Feeding in the Feast for Esos

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If you do punish these players. You should also consider punishing players who win traded to gain rank as well.

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nobody win trades to gain rank anymore that ended when sr released and you cant wintrade in feast

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

So which is it?

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Being punished for something legal and ruining someones game experience are two different things for me.

Only because you (as in anyone, not you personally) can exploit it, it does not mean it's "legal" by any stretch. It just shows that devs were short sighted. And if it hurts and/or offends others (as many are implying in this thread), then there's no reason to condone it.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Only because you (as in anyone, not you personally) can exploit it, it does not mean it's "legal" by any stretch. It just shows that devs were short sighted. And if it hurts and/or offends others (as many are implying in this thread), then there's no reason to condone it.

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Well exploits are being used in law too and this is a game where people pay for being able to play it the way they prefer it. You obviously cannot make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If you do punish these players. You should also consider punishing players who win traded to gain rank as well.

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That guy whined for months because he wanted the glamour and never gave a fuck about pvp and was spamming on the forum to remove rank restrictions since HW (or even before, dunno)
"i pvped for 7 weeks and i'm only r18"
I just can't take what he says seriously :v
Tell me are you afraid to get reported because you are farming esos/lore naked ?

I don't pvp but I'm a 222 smn, how much lore and eso do you get per loss or win? so I can become one of those ignorant leeches as well. ( not everyone cares about pvp rank, especially a pver)

I think removing esos from ranked would be best.

I appreciate that this is being taken seriously! As someone who plays this game essentially to solely pvp, it has become incredibly disheartening when I get groups with healers who won't heal, or other roles who simply won't participate, to ruin the match for everyone and subsequently lose ranking and time over it. I love the feast and the concept behind it, so thank you to the development team for that!

With rewards on the line soon enough, I feel this is important to curb early and again I appreciate the response on this matter, so thank you Zhexos!

Would it be possible to remove lore/esos from losing teams and double the winning team's gains? Keep wolf marks and XP the same. I feel at least if people wanted to pvp to do these things and cap that way, this would keep people interested and have them playing every match with much more on the line!

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Originally Posted by Sherufanir

I appreciate that this is being taken seriously! As someone who plays this game essentially to solely pvp, it has become incredibly disheartening when I get groups with healers who won't heal, or other roles who simply won't participate, to ruin the match for everyone and subsequently lose ranking and time over it. I love the feast and the concept behind it, so thank you to the development team for that!

With rewards on the line soon enough, I feel this is important to curb early and again I appreciate the response on this matter, so thank you Zhexos!

Would it be possible to remove lore/esos from losing teams and double the winning team's gains? Keep wolf marks and XP the same. I feel at least if people wanted to pvp to do these things and cap that way, this would keep people interested and have them playing every match with much more on the line!

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The double thing won't happen I think, but removing them in general might be the better way to go.

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Originally Posted by Kaylon

Being punished for something legal and ruining someones game experience are two different things for me.

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Being (ill)legal and being punished are not mutually exclusive to each other. You're not fine with people ruining the game for other people, but you're fine with allowing them to do so, that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

If you do punish these players. You should also consider punishing players who win traded to gain rank as well.

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They already changed match making so you can't do it by language settings. All that's left is pair your matches based on rank and it's good to go.

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Originally Posted by papichulo123

just get rid of esos in ranked matches

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Could they not just remove any reward for any player who drops, or perhaps I'm not understanding the issue.

Keep the Eso's and rewards. As soon as people learn you will be reported and punished they'll stop risking their accounts for 20 eso pops. It's not like Seal Rock where you can get largely undetected for lack of a contribution. Now it's only 4 players so it won't be the risk, sure some will still do it, but they'll risk getting banned overly a few measly Eso's. People need rewards to keep them motivated.

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Originally Posted by Kaylon

Well exploits are being used in law too and this is a game where people pay for being able to play it the way they prefer it. You obviously cannot make everyone happy.

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- "Please don't be a d*ck."
- "Nothing physically prevents me to."

You should understand why people with empathy and respect for others consider this argument completly absurd.
You are responsible for you own actions. Blaming the possibilities of the system to justify your behavior, which also affects other people, isn't a valid thing to say in a friendly and socially driven environment which is a MMORPG.

This isn't "Avoid fiscal taxes - The Game" or "Be the best at being the worst for others - The Game". There's an etiquette to follow. If you don't, you won't fit in the community, and other people will let you know that the hard way. The GM statement just confirms it.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

So which is it?

