I was sick of tomes in 2.0 now I loathe them in 3.0

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That isn't really a solution. I'd rather just have both options than one, if that is the issue. For example, Expert dungeons could drop 220 level gear instead of 195. Expert dungeons should be tuned as such though - and then level 60 roulette could be the 'easy faceroll' stuff that you can grind away for Lore if you don't want something challenging.

There is a massive difference between 'challenging' and 'savage' unfortunately.

I don't entirely understand the don't have time argument. I'd rather be undergeared and behind while having fun, than caught up in max gear by doing chores. What part of the gameplay of content that requires no effort and very little thought, giving out a very predictable currency for an item is fun for you?

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Fun is subjective though. I'm still having fun playing the game as it is, but then, I have someone I play with who also enjoys the game for what it is. I enjoy the dungeons, and I get my grinding kicks from the relic quests. Sure, I'd love it if they added harder dungeons, or made the experts actually drop relevant gear and be moderately difficult, but that's different from wanting no tomes at all.

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Originally Posted by Elky

Its a means of being rewarded with the best gear for the easiest, most mundane content that is excessively repetitive.

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This statement doesn't make any sense, though. You don't get the best gear from tomes alone. You get the best gear (for some slots) from a combination of tomes and raiding. Lore gear is only i230 without the upgrade materials from Alexander Savage until months down the road when they're put into the Weeping City of Mhach raid as "catch up" material.

Even then, you're still doing other content besides Expert Roulette to get that "best gear".

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Fun is subjective though. I'm still having fun playing the game as it is, but then, I have someone I play with who also enjoys the game for what it is. I enjoy the dungeons, and I get my grinding kicks from the relic quests. Sure, I'd love it if they added harder dungeons, or made the experts actually drop relevant gear and be moderately difficult, but that's different from wanting no tomes at all.

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Fun is subjective is directly related to my question. I first listed that I would rather be having fun, as previously described - showing how I have fun. And then I asked how you have fun.

As for your second point, I dislike tomes a lot (so I'd rather them be gone completely), but I understand some people like them - that is why i'd rather have a system which has both.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Funny how people complain about it but dont offer a viable solution or reasonable alternative that will suit the playerbase as a whole and not just raiders in general.

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I wasn't aware that I'm an employee of Square Enix. I was under the impression that I'm a customer. Silly me. guess I'll go back to work making new concepts for the game. Whats my hourly wage captain?

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Originally Posted by Elky

I wasn't aware that I'm an employee of Square Enix. I was under the impression that I'm a customer. Silly me. guess I'll go back to work making new concepts for the game. Whats my hourly wage captain?

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I will pay you 10 posts per day to code a new system!

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

This statement doesn't make any sense, though. You don't get the best gear from tomes alone. You get the best gear (for some slots) from a combination of tomes and raiding. Lore gear is only i230 without the upgrade materials from Alexander Savage until months down the road when they're put into the Weeping City of Mhach raid as "catch up" material.

Even then, you're still doing other content besides Expert Roulette to get that "best gear".

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meh, I'm just getting bored of a realm reborn. I mean heavensward. They're kinda the same thing when you take out the story and flying. I could've worn I bought an expansion...

I still would rather they just raised the cap every week and removed the reset altogether.

So instead of going from 450/450 on a Monday to 0/450 after reset rinse repeat,
you go from 450/450 or say 230/450 to 450/900 or 230/900 and then 900/1350 and like 460/1350, that way you are always in a position to "catch up" as you have the ability to get the maximum amount of tomes as everyone else currently playing for that tome cycle and you still have the time gating its just not punishing anyone for taking a week off.

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Originally Posted by Elky

meh, I'm just getting bored of a realm reborn. I mean heavensward. They're kinda the same thing when you take out the story and flying. I could've worn I bought an expansion...

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You did buy an expansion. What you didn't buy is a completely new game.

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Originally Posted by Elky

Its a means of being rewarded with the best gear for the easiest, most mundane content that is excessively repetitive.

