tanks not using cooldowns?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I've been tanking since 2004. When did you start tanking in games?

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Great comeback xD

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKuS5_NZw30

/endsarcasm

There is no excuses not using your mitigation cd if you see ur hp drop pop a cd so the healer can heal ya and dps. Healer and tanks should try and i do mean try to maximize there mitgation cd proper usage and healing cds and dps output, it helps the raid/dungoen/trail/daily. If you can't try doing to dps or stance switch then please do main healing/tanking but even then you gotta maximize your mitigation cd usage and healing cd and dps output

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They had less HP; I also have a ton of experience. ;) Less HP means you had to learn to use your cooldowns more because you had much less soaking and padding to take damage. My tank gained almost 7k more health; which means I don't have to use cool-downs as much anymore.

Strength tanks were much more skilled then vitality tanks in almost every aspect; since they "HAD" to use cool-downs to survive. I feel like the vitality change lowered the skillcap for tanks.

I've been tanking since 2004. When did you start tanking in games?

This is all pretty common sense stuff too...

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This is a great example of how the more "experience" you have the worse you can be sometimes. Tanking in other games involves all kinds of different mechanics, stat weights, reliance on healers vs reliance on cooldowns, etc.

and no, this is not common sense stuff. Common sense would've made decisions based on how this game worked with all the factors, and if you had common sense and did that you'd come to pretty much the opposite of everything in that post. Sure, in 2004 on whatever game you're intent on bragging about it may have mattered, but here it didn't.

Your post reminds me of all the STR bards I've seen levelling up.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

Absolutely anticipation of known high damage times and if using a cooldown now means not having it then, save the cooldown. Absolutely agree.

There are so many tanks I see that just never use them. Saving them for a rainy day or something. Then when they hit 20% health it's like, here healer... There's all of my cooldowns. SAVE MEH! I think the cycling response is just a reaction to this "save for some unknown potentially sticky situation" mentality in some tanks. It is an effort to just get people used to using them.

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Typical bad tank that blows all of their cooldowns at 20%: "JESUS TANK THE WHEEL!"

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Strength tanks needed to use cooldowns a lot more then Vitality tanks.

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While tank with a lot of hp can survive longer, healer is healing for same amount of hp. if you start getting rekt for 2,5k auto-attacks each 3 sec, no matter how many HP you have, healer has to start healing immiedetely to make the healing even to dmg you recieve.

If you use cooldown, you will recieve only 1,8k auto-attacks each 3 sec, and healer don't have to pee their pants you won't get out of this alive, becuase he heals for more than you get on your chest.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

This is a great example of how the more "experience" you have the worse you can be sometimes. Tanking in other games involves all kinds of different mechanics, stat weights, reliance on healers vs reliance on cooldowns, etc.

and no, this is not common sense stuff. Common sense would've made decisions based on how this game worked with all the factors, and if you had common sense and did that you'd come to pretty much the opposite of everything in that post. Sure, in 2004 on whatever game you're intent on bragging about it may have mattered, but here it didn't.

Your post reminds me of all the STR bards I've seen levelling up.

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Uh.. well I am pretty sure every tank i've played in games have damage reduction temps similar to FFXIV. I mean its really really common; EVEN in Non-Linear Action MMOs warrior type classes have damage reduction moves. If you don't know that you haven't played much else.

Also; more health is a sponge; but less health makes you have to think about how much damage your tanking. That is common sense.

Don't see how you got bards mixed up with this; because that just sounds like stupidity to me.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

While tank with a lot of hp can survive longer, healer is healing for same amount of hp. if you start getting rekt for 2,5k auto-attacks each 3 sec, no matter how many HP you have, healer has to start healing immiedetely to make the healing even to dmg you recieve.

If you use cooldown, you will recieve only 1,8k auto-attacks each 3 sec, and healer don't have to pee their pants you won't get out of this alive, becuase he heals for more than you get on your chest.

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Of course; except when you have half the HP you had before you could actually see the spike and feel it a lot more. It made you have to worry about it more because if you didn't your dead. Now that you have a sponge you can see it; but you can also just not use it and get healed through it putting more stress on your healer.

After all; there wouldn't be a thread complaining about it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They had less HP; I also have a ton of experience. ;) Less HP means you had to learn to use your cooldowns more because you had much less soaking and padding to take damage. My tankgained almost 7k more health; which means I don't have to use cool-downs as much anymore.

