The cast time on Stoneskin II

The single defining factor in this conversation is that Stoneskin 2 can not be cast in combat. Therefore, there is absolutely zero reason for it to have a cast time of 5 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

snip

---

All I'm asking for is a justification for a long cast time on a skill that can't be used in battle. The point of cast times and MP costs is to balance a skill while in combat. They are 2 factors to consider before using a skill as a player judges the opportunity cost before making a decision. None of this exists for SSII. The end result is a waste of player time. This feeling of having their time wasted is so prevalent that it's become commonplace to burn swiftcast to avoid 5s of cast time for no other reason than to not waste 5s waiting on the cast time. I'm baffled that you fail to understand this.

I demand a QoL fix for SCH. Adlos should 100% crit while outside of combat. Its a very long process trying to get an optimal shield and the MP cost can be taxing even outside of combat if it takes long enough.

*This is a troll. I don't really care if WHM gets Stoneskin II buffed. Its just a DPS slow down as its tradeoff*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

The point of cast times and MP costs is to balance a skill while in combat.

---

Or between combats.

As it stands, if someone should happen to want to cast Stoneskin II between trash pulls, it must be swiftcast on the run. Whether or not this is a "good" or "effective" use of anything is irrelevant. Modifying Stoneskin II to have a native instant cast would have the effect of removing the choice between using Swiftcast to reapply Stoneskin II on the run or saving Swiftcast for, say, a Holy, which effectively and unintentionally increases the value of Holy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawrz

I demand a QoL fix for SCH. Adlos should 100% crit while outside of combat. Its a very long process trying to get an optimal shield and the MP cost can be taxing even outside of combat if it takes long enough.

*This is a troll. I don't really care if WHM gets Stoneskin II buffed. Its just a DPS slow down as its tradeoff*

---

Oh and Scholar summons should be instacast, it's the same speed as Stoneskin II so if that gets buffed better even the playing field! Help us Scholars not "waste" a swift!


Meanwhile those of us playing AST in the main healer seat in raids sit quietly. Those Stoneskin 1s each wipe. Don't take your WHM QoL for granted!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technole

Oh and Scholar summons should be instacast, it's the same speed as Stoneskin II so if that gets buffed better even the playing field! Help us Scholars not "waste" a swift!

---

If scholars can get instant out of combat summons, can summoners get it as well? And can machinists quick reload give 5 ammo instead of 1 outside of combat?

While I'm not usually a fan of "Slippery Slope" arguments, it can absolutely be applied to this situation in the way the above posters have been stating. There's all sorts of things that players would want from their skills out of combat in order to hasten things along. I have yet to see any WHM or SCH or SMN in any sort of non-trash content burn Swiftcast on Stoneskin II or Summon - both of which always seem to be done and ready long before the pull happens... Both of which need to be re-applied applied after a wipe...

The bottom line is that removing SSII's cast time removes the choice of being normal and just casting it because the pull isn't gonna happen for another 15-20s anyway and otherwise you're just standing around versus burning one of your most useful cooldowns on a skill you could have just hardcast instead with no negative side-effects.

It's silly.

I regularly heal Expert Roulette with my Scholar. I have never ONCE cast a pre-boss Succor on the party. I don't even have Stoneskin on my bar. I throw Adlo on the tank and turn Cleric on. Every boss. My Scholar is i213 with a Gordian Codex. The fact that you're complaining about being unable to use a pointless skill before every boss in a dungeon because of the cast time is the same thing as:

A Summoner or Scholar whining about Summon/Summon II/Summon III cast time.
A Monk whining about how long it takes them to build up 5 stacks of Chakra or how hard it is to maintain Greased Lightning in a dungeon.
A Ninja whining about how long it takes to recast Huton before each boss.
A Machinist whining about not being able to do a 5 ammo opener on every boss in a dungeon.
A Bard whining about having to cast Foe Requiem before each pull in a dungeon with a caster present.
An Astrologian whining about having to cast Stoneskin on every party member before each boss in a dungeon.
A Scholar whining about the tank not pulling until there's 5s left on their Crit Adlo. (THIS IS THE WORST THO)
A Warrior whining about being unable to do their full 1-minute Infuriate opener on every dungeon boss.
A Dark Knight whining about DPS who beg them to not use Plunge to pull for one reason or another.