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Both. as in it should be fine for a 4 player team to go in and suicide for esos. It doesn't punish anybody, it actually rewards the winners with fast wins and losers with fast esos.

And btw, happy april fools.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

Could they not just remove any reward for any player who drops, or perhaps I'm not understanding the issue.

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The issue is currently that there are players queueing into solo queue without any intent to participate. This way the match is over fast. Win or lose you get 20 esos and 10 lore so they feel this is the fastest way to farm it. In turn this ruins the game for 3 other players who are trying to rank up or just play.

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Originally Posted by Kaylon

Evening,

i don't see the reason why players participating in this should be punished, for the simple reason of it being obvious!! before that it would offer an easy chance to farm esos. Especially when the team implements a new relic quests which requires ton of esos, players will ofc develop a strat to get their relic quick, resulting in using strats like this.

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It's harassment if it's being done on purpose. What if you are on an opposing side in which the random that joined has no intention of trying to win because they just want to lose.

So you have on person enter a random with 3 others, and the 3 want to win, but the 1 doesn't so they just let the other team of 4 people trying kill them. By doing this they are causing harassment because when you enter DF to play Feast you are saying "I want to play competitive pvp" but then upon entering they are doing nothing other than what can be considered trolling.

Who is really at fault here? The players or SE? SE have made the mistake in allowing PvE items come from a PvP environment. Not only this they have allowed ESO PvP farming to be 'possibly' the most time effective way to farm. PvE'ers want to gain ESO's fast to upgrade their Anima's so of course their going to do it the quickest way they can find.

SE have made the mistake of integrating PvP and PvE environments/loot. Its not the first time they have made such a mistake. Cough, Diadem was the integration of Battle and Gathering content. Another instance where trolling was heavily shown and content experience ruined for the end users. The difference of course was that players punished themselves and no punishment was issued by SE. So i think it would be extremely unfair to punish those that are farming ESO in PvP.

Imo I dont think there should be a punishment for the players when the fault is in the Dev team being short sighted. They introduced a relic step which needed a lot of eso's this isn't harassment on the players part. How do you feel harassed for winning quickly, its not a malicious act its just simply the easiest and quickest way to farm eso's. This isnt the first or the last time this will happen tbh.

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Originally Posted by Redmaiden

Who is really at fault here? The players or SE?

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Both, tbh. I could almost justify the players if this were specifically for the pre-made Feast matches, but it also leaks into the singles which have enough problems conceptually and don't really need random players just running off and killing themselves. I understand the logic of implementing tomestones into PVP, to encourage PVE players to also try out PVP... but I don't think they went about it the right way. I think it'd be pretty reasonable to only include tomestones if it's your first time in there - maybe just have a quest you complete after finishing a Feast match that gives you some tomestones. That way people will try out Feast but not suicide themselves constantly just for faster tomes per minute. Or, as others suggested, remove them all together.

I think Eso and Lores as reward (whether you win or lose) are good incentives to participate.

It probably what got people participating in Seal Rock, and got people participating in The Feast. That being said, I don't think that should be changed. I can't condone the whole "feeding for farming" behavior, but I don't want the abusers ruining and end up punishing the rest of us who play fairly, especially those who legitimately participate for Eso/Lores.

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Originally Posted by Redmaiden

Who is really at fault here? The players or SE?

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What do you mean who's really at fault? That's like saying, well that shop keep left his super awesome chair outside unattended after watching. I think It's mine now.

So, dude left his stuff out. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be charged for stealing when you take it. You don't steal things, period. So, regardless of what the situation is you don't take things that aren't yours. The shop keep shouldn't have to lock up his chair. Should he have though? Maybe. Are you still a thief? Yes.

Solo queing into content that is meant to be competative PvP with the intention of throwing the match to gain currency faster is an exploit, period. It's also a grave waste of other people's time who may actually be trying to participate in said content. It would be the same as if you got times for wiping 5 times in Alex and people just qued up and suicided because it would be faster.

The latest is healers who pretend to try, but don't really so you lose quickly.

Had a WHM earlier stand there casting holy instead of healing. He said that he was trying to stun them off of him; right.

Had another WHM stand there and cast Medica (not even medica 2) when only a BLM was being focused, rest of the party was full HP. He then proceeded to cast Cure - no, not Cure 2, but Cure, when the BLM was at 40% HP and being heavily focused.

Things like this could easily be dismissed as "oh sorry, i'm new", or "I'm just bad, sorry". Get real though, it's no different than throwing a match by not healing.

