guaranteed about a DF queue is that nothing is guaranteed outside of your ability to leave with a 30 minute penalty. You are trying to twist that FACT for the sake of argument. If you don't want to deal with a tank leaving, queue as a tank or find a tank who is willing to stay and queue with them.
You are quite literally blasting leavers for not wanting to deal with RNG and then turning around to defend people who don't want to deal with the RNG of getting a tank who leaves. They are all a part of the RNG that is DF. -
06-01-2016, 02:47 PMFernosaur
Tfw when an innocent question about tanks leaving mid-dungeon runs turns into an argument about adultery and the morality of the legal system.
https://38.media.tumblr.com/52efffad...jo1_r1_500.gif
I reinforce my previous words that people take this deal way too seriously~ -
06-01-2016, 04:42 PMwinsock
I've opted to skip over most of your attempts to deflect your personal responsibility onto the roulette system, other inconsiderate players, etc.
Ultimately, your premise is incorrect and if I can show you that, everything else should fall into place, so:
I believe you are confusing "selfishness" and "motivation", "selfishness" and self-interest", and are adopting at least 1 informal fallacy to create the above. I think I know where you're going with this and if so, you are mistaken for several reasons. Before a give you a full breakdown, could you elaborate on the above quote? Do you believe that all self-aware actions are selfish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Specifically:
Give an example of any willing and conscious action you would not consider to be selfish. -
06-01-2016, 05:23 PMBrian_
You know you're grasping for straws when reality and facts are considered fictional deflection.
As for the questioning --
When the reason you do something originates from personal gain rather than viewing personal gain as a byproduct of a shared gain and/or when there is an intentional lack of consideration for others due to prioritizing oneself. That is selfish / self-centered / ego-centric / whatever synonym you want to use.
I think I've provided ample examples of this but I will restate the situation you are defending. Queuing for a dungeon with the goal of farming tomestones and then telling others that joined with a different purpose that they are not entitled to pursue their own motivations and should instead sacrifice their time for you. Your reason for queuing originates from personal gain, farming tomestones, rather than as a by product of an urge for a good shared experience / a fulfilling run for your party-mates. You clearly prioritize your own tomestones and time over the will of the leaver. SURPRISE! Their motive for leaving is probably the same!
As for what's not selfish -- doing anything with the primary goal of accommodating others.
I mentioned that I join Savage helper parties. The only gain that I personally get is more experience with the content and networking -- the former is the byproduct of a shared experience gain and the latter is a byproduct of what is hopefully a fulfilling run for the people I'm helping. -
06-01-2016, 09:01 PMNorthernLadMSP
What I think is amusing is how you are kidding yourself in to believing that your supposed helping of people in Savage somehow nullifies the behavior you display when you queue into a Roulette and leave at the drop of a hat when it's not a dungeon of your choosing.
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06-01-2016, 09:15 PMHoodRatBecause anyone who doesn't want to run the most pointless dungeon in the game when no one needs the clear is worse than Hitler, amirite.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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06-01-2016, 09:50 PMBrian_I missed the part where I tried to kid myself into thinking my good behavior negated my bad. Are you trying to suggest that you've never done anything to waste anyone's time? Because I can guarantee you do it on a daily basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
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06-01-2016, 09:50 PMNorthernLadMSPLOL thanks for that pointless response.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
If you go back and read, the OP is frustrated about tanks insta-leaving dungeons while trying to finish his Anima relic. So, please enlighten me as to what is "the most pointless dungeon in the game," is and why your comment has any relevance to said topic. -
06-01-2016, 09:58 PMBrian_Probably because he can read? You called me out. The only dungeon I mentioned by name was ARF with no bonus out of 60 roulette.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
I find it quite refreshing that rather than butt into the middle of a conversation with a baseless and ignorant remark, at least he bothers to understand what's going on before he opens his mouth. So much for a pointless response. -
06-01-2016, 10:43 PMComrade_uri
I suppose then an easy way to limit it is to either make the penalty time 1hr or remove the daily tome allowance. You leave the dungeon you lose your chance at getting tomes for that day.
