So, instead of people fighting about STR, why are they fighting about VIT?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

It's 0,45 i think.

And you get a lot more of main stats now.

@240 it's 782 Str + 1100 Vit = 1882 which is 846,9 AP from gear.

With slaying and Str = 1 AP it would be 1012. That's around 16,5%.

But this gap will close with time.

VIT is getting higher faster than STR. On ilvl 200 body it's 93 STR / 97 VIT, which is now 8% lower AP then before.
@240ilvl it's 131 STR / 142 VIT and only 6% lower then it would be before.

VIT/STR-gap grews by 1 every 10 ilvl, so the AP will tend towards the old values (latest, when they fix parry in 3.4/40.).

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So with current max gear tanks have less AP than previous tier gear

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

It's 0,45 i think.

And you get a lot more of main stats now.

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I don't think I am wrong, but let us suppose you are right, and it's 0.45 instead of 0.44

Does that really change the result of the changes? No, it does not, so it seems silly to argue about it.

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@240 it's 782 Str + 1100 Vit = 1882 which is 846,9 AP from gear.

With slaying and Str = 1 AP it would be 1012. That's around 16,5%.

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You are going to need to be more specific on what you are talking about, as no one knows what items you are referring to here.

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But this gap will close with time.

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The gap will never close because the way AP is calculated intentionally makes it impossible for the max amount of AP when 1 STR = 1 AP. When you have a ratio of .44 / .44 and cost of points on items remain the same (meaning you can't add larger amounts of VIT or STR to them beyond what was possible before for items remains the same, there can never be a situation where the gap closes at each item level.

It will always be that you need 3 more points of VIT to get a full point of AP. It's a weird formula that if anything, makes it harder to balance tank DPS than before.

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VIT is getting higher faster than STR. On ilvl 200 body it's 93 STR / 97 VIT, which is now 8% lower AP then before.
@240ilvl it's 131 STR / 142 VIT and only 6% lower then it would be before.

VIT/STR-gap grews by 1 every 10 ilvl, so the AP will tend towards the old values (latest, when they fix parry in 3.4/40.).

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We have no idea how they will address parry so don't bet on that.

Also, that is an extra 4 points of VIT you pointed out. The tank is still only getting 1 point of AP because the system is not going to award fractions of AP. it rounds to whole numbers, and it rounds down. 1.76 AP means 1 AP.

That is why you don't see fractions in the damage you deal to enemies.

Thus the old way of stacking STR with the old STR = 1 AP formula will always have resulted in a higher AP. The divided weights between VIT and STR are too low to create a situation where the gap can be closed.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This makes no sense. WAR doesn't gain more eHP than PLD/DRK from turning on their tank stance, its equal. In fact, PLD/DRK recieve more effective healing from abilities than WAR does. We also lost effective potency on our self healing, meaning Equilibrium and Second Wind both got nerfed since they contribute less overall and definitely less relative to our increased health.

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Think about the way the tanks work. PLD and DRK are largely built around mitigation cooldowns, whereas WAR is built around having a higher HP pool to soak damage. Therefore yes, stacking VIT does have a more noticable impact on WAR survivability than for DRK and PLD, because these two tanks are about reducing the amount of damage with cooldowns and WARs are about soaking it up.

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Anyway, the real reason that they changed attributes around is to force all tanks into Fending accessories, something that a large amount of tanks weren't using and were considered near worthless compared to crafted and Slaying accessories. The devs intended for us to use these accessories they threw in literally every single patch and not do something completely non-intuitive for a tank (sacrifice health for damage), so they put us in a situation where there's no real point in using Slaying (the DPS you gain from better secondaries isn't even worth it since you lose so much health).

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This is another thing. If the devs wanted tanks to use fending over slaying, they should have realized they designed the end-game accessories incorrectly. To make a change that impacted tanks at all levels (especially low level ones) to address a design flaw with the accessories which were statted wrong was a mistake.

All they had to do was reverse STR and VIT values on fencing accessories so STR was equal to Slaying accessories. DPS would never have used them anyway due to parry being worthless over skill speed. It was not as big of a deal as they made it out to be.