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Originally Posted by Redmaiden

Who is really at fault here?

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The players. The one exploiting this. It is their action that caused this. So it's obviously their fault.

The reward is a good incentive to get people coming, and I for one, don't want that changed. I'd rather have few extra newbies in Seal Rock, instead of Seal Rock never happening because there's never enough people.

Take away Lore/Esos from the PVP, and you can sure as hell see a LOT less people participating in this.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

The latest is healers who pretend to try, but don't really so you lose quickly.

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I think you're underestimating how bad some healers can be. To this day I've had healers in lvl 50 roulette who will do single target Cure 3 and random Medicas (I, not II) when I'm the only one getting hit. It's definitely possible to do what you describe, but I wouldn't rule out them just being bads unfortunately.

The people defending this are a microcosm of what's wrong with society today lmao. SE's mistake was having faith in a player base to actually be ethical, considerate and respectful of one another's time, goals and generally speaking each others interest in group events. They should have anticipated that the majority of the player base is selfish and could not care less about what other people's goals are so long as their own goal is met. It's less of a problem in PVE since it does not reward failure and therefore even if the individuals within the group's goal for the event aren't necessarily the same they will still in the end align in that it will depend upon successful completion of the event. But the minute you have rewards no matter the outcome you get this garbage you see now in pvp.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I think removing esos from ranked would be best.

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Given their track record I'm pretty sure this is too simple and elegant of a solution for SE.

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Originally Posted by Redmaiden

Who is really at fault here?

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The players. They're queueing with the intent to ruin the content for 3 others so they can get what they want. It's no different than queueing up for a piece of content, refusing to participate, and expecting rewards while everyone else does the work.

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Originally Posted by TheQueen

How do you feel harassed for winning quickly, its not a malicious act its just simply the easiest and quickest way to farm eso's..

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It's not about winning quickly. This happens in solo queue, I don't choose who my teammates are. They're just people who queue without any intention of actually playing. I play the feast for fun, and it's very hard to stay motivated or continue to enjoy it when my team has one person throwing the match intentionally, heck it's not even fun when the other team has people throwing the match. I like the rush of it all, I like the constant challenge of each match, I love the strategizing on the spot and the infinitely high skill ceiling to improve constantly and be challenged constantly. I don't like when 1 person isn't going to participate on my team, and I'm sure many others feel the same way. There is a playerbase that loves the pvp in this game, and we want to enjoy it, like you might enjoy your raids, dungeons, diadem, etc. And I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate players afking to sabotage your content either.

If you really want to equate it to pve, imagine going into a trial, and your healers just afk, while still expecting the rewards to come. It's not fun for anyone involved and it's very disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Sherufanir

It's not about winning quickly. This happens in solo queue, I don't choose who my teammates are. They're just people who queue without any intention of actually playing. I play the feast for fun.

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The issue with this statement is. What if the players who are doing it, are doing it because its fun and amusing and the easiest way for them to get what they want. Maybe they should increase PvE rewards instead or make fates give 20 eso and lore.

Just reading about it is both fun and amusing to me, because its what i've been saying all along. PvP isn't really fun, its very unbalanced in my opinion. Its only really fun if you play the overpowered classes.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

The issue with this statement is. What if the players who are doing it, are doing it because its fun and amusing and the easiest way for them to get what they want. Maybe they should increase PvE rewards instead or make fates give 20 eso and lore.

Just reading about it is both fun and amusing to me, because its what i've been saying all along. PvP isn't really fun, its very unbalanced in my opinion. Its only really fun if you play the overpowered classes.

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PVP isn't for everyone. If you're queueing for feast you should play with your team to the best of your ability, win or lose. That's great!

If you're queueing for it with the intent of afking and that is the part you find fun and amusing, that's no different than trolling because you are ruining the content for your teammates in a team based cooperative game mode.

As for only really fun if you play the overpowered classes, I play a dark knight, which is considered by many to be the worst. I still enjoy it greatly!

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Originally Posted by Sherufanir

PVP isn't for everyone. If you're queueing for feast you should play with your team to the best of your ability, win or lose. That's great!

If you're queueing for it with the intent of afking and that is the part you find fun and amusing, that's no different than trolling because you are ruining the content for your teammates in a team based cooperative game mode.

As for only really fun if you play the overpowered classes, I play a dark knight, which is considered by many to be the worst. I still enjoy it greatly!

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Its not really trolling unless your stopping the progress of the other team.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Its not really trolling unless your stopping the progress of the other team.