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06-01-2016, 10:46 PMNorthernLadMSPLOL, ouch you really burned me. I must go sulk in a corner now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Yeah, so sorry I didn't realize you were still talking about a dungeon you mentioned once 4 pages ago. I also didn't realize that posting on a forum, in a public thread, was considered butting in to a conversation. I'll be sure to take note of that for all of my future posting endeavors. -
06-01-2016, 10:47 PMRed_WolfAnd you insult rather than opening your mind a little bit. You are special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Other people may have waited a significant amount of time for the duty finder to pop. They are ready to run whatever and whenever to get their reward done. But you on a whim decided you're too good to help those people run the instance that you signed up for, therefore you are saying that your time is more valuable than theirs. Now because of your selfishness all those people lost their spot in the queue and have to sign up again at the bottom of the list. Actions speak louder than words. You don't have to say your time is more valuable. You are just acting as if your time is more valuable. Let me clue you in on something... it's not. -
06-02-2016, 02:05 AMwinsockFull disclosure the argument I thought you were going to make is not the one you made; however, the argument you decided to make is much more flimsy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Your grouping 2 different decisions together rather than treating them separately
* One is the decision to join queue
* The other is deciding whether or not to leave after the duty starts.
To be clear, no one is judging you for your decision to join queue, or your reasons for wanting to queue.
You're getting critism for the decision of leaving the group.
You assumptions are wrong about my motivations. I stay in the party to accommodate others. I critize you in an attempt to help you realize your actions are not considered socially acceptable.Quote:
You clearly prioritize your own tomestones and time over the will of the leaver. SURPRISE! Their motive for leaving is probably the same!
As for what's not selfish -- doing anything with the primary goal of accommodating others.
The final issue with your logic is the justification of your selfishness. You try to justify your actions stating that other people are selfish. This not only is a huge assumption about the motivations of other players, but it does not make your behavior any less unwarranted. -
06-02-2016, 02:36 AMNyghtmarerobu
I'm not sure why people don't just get over it. Everyone has reasons for what they do, and who are you, or I to judge? While leaving roullettes can be obnoxious, its not as big of a deal as others are making it. "Oh no I'm inconvenienced!!", "Oh man that guy is a dick for leaving!!", why does it even matter? People are bickering over a small amount of wasted time, just leave the duty when someone else leaves, and re-que, and move on with life. OP asked why people do it, and there are a few different reasons, but much like has been said already, no one here has to explain why they leave or stay in a duty, its no one else's concern but your own, and not your problem to try to police "The Way" -YOU- want people to act. If you don't like it, cool, you voiced your opinion, lets move on with life.
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06-02-2016, 03:37 PMBrian_I criticize because it's deserved. You jump into a topic without reading the actual posts and then sling out judgements and insults, then are shocked when people question your ability to read?Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Wolf
You're right, actions speak louder than words. It's just convenient you discount the actions that don't fit your narrative. If you read and understood the extents of the discussion, you would know that I also queue as a healer / DPS (all my jobs are at 60) and also have had my tanks leave. Clearly I think my time is more valuable than theirs because I went out of my way to shame them and go beyond the existing system of penalization... oh wait... I didn't. I take it in stride and just requeue. Why? Because I understand that my time is not more valuable than someone else's. I don't get to say my time is so much more valuable than someone else's that I have some societal right to judge and shame people for exercising their right to play a game how they wish to and change a system SE has said they are fine with.
But yea, actions speak louder than words. I wonder how your actions speak. The action of judging someone without even bothering to fully understand what they're saying. The action of lying and slandering someone based on ignorance and bias. -
06-02-2016, 04:14 PMBrian_Yea, my arguments are so flimsy that you have to resort to twisting the narrative and still fail to present any type of counter argument. Instead you try to re-frame the argument into something different to try and claim some type of meaningless moral victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by winsock
From my very first post in topic, nobody has confused this point and yet now you are trying to split them up. From very early on, people were attacking and judging the decision to queue with the purpose of tome efficiency and misconstruing the very nature of DF -- including you. So no, a lot of people are judging my decision to queue and the reasons for wanting to queue. How you missed this is bewildering. Just go back and read any of the long rants about my apparent "misuse" of the mentor roulette.
