SMN is Broken in PvP

Sorry I've bursted just as fast if not faster than SMNs on DRG/MCH. The people I pvp with, and some replied to this forum, will tell you I have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

- My point is that if I'm going to run into/am in range to use my stun, I won't be bursting anything if I had the chance to do so. It also eliminates the use of it being a means to lock down someone mid burst.

- Swiftcast exists for SMN, and even without swiftcast the fact that tri-bind can hit in a collective AoE (as well as blizzard II for that matter) makes it a much more powerful tool for self-defense (which is also the context of my post) and CC alike to alleviate pressure off themselves or anotehr healer (might I add that tri-bind is also more reliable, although that's more because of the ping/latency)

- Pets wasting DRs would only be the case if the SMN is keeping them on sic, otherwise this shouldn't even be a discussion because the same could be said for MCH's single target stun

---

Well I see concern with you "running into range" for your stun to begin with that doesn't really make much sense. There's plenty of other sources of stuns before that even gets put on the table for discussion.

Both Blizzard 2 and Tri-Bind have a radius of 5y which is TINY especially when its exaggerated with the amount of server delay in this game. The only time you're going to land that is on a team which misplayed their positioning.

I mean if we're talking about the two together they usually are both a waste and are used in the same manner. How often do you rely on your MCH stun to set up a kill in an even battle. It's probably only ever used in a chase to lock down a second kill or to peel for your team in which case its still building DR. And stun gun is laughably the most wasteful use of stun DR if you manage to land it on more than one person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaelyn

Sorry I've bursted just as fast if not faster than SMNs on DRG/MCH. The people I pvp with, and some replied to this forum, will tell you I have.

---

DRG I believe but MCH would take an extended amount of time that allows for counter play.

Allows for counterplay sure, but can still burst as well if not better if left unattended the same way SMN is. That's what I'm getting at.

SMN also has counterplay so....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaelyn

Allows for counterplay sure, but can still burst as well if not better if left unattended the same way SMN is. That's what I'm getting at.

SMN also has counterplay so....

---

But you're not understanding that SMN can do what MCH does in seconds in A SECOND with little to no counterplay. No you can't purify against a good SMN they understand the delay and timing and will get their stacks no matter how focused you are on purifying it. The Servers just allow for it. In competitive 4s multiple seconds is a lifetime

SMN is strong. But if you have learned about the job a little bit you'll know their weakness. The best way is to play SMN yourself and learn how it work. Their burst is strong but they're like the weakest job in PvP, with little to no tool to save themselves from getting killed. At least BLM has something like Sleep and magic shield. SMN has nothing. I think that's why SE doesn't want to nerf their attack potency too much because they traded that offensive abilities with their defenses.

To counterplay a SMN, you gang up on them and kill them before they burst you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

SMN is strong. But if you have learned about the job a little bit you'll know their weakness. The best way is to play SMN yourself and learn how it work. Their burst is strong but they're like the weakest job in PvP, with little to no tool to save themselves from getting killed. At least BLM has something like Sleep and magic shield. SMN has nothing. I think that's why SE doesn't want to nerf their attack potency too much because they traded that offensive abilities with their defenses.

To counterplay a SMN, you gang up on them and kill them before they burst you.

---

"But they're like the weakest job in pvp"

What

Have you even stepped foot in pvp for the past year and a half? What tools do BRD and MCH have to save themselves? BRD has 2 pititful heals and MCH has 1 neither of which really "save" them. BLM sleep is a long cast unless you use the pvp ability with a hefty cooldown....

Your last statment could be said about anything ever. That argues nothing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exira

"But they're like the weakest job in pvp"

What

Have you even stepped foot in pvp for the past year and a half? What tools do BRD and MCH have to save themselves? BRD has 2 pititful heals and MCH has 1 neither of which really "save" them. BLM sleep is a long cast unless you use the pvp ability with a hefty cooldown....

Your last statment could be said about anything ever. That argues nothing

---

I mean weakest in defense.

BRD & MCH have instant bind and heavy or something. I don't play these jobs in PvP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

I mean weakest in defense.

BRD & MCH have instant bind and heavy or something. I don't play these jobs in PvP.

---

If you haven't played all the jobs then what insight are you trying to provide?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exira

If you haven't played all the jobs then what insight are you trying to provide?

---

It's ok if you don't believe me. Find other way to deal with SMN then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exira

....

---

- That means that the stun itself isn't very applicable for anything other than to cover yourself or a healer, but the use of a stun DR is a high cost on it's own. Although thinking back I'm not sure how i even got into this discussion when I was talking more about CC and defensive options in general


- 5 yards is not tiny when you're taking into consideration that melee weaponskills are 3 yards in range. It hits the tank and melee that are on you or your healer, sometimes not even needing to swiftcast tri-bind if you're on the otherside of the arena or not their focus for whatever reason.

