Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!

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Originally Posted by Laurima

easily the most stupid thing I have ever read, like ever.

show me a healer that can out dps a Warrior. while maintaining group health pools ><

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That would be me, as a WHM. Anti tower is easy. I literally keep only 4k MP for heal and rest 11k for DPS. I even run anti tower fast style where healers must continure to DPS and not even a second rest till the end. I usually save assize/holy for end boss doll phase and that can release ppl fast. I maintain people healthy all the time. Those days you will hear lots of clicking sound in my room xD. I

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Originally Posted by ElieDavion

i totally agree with this and while a paladin can somewhat selfheal as a previous poster suggested it isnt a tanks job to heal himself thats the healers job besides that clemency costs half a palas mp and should be used in my opinion in an emergency where a healer is to stressed or the pala has really nothing better to do wich i doubt :)

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Devils advocate here, how can people here say if a healer doesn't dps they aren't playing right, but you turn around and say you shouldn't have to self heal? Wouldn't that be playing paladins class to the fullest?

If the tank was sitting on cooldowns when there weren't any tankbusters coming then I'd say the healer was in the right. Not using CDs because the incoming damage isn't near lethal or because you think they're more effective if you activate them when you're at 5% hp is just as dumb as icemages.

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Originally Posted by Laurima

show me a healer that can out dps a Warrior. while maintaