Request: Remove iLVL requirement for undersized party or pre-made groups

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

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Gathering mats and making a party finder for someone to craft for you isn't hard.

Made a full tank 220 set without spending a dime. At worst you would have to tip someone, the only even remotely hard material is the frost cotton bolls/smith ore/etc, and most people should be able to afford that if they can't gather as it's hardly super expensive. There's literally no excuse for someone to not be able to get crafted 220s with how incredibly easy they are aside from laziness, they use most of the same mats as level 55 gear for goodness sake! >_>

Also I'll come into a thread if I want, I'm just pointing out that this thread has been nothing but 4 pages of the same people saying the same things over and over. There's no reason for it to continue, the lvl requirement isn't going to go anywhere.

Also:

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Weekly b-rank hunt bill yields 100 centurio seals.
Daily trash hunt bills yield 110 centurio seals.

That's 870 centurio seals without touching a or s ranks.

A full set of 170 gear costs what? 920 seals? How is that not a viable upgrade method? Because it takes a week of play to accomplish?

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Crafting rant aside, this is also true. You can also get a full esoteric set in less than a week too which would set you at i200 and good enough for all content in the game that has a requirement. Heck, even less than a day if you really commit....

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

I don't think removing the Ilvl for premade and undersized is a good idea, but I would like to tone it down somehow: a friend of mine just reached 60 a few weeks ago but she couldn't do any dungeon because it required 170 at minimum (despite the first dungeon drops 160 loot and...wait why does the roulette is locked at 170 if the very first loot is 160? -Mindblown-).

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That's another issue, and a misstep in the ilvl progression. In 2.x, items from a dungeon always gave you an ilvl high enough to enter the next tier.
Amdapor Keep/Sirius/Copperbell/Haukke = ilvl 60 gear -> City of Amdapor/Brayflox HM/Halatali HM : 55 required and drop 70, etc...

Here, there is a really steep progression from Fractal/Neverreap to Sirius HM/Arboretum.

In fact the whole ilvl range has been a mess because they had to separate dungeons from normal raids from savage raids...

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Originally Posted by aesteval

Weekly b-rank hunt bill yields 100 centurio seals.
Daily trash hunt bills yield 110 centurio seals.

That's 870 centurio seals without touching a or s ranks.

A full set of 170 gear costs what? 920 seals? How is that not a viable upgrade method? Because it takes a week of play to accomplish?

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I think you, along with most of the other people that are bashing this idea. Never have I, or anyone else really, supporting this idea said that you can't gear up newbies in a relatively short time. What we are suggesting is that if the group is fully pre-made(you and the 7 other people you're entering with understand the situation) why should it be necessary to have the DF required iLVL? You're not imposing this handicap onto some random person who had no say in it. All 8 of you understand and consent to this situation.


Taking this into the perspective of the step-stone gearing approach, why shouldn't I and two other friends be able to take our 4th friend into high level dungeons and gear them up quickly if we so choose? Perhaps we don't want to spend hours grinding middle dungeons for tomestones or XXXX amount of gil on crafted gear. If we are choosing to help that friend by sacrificing our time and taking on the handicap of effectively 3 manning a dungeon, I don't see why we shouldn't be able to do that.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Gathering mats and making a party finder for someone to craft for you isn't hard.

Made a full tank 220 set without spending a dime. At worst you would have to tip someone, the only even remotely hard material is the frost cotton bolls/smith ore/etc, and most people should be able to afford that if they can't gather as it's hardly super expensive. There's literally no excuse for someone to not be able to get crafted 220s with how incredibly easy they are aside from laziness, they use most of the same mats as level 55 gear for goodness sake! >_>

Crafting rant aside, this is also true. You can also get a full esoteric set in less than a week too which would set you at i200 and good enough for all content in the game that has a requirement. Heck, even less than a day if you really commit....

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The question isn't the difficulty, it is necessity. Why is it necessary to put up these roadblocks to new players that have older players willing to carry them?

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Game feature? Item levels were never a thing in the past because it wasn't possible to be nearly 100 item levels above a dungeon! Once the gear got too strong they added item level restrictions and requirements to keep the game balanced. This wasn't a "feature" as much as it was a lack of features. And undersized parties were not even possible until the release of Heavensward -- you always needed a FULL party to start any dungeon.