- Stun gun works to alleviate some pressure off myself or the healer if I'm next to them, that's about it. As I mentioned above, the fact it uses a DR on stun is a heavy cost on it's own, while it's not so much the case for bind because only ranged, healers (more so on WHM since they have fluid aura) and ninja even has access to it. It still rounds about MCH having weaker defensive options (aside from a higher physical defense, but when we're facing the likes of full swing, all bets are off) compared to SMN, which is what my original post was about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaelyn

Sorry I've bursted just as fast if not faster than SMNs on DRG/MCH. The people I pvp with, and some replied to this forum, will tell you I have.

---

I would be lying if I said I didn't get some clutch kills with MCH burst (if not drop someone onto the floor seconds within engaging), but I've seen just as much coming from SMNs as well. On top of that, theirs tends to be both more potent and reliable since hte MCH one is contingent on having a bind, sleep or stun on the target, the former 2 being broken on any source of damage and being just as wrecked by purify if we even want to consider that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

I mean weakest in defense.

BRD & MCH have instant bind and heavy or something. I don't play these jobs in PvP.

---

As I mentioned eariler, the defense is hardly a concern when you're facing a full swing that's traited toward 20% damage amplification. Not to mention SMN has instant cast binds through the use of swiftcast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

*snip*

(aside from a higher physical defense, but when we're facing the likes of full swing, all bets are off)

---

I don't even think mch wins on that front either. IIRC brd sports the lowest resistance amongst the jobs when it comes to both magic and physical damage in pvp. Since I'm sure they set that up to be based on role, I'm fairly certain mch is bottom in both categories as well and that would mean they take the same physical damage as smn but smn takes less magic damage than brd/mch.

After reading through the posts, I still think that SMN needs PvP tweaks for their skills. Purifying requires you to read when they're going to Tri-Disaster(which is always an opener, and .5s after Tri-Disaster you eat Fester->Painflare->Energy Drain->Deathflare in that time period unless a MNK has stunned them with Shoulder Tackle). Bane's there if your targets have poor position to spread DoTs. I can argue that Blizzard II/Tri-Bind are both excellent spells, though Tri-Bind seems better unless you're in a sandwich situation, in which Blizzard II is more useful to cover all around you against tanks and Melee. Casters and Ranged on the other hand(preferably enemy SMN nowadays, since BLM is nigh useless due to how their kit is designed in PvP) can eat Tri-Bind while the SMN gets out of casting range with a Swiftcast.

Shadow Flare can ACTUALLY help control the flow of battle by creating a large puddle of crap on the field. It can be used to choke enemies and also protect against Melee that are attempting to get you, as they'll be inflicted with slow for their next action onward until they are out.

Even the PVP skills can be good: Misty Veil can reduce range of healing and attacks, making it easier to get away or prevent people from being healed from normal distance. Wither is useful, albeit that only removes one beneficial effect, which could make it remove Protect or any other defenses since it's random. If you manage to knock off a SCH's stacks with it and reduce their healing capability, that's good for you. Aetheric Burst is just there to combat Melee and reduce their skill speed however, so it's useful to that extent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

After reading through the posts, I still think that SMN needs PvP tweaks for their skills.

---

Well, you're in luck! They are getting "adjusted" for PvP in a day. And from what they official post says, it's not (only) their PvP skills that are being re-balanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaelyn

A good mnk will stun the SMN if they still have it, or if they see them pop Dreadwyrm you stun them and OIP it off.

The point is people need to stop complaining about SMNs cause they're not that broken lmao. All these new people that are getting into pvp complaining that they're getting 1 shot. Any job and technically "1 shot" you.

---

Kinda pathetic, really, because of all the new players/"bads" bitching about how OP the class is- yet they don't even show up on a certain site's pvp ranks.

Of course they flock to the OF and complain and SE sees it as people coming in droves.

Hard for me to take a lot of posters seriously if they've not even reached rank 50.

Good thing I'm just as confident on dragoon as am I with smn in Feast if they make the class useless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BloodPact

Well, you're in luck! They are getting "adjusted" for PvP in a day. And from what they official post says, it's not (only) their PvP skills that are being re-balanced.

---

"To rectify the situation, we will be making significant adjustments to summoner PvP abilities with patch 3.22."

I just LOVE that part. SMN is the ONLY class getting adjustments now rather than in 3.25. Just let that sink in for a second.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovelikewinter

Kinda pathetic, really, because of all the new players/"bads" bitching about how OP the class is- yet they don't even show up on a certain site's pvp ranks.

Of course they flock to the OF and complain and SE sees it as people coming in droves.

Hard for me to take a lot of posters seriously if they've not even reached rank 50.

Good thing I'm just as confident on dragoon as am I with smn in Feast if they make the class useless.

---

You do know that getting rank 50 takes quite some time right? It's not like you can grind out pvp rank while waiting for a queue by doing fates or quests. It's probably the longest single grind in the game currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exira

"But they're like the weakest job in pvp"

What

Have you even stepped foot in pvp for the past year and a half? What tools do BRD and MCH have to save themselves? BRD has 2 pititful heals and MCH has 1 neither of which really "save" them. BLM sleep is a long cast unless you use the pvp ability with a hefty cooldown....