Strength tanks were much more skilled then vitality tanks in almost every aspect; since they "HAD" to use cool-downs to survive. I feel like the vitality change lowered the skillcap for tanks.[/I][/B]

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There's a logic fallacy at work here but I can't put my finger on which one. Either way, while gimping your survivability to output max DPS through choice of gear was definitely proper play, it does not follow that it made STR tanks more skilled. Living dangerously kicked ass but it did not make me more skilled, or anybody else. There's also the fact that you're essentially the blessed fucking virgin when it comes to raiding or even midcore content, as you've so proudly proclaimed, so its obvious that you would not know that bosses hit like wet blankets last tier. Seriously, it was sad. There's nothing like tanking the A3S with the HP of an i170 fending tank.

This also explains why you believe cooldowns are no longer necessary, or less necessary. The change didn't lower the skillcap - it raised it. You still have to maximize DPS in all the ways you did before, shit doesn't hit like an empty bag of doritos, and now you have to pay more attention to enmity and stance dance more efficiently (though this is mostly thanks to content design and not any change to the tanks directly).

TLDR if you still think the VIT change made tanking current content proportionately easier, you're being willfully ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Are you somehow trying to insinuate that tanks have less of a need to use CDs now that Strength tanking isn't a thing anymore? Because that's not true at all.

Are you suggesting that higher HP means you have more wiggle room and can be more conservative with your cooldowns? Because that's actually kinda true, though you're not really going to meet that kind of threshold unless you go back 2-3 patches or an expansion.

Are you suggesting that a more aggressive playstyle that involves stance dancing more frequently will require more heavy cooldown usage to compensate for the lack of passive damage reduction from the tank stance? Because that's also true.

But if you are in any way insinuating that tanks do not need to use cooldowns in combat, you are incorrect.

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He's still clinging desperately to a now-dated viewpoint about vit vs. str tanking that is officially a dinosaur and never applied to him in the first place because he hasn't participated in any content with anything resembling a tank-buster, and thinks all of that is e-peenery and elitism, but then he goes and tries to throw his non-existent weight around with misinformed and biased opinions.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Uh.. well I am pretty sure every tank i've played in games blah blah other MMOs blah blah

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Is it possible for you to discuss this game without referencing some other MMO?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Uh.. well I am pretty sure every tank i've played in games have damage reduction temps similar to FFXIV. I mean its really really common; EVEN in Non-Linear Action MMOs warrior type classes have damage reduction moves. If you don't know that you haven't played much else.

Also; more health is a sponge; but less health makes you have to think about how much damage your tanking. That is common sense.

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In this current patch, everything hits harder so the extra HP was granted through VIT. You can't compare tanking in 2004 to tanking in 2016...In FFXIV. There is more utility to tanking now than before. Maybe if you played the tank jobs in this game, you would have a more logical opinion that didn't revolve around outdated MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

Not using damage reduction cooldowns regularly is probably why shit hits the fan when you tank.

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No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

Or literally not a single heal being cast because the healer is trying to win the DPS meters.

Your job as a healer is to keep everyone's HP high enough that they're not going to die. When your tank dies because you were DPSing, you're filling the wrong role, period. End of story.

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different. If you can't see why, you're a bad tank. Keeping cooldowns up with my usual healer, though, is different. Parry cooldowns can also stack with avoidance. At 10% HP, any self heals are WAY more important than they are at 90%.

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Don't see how you got bards mixed up with this; because that just sounds like stupidity to me.

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At some point you're going to recognize it's because you just don't get it.

But, I'll spell this one out.

Ranged damage in previous MMOs and single player RPGs is often either partially or entirely STR-based.

So a player like you comes into this game, and rather than figure out how this game works, arrogantly goes "I've been playing archers since 2004, I know how to play em!" and runs STR accessories and just makes everyone around facepalm at their insistence that they know what they're talking about.

As far as "you must not have played a lot of games" I've been in MMOs since they were called MUDs. (but then of course we go back to the fact that experience in other games doesn't count because the rules aren't the same)

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Originally Posted by rockint

No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

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No it just means there were two people playing poorly, you and the healer. Just because they failed at their job doesn't mean you have to as well. Also popping vengeance at 10% is a stupid idea, why wouldn't you pop it earlier? If you have 2k left it's likely 1-2 trash mob hits to kill you with or without vengeance. Maybe the 30% slower damage intake going from 90-10% will give the healer time to react. Or maybe it won't but just because the healer failed at their job, doesn't mean you should too. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by rockint

No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

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While I can certainly feel and emphathize with you on this matter, unfortunately, a healer's ability in this day and age is determined not by preventing a wipe, but by how hard and high they can ride the DPS meters without letting the tank die. Personally, since tanks hit like wet noodles that soaked up a teaspoon of water now, it's more effective for a tank that knows how to maximize DPS to run faceroll content as a DPS so shit can be finished in a timely manner.