Also, it seems odd that the designers want to eliminate build choice from the classes and make them super cookie cutter. Why do they even give us the option to spend stat points at level up? If they want us to only slot VIT they shouldn't be giving us a choice. This is probably the only MMO I've seen where you can spend stat points at level up, but there is only one logical choice because anywhere else is wasted. Normally when you spend points, it's because there is some build where INT or DEX is useful to a tank (example: Ragnarok Online where you can indeed build a mage tank, or an agi focused tank).

Looking at aspects of the game design like that, the designers seem like they are making band-aid fixes to deeper game mechanic issues they haven't dealt with.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

I don't think I am wrong, but let us suppose you are right, and it's 0.45 instead of 0.44

Does that really change the result of the changes? No, it does not, so it seems silly to argue about it.

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I don't think he was trying to argue, just help with a correction. Currently I have 893 str and 1243 vit in my gear. If the multiplier is 0.44, then I would have 939.84 AP. If it was 0.45, I would have 941.2. I have 941. I can't say with 100% confidence, but I'm pretty sure it is 0.45. If fact I believe SE has said this somewhere, but it's early and I'm not totally sure where.

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Originally Posted by Habien

I don't think he was trying to argue, just help with a correction. Currently I have 893 str and 1243 vit in my gear. If the multiplier is 0.44, then I would have 939.84 AP. If it was 0.45, I would have 941.2. I have 941. I can't say with 100% confidence, but I'm pretty sure it is 0.45. If fact I believe SE has said this somewhere, but it's early and I'm not totally sure where.

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I read somewhere that there is a base AP based on your level. I could track it down, but it's not worth arguing about since the end result is the same -- tanks lost a significant portion of the total AP they used to have, in an attempt by the devs to achieve several things which aren't actually being achieved by this change. Meanwhile playing a tank has become even more unfun because you can't contribute much to DPS (especially if you are a PLD) for no meaningful gain in survivavility, and low level tanks have threat problems because the formula impacts them the most.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Think about the way the tanks work. PLD and DRK are largely built around mitigation cooldowns, whereas WAR is built around having a higher HP pool to soak damage. Therefore yes, stacking VIT does have a more noticable impact on WAR survivability than for DRK and PLD, because these two tanks are about reducing the amount of damage with cooldowns and WARs are about soaking it up.

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WAR has 250 HP (in Defiance)
PLD has 200 HP (in Shield Oath)
Both take 100 damage
WAR has 150 HP
PLD has 120 HP
Both get a heal of 80
WAR has 246 HP
PLD has 200 HP

So, in this example, with equal VIT, both take the same relative damage based on their maximum health (both are at 60%) and PLD actually receives slightly more effective healing (if this were an ability it would actually be even worse for WAR, as both would receive the flat 80 heal). Giving both more health doesn't change this.

If we look at Thrill + Convo vs Shadowskin + Convo it's the same deal. VIT pot contribution same deal. etc. etc.

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All they had to do was reverse STR and VIT values on fencing accessories so STR was equal to Slaying accessories. DPS would never have used them anyway due to parry being worthless over skill speed. It was not as big of a deal as they made it out to be.

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Not entirely sure what you're saying here, but if you mean VIT = 1 AP / STR = 0 AP then that would've resulted in an increase of tank DPS which would've made them more OP than before. If that's not what you mean then you've lost me. Also every Fending piece doesn't have Parry on it.

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Also, it seems odd that the designers want to eliminate build choice from the classes and make them super cookie cutter. Why do they even give us the option to spend stat points at level up? If they want us to only slot VIT they shouldn't be giving us a choice. This is probably the only MMO I've seen where you can spend stat points at level up, but there is only one logical choice because anywhere else is wasted. Normally when you spend points, it's because there is some build where INT or DEX is useful to a tank (example: Ragnarok Online where you can indeed build a mage tank, or an agi focused tank).

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This is all an irrelevant tangent but basically I agree that there should be more build diversity, but when the only ones making that choice is tanks and every other job has simplified stats and gearing then tanks were what deviated from the norm. It also costed us large amounts of gil to do progression since pentamelds were so strong, whereas every other job could just use their main stat accessories and be fine.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

You are going to need to be more specific on what you are talking about, as no one knows what items you are referring to here. The gap will never close because the way AP is calculated intentionally makes it impossible for the max amount of AP when 1 STR = 1 AP. When you have a ratio of .44 / .44 and cost of points on items remain the same (meaning you can't add larger amounts of VIT or STR to them beyond what was possible before for items remains the same, there can never be a situation where the gap closes at each item level.

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It's the stats you'd have at ilvl 240. You're always going to have more vit than strength (and each gear gains more vit than it gains str for each ilvl increase).

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

It will always be that you need 3 more points of VIT to get a full point of AP. It's a weird formula that if anything, makes it harder to balance tank DPS than before.

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Balance tank dps in relation to who? Other tanks who share the same formula, or to actual dps classes (which honestly, shouldn't even be a discussion, tanks aren't supposed to be able to pump out comparable numbers to actual dps jobs)

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Think about the way the tanks work. PLD and DRK are largely built around mitigation cooldowns, whereas WAR is built around having a higher HP pool to soak damage. Therefore yes, stacking VIT does have a more noticable impact on WAR survivability than for DRK and PLD, because these two tanks are about reducing the amount of damage with cooldowns and WARs are about soaking it up.

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It's effective healing and effective hp. Higher hp (25% buff from defiance) doesn't mean much if healers need to heal more on a warrior (20% bonus healing received). And this is less effective heals received if we're looking at abilties like lustrate, tetra, essential dignity and azzsize.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

This is another thing. If the devs wanted tanks to use fending over slaying, they should have realized they designed the end-game accessories incorrectly. To make a change that impacted tanks at all levels (especially low level ones) to address a design flaw with the accessories which were statted wrong was a mistake.

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But why is a stat that's supposed to help with tanking wrong to begin with? That's what the change is adressing.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

All they had to do was reverse STR and VIT values on fencing accessories so STR was equal to Slaying accessories. DPS would never have used them anyway due to parry being worthless over skill speed. It was not as big of a deal as they made it out to be.

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Not all fending pieces have parry.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Also, it seems odd that the designers want to eliminate build choice from the classes and make them super cookie cutter. Why do they even give us the option to spend stat points at level up? If they want us to only slot VIT they shouldn't be giving us a choice. This is probably the only MMO I've seen where you can spend stat points at level up, but there is only one logical choice because anywhere else is wasted. Normally when you spend points, it's because there is some build where INT or DEX is useful to a tank (example: Ragnarok Online where you can indeed build a mage tank, or an agi focused tank).

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While I'm for choice builds to an extent, numerical stats are almost inconsequential in this regard when all it does is change numbers and not gameplay.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Looking at aspects of the game design like that, the designers seem like they are making band-aid fixes to deeper game mechanic issues they haven't dealt with.

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It's typically easier to take steps that make for a good foundation to build upon; their vit is going to increase much higher, not to mention there seems to be a disconnect on what we think this is supposed to be addressing in the first place (is it really a big problem that tanks aren't going to do comparable damage numbers to a dps job?) Like your below statement;

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

...in an attempt by the devs to achieve several things which aren't actually being achieved by this change. Meanwhile playing a tank has become even more unfun because you can't contribute much to DPS (especially if you are a PLD) for no meaningful gain in survivavility, and low level tanks have threat problems because the formula impacts them the most.

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What do you honestly think they were trying to achieve to begin with? Vitality was literally a dead stat for tanks, and they otherwise had no accessories dedicated to them and would instead go after DPS acessories. I mean from my perspective, I don't have trouble with low level aggro unless the dps is purposely going out of the way to rip aggro off me

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Meanwhile playing a tank has become even more unfun because you can't contribute much to DPS (especially if you are a PLD) for no meaningful gain in survivavility

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Alright, let's talk about DPS for tanks here. If you see fflogs, you will see tanks doing as low as 300dps and as high as 1.3k+dps. Why is that? Is it because of gear? Is it because of the nerf? Nah, time to time again, a large portion of the tank community do NOT know how to do their DPS, hence you see people just doing 300dps. Even cycling enmity comboes are going to do more than 300dps, which says a lot. The 20% AP drop is no biggie since they are tanks not DPS. And before you say "no meaning gain in survivability", SE tunes it right so that there is no full STR meta (where you want to get "better" secondary stats, they don't encourage it). DPS checks aren't that tough anymore. In short, git gud to all.

