People are deliberately ruining the story for others

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But the fact is that people will run what they have incentives to run, and will spend the time it's expected to take. If they can usually zerg it in a few minutes, then yes, they'll want to do it in a few minutes. If its normal run time is more like 45 minutes, then they'll be just as happy with it at 45 minutes.

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The incentive part? Sure. The rest? Completely untrue. People have incentive to run it now because it doesn't take over 45 minutes. Why would people spend 45 minutes running something just because it's the "norm" when they can get the exact same amount of tomes in half of the time? That's like saying I'd be willing to wait the hour plus queue for Crystal Tower in hope I get a new player and the 100 tomes just because "that's the norm" of the duty. People will do what is most efficient. Spending over 45 minutes gated behind walls for the sake of one new player is not efficient, whether it's normal or not.

So I would like to ask what you think the result would be if a iLevel sync down to say...55-70 was implemented, however unlikely it is. An iLevel sync lower than the contemporary dungeons is already there for ARF (180 while Nevereap an Fractal are 210). It would probably make the places less speed-runnable unless everyone is there an not left behind. And the Tomes would still be there so there is still incentive.

For the More "I want tomez an I want 'em Naow" crowd, I would suguess an additional roulette or allowing Trial Roulette to drop all three types at once, plus the rewards fromt he instance themselves.

I have yet to encounter a DF party that forces newbies to skip cut-scenes. While they enjoy their story cut-scenes, we're clearing things out. I call that efficiency. I won't deny that there are definitely some people who are jerks, but whenever I run the main scenario roulettes I experience a decent harmony. Sure, first-timers may not get to experience some of the fighting, but at least they can enjoy the cut-scenes their first time. They'll definitely run the story dungeons again later, since we obviously are too, so they aren't exactly missing out on the battle. Using the duty-finder comes with its own risks anyway.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

So I would like to ask what you think the result would be if a iLevel sync down to say...55-70 was implemented, however unlikely it is. An iLevel sync lower than the contemporary dungeons is already there for ARF (180 while Nevereap an Fractal are 210). It would probably make the places less speed-runnable unless everyone is there. An the Tomes would still be there so there is still incentive.

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I'm not sure that would do anything at all. I was extremely early to reach the end of the main 2.0 storyline (not the first because I didn't play 24 hours a day) and by the time I did, players were already speedrunning Prae, no more than 3 days after the game was officially released and no one had more than one piece or two of Darklight yet.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

The incentive part? Sure. The rest? Completely untrue. People have incentive to run it now because it doesn't take over 45 minutes. Why would people spend 45 minutes running something just because it's the "norm" when they can get the exact same amount of tomes in half of the time?

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The part I highlighted negates the rest of what you said. Obviously, as it is NOW, people won't spend 45 minutes on it. But that's because they can do it in half the time (or less). Remove the ability to do it in half the time, and doing a full run becomes feasible.

Nobody would "waste" the 15 minutes or so it takes now if they were able to do the same in under 5 minutes. But because it's not feasible in 5 minutes, that's not an issue.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm not sure that would do anything at all.

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It probably wouldn't.

If you do the speedrun stat, there are only like three mob groups you fight normally. Everything else is either skipped (with hallowed ground, if need be) or done in armor and thus independent from gear.

And in castrum, we got these looovely turrets in the second part.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But that's because they can do it in half the time (or less). Remove the ability to do it in half the time, and doing a full run becomes feasible.

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Except it's not just competing with itself, but a Keeper of the Lake speedrun or similar. I'd wager most people would even prefer doing two short dungeons with the same reward over that simply because a) There's more variety and b) They actually get to do something the entire time, rather than standing idly while someone reads.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

The part I highlighted negates the rest of what you said. Obviously, as it is NOW, people won't spend 45 minutes on it. But that's because they can do it in half the time (or less). Remove the ability to do it in half the time, and doing a full run becomes feasible.

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You're kind of missing the point. I'm not comparing the dungeon with the same dungeon. I'm comparing running that dungeon in the 45 minutes you're saying it will take, with another dungeon which offers the same amount of tomes but takes half of the time because nobody is watching the cutscenes. Why are they going to spend 45 minutes on The Praetorium when they can spend 15 minutes on another much quicker dungeon which doesn't involve cutscenes and gives the same amount of tomes?