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Yeah, this is what I do not like. I am okay with people getting decent gear from this stuff...but they need more options, more horizontal gear choices...less...vertical aka only one way. Sure, you can get tomes from instanced content (void ark, alexander, roulette) and then from hunts....but that is it. They didn't bother fixing and updating diadem like they said they would and this game is just too vertical right now. I don't hate the game, it has potential sure, but if things don't change in the future I don't see myself sticking around much longer...and I been here since alpha 2010. :/

They need something else, 8 man dungeons with interesting choices and dynamic stuff, open world coffers like we had in 1.x, that kinda stuff! Don't get me started on getting our 1.x stats bck too...I kinda gave up on that despite them saying they're putting them in (yeah right)

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

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Had to cut the post cuz its tellin me its too long ; ; But yeah the only proof I can offer as far as people quitting and not coming back after taking a break is a loooooot of my friends and FC. Now, my FC is still pretty active and stuff..but all my 1.0 friends and a LOT of the people I've known have taken a break since summer 2014 and never came back >.> A ton of my friends/FC/LS came back for HW and then quit about 3-4 weeks after...still have not come back. Out of my huge group of friends...there is still a good chunk of us left but then again an even larger chunk of them all quit and never want to come back. Granted that is nothing compared to the thousands who play the game but it is just from my own observation.

Side note, theres nothing special about tome gear. No special effects, all what tome gear provides is a few more stats than the previous gear. At least we can meld this gear.

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

I still would rather they just raised the cap every week and removed the reset altogether.

So instead of going from 450/450 on a Monday to 0/450 after reset rinse repeat,
you go from 450/450 or say 230/450 to 450/900 or 230/900 and then 900/1350 and like 460/1350, that way you are always in a position to "catch up" as you have the ability to get the maximum amount of tomes as everyone else currently playing for that tome cycle and you still have the time gating its just not punishing anyone for taking a week off.

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that i can live with it

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I really am hopeful for these new solo-challenge dungeons we can do. I hope we can take our birds into them, 'cause then I can rock my R20 bird into it and have some fun.

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As a side note, I am pretty sure they said the content is balanced around a 4 person party. You can enter solo, but it will be very hard.
-http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/291208-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-XXIX-Update-Thread/page2

I don't view the tomes and lockouts as a necessarily bad thing, I think they could have adjustments to make them more enjoyable, for sure, but they aren't inherently terrible as is. Personally, I've leveled several classes in each role category, so that keeps me from getting overly bored, cuz I can just constantly change what I run my roulettes on day to day or whatever. Playing only one class will get boring to even the most avid player of said class, imo. That being said, the "take a break" response is pretty bad, but not without merit, there's no harm in taking a day or two off to play something else from time to time if you're that bored and miserable. let your "FFXIV batteries" recharge, so to speak. A little trip OUT of Eorzea will do us all good from time to time. I find it lets me appreciate the small things in this game a lot more after I leave to play a single player game for a day or two.

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Originally Posted by Iromi

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You are choosing to play a game that has a vertical progression model, no amount of you or other players wanting a horizontal progression system will change that fact. Those type of MMOs are a dying breed and the current model is what is generating business. Adding more gear selections for each item level tier isn't going to change the fact that people will map out what is BiS and go for that only. There are plenty of people out there who only look at ilvl and gear accordingly which is detrimental to their performance. With the i220 crafted gear, some of those pentamelded with IV materia are better than the i230 lore gear. Even some of the i220 Midas gear is better than i230 lore gear for some slots (slot varies by job). There are multiple options out there if you manage to look past the item level. I am leaving out i240 gear on purpose because the topic of this discussion is tome gear which in it's current state is limited to i230 (only way to upgrade at the moment is through raiding and that is not part of this discussion).

As far as things like Diadem go, they are working on changes. You can't expect them to take the system, do a complete overhaul and magically have it out on your timeline. They have made announcements regarding Diadem already stating that they have heard the player feedback and are working on changing it. I'd rather they take their time to rework it into something more enjoyable than just make knee jerk changes sporadically leaving it unrefined.

We are getting 8 man dungeons as well in 3.3 in the form of the treasure map dungeons. Palace of the Dead also has the potential to be something fun to do that isn't locked behind max level (i.e. max level players can now play with friends and novices alike without steam rolling the content).

As for people taking breaks and not coming back, everyone will have different experiences with that. I personally know a lot of people who come back after every content patch, play for a few months then take a break again. I know people who took a break and did not come back for a year or not at all. I also know people who have been playing since 1.0 launch and still play this game regularly. It's a situation where each person will have a different experience and takes on whether it is beneficial or not.