Sorry, but so far your entire argument seems horribly flawed and your only defense is convenience. You've chosen to ignore the obvious abuse that this system could get in favour of shamless promotion. Basically, you're trading game balance for convenience. You won't get anywhere if you just look at one side of the argument, so at least address concerns when you respond instead of burying your head in the sand.But it actually DOES! What stops a level 30 from joining a level 60 on a high level dungeon? Oh right, minimum level! What stops an undergeared monk joining on that Coil of Bahamut run? Oh wait! minimum item level! And you basically admitted in the same paragraph that you were forced to upgrade their gear to get in. Guess what? That's the whole point of the system!

Pretending it doesn't do anything doesn't mean it doesn't do anything.

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A level 30 can't possibly get into a level 60 dungeon due the level requirement, it has nothing to do with the item level requirement.

Additionally, I think perhaps I phrased the comment about carrying in a manner that wasn't clear. Let me try again.

Scenario A) A given dungeon requires iLVL 200 to enter, four players queue at random and get in. Player Y enters with iLVL 230 gear, but presses 1 button and is semi-afk the whole time. The rest of the group is carrying that player.
Scenario B) A given dungeon requires iLVL 200 to enter, four friends queue up together, but player Z only has iLVL 180 gear. Player Z does his best rotation and works hard the whole dungeon. Clearly he doesn't contribute as much as the remaining three, but he does contribute and is carried but not in a necessarily negative way.

Both situations the person is being carried. Scenario A is what we all hate about the concept of "carrying", Scenario B involves "carrying" but I don't see anything wrong with Player Z who is trying, just undergeared and with friends who are willing to accept that handicap...

So first, you make this long post about how this feature would benefit people who just want a challenge, and now, it finally ends up as "I want to be able to carry people".
So, again, please, no, because it would allow high geared players to carry undergeared people.

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Originally Posted by Xavikon

Scenario B) A given dungeon requires iLVL 200 to enter, four friends queue up together, but player Z only has iLVL 180 gear. Player Z does his best rotation and works hard the whole dungeon. Clearly he doesn't contribute as much as the remaining three, but he does contribute and is carried but not in a necessarily negative way.

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Considering that the only content that requires ilvl200+ are Midas and Seph EX, no, at 180, you don't contribute, you're just swinging your weapon around, and will be killed comes the first big AoE. And you don't learn a fight when you're dead for the most part.

Besides, if he's only 180, why don't his friends bring him to Gordias ? Why don't they kill Ravana together ? Why don't they hike a little in the void Ark ? Or do some expert roulette to buy i200 and i230 gear ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So first, you make this long post about how this feature would benefit people who just want a challenge, and now, it finally ends up as "I want to be able to carry people".

Considering that the only content that requires ilvl200+ are Midas and Seph EX, no, at 180, you don't contribute, you're just swinging your weapon around, and will be killed comes the first big AoE. And you don't learn a fight when you're dead for the most part.

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I never suggested that I wanted this for people who wanted a challenge. This feature never was required for overgeared players from challenging something at a lower iLVL. I gave examples to prove that the DF iLVL was not a strict requirement for completing the content.


Also, thank you for taking the most literal of examples, when what I gave was a hypothetical. Replace i200 with i80, or i90, or i140. It doesn't matter, you're lack of understanding a hypothetical scenario makes it impossible for me to convey the reason for this request.

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Originally Posted by Xavikon

Also, thank you for taking the most literal of examples, when what I gave was a hypothetical. Replace i200 with i80, or i90, or i140. It doesn't matter, you're lack of understanding a hypothetical scenario makes it impossible for me to convey the reason for this request.

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Replace it with what you want and most of the time, you'd still end up with unavoidable damage that will wreck people who don't meet the HP threshold.

Have too low HP, you'll die in Dusk Vigil the first time the final boss dive on you, you'll die in the Vault from the first Altar Pyre, etc...

And, again, if the person if low on gear, it means s/he still have other content to do, why skip it ? At each ilvl they is content that you have access to and that gives you enough gear for the next tier of content, and so on...

I undestand the rason of this request, and it's still "I want to be able to carry undergeared people". No, you shouldn't be able to.

my 2 cent...

I can live with the ilevel drop in ARR content for premade parties, if the average ilevel is higher then the min required ilevel. In both synced and unsynced, but the average ilevel has to beat the "required ilevel" after the sync.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I can live with the ilevel drop in ARR content for premade parties, if the average ilevel is higher then the min required ilevel. In both synced and unsynced, but the average ilevel has to beat the "required ilevel" after the sync.

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If you're a fresh lvl 50 player, by doing your job quests, you can gain a full i90 set of armor. By doing the Hard Mode primals, you can gain an i90 relic weapon. By doing the dungeons you already have access to (And since you're a fresh lvl50, these are new content for you), you can gather enough poetics to be ilvl130, giving you acces to everything in ARR.

Why would you want to skip all of this in a game where people already complain that we don't have enough content to do ?

I forgot to mention that the unsync opion should be locked behind the completion of a duty.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you're a fresh lvl 50 player, by doing your job quests, you can gain a full i90 set of armor. By doing the Hard Mode primals, you can gain an i90 relic weapon. By doing the dungeons you already have access to (And since you're a fresh lvl50, these are new content for you), you can gather enough poetics to be ilvl130, giving you acces to everything in ARR.

Why would you want to skip all of this in a game where people already complain that we don't have enough content to do ?

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And how does your argument affect mine? I see no context.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

And how does your argument affect mine? I see no context.

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Because, in ARR, the only way you shouldn't have the required ilvl and had to rely on an "average party ilvl" would be because you skipped content. Why would you defend skipping content ?

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I forgot to mention that the unsync opion should be locked behind the completion of a duty.

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If so, what's the point ? If it's not to carry first timers, why do you want that option for unscyned parties ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because, in ARR, the only way you shouldn't have the required ilvl and had to rely on an "average party ilvl" would be because you skipped content. Why would you defend skipping content?

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It's not like skipping content, but it makes it easier to carry someone...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If so, what's the point ? If it's not to carry first timers, why do you want that option for unscyned parties ?

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I never said, i want or demand it. Don't juggle my words.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

my 2 cent...

I can live with...

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I just suggested that this could be a solution for easier carries.
I just thought about the problem from OP and had a idea for that without skipping the whole content.
But someone tries to start a witch-hunt.

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Originally Posted by Xavikon

I think you, along with most of the other people that are bashing this idea.

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Apologies, but I'm not commenting on the grander topic at hand. I just became sidetracked by something that came up during it. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Legion88

It's not like skipping content, but it makes it easier to carry someone...

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No, it's not. Joining an i50 player with your i200 character in Wanderer's Palace is easy carry. Joining him in Final Coil is skipping a whole bunch of content.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I never said, i want or demand it. Don't juggle my words.

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Indeed, you didn't. But I still don't see what's the link between locking undersized behind completion and what the OP want.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Replace it with what you want and most of the time, you'd still end up with unavoidable damage that will wreck people who don't meet the HP threshold.

Have too low HP, you'll die in Dusk Vigil the first time the final boss dive on you, you'll die in the Vault from the first Altar Pyre, etc...

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To be fair, i've seen DF players with awful ilvl gears in dusk vigil and the aery like using ilvl 50 and 70s gears.. I healed both of them and they need extra care to stay alive.. But it is still doable..

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you're a fresh lvl 50 player, by doing your job quests, you can gain a full i50 set of armor. By doing the Hard Mode primals, you can gain an i90 relic weapon.

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Fix it for you..

I also disagree with the idea of making lower tier gears obsolete, more or less if the idea is implemented, there are less reasons in having low lv gears exist unless for desynth or glamours..

Actually, after HW, the ARR job quests are giving out the i50 set AND i90 with the 45 and 50 quests so...yeah, a player just coming into the game would get a(n almost full) i90 set just by reaching 50.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Fix it for you..

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Go level an ARR job lvl 50 and enjoy your mythology set as reward for your job quests.
You can unfix your fix.

That's what happens when your release an expansion.