Your last statment could be said about anything ever. That argues nothing

---

I can't speak for MCH but Bards can counter a SMN with extreme ease. Frankly, I'm not sure why you feel that those heals are pitiful. They are more than sufficient in my experience, at least alongside Bard's utility skills. SMN are honestly one of the classes that concerned me the least in encounters.

It's these people who are just plain bad or have no idea, that complain about things like this and get them nerfed unnecessarily. Exira, Ive seen melee destroy players just as quick as I can do with summoner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mandudez

You do know that getting rank 50 takes quite some time right? It's not like you can grind out pvp rank while waiting for a queue by doing fates or quests. It's probably the longest single grind in the game currently.

---

http://puu.sh/nJqnM.png

I have no idea how long it takes to get to rank 50

.

.

.

(/s)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lovelikewinter

Of course they flock to the OF and complain and SE sees it as people coming in droves.

---

This. "Theyre better than me, they must be nerfed/punished"

Good job whiners, you got SMNs nerfed.
#Plottwist though, you'll still get killed by everyone because not the job needed a nerf, your skill levels needed a buff. Whiners, get good before you act like you know the pvp in this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cherub

Good job whiners, you got SMNs nerfed.
#Plottwist though, you'll still get killed by everyone because not the job needed a nerf, your skill levels needed a buff. Whiners, get good before you act like you know the pvp in this game.

---

This.

Real PvPers knew how to deal with SMNs like... 2-3 months after Heavensward released. I haven't seen people complain about SMN in months until now when we just got a new mode. Next they'll get a WAR axe on their skull and scream to the devs that WARs should be nerfed.

Lol keep telling yourselves that this little 7 page long thread forced these changes.

Well, DoTs were easily healed, now they're a joke.
Tri-bind was the only relevant CC in SMN's toolkit, now we can safely say that SMN has zero useful defensive/CC tool.
The burst took a slight nerf, but enough to prevent the SMN from using it as an initiator. They'll now have to wait until the other DPS on the team put someone at mid-life before bursting to secure the kill, otherwise the burst will more likely be wasted and healed through. So, SMN will do even more of what they're used to: sit in a corner and wait.

As I see it, with the changes to casting interuptions and planned map adjustments, there's absolutly no reason to take a SMN over a BLM. I would even prefer a BRD.

Yay, it's 2.1 again.
Edit: No, I'm wrong. In 2.1, SMN was amazing because they could rez and Miasma was godly. It's after the nerfbat hit them during Frontlines that they became useless.

SMN can do high damages in the match results and people use that as a proof to say the job is OP but SMN dots hardly kill anyone except for the one who got focused by the SMN and eat the follow up Fester-Painflare-Deathflare. All you have to do is Purify and if it's on CD then you just need to pop your self heal such as Second Wind or Recouperate. If you can survive Deathflare the SMN can't do anything about it because all of their reliable attacks are on cooldown and most SMN will stop following you because they'll get killed eventually as people said, SMN has little to no tool to save their life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evangela

This.

Real PvPers knew how to deal with SMNs like... 2-3 months after Heavensward released. I haven't seen people complain about SMN in months until now when we just got a new mode. Next they'll get a WAR axe on their skull and scream to the devs that WARs should be nerfed.

---

The real papers weren't playing seal rock either >.>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyce

Well, DoTs were easily healed, now they're a joke.

---

A nocturnal astro would be crying to the amount of party healing that would be needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyce

The burst took a slight nerf, but enough to prevent the SMN from using it as an initiator. They'll now have to wait until the other DPS on the team put someone at mid-life before bursting to secure the kill, otherwise the burst will more likely be wasted and healed through. So, SMN will do even more of what they're used to: sit in a corner and wait.

---

Isn't the entire point of a team game to coordinate your burst damage? A single player shouldn't be both the initiator and the executioner; that speaks in spades in just what their outgoing in damage really is. My personal burst is nowhere near lethal unless they had heavy medal or were foolish enough to use B4B, there needs to be follow up and on top of that, it's not anti-situational because I need to get a bind off with proper spacing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyce

As I see it, with the changes to casting interruptions and planned map adjustments, there's absolutly no reason to take a SMN over a BLM. I would even prefer a BRD.

---

Honestly, there isn't much of a reason to bring BRD or MCH either. They're in the same boat as SMN where their damage comes primarily from bursts, then they get second handed to non-dps (harass, CC, very small damage to pressure healers) roles inbetween the cooldowns. Now BRD/MCH can't reliably interrupt casts (save for one every 25/30 seconds through a silence), while BLM's tool kit remains unchanged in relation to the changes to interrupt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyce

Tri-bind was the only relevant CC in SMN's toolkit, now we can safely say that SMN has zero useful defensive/CC tool.

---

Not disagreeing with this, but compared to MCH/BRD (whom can now only burst with the changes to interrupt, and single target bind/heavy), it's a bit of a step up in what they can bring that isn't damage. Though I'm astounded to why they didn't change the duration of sleep alongside this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mandudez

And it didn't start off like that either. The first couple days the class spread was quite even.

---

Some of us have been summoner well before this. You got your nerf. Dry those tears.