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

I still would rather they just raised the cap every week and removed the reset altogether.

So instead of going from 450/450 on a Monday to 0/450 after reset rinse repeat,
you go from 450/450 or say 230/450 to 450/900 or 230/900 and then 900/1350 and like 460/1350, that way you are always in a position to "catch up" as you have the ability to get the maximum amount of tomes as everyone else currently playing for that tome cycle and you still have the time gating its just not punishing anyone for taking a week off.

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This. This is what I came to post.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Abolishing the weekly cap just takes the gap between hardcore and casual, drives a wedge into it, and levers it wider until it's completely insurmountable.

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That's not true. The reason I say this is because there are only a certain number of pieces of gear that can be acquired. If someone wants to grind until their eyes bleed that's fine, in my opinion. It's their prerogative. However, there are those of us who have multiple 60s that we would like to fully gear and the weekly cap makes this seemingly impossible to do before the gear we're working to obtain because obsolete, via planned obsolence, when a new, higher, tier of tome gear is released.

You make sound arguments and seem to be very intelligent and I always enjoy your posts, but I must disagree with you on this particular point. Having a weekly cap is just more gated content. If I want, for example, to fully gear Drk, Brd, Nin, Blm, War, Smn, and Mnk in Lore gear, there would be no way that I could acquire all of the Lore gear for all of those jobs at 450 tomes of Lore a week until the next tier of gear is released. It's just not mathematically possible and this is the problem that I have with a measly 450 tome cap. It's extending the length of time gear and content are relevant for the sake of doing so while restricting the paying playerbase from being able to acquire all of the gear that they would like to acquire. It's not right, and I do not agree with it.

The tome cap should be abolished period.

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Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu

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I don't understand how you tell Ashkendor that his statement was not true only to provide an example of his statement being true. When he talked about hardcore, I don't think he was using it in a way to denote raid style, but rather play style. By wanting to fully gear 5 jobs with 7 different weapons, you would be considered hardcore in terms of play style. The point of the weekly cap isn't to stop people from gearing multiple 60s, it's to provide a progression curve that the devs have set in order to prolong content to match a timeline they have established for the average player base doing raid content.

On a side note, give it time and I'm sure once they relaunch Diadem, you will have your chance to gear up multiple 60s. Whether or not you choose to run it once it has been updated is your prerogative. Also, with the current patch cycles, you can easily have 3-4 jobs geared up via tomes and 2 jobs via the new 24 man before the gear itself becomes obsolete. While you might not be able to get into i230+, you also have the option of gearing to i220 with crafted (some of which is better than i230) and Midas normal. That's enough to be able to run Midas Savage runs with.

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Originally Posted by Cnidarian

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I was just providing an example as to how abolishing the cap on tomes, 1. Does not prevent someone from being able to catch up. and 2. Doesn't actually increase the gap between hardcore and casual. While the cap on tomes, 1. Hinders players from being able to gear multiple jobs in the amount of relevant current tier gear that they would like to before that gear becomes obsolete. and 2. Creates more gated content and is completely unnecessary.

Just because I casually play the game and over time earn far more tomes than what the current cap allows does not, in any way, make me hardcore. I do not participate in Savage. I have yet to try most of the latest Ex Primal fights, and I don't play the game for more than 3-4 hours a day most days. I'm lucky if I get 3-4 hours, a day, with a wife and 2 yr old. lol

All of this is not to say that I don't understand what you are saying when you say, "I don't understand how you tell Ashkendor that his statement was not true only to provide an example of his statement being true." I'm just merely stating the reason for my post, as well as providing an example of the fact that you don't have to be hardcore to grind tomes of Lore. The majority of content that rewards Lore tomes is faceroll content anyway. If I spam hunts, DR EX, Void Ark, and Lvl 60 Dungeons, just as an example, I would consider myself far from hardcore, but with abolishing the tome cap at least I would have the option of having the ability to acquire all of the pieces of Lore gear that I would like to acquire.

I've been against the tome cap for some time now. I'll always stand by my opinion that the tome cap needs to be abolished. ( ~.ø)b

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Removing that weekly lockout doesn't remove the need for people to cap, though. People that don't feel the need to cap would be unaffected. People that do feel the need to cap would only have it worse then. Instead of a finite weekly amount you need to get to keep up, suddenly there's a situation where once you fall behind the frontrunners you can never catch up. Newer players come into the game far behind with no hope of ever catching up. That's a terrible feeling to have in any game. Abolishing the weekly cap just takes the gap between hardcore and casual, drives a wedge into it, and levers it wider until it's completely insurmountable.

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The way content is released in this game prevents anyone from getting too far ahead. So what's the worst that happens? A more casual player may end up with only one or two jobs that are geared well enough to complete in the most current endgame while a more hardcore player may have 6 or so. Who cares? Outside of PvP and maybe crafting, I'm failing to see an issue with allowing people to gear their jobs at their own pace.

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Originally Posted by Elky

Its a means of being rewarded with the best gear for the easiest, most mundane content that is excessively repetitive.

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Oh, so this is really about wanting the top gear to come from harder content?
SE already holds back tome gear by making the upgrade items exclusive to raids until a patch later. I don't see how keeping the top gear in hard content only will make things less repetitive as it would shrink the list of content worth running at any one time.

While the cap remains in place my ninja will gear slowly while melded crafted gear can be bought and obtained in much less time and be possibly better then 230 gear with materia.

Six 30 minute expert roulette dungeons every week, to cap.

Less if you do practically any other type of HW instances.

Not exactly a large time commitment, lol...

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Six 30 minute expert roulette dungeons every week, to cap.

Less if you do practically any other type of HW instances.

Not exactly a large time commitment, lol...

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Not about time. It's about having to do the same thing over and over to cap.

So...don't bother with them?

You only need lore gear if you're doing savage, and even then, you only have to cap for a month or so then you'll have the important pieces for your class and anything after that is alt-fodder.

PvP doesn't get boring or repetitive because your enemies are real people who don't follow a fixed routine. The cap could be raised from 450 to 2000 and I still wouldn't be bored getting that many tomes each week, because PvP. In between PvP match can do casual gathering, chatting, decorating to reduce stress levels.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Don't cap then? I haven't capped in like two months. What else do you enjoy doing in game? Try that for a bit instead.

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I haven't going for cap in ages. Still it would be nice to have more than two dungeons for expert roulette. I was having more fun with expert before HW, maybe it is just other games that I feel like playing. Possibly more than just the experts being boring :p.
Still with so many other games people can play, SE needs to be more competitive.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

So...don't bother with them?

You only need lore gear if you're doing savage, and even then, you only have to cap for a month or so then you'll have the important pieces for your class and anything after that is alt-fodder.

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I don't even care that much about the cap personally, but let's say I did.


Sometimes people don't feel like doing a particular content at that point in time. Maybe they would feel like it next week. Or the week after. This week, though, if you don't cap, you miss out on the lore. Next week, you feel like doing a lot, but you're capped; you're limited to how much you can get.

Which is why...

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

I still would rather they just raised the cap every week and removed the reset altogether.

So instead of going from 450/450 on a Monday to 0/450 after reset rinse repeat,
you go from 450/450 or say 230/450 to 450/900 or 230/900 and then 900/1350 and like 460/1350, that way you are always in a position to "catch up" as you have the ability to get the maximum amount of tomes as everyone else currently playing for that tome cycle and you still have the time gating its just not punishing anyone for taking a week off.

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I love this system.

I don't really mind the tomestones but the thing is that people who started late and just caught up can't really catch up because of the cap. There's also the Midas loot system which is also time-gated. Although there are crafted gear which you can overmeld, which could be better for raid content...

I'd say another problem is that the content involved is getting rather stale I guess, especially expert dungeons being only 2 every patch.

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Originally Posted by PotatoWafflez

I still would rather they just raised the cap every week and removed the reset altogether.

So instead of going from 450/450 on a Monday to 0/450 after reset rinse repeat,
you go from 450/450 or say 230/450 to 450/900 or 230/900 and then 900/1350 and like 460/1350, that way you are always in a position to "catch up" as you have the ability to get the maximum amount of tomes as everyone else currently playing for that tome cycle and you still have the time gating its just not punishing anyone for taking a week off.

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This person right here has a good idea of how it should be done.

I really dont get why every major patch we get a new type of tomestone that gets evenrually faded out if it does the same thing the old tomrstone before it does but with new stuff that truly just gets put in other currencies as it gets faded out....it seems pretty insane that they keep doing this, is no reason for them to keep doing this, but meh the games made a point of this. as far as the grind it hasnt changed, now we have less dungeons to do for the same rewards every new patch cycle. But i can see this as a way of them trying to deter us from doing expert only for capping, attempts like diadem and feast to give us something else to do to cap tomes seems to be what theyre hinting at really. but still why we keep getting new tomestones if they could just dump the old lore gear in the eso pot and drop prices next patch??

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

Oh, so this is really about wanting the top gear to come from harder content?
SE already holds back tome gear by making the upgrade items exclusive to raids until a patch later. I don't see how keeping the top gear in hard content only will make things less repetitive as it would shrink the list of content worth running at any one time.

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No, its about feeling like I actually did something to deserve the gear. Expert dungeons are not "expert" at all. They are way to easy. And repeating them for months is so mind numbing.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

I really dont get why every major patch we get a new type of tomestone .....

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They likely cycle tomes out to prevent people from hoarding the higher tome and being able to instantly buy multiple new equips when a patch hits.

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Originally Posted by Elky

No, its about feeling like I actually did something to deserve the gear. Expert dungeons are not "expert" at all. They are way to easy. And repeating them for months is so mind numbing.

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Then it would seem that your problem is more with the overall low difficulty of XIV than with tomestones themselves.

that is a good answer, that applies to the one job only player base but i sort of tend to try to level and gear as many as possible, and even then it would take far beyond the patch cycle even with a 2 pieces jump start to do, but you do have a point most definitely. To me it just seems like sort of a waste of assets to keep inventing new tomes just cause you dont want someone to have the new weapon first week, then spend another 10 weeks getting the rest of the set anyway of course, this last patch cycle they did away with that with the seven weeks of midas to obtain the weapon regardless, so now I'm at a loss why theyre worried about getting a body piece day one

https://i.4cdn.org/v/1462335547357.jpg

If it weren't for me going on a hunt spree for my anima, I would of burned out on Lore grinding. Also, Vath is easy 15 lore per day if it helps. Moogle one next patch will probably do Lore unless they're more for the crafter/gatherers.

Only have one job and two more items before finishing but I'm glad the end is close. Only dreading 3.4 and yet another gear progression grind...

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

https://i.4cdn.org/v/1462335547357.jpg

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you made my day! LMAO awesome depiction

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

https://i.4cdn.org/v/1462335547357.jpg

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Replace "Neverreap" with "The Antitower" and you just described the last few days of my life

its really relative the pc was 3.0 roullette and antitower is 3.2 roullette for sure

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Originally Posted by Elky

No, its about feeling like I actually did something to deserve the gear. Expert dungeons are not "expert" at all. They are way to easy. And repeating them for months is so mind numbing.

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They aren't meant to be, and you don't have to repeat them to cap lore.

Give Savage a try. You may feel more like you earned your gear.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

so now I'm at a loss why theyre worried about getting a body piece day one

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Because the raids are balanced around the gear they expect people to have going into it. If they have to expect people having one or more pieces of the brand spanking new tome armor right off the bat then they have to take that into account when balancing the new raid they release at the same time. That means tuning them higher, and we all saw where that got us in Gordias Savage.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

They aren't meant to be, and you don't have to repeat them to cap lore.

Give Savage a try. You may feel more like you earned your gear.



Because the raids are balanced around the gear they expect people to have going into it. If they have to expect people having one or more pieces of the brand spanking new tome armor right off the bat then they have to take that into account when balancing the new raid they release at the same time. That means tuning them higher, and we all saw where that got us in Gordias Savage.

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I honeslty feel like gordias was tuned to the full set (210), which wouldnt mean a whole lot with an extra piece at launch but despite that I agree....sort of. Im looking at class adjustments as well, ie:tank 'adjustments'(after the fact) when it comes to ideas. It seems like they want to use i level as a reference but is it really accurate? And some artificial wait period based on the last raid(7 week wait for tome weapon? are you kidding me) was defininitely based on gordias clear times with a buffer zone, but does it really matter ultimately? want raid gear weapons to be the best, not only are they dyable, but give them a keeper's hymn at the cost of 1 page manifesto that lets you reset the stats. There good best weapon, non raiders get to grind harder for relic and everyone waits 2 months for a sub par tome weapon