Why are these all the same thing?
Because every single thing I listed there is optional, especially for a Dungeon run where DPS checks are less than negligible and upkeep is near impossible. Everyone has to deal with shit that's both optional in any situation where it's an issue as well as time consuming to the tune of "why is this a thing I have to deal with?" - WHM isn't special, so why should it get special treatment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

snip

---

Yes, but how many of those skills you mentioned are inherently locked out of being cast during combat?

If this could be cast in combat, it would make sense to have a cast time. All these "lolsofunny" posts about adlo crits or summoning pets hold no relevance to the discussion. SSII can't be cast in combat. There's no room for abuse. It just has an annoyingly long cast time that could easily be shorter, if not instant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

There's no room for abuse.

---

This post points out perfectly where it makes the difference:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

Or between combats.

As it stands, if someone should happen to want to cast Stoneskin II between trash pulls, it must be swiftcast on the run. Whether or not this is a "good" or "effective" use of anything is irrelevant. Modifying Stoneskin II to have a native instant cast would have the effect of removing the choice between using Swiftcast to reapply Stoneskin II on the run or saving Swiftcast for, say, a Holy, which effectively and unintentionally increases the value of Holy.

---

Another example would be A6 when you running from robot to robot, not all the tank will wait for SS, let alone SS2. You gotta choose to burn swiftcast or just SS the tank, or just no SS at all.

Also all those skills you said are not lockout in combat, SS is not either. SS2 is just equal 4x or 8x SS. You can cast 4x or 8x SS during combat can you not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Yes, but how many of those skills you mentioned are inherently locked out of being cast during combat?

If this could be cast in combat, it would make sense to have a cast time. All these "lolsofunny" posts about adlo crits or summoning pets hold no relevance to the discussion. SSII can't be cast in combat. There's no room for abuse. It just has an annoyingly long cast time that could easily be shorter, if not instant.

---

If Stoneskin 2 would be castable in combat noone would even try to get an AST mainhealer (best example A6S between the bosses...it would be too OP). It is a balance thing isn't it? As SCH or AST you have 8 seperate casts I don't get why they even gave WHM this advantage... or they couldve made it for all classes the moment Granite Skin was removed -.-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Werhusky

If Stoneskin 2 would be castable in combat noone would even try to get an AST mainhealer (best example A6S between the bosses...it would be too OP). It is a balance thing isn't it? As SCH or AST you have 8 seperate casts I don't get why they even gave WHM this advantage... or they couldve made it for all classes the moment Granite Skin was removed -.-

---

Honestly, yes, all the healer classes should have access to SSII. It's not often that I get a group without a WHM, but waiting for a SCH and AST to fumble around casting SS in the whole party is a huge time sink, and can't be any fun for the SCH and AST. It's supposed to be a convenient spell, but 5s of cast time is anything but convenient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Yes, but how many of those skills you mentioned are inherently locked out of being cast during combat?

If this could be cast in combat, it would make sense to have a cast time. All these "lolsofunny" posts about adlo crits or summoning pets hold no relevance to the discussion. SSII can't be cast in combat. There's no room for abuse. It just has an annoyingly long cast time that could easily be shorter, if not instant.

---

None of them are inherently locked out of use in battle, no, but a good majority of them are implicitly locked out of being used in-battle without significant drawbacks.
1. Chakra is on the GCD. You can't gain stacks mid-fight without sacrificing offense.
2. Casting Huton mid-fight is a dps loss, since Armor Crush exists now.
3. A Machinist cannot do a 5-ammo opener, even when RS comes back again, unless they stand still and only press off-gcd skills for the following 30-40s while waiting for Reload to refresh its CD without using any of the ammo.
4. Foe Requiem can only be used mid-fight by sacrificing ~2 gcds of damage.

Not locked out by skill requirements, but locked out by skill requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Honestly, yes, all the healer classes should have access to SSII. It's not often that I get a group without a WHM, but waiting for a SCH and AST to fumble around casting SS in the whole party is a huge time sink, and can't be any fun for the SCH and AST. It's supposed to be a convenient spell, but 5s of cast time is anything but convenient.