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How is intentionally losing a match, thus lowering the rank of your entire team, not stopping progress? I can't tell you how many qualifiers I've lost today alone because of healers not trying, giving up halfway through the match, or just AFKing completely.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

It's less of a problem in PVE since it does not reward failure and therefore even if the individuals within the group's goal for the event aren't necessarily the same they will still in the end align in that it will depend upon successful completion of the event. But the minute you have rewards no matter the outcome you get this garbage you see now in pvp.

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This ^.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You can't create a system that can be exploited and not expect someone, somewhere, to exploit it. The fact that PvP has had such a long standing track record of exactly this problem, all the way back to the Secure days, means that they should have been fully aware of it and anticipated it to happen in Feast. I understand that they haven't fixed this problem because they want to secure casual queues for the sake of keeping the game mode alive, but the negative effect that tome farmers have on the PvP environment is arguably much worse than the queue times we stand to suffer if Tomes are completely removed from the game mode, especially in the case of Ranked matches wherein you are already rolling the dice just by having a random party.

I've already said this in the Feast Discussion Thread, but I do firmly believe that tomes should be restricted to wins only. You get nothing for a loss in PvE. PvP should mirror this sentiment, especially in ranked matches. If they are concerned over keeping incentives for casual queues, then there are other options available than just tomes. Vastly expanding the selection available from PvP vendors to include minions, housing items, crafting supplies, tome items (such as those sold by Rowena), GC items (cross GC items included), etc. would be a great start and appeal to far more people.

>2 weeks after punish/lower eso reward
"Why is the queue so long? Please fix!"

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Originally Posted by Sainya

>2 weeks after punish/lower eso reward
"Why is the queue so long? Please fix!"

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Better to have long queues than fake queues that are filled with people who couldn't care less about trying in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

Could they not just remove any reward for any player who drops, or perhaps I'm not understanding the issue.

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I like pvp a lot and actually It's (with my FC) the biggest reason to me for paying the game fee and keep playing.
I honestly woul feeld sad that SE should completely remove Tomes as fix for someone leaching, cause actually I'm capping my tomes and building my relic with them, but as PvPer :/

To me informing better the playerbase not interested on pvp but just on grinding that this is not allowed because it ruin other player experience should be a 1st step to do,
right after allow people to report for that, and if SE would be that nice could implement a punishment that put your Esos at something like -10.000

Or if they want to remove that, PLEASE just for the losing party and maybe in that case enhance a little the reward for the winners >.<

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Originally Posted by Sainya

>2 weeks after punish/lower eso reward
"Why is the queue so long? Please fix!"

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The feast is intended to have weekly rankings and be seen as competitive by the community as a whole with VERY limited rewards. Players who enjoy pvp would rather have longer queues than non-games.

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Originally Posted by Sainya

>2 weeks after punish/lower eso reward
"Why is the queue so long? Please fix!"

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Because those ppl you are trying so desperately to hold on to by dangling tomes at them, and who for the most part dont give two s**ts about pvp, are still gonna be here after they get the tomes they needed for their relic or glamour or whatever? Give me a break >.> Tomes didnt keep frontlines queues from breaching 15 and then 30 minutes a few weeks after the initial luster wore off and it wont be the reason Feast stays afloat assuming it is still salvageable. You either like to PVP or you dont its that simple. Those that do will keep pvping and those that arent into it wont after they get what they want.

i would much rather play with people who care about pvp and want to have a good match than people who don't.

i can guarantee that most others who truly like pvp feel the same. the more people playing who care only about the competition the better the health of the game becomes.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

How is intentionally losing a match, thus lowering the rank of your entire team, not stopping progress? I can't tell you how many qualifiers I've lost today alone because of healers not trying, giving up halfway through the match, or just AFKing completely.

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Are you talking about solo que?

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Originally Posted by Februs

You can't create a system that can be exploited and not expect someone, somewhere, to exploit it.

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They probably expected it, but underestimated how terrible and egocentric people are in the west.
Western people tends to be more inclined to think "if it's a benefit for me I should go for it, without having a consideration for others". Japanese people don't have that way of thinking... or, at least, it's a lot less frequent.

In Japan, tacit rules are very important and the society would hammer on you for not respecting them. This isn't the case in NA/EU where we need hard written rules to draw the limits.
As far as an allegory can go, if in Japan you were to see a line saying "do not cross", people won't cross it. EU/NA people need a physical wall preventing them from crossing.

It's a cultural thing. And probably one of the hardest ones to fight against.
Can't blame SE for that.