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Originally Posted by rockint

No, it's typically because "Sorry, I was in cleric stance."

Or literally not a single heal being cast because the healer is trying to win the DPS meters.

Your job as a healer is to keep everyone's HP high enough that they're not going to die. When your tank dies because you were DPSing, you're filling the wrong role, period. End of story.

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different. If you can't see why, you're a bad tank. Keeping cooldowns up with my usual healer, though, is different. Parry cooldowns can also stack with avoidance. At 10% HP, any self heals are WAY more important than they are at 90%.

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

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If you die while not using cooldowns, maybe it is you who are filling the wrong role.

They aren't for survival with "bad healers", they are what separates a meh tank from a good tank. You're way of thinking here is probably what gets you into trouble. Without using cooldowns properly, you can never be more than a mediocre dungeon tank.

Also it is not the healers job to keep everyone at high hp, it is everyone's job. As a tank you use cooldowns, dodge, keep aggro, and do the mechanics to assist with this.

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Originally Posted by rockint

...98% HP while I'm getting healed...

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So good healers heal when you've only lost 2% hp?

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Originally Posted by rockint

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different.

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If you're saving Vengeance for when you're at 10% HP, you've waited far too long to even use it effectively. If your healer is in the process of casting a DPS spell and you pop Vengeance at 10% in the middle of a large pull, you're going to die most likely unless they have an instant cast ready to go immediately after, and you still may die.

If you had popped it sooner, it would have slowed damage down enough to actually give the healer more time to react and more time to DPS at the same time.

10% with a still DPSing healer is far more into Holmgang territory than Vengeance territory. You seeming to not understand this says a lot about your understanding of how cooldowns should work.

Vengeance and damage reduction skills like it and such are not for emergencies for healer mistakes, they're for preparing for high incoming damage or lessening damage to make more room for healer DPS. They're a proactive defense much like Galvanize is for SCH, not a reactive emergency button like Lustrate or Benediction are for healers and how Holmgang, Living Dead, and Hallowed Ground would be for tanks in regards to trash pulls (though given, Hallowed Ground technically can be used as a means to allow for more healer DPS)

If you use skills like Vengeance in this way in this situation you described, you are using them very ineffectively and pretty much guarantee your death at worst, and inefficiency at best. It's too late for them to be of much benefit since the next wave of damage will still kill you without assistance, and the healer will still have to spam heal you all the way back up and kill Vengeance time instead of being able to continue DPSing more with all the damage mitigated by a full length Vengeance.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Your job as a healer is to keep everyone's HP high enough that they're not going to die. When your tank dies because you were DPSing, you're filling the wrong role, period. End of story.

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Stop telling the rest of the people's jobs when you can't do yours, which is to mitigate damage. You're bad, terrible, and I'm glad I never crossed paths with you, because you're doing it on purpose. You're so wrong on so many levels I can't even.

How in the world can you call someone else bad when you're at fault? I mean, even with a bad healer you're at fault to begin with, since their job is to heal the damage you've taken, and you're taking more damage than you should by not using CDs, so it all starts with you. If you're not mitigating damage to the best of your capabilities, you're not tanking, you're just holding hate, which I can do with literally any job in this game.

Edit: inb4 someone jumps and calls me an elitist, read the bold part.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I've been tanking since 2004. When did you start tanking in games?

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I've been tanking since Burning Crusade in WoW was a pally main in vanilla WoW because paladins couldn't tank, I played many MMOs, played many different play styles, developed awareness in all classes and applied to how I play today. I used to be a hardcore raider in FF 14 back in 2.0 but now i'm more midcore with my static as we all have schedules n what not, I cleared the old coils when it was progression, I cleared savage coil when it was content (except T7 because it was incredibly tough). Now tell me what is your progression in this game? I never see you talking about raids, doing Gordias Savage or any "hard" content (putting that as by your previous posts on the forums) other than saying "it's not fair I have to get new fending when they made it super easy to get it", but now i'm just ranting.