Issue I have with people complaining about this is Party Finder gives you the option to find people who want to watch CS, to complain means you are being to lazy to take that time because you are saying your time is precious and you dont want to waste it waiting on making a group so instead you want to have a random group of people obligate their time to you? Can you see how that in itself is rude? If the majority wants to do it one way you can't scream how it's unfair because at one point you may end up being the majority who gets tired of wasting time like that. And yes at a point it is wasting time cause quite honestly the last story dungeon in 2.0 has a good 15-20+ min of Cutscenes.

Now think about waiting through those Cutscenes every time, 10-20 mins add up. If the story is important, then take it upon yourself to Party finder 7 others willing to wait, otherwise just accept that if you are making the choice to do it through DF you should respect the majority.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm not sure that would do anything at all. I was extremely early to reach the end of the main 2.0 storyline (not the first because I didn't play 24 hours a day) and by the time I did, players were already speedrunning Prae, no more than 3 days after the game was officially released and no one had more than one piece or two of Darklight yet.

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I was one of those people speedrunning praetorium in AF gear for the tomestones. An ilvl 55-70 sync would slow it down a bit, sure, but the speedrunning wouldn't stop.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

I was one of those people speedrunning praetorium in AF gear for the tomestones. An ilvl 55-70 sync would slow it down a bit, sure, but the speedrunning wouldn't stop.

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I went to CM instead. I always thought Prae was too much of a hassle to cure when people were in AF.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

2. You can skip the cutscenes and respect that you are playing with 7 other people who may not want to be there for an hour, have much faster queue times, and just go watch the cutscenes later.

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That like saying their time is more important then person getting enjoyment out of the game. Respect goes both ways. Also this isn't new thing when the content was new like bread new people were still speed running though it and telling people they should skip the CS.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

...Just because the majority agree on something, doesn't make it any less of what it really is. Think of our past history, with practically everyone believing the world was flat. The majority agreeing on one thing, doesn't objectively make it right.

If you still think the majority is objectively right on the matter, no matter what, then... well, I guess that's that. The rest of us don't expect our peers to reflect. We just accept that people fail to understand.

Again, I'd like to emphasize that I do agree on the aspect of someone needing to bite the bullet. Generally, this means the minority accepting the ways of the majority. It's just unfortunate that the majority strictly believe their way is the only way.

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I belive that concept is called "Tyranny of the Masses" right?

The type of person who would want to force seven others to wait around while they watch cutscenes isnt someone I would want to play with due to their entitled attitude. The world doesnt revolve around you.

Have something like awesome glam/music/mount/whatever drop if you don't skip any cutscenes in the entire run or something to that degree.

Watch as the masses flock to "help" the new players enjoy their plot.

[QUOTE=Ashkendor;362345 Praetorium in particular can be cleared in about 15 minutes but that skyrockets to 50 minutes [/QUOTE]

I've always felt that number has to be exaggerated. In the past week I've done four full story runs through df, skipping mobs but waiting for the new people to watch their cs before continuing on, and at most it went from 15 to 30 ish minutes.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Those dungeons are long enough as it is.
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Um... wut? I'm not even a veteran mmo player and 30 minutes max is still incredibly, incredibly short to me. If anything, I'm of the opinion that dungeons should be longer and have more challenging monsters overall, but comments like this make me wonder why games are designed for people with sub 30 minutes of game time.

OTT: If people want to watch cutscenes and fight the bosses, let them. Skip mobs with the new player in tow, 9/10 times it'll be faster than just taking a penalty and requeing.

Find a level 60 warrior. Dare him to solo the entirety of the Castrum Meridium and Praetorium. Tag along and enjoy the story at your own pace.

I did it at ilevel 180, I'm sure it would be even easier at 210+.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I've always felt that number has to be exaggerated. In the past week I've done four full story runs through df, skipping mobs but waiting for the new people to watch their cs before continuing on, and at most it went from 15 to 30 ish minutes.

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I thought so too, but myself and a friend took an FC mate through Praetorium (War/Sch level 60 unsynced) and it took 50 minutes. Maybe he's just slow at reading, I dunno. We did go on a Garlean genocide spree, so that's why I specified killing all mobs.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I thought so too, but myself and a friend took an FC mate through Praetorium (War/Sch level 60 unsynced) and it took 50 minutes. Maybe he's just slow at reading, I dunno. We did go on a Garlean genocide spree, so that's why I specified killing all mobs.

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Yeah, I've never done a genocide spree. XD Considering the story from what I remember had you 'infiltrating', which I've always attributed to being sneaky sneaks, I always went out of my way to avoid pulling mobs, even on my first run through.

The only way they can make the 2 story dungeons not suck for new guys would be to lock the bosses until everyone is out of CS. If they do that then most people wouldn't run them anymore which would cause queue times to go to several hours or more.

They could fix that by increasing the rewards of those two through DR. If they made the rewards 4x (or more) what they are now or better but I had to wait for CS I would still do it.

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Originally Posted by Scorcher24

The whole rushing in story dungeons is annoying and people are blind to the issue. If you bring it up, you only get flamed and insulted. There is no repercussion for those people because they are backed by most of the rest of the group, no matter how rude or inconsiderate they are.

There needs to be a mechanic that puts people into that ring that you cannot leave like at the beginning, when someone watches a cutscene.

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If they implemented this I would do one of two things.

1. Stop doing MSQ Roulette.
2. Form a party finder speed run group.

I would rather miss out on the daily poetics bonus (which I need for relic) than blow 40 minutes doing the same dungeon everyday, when half the time I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs waiting for someone to get out of CS. I think that's something you don't realize. While you're watching your cutscenes, we can't do much else.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

you will have 95% less players queueing for the dungeons. That's how much it annoys people.

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For all of you posting "no one would run it" would you mind showing where you are getting this info from? Was there some secret poll held to ask who would still run the dungeons if the new players were able to watch the cutscenes?

Or are you simply making these "facts" up because of your own self-entitlement issues where you believe that new players should not be afforded the same expierence you were offered by watching the cutscenes when it was new content? Believe it or not it is new for them maybe the community should show its support for the game and the new players coming into it and let them expierence the story.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

Or are you simply making these "facts"

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It's the logical conclusion if you try to force people who don't want to watch the cut scenes and tell them if they do the MSQ roulette that they are required to do so. I let people watch their CS's but even I am not dull enough to think everyone would take a change like that lying down.

Abondonment rates would skyrocket for CS heavy instances such as Castrum, people would rather AFK the penalty than sit around waiting on cut-scenes.

You are also under the assumption that the duty finder in itself has a "Community" It's backwards anything you punch into the duty finder is by default anti-community with it's near anonymous player base and no-fault system as you will never see anyone in that duty ever again unless you qued up with them.

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Like all things if you want to experience the content the way you want to, you will need to play with like minded individuals. In the duty finder it's to be understood you are grouping up with 1-7 other players who goals and opinions may differ from yours and they are under 0 obligation to do ANYTHING that you request.

There is no rule telling them they must play the way a new player wants too, I can que up for a dungeon as a level 60 Marauder and people would need to deal with me because that is how the duty finder works.

Make a party finder, join a free company, if you want to set your own rules. This goes for story content as much as it does any other content in the game that requires multiple members.

The issue is both sides of the argument are completely justified. I'm not looking forward to when my gf starts doing the 50 mq dungeons.

Yes, new players should be able to enjoy the story driven content as much as we older players did when it first came out. Completely right about this

But...sadly, the 7 other people in your group have farmed this same map over 100 times. No one in their right mind would expend their suffering an extra 40 minutes, sorry :/

Not this shit again.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

Or are you simply making these "facts" up because of your own self-entitlement issues where you believe that new players should not be afforded the same expierence you were offered by watching the cutscenes when it was new content? Believe it or not it is new for them maybe the community should show its support for the game and the new players coming into it and let them expierence the story.

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lololol I first ran Praetorium in October of 2013 and guess what...
I had to skip cutscenes!

There was never a magical time when a group of strangers waited on a few people to watch an extra 30 minutes of cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by AsteriaStarfall

because of your own self-entitlement issues where you believe that new players should not be afforded the same expierence you were offered

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Now you're making assumptions about me and trying to put words in my mouth. If you read my post, you'd see I'm generally one to let people watch the cutscenes if there's a new player there. The rest of the group however does not. And the amount of times I've run that dungeon and had that happen, I think experience talks there. I want for a solution as well, but if you start forcing people to watch cutscenes, I'm sorry but what I said is NOT a million miles from the truth. Yes, I'd still run it, because helping new people, but most people wouldn't.

I got EXTREMELY lucky with my CM/Prae run for story, but if a friend wants it, I'd go with them and try and get a CS focused group for them. As for random strangers, not a lot I can do. As I said, even if you take both tanks out of the equation (or even both healers tbh), you can still beat that instance and speedrun it. Now if you can get the majority of the instance on your side, then you're fine, but otherwise it is just a suck it up buttercup situation. Say what henious abuse you will at me, it doesn't change the grim reality I'm afraid.

Could someone explain how it's getting ruined by people rushing things? The cutscenes all play correct? and the new person gets to sit and watch them all? They aren't getting kicked right? There is enough trash mobs that they can watch the cutscene and in most cases not miss a boss fight (because the rest of the party is clearing trash)? If they did in some chance miss a boss, then most of them are just a overgrown trash mob, the same model as the trash in the zone with no special dialog or even anything unique about them, except maybe the final boss. I'm a little confused here as to what is getting missed. I stopped running the MSQ roulette because I have run it to death and am burned out so maybe there is some new thing going on I am unaware of.

I mean sure I know people are kind of pushy in there and barely talk. That sounds like a normal roulette to me, like the current level60 roulette. Is the MSQ roulette like doing something unique or something? People don't talk and rush in basically all roulettes. Sorry to say, if a new person is experiencing this now: Welcome to endgame content... We apologize as a community in advance and please enjoy your stay and hopefully you find a nice static/linkshell/free company who aren't kind of jerks like duty finder. I mean I'm fairly unspoken and all business in them too so I'm just as bad.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Could someone explain how it's getting ruined by people rushing things?

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The OP did. On the very 1st page. Perhaps you didnt see because you rushed the topic?

He said that "when the 2nd boss dies while im still watching the 1st boss cutscene, the experience is ruined for me".

It does make sense doesnt it?

Also, sorry to hear that CM/PR is "end game" content for you. But to me they look like newbie-ish dungeons in which i tend to adopt a newbie-friendly attitude, like waiting for everybody.

It really sucks for first timers in these instances. I'm currently running these daily to finish my anima weapon, and every time despite the bonus I kind of hope there won't be any first timers because I know their experience won't be very good.

For those running these for the first time I recommend running them with your FC friends or making a party finder asking for people to make a full run with you. I know I'd join a pf group for them for those bonus poetics. :)

I think it is important to note that it is not necessarily that the dungeon would take longer, but that the majority of the dungeon would involve you standing idle. When I queue up for content, I don't want to spend 16 minutes fighting/running/doing mechanics and the remaining 36 minutes idling while someone watches a cutscene.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Could someone explain how it's getting ruined by people rushing things?

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People do not enjoy having to choose between running the dungeon or skipping playing part of the dungeon. I've found that most people are fine with just moving ahead and letting someone watch cutscenes, I've never seen a party vote dismiss for watching cutscenes before.

For better or worse, what I have told new players in the FC is that for CM/Praet (these are the two main offenders), just expect to do the dungeons twice to get the full effect. First time you can watch your CSs, but will probably be locked out of fights, and then next time you go back, you can experience the fights themselves.

Is it ideal? Nahh. But it's better than getting all worked up over something that is out of your control. We have on occasion put together some FC runs for new players, but we're a pretty small group and so it's not always possible to put together full FC runs for these things.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I'm assuming this is another Castrum/Praetorium thread. Honestly, a lot of people run Main Scenario Roulette to level alts or to get some daily tomes. Praetorium in particular can be cleared in about 15 minutes but that skyrockets to 50 minutes if you do a full clear (i.e. killing all mobs and watching all cutscenes, possibly more if you have a slow reader in your party). Suddenly those tomes or exp aren't nearly as appealing, and many people simply wouldn't queue for it. The end result would be that new people would have a difficult time getting into these dungeons at all. I'd rather see them be able to progress their story than not.

As for level 60's zerg rushing them... we've been zerg rushing them since we were in like i90 gear.

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Sincerely, common sense.