---

You just said:
"It is so inconvenient to wait for a SCH or AST to cast 8 Stoneskins on the party when no WHM is present."
Followed immediately by:
"Cutting that time down by 75% is not convenient."

Excuse me for not following this logic. Stoneskin is a WHM skill which is unnecessary in almost every instance in the game. As I have said before and will now say again, you only use Stoneskin on the party before an encounter so it absorbs some of the pain from the first raid-wide AoE skill, thus allowing both healers to DPS for longer without needing to pause and heal the raid as hard. And that's cool, but completely unnecessary, especially when it's a pug WHM who does 0 DPS anyway and casts SS2 because "casting SS2 is what I need to do" or a pair of AST/SCH where the AST isn't DPSing anyway (because my dps is based on the cards I give!) and then still feel the need to SS the entire party.

It's illogical, unnecessary, and pointless. It's already a skill designed for convenience. It only exists on White Mage, because White Mage is a Conjurer, whose roots are in the natural elements - wind, water, and earth. They have Stoneskin - an earth elemental spell - so it stands to reason they'd be the only one able to cast it.

The bottom line, though, yet again, is that Stoneskin on the party is optional and it is a convenience to that optional spell to be able to cast it on the party at once before a pull. The only reason that any of the arguments made ("Every Job should have access to it" / "It's not usable in-battle so why the cast time") only hold any weight if said effect granted by said spell were necessary and undeniably useful in all circumstances which it just flat out is not.

Like - people wanting the cast time removed are just embodying the #WhitePeopleProblems or #FirstWorldProblems hashtags right now. I have this great skill that makes it easier to apply this optional status to my team, but it's not good enough because it takes more than zero time to use. Basically, get over yourself and cast the spell. Or don't. Or use Swiftcast because the cast is too long for you. Either way, it's totally fine and does not warrant change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

snip

---

Your ability to miss the point is awe inspiring.

Is SSII more convenient than casting 8 stoneskins?
Yes.

Is a 5s cast time on SSII, a skill which can't be used in combat, convenient?
No.

Your bit about "the spell is optional" is funny, even if it is just grasping at straws. What skill in this game isn't optional? Can you make a relevant argument to my very simple point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Your ability to miss the point is awe inspiring.

Is SSII more convenient than casting 8 stoneskins?
Yes.

Is a 5s cast time on SSII, a skill which can't be used in combat, convenient?
No.

Your bit about "the spell is optional" is funny, even if it is just grasping at straws. What skill in this game isn't optional? Can you make a relevant argument to my very simple point.

---

But there is a big difference between something being convienient and something being necessary.

In the context of a raid, then it really doesnt matter how long it would take to cast, unless its your very first pull of the night, then you are most likely waiting on other people cooldowns, so casting SSII as an instant cast, or as a hard cast, or hard casting 8 stoneskins doesnt really matter.

In the context of other content, then having a lower cast time which allows it to be cast regularly between pulls may upset the balance of the game, soloey because stoneskin lasts 30 mins as a buff. Other aoe shields with lower cast times not only shield for less but last 30seconds, meaning they are useful only if the enemy/boss uses an aoe within the very first part of the fight. The 30mins on stoneskin gives too much leeway in regards to everyone being guaranteed to absorb one attack without being healed. In dungeons this would be abusable (guaranteed stoneskin 2 after every pull meaning healer can dps more and theoretically dps can do so as well as they dont have to move for that very first aoe).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Your ability to miss the point is awe inspiring.

---

I could say the same to you, but I won't.

"What skill in the game isn't optional?"

Since the only situation we are discussing is pre-pull, here is a complete list of skills which are not optional to be active before a pull begins:

1. Protect
2. Stances for tanks (ShO/SwO, Def/Del, Grit/No-Grit + Darkside)
3. Kiss of the Viper or Kiss of the Wasp + Huton
4. Fists of Fire + 5 Chakra stacks
5. Selene or Eos + Aetherflow
6. Garuda or Ifrit + Aetherflow
7. Nocturnal or Diurnal Sect
8. Gauss Barrel (debatable) + Rook Autoturret or Bishop Autoturret
9. The Wanderer's Minuet (debatable)

That's it. Beyond that, you're making choices. Do I want my MT to start with an Adlo/Aspected Benefic/Stoneskin to mitigate the first hit? Do I want my party to start with Deploy Adlo/Succor/Aspected Helios/Stoneskin to mitigate the first hit? Do I want to start in Cleric Stance to open with DPS?

Choices.

Options.

Note that none of the skills I listed have cast times, save for Protect and the Summon spells. Protect is the same cast time on all healers - because it is a necessary buff for every party to have at all times, due to the flat 15% defense boost that equates to ~8% or so mitigation on every incoming hit. All damage is determined with Protect as a baseline by guides. No one seems to be bitching about Summon cast times, since it's almost like they don't matter, because anytime you'd actually consider it NOT optional, you have more than enough time to cast the spell hard and summon it, except when it dies mid-fight. (optional times being when it is already out and running between encounters and you kinda want to switch your pet)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

snip

---

Again, your ability to miss the point is astounding.

Everything you listed is as optional as stoneskin. Is it the best idea to not use them? No. Is it optimal to not use them? No.

Every standard you could use to declare that list as mandatory also applies to stoneskin. At least try to construct a point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Again, your ability to miss the point is astounding.

---

If you have time to rebut avoid the rational arguments presented to you, you have way more than five spare seconds to cast a spell that you're lucky they even bothered to give ungrateful people in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

If you have time to rebut avoid the rational arguments presented to you, you have way more than five spare seconds to cast a spell that you're lucky they even bothered to give ungrateful people in the first place.

---

Oh, the irony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Everything you listed is as optional as stoneskin.

---

Here's where I see myself out.

I don't have the energy to argue with someone who considers a marginal gain to healing efficiency to be equally as important as passive tank mitigation, passive dps increases, and other permanent states of being for various Jobs to perform even remotely competently.

This just in: A party lacking Stoneskin on the pull is as detrimental to clearing an encounter as the same party lacking Protect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

Here's where I see myself out.

---

Maybe brush up on what it means for something to be optional. In terms for optimizing for pull, stoneskin and protect, and anything else is on equal footing in that you should use them. You're painting this picture where progression groups where say "you know what, just skip the stoneskin"; that doesn't happen. You're painting this picture because your argument is incredibly disingenuous because you've gone off on a massive tangent that has nothing to do with the original point I made.

SSII is an inherently out of combat only skill. The cast time and MP cost are purely a formality as there is no need for the skill to have an opportunity cost of time and MP for the sake of balance during encounters. So get off your high horse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

Maybe brush up on what it means for something to be optional. In terms for optimizing for pull, stoneskin and protect, and anything else is on equal footing in that you should use them. You're painting this picture where progression groups where say "you know what, just skip the stoneskin"; that doesn't happen. You're painting this picture because your argument is incredibly disingenuous because you've gone off on a massive tangent that has nothing to do with the original point I made.

SSII is an inherently out of combat only skill. The cast time and MP cost are purely a formality as there is no need for the skill to have an opportunity cost of time and MP for the sake of balance during encounters. So get off your high horse.

---

Something something Something post this above something something something balance something something 30min shield something something.........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Destous

You're painting this picture where progression groups where say "you know what, just skip the stoneskin"; that doesn't happen.

---

You know why it doesn't happen? Because they cast it long before the pull instead of complaining on the forums about the cast time.

On my case I like SS2 as it is now because it help me finding which whm is bad and which tank i will kill

Any Swift ss2 is labelled as bad whm from the beginning for me except if they show me that they are able to handle thing perfectly (aka not being cure spam OR medica2 spam...)
-> i can count less than 10 good whm

Any tank that do not wait for my own ss2 that I pre-cast by sprinting in front of the boss room will have a hard time
More or less i will let him die to 5% hp or less and bene his face and waiting for his complaining(if the pack is really small i won't even bother bene and kill him then tank

To be clear... there is a LOT of bot heal, and only a few true white mage