If you were actually accommodating to people, you would see someone who really doesn't want to run a specific dungeon and let them be. As I've said and repeated, people queue for DF with different motivations. If the goals of the group don't align, then that's too bad and you can only deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by winsock
Also, within the context of my original post, it was not an assumption. It was a fact. The TC was queuing with the purpose of farming tomestones for his relic. I am not saying that any behavior is above criticism. I am saying that it is hypocritical to criticize one form of selfishness while endorsing another form of selfishness as if you're some innocent saint. As Nyghtmarerobu said, sometimes you just need to get over yourself, acknowledge that's how things are, and move on. Two wrongs don't make a right but criticizing one wrong while you are guilty of the same wrong and utterly blind to that fact makes you a massive hypocrite. That is what I've been saying. -
06-02-2016, 04:33 PMMahoSenshi
There are two kinds of people. Ones who try to "git gud"(tm) and the ones who doesn't.
Personally, i never leave b/c "ugh, wrong dj". AV, ACRF, whatever. But sometimes RNG gives you shit teammates, who clearly slacking and want to be carried or just fine with not trying to perform better (yes, ppl can be new and its ok if they're trying). Well, if they don't want to clear dj fast and ok with a "nice and slow run" they can enjoy a nice and slow re-queue. -
06-02-2016, 07:17 PMwinsockYou still seem confused. How am I not accommodating the leaver? I don't talk to them after they leave and can't prevent them from leaving. I even leave dungeons if I need to... to change classes and queue for the specific in progress to help the group the leaver abandoned in their selfishnessQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
You are the only unaccommodating person in the DF scenario.
Further, your argument is has cyclical reasoning.
According to your logic, the rest of the group doesn't accommodate the leaver and that means that no one is accommodating. (Which isn't true as the rest of the party has no choice as to whether a leaver leaves)
However, if you chose not to leave, then everyone would be accommodating. In other words, you are the problem.
If you really believe your own logic and have a problem with ppl's supposed hypocrisy, just accommodate the group and suddenly these people are no longer hypocrites. -
06-02-2016, 09:52 PMBrian_Or you could just get off your high horse and stop telling other people how to play the game and use their time. That would also stop the cycle. And, that's also what I've been saying this entire time.Quote:
Originally Posted by winsock
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06-02-2016, 10:27 PMJpec07There is a super huge, very large difference between discussing ideal player behavior (what we're doing) and telling people what to do (what you seem to think we're doing--the strawman). We may abhor the sort of egocentric, don't-give-a-rat's-arse-about-anyone-else behavior you don't seem to mind, and we might even suggest that people who behave that way are making the game less fun for other people, but no one is telling them they can't do that (indeed they can, there are just social consequences that they'll likely face).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
But I have to give you credit to sticking to that ad hominem strawman you've set up and knocked down so many, many times in this thread. If not for your tenacity, this thread would have died out a while ago. The irony is that in telling us to "get off our high horses," you've set yourself up on the highest horse of all - a horse made of the same strawman you keep trying to tear down. -
06-02-2016, 10:46 PMBrian_
Something isn't a straw man if people are actually saying it. In your second post you literally said that if someone can't accept your incorrect definition of a roulette, that they should not queue. Later on you said that people should enter roulette with the purpose of helping people and if they don't they might as well not queue. You are literally telling people how to play the game according to your ideals and still cry straw man when your crap gets called out. And, like I already pointed out, ideal is subjective. To me, your player behavior would never be ideal because you've chosen to play PLD and are fine with making dungeon runs slower than they have to be. But, do you see me on some high horse telling you to change your job or don't queue? No. I let you play the game you want to play.
And, just to prove a point.
I've done around 3000 dungeons. Even assuming I've left 1/6th of them -- which is probably WAY more than I've actually left, and assuming that it takes 15 minutes to requeue -- again, probably WAY longer as an average on my data-center, the math works out as such --
600 left dungeons, 3 other party members, 15 minute re-queue per person = 27000 total minutes wasted.
Now, assuming that I were like you and played predominantly PLD for whatever reason and didn't leave dungeons, the math works out as such --
3600 dungeons done, 3 other party members, runs are on average around 2-3 minutes longer (for simplicity, I will say 2.5 minutes) = 27000 total minutes wasted.
I would've wasted the exact same amount of my party-mate's time even with skewed leaver numbers.
But somehow I'm the one that has to change their behavior because I'm wasting the time of others.