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Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

The OP did. On the very 1st page. Perhaps you didnt see because you rushed the topic?

He said that "when the 2nd boss dies while im still watching the 1st boss cutscene, the experience is ruined for me".

It does make sense doesnt it?

Also, sorry to hear that CM/PR is "end game" content for you. But to me they look like newbie-ish dungeons in which i tend to adopt a newbie-friendly attitude, like waiting for everybody.

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I did read it but ok. Maybe I should elaborate, does it skip cutscenes or something or just queue them up and play them one after another if another boss is killed? I literally have no idea and I don't tank them so it's not me pushing the choo choo train. And hey, you are attacking me on the forums (not in a mean way but hey you are jumping on my post) and I asked politely so, I guess you are one of us meanie-poo's huh? *one of us, one of us, one of us*

Oh, yes, CM/PR is actually the first of "end game" content at one point but maybe you never played the game when it was first released... I said welcome to end game content, not welcome to the raid grind. End game is just when the levels run out. I'm sure you are super progressed and working on the last boss in Midas or something and I'm some dirty whatever...ok fine... You really don't seem very "newbie-friendly" if you are calling me a newbie like it's a dirty word by apologizing to me for being new....

But it's whatever, thanks for showing the OP what the community is like. I expected this.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

I did read it but ok. Maybe I should elaborate, does it skip cutscenes or something or just queue them up and play them one after another if another boss is killed? I literally have no idea and I don't tank them so it's not me pushing the choo choo train. And hey, you are attacking me on the forums (not in a mean way but hey you are jumping on my post) and I asked politely so, I guess you are one of us meanie-poo's huh? *one of us, one of us, one of us*

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Yeah, it plays the cutscenes back to back to back if the dungeon goes quickly enough.

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

The only way they can make the 2 story dungeons not suck for new guys would be to lock the bosses until everyone is out of CS. If they do that then most people wouldn't run them anymore which would cause queue times to go to several hours or more.

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Some people would still run them, the new people would just get harassed to skip the CSs far more, people would afk, people watching CSs would get kicked regularly, and the run in general wouldn't be any less sucky for the new person.

Perhaps they should just remove the incentives from the main storyline roulette entirely, rebalance the game's sources of large quantities of poetics and put the two encounters into mentor roulette with the highest of queue priorities there instead. And encourage newer people to make PFs via suggestions in the actual quest text (especially since they can be run unsynced with just a couple of helpers). I personally love joining PFs for these dungeons and helping people do it for the first time. I never queue them in roulette because it's always a full group of old players rushing through and it's not even slightly hard, which makes it kinda boring, and new people have no idea they're in for a terrible experience the first time they open the DF window and select it. Even synced, the loss of several people to cutscenes doesn't really matter.

It's a drag that poetics are still required for a few activities and this encourages people to stomp the old story dungeons when people are still trying to get through them for the first time and enjoy them. Ever since my friends had a traumatic Praetorium experience they've furiously skipped all of the cutscenes the first time in everything and it's really made them worried about DFing older content in general. But speedrunning is still incentivised because there are so few ways to earn poetics in large quantities and the allure of a roulette reward plus the chance of a new player bonus means this is going to keep happening. It's tough.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Um... wut? I'm not even a veteran mmo player and 30 minutes max is still incredibly, incredibly short to me. If anything, I'm of the opinion that dungeons should be longer and have more challenging monsters overall, but comments like this make me wonder why games are designed for people with sub 30 minutes of game time.

OTT: If people want to watch cutscenes and fight the bosses, let them. Skip mobs with the new player in tow, 9/10 times it'll be faster than just taking a penalty and requeing.

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Again, someone completely missing the point. The vast majority of people don't repeatedly runs those dungeons for the love and enjoyment of them and the challenging monsters. They run them for the tomes. +30 minutes of time for the same amount of tomes they could get in 15 minutes isn't worth it, if they were going to be gated at every boss and forced to watch the cutscenes. Stop snipping parts of my posts and completely ignoring the rest of them.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Yes, new players should be able to enjoy the story driven content as much as we older players did when it first came out. Completely right about this

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I guess it is good for new players that the 2 dungeons were rushed speed runs since the day it came first out. So they can have the same enjoyment as the vets, with just a bit more speed.