Less HP means EHP for raids you have your EHP which is different from other MMOs which was very strange to many people but it was the meta, either you did it and succeeded or you got left in the dust having EHP and rotating your CDs is being a good tank something you should have strived for. This isn't something you had to do it's something you were supposed to do which is why I said you have no clue about tanking a good tank would have known that, if you pulled big and used nothing you were a bad tank, end of story. Having vitality was good for big pulls however, if you used vit and swapped out for str on bosses it was fine it was what tanks did it didn't make you easier to heal which is what you need to get through your thick skull all tanks take dmg equally it's more about the player.

I laughed when you said my tank gained 7k more health which means you don't have to use CDs as much have you done any of the new content? Even Gordias normal? The extra vit and CDs are needed especially in Savage tanks are in a good place right now funny how you think this cushion is extra defense it's just a CUSHION. It's nice to have but not needed, now if vit gave +armor or something it'd be a necessity but as it stands as .45 of our weights it's still better to have the split then not at all.

End of my rant but lets be serious here your posts are very uninformative and misguided allover the place but i'll leave you with this:

You cannot post in the tanking forums if you have no clue what you're talking about, this is all pretty common sense stuff.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

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I'm going to overlook everything else to focus on this statement. CDs aren't something you use "just because" you use them because it increases your survivability. If you roll your CDs properly then you allow your healer more leeway to be able to dps which makes groups of mobs downed faster, which means you take damage for less time. The only time you should not be using your CDs if if you're in a fight were you need it later.

Case in point, running Antitower with a FC healer last night new to the dungeon. I'm rolling my CDs so efficiently that she is able to DPS to the max and I never died. The only time I was in danger of dying was when she got a little overzealous and went OOM from DPSing. What I did was pop my panic button (HG) and I healed myself with Clemency to give her a window to recover some mana and get back to it.

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Originally Posted by iAmScallywag

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Because of the stupid 1000 character limit I had to cut off some of what I wanted to say. Either way, I could have died and we could have blamed her for DPSing and going OOM and not paying attention. OR because I rolled my CDs effectively beforehand, giving myself and her a bigger window of error, while maintaining a panic button just in case.....we can all live...she can learn from the mistake and become a better healer for it. I'll take living and looking like a boss over wiping and getting to blame the healer any day of the week. People need to learn that classes have a basic job that anyone can do. Tanks hold aggro, healers heal, dps do damage. But the truly good tanks, healers, and dps are those that can do that basic function and more. Tanks managing CDs well to take less damage overall and maximize their dps, healers being able to dps, dps being able to....ummmm...do more dps?

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Stop telling the rest of the people's jobs when you can't do yours, which is to mitigate damage. You're bad, terrible, and I'm glad I never crossed paths with you, because you're doing it on purpose. You're so wrong on so many levels I can't even.

How in the world can you call someone else bad when you're at fault? I mean, even with a bad healer you're at fault to begin with, since their job is to heal the damage you've taken, and you're taking more damage than you should by not using CDs, so it all starts with you. If you're not mitigating damage to the best of your capabilities, you're not tanking, you're just holding hate, which I can do with literally any job in this game.

Edit: inb4 someone jumps and calls me an elitist, read the bold part.

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Well, I'm glad you said it and not me, I'd be likely to get myself banned again. But yeah, that's some top-notch scrub play only using cooldowns at 10%

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

Well, I'm glad you said it and not me, I'd be likely to get myself banned again. But yeah, that's some top-notch scrub play only using cooldowns at 10%

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I'm only calling them out because they're calling everyone else bad, and they're rude especially when everyone else is telling them they're wrong. Otherwise it would have been a calm exchange of ideas. So if I'm banned, even though I didn't call anyone names (unless calling someone bad, or terrible qualifies as such), I hope they get penalized as well for doing the exact same thing.

I have one question? <<<<<--- not that question. Why is this turing into a negative thread? Can anyone answer that?Please note my sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

I have one question? <<<<<--- not that question. Why is this turing into a negative thread? Can anyone answer that?Please note my sarcasm.

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Because it's the internet and very few can debate without being negative and/or hostile.

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Originally Posted by rockint

In 4 mans, using vengeance at 98% HP while I'm getting healed and using vengeance at 10% HP while the healer is casting stone are WORLDS different. If you can't see why, you're a bad tank. Keeping cooldowns up with my usual healer, though, is different. Parry cooldowns can also stack with avoidance. At 10% HP, any self heals are WAY more important than they are at 90%.