At ilevel 223 with i230 weapon.. What is the above average dps for the 3 tanks?

War - ?
Drk - ?
Pld - ?

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

At ilevel 223 with i230 weapon.. What is the above average dps for the 3 tanks?
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My 223 war with 230 relic can do around 1320-1340 dps in 3.5 mins on a dummy with food, vit party buff and vit potion

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Originally Posted by DGladius

My 223 war with 230 relic can do around 1320-1340 dps in 3.5 mins on a dummy with food, vit party buff and vit potion

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Which type of dummy ?

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Originally Posted by Falar

snip.

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A tank is a tank, and a dps is a dps, most of their abilities should be about maintaining hate, making sure their own faced isn't ripped off, and making sure other people's faces aren't getting ripped off. Literally next to no reason for a tank to even dps. I've played lots of mmos, the ones where tanks do crazy dps, are usually trash games that are badly balanced and barely fun. The games with an actual holy trinity (tanks tank, healers heal, dds dps) tend to be more thought out when it comes to DOTs/enfeebles, CCs, etc. Which is probably why XIV feels so hallow, it has the holy trinity but it doesn't make use of the things that make the holy trinity interesting as much (CC, enfeebles, we have dots, we have some cc but they are weak).

DPS shouldn't be an end all be all mechanic for all three jobs, instead there should be interesting things in every job that give it utility instead of dps, you see this is some jobs, AST dps isn't the best due to its card utility, brd can be the same outside of WM, but it needs to be taken further, so tanks don't just feel like a meatshield, and WAR doesn't just feel like a dps with lots of HP. Tank utility in XIV needs to be increased, DRK and PLD should have more increased utility for a trade off of lessened dps. SE just didn't think about the new meta all that much.

Unfortunately you are in the minority with that line of thought. You and many people make claim to this 'trinity' but we all know its not even that since there isn't, and mostly won't be an equal distribution of people in roles. 1 Tank 1 Healer 2 DPS? Ridiculous queue times for DPS?

DPS is popular for a good reason. Tanking and Healing alone is simply not fun for the vast majority of people. It simply does not get the job done, it only enables the possibility. I can tank or heal as hard as I can, but that won't mean the fight will be completed.

I don't mind for making the tanking and healing roles more complicated with additional jobs of CC and whatnot, but taking away all of our meaningful contribution for it will never be a worthwhile trade.

It's really best to not see the roles in such a narrow minded view of just 'tank' and just 'healer'.

A tank class is your frontline fighter who gathers the attention of his enemies, protects his allies by mitigating the pain and removing the threat themselves. DPS are dirty ninjas who use underhanded means to fight. Cowards~!

Also your obvious immersion breaking of GREATaxes and GREATswords doing 'nothing' against a foe.
I hit dragon with giant phantom sawblades of DEATH! (Fell Cleave)
Dragon doesn't flinch.

Dirty Ninja hits dragon with the hilt of his dagger.
Dragon explodes.


Wat.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

A tank is a tank, and a dps is a dps, most of their abilities should be about maintaining hate, making sure their own faced isn't ripped off, and making sure other people's faces aren't getting ripped off. Literally next to no reason for a tank to even dps. The games with an actual holy trinity (tanks tank, healers heal, dds dps) tend to be more thought out when it comes to DOTs/enfeebles, CCs, etc. Which is probably why XIV feels so hallow, it has the holy trinity but it doesn't make use of the things that make the holy trinity interesting as much (CC, enfeebles, we have dots, we have some cc but they are weak).

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The awful "trinity system" is garbage and I can't believe people still want to see it in game after game.

This is Final Fantasy, it just happens to be one they made into an MMO. Anything they can do to make it not just another generic MMORPG with the same tired, boring "trinity system" is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

A tank is a tank, and a dps is a dps, most of their abilities should be about maintaining hate, making sure their own faced isn't ripped off, and making sure other people's faces aren't getting ripped off. Literally next to no reason for a tank to even dps. I've played lots of mmos, the ones where tanks do crazy dps, are usually trash games that are badly balanced and barely fun.

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http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20080329145654

This is a Tank. Anyways, joking aside.

Tanks duty is to also deal enough damage to hold hate in the first place. Its not about just taunts, and just 'holding aggro'. You have to be the scariest biggest most intimidating dude in the fight. You have to be able to deal damage to do that. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. If tanks were giant walls with two shields, enemies would just walk around them and kill the real threats. "Taunts" are a poor concept, and in a good game would only work on humanoid enemies who can understand your language.

Anyways, DPS (some) should do even less damage then Tanks. However what they should have to compensate is utility and debuffs. Instead of doing high amounts of damage they should be making everyone else be able to deal more damage, like knowing where to hit an enemy in their weak points to lower their armor a lot so that everyone can hurt them easier.

That is how a good game is balanced. Just labeling classes as "Tank" "DPS" "Heal" is what I consider one of the laziest way to do it.

A Tanks weakness:
- Slower, needs support to buff his attack speed or haste.
- Doesn't make enemy take more damage, lack of debuffs and buffs.

DPS also have things like interrupts. In a good game, monsters have to be pulled slowly and with coordination, they are not just /giant/ health pools. Mages have to sleep and cc, scouts have to "interrupt" healing monsters or nobody can deal damage.

Basicly, they bread and buttered the roles so much people forgot how things used to be.


Roles:

Fighter:
High Single Target Physical Damage
High Melee AOE Damage
High Armor

These are warriors who usually fight from the front, through intimidation they lead charge into battle and attract the attention of enemies.



Scout:
High Single Target Physical Damage (yes, same as tanks.)
Med Armor
Poison (Weaken monsters to make them deal less damage.)
Physical Debuffs (Armorbreak; for example a Swashbuckler throwing a bomb at an armored golem to smash some of its armor.)
Interruption

((Some subclasses of scout sacrifice ST damage to gain AOE/even AOE interrupts and physical debuffs. Some are focused on poison.)))

These classes focus on interrupting enemy mages and healers. They also debuff the armor of classes to make all physical classes deal more damage. You can't even kill an enemy if there is no scout constantly interrupting the casting of healers or debuffing their healing.


Mage:
High Magical Single Target Damage
High Magical AOE Damage
Low Armor
Cures (Cures Arcane Effects.)
Buffs party against Arcane damage.

Ect ect ect, I can go on and on.

You can literally make roles and give them TONS of variety. However, it went the easy route. However to say that the games where X is X are bad, no. That is just idiotic :P

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Which type of dummy ?

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It doesn't matter what dummy it is. The damage done will be the same.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

At ilevel 223 with i230 weapon.. What is the above average dps for the 3 tanks?

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Let's just say that if you can clear A8S SSS reliably in i220-i225 (with or without i230 weapon), you are capable on doing 50%++ in fflogs which is already way better than average.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Let's just say that if you can clear A8S SSS reliably in i220-i225 (with or without i230 weapon), you are capable on doing 50%++ in fflogs which is already way better than average.

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Hmmm I barely made it on my warrior i223 on a8s sss, my timer left 2 secs

My a5s is 35 Sec timer left but I know I could do better

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Yeah, but then what's the reason of the STR accessories? It makes them obsolete, kinda how VIT was obsolete before 3.2 due to the DPS Checks required. This kinda needs to be addressed since they just flipped the table on it.

The way it was addressed, PLD lacked in damage numbers severely compared to the other tanks(which was an issue). VIT now being a part of the damage formula for tanks fixed the issue, at least. The problem I have is that STR should equal more damage output, and VIT would be more health like it was before; but it's not the case in 3.22. My suggestion would be VIT+STR would still be the equation, but STR dealing out a bit more damage would make a lot more sense to me.

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...? So... Dragoons and Monks don't use str acc's anymore? Or they just aren't important enough to recognize? LOL ;^)