Cooldowns aren't something you use "just because" they're for survival with bad healers, not so bad healers can win on dps.

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No...CDs should be used to allow for the healer to not have to spam Cure II and save their mana healing you. Not to blow them at 10%HP. Because you will most likely die even if the healer isn't in cleric stance. It's happened to me before and I have learned from it...you should too after so many deaths that you have had.

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Originally Posted by iAmScallywag

Because it's the internet and very few can debate without being negative and/or hostile.

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It was a rhetorical question.

I know this is bad but as a BLM main I've learned to deal with bad tanks. I'm one of those casual BLM who did not get quelling strikes because of it. When tanks want to open in dps stances I open with huge burst to force them back into tank stance. When tanks pull mobs and don't use tank stance or cool downs, I slow down my dps and drag on.

I know this is bad but as a BLM main I've learned to deal with bad tanks. I'm one of those casual BLMs who did not get quelling strikes because of it. When tanks want to open in dps stances I open with huge burst to force them back into tank stance. When tanks pull mobs and don't use tank stance or CDs, I slow down my dps and drag on. If I'm healing and your not using cooldowns then I will simply leave or vote kick but not before I kindly offer advice. If the tank if competent then I will watch my aggro and cooperate as a dps/healer. Cooperation is met with cooperation. Tanks who use dps stance in parties where dps outgears you and your not using CDs to supplement is unforgivable.

Everyone's bad in duty finder with the rare exceptions. Dps is lazy, tanks won't pop cool downs, and healers think they can dictate the party. I've played all roles in dungeons and I've seen it all.
Will say though when you get a decent partner they really shine. I'm typically healer for tome farm and I usually say "pull as much as you want" (can heal/nuke at same time with my ilvl regardless of baddies), and until recently no one truly pulled everything. Was great, we got up to the first boss in 5 minutes... Something I haven't seen in forever

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

No...CDs should be used to allow for the healer to not have to spam Cure II and save their mana healing you.

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Yes, WHEN YOU KNOW 100% THAT YOUR HEALER WILL HEAL YOU WHEN NEEDED. When I get hit by a tank buster, and 1 healer is healing a dps, the off-tank isn't taunting, and the other healer is DPSing, I'm sure using those cooldowns at 90% during low damage so the healer could get some extra DPS in is going to do wonders for me when I'm a hit from being killed. So I die and we wipe, but at least I used up my self-heals and other cooldowns while I was at almost full HP because healer DPS.

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

Iou want pug tanks using cooldowns more liberally, stop giving reasons to save them. When I drop to 10% HP and have no cooldowns to use because they're all on cooldown because you just had to do more damage, guess what, we wipe.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Yes, WHEN YOU KNOW 100% THAT YOUR HEALER WILL HEAL YOU WHEN NEEDED. When I get hit by a tank buster, and 1 healer is healing a dps, the off-tank isn't taunting, and the other healer is DPSing, I'm sure using those cooldowns at 90% during low damage so the healer could get some extra DPS in is going to do wonders for me when I'm a hit from being killed. So I die and we wipe, but at least I used up my self-heals and other cooldowns while I was at almost full HP because healer DPS.

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

Iou want pug tanks using cooldowns more liberally, stop giving reasons to save them. When I drop to 10% HP and have no cooldowns to use because they're all on cooldown because you just had to do more damage, guess what, we wipe.

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...and nothing of what you're saying means all healers are like that, or that it's impossible to dps as a healer without it becoming the situation you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

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There is, you are just not using it.

And then you are blaming the failure on others.

I didn't think this was a problem.
Then I ran a leveling roulette yesterday and ran into a healer who, after the first pull, expressed that they were flabbergasted I used not just one, but two cooldowns!
It was really funny for a second, and then really sad.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

I didn't think this was a problem.
Then I ran a leveling roulette yesterday and ran into a healer who, after the first pull, expressed that they were flabbergasted I used not just one, but two cooldowns!
It was really funny for a second, and then really sad.

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From time to time I will thank thank tanks in chat for using CD, just to remind them it is a good thing. The amount of tanks that don't use them is nuts. Usually all you can do is not comm them when they don't. The few times I've brought it up, the tank acts like a derp, and the dps don't understand. When a tank runs off before SS and doesn't use CD, they get no love from me.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

...and nothing of what you're saying means all healers are like that, or that it's impossible to dps as a healer without it becoming the situation you're talking about.

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I'm not saying that they're all like that or that it's impossible to DPS without letting your tank drop... I run with a healer that does great DPS, and keeps me up perfectly fine. Someone like him, I'll use cooldowns early so that he can get some extra damage in, because I know that if something happens and I drop, he'll get me back to full, so those cooldowns don't have to be used as defensively. But with a pug where I'm consistently sitting below 50%, my cooldowns are going to be more for emergencies.

They're not intended to just blindly use them on every pull so that your healer can do more damage. With a good healer, you can get away with it... But when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

Well the point of defensive cooldowns is to prevent dropping to dangerous levels/death in the first place sooo... I'm not quite sure I follow that logic.

You're never wasting cooldowns unless you purposely didn't use one for a tankbuster or without anything attacking you, both of which requires a certain degree of mental deficiency to accomplish.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

I dislike most duty finder tanks. They're not receptive to constructive, politely worded critiques, they don't use good judgement, and their situational awareness is often poor. The solution is to become a tank yourself and never deal with their ilk again. Want to be a big man in your free company? Popular with strangers? Want to get your daily dungeons knocked out of the way at a pace of your choosing? Want to get a group for the most popular content at a speed that'll make you say "wuuuuuut?" Choose the path of the meat shield. Jooooooin us.

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Then you have to deal with the idiot DPS who only use their damage combo, and never apply any debuffs / dots, or who run away from any wide AoE instead of stunning and carrying on with DPS.

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Originally Posted by rockint

I'm not saying that they're all like that or that it's impossible to DPS without letting your tank drop... I run with a healer that does great DPS, and keeps me up perfectly fine. Someone like him, I'll use cooldowns early so that he can get some extra damage in, because I know that if something happens and I drop, he'll get me back to full, so those cooldowns don't have to be used as defensively. But with a pug where I'm consistently sitting below 50%, my cooldowns are going to be more for emergencies.

They're not intended to just blindly use them on every pull so that your healer can do more damage. With a good healer, you can get away with it... But when you drop, and have no cooldowns left and die, it's your fault for wasting your cooldowns.

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What is an emergency?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Well the point of defensive cooldowns is to prevent dropping to dangerous levels/death in the first place sooo... I'm not quite sure I follow that logic.

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Using cooldowns during a low damage phase so the healer can DPS, and using cooldowns to counter a period of high damage are two different things. Using those cooldowns when your healer is getting behind because there's a lot of group damage is different from using them early.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Using cooldowns during a low damage phase so the healer can DPS, and using cooldowns to counter a period of high damage are two different things. Using those cooldowns when your healer is getting behind because there's a lot of group damage is different from using them early.

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There is some truth to this, as I believe we have said. Using cooldowns when you know you're not going to be taking a lot of damage is a little silly.

However, if you are able to predict incoming damage, then you will maximize the effectiveness of your cooldowns by using them ahead of the incoming damage. With only a few exceptions, defensive cooldowns are meant to head off the damage you're taking. If you only use a cooldown after you have taken critical amounts of damage, then you have saved it for nothing.

Be intelligent with your cooldowns, yes, but first be proactive. Using Sentinel and Sheltron when you've already eaten an unmitigated tankbuster down to 10% of your HP is foolish, when you could have instead used them ahead of time and only been brought down to only 53% HP. This logic applies to white damage. You need to plan for when to use it, yes, but long duration cooldowns (e.g. Foresight, Awareness + Bulwark, Rampart, etc.) are designed to mitigate white damage, and make you require less healing. Saving long duration cooldowns when you are taking even moderate incoming damage (read: all bosses, the start of normal-sized trash pulls, etc.) is poor tanking.

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Originally Posted by rockint

Sorry, there's a strategy to using cooldowns effectively.

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No one will disagree with this statement by itself but your examples have shown you either don't know the strategy or have trouble outlining it. You have advocated using vengeance at 10% HP which would be better exemplified by using holmgang followed by equilibrium or inner beast (or both) and vengeance used earlier to slow the damage intake going from 90-10%.

Secondly you the example of saving cooldowns for tank busters. Again totally appropriate but you only mention using them after the buster hits. Again same as above. If what I'm saying makes sense please start articulating your argument in a way that conveys your understanding in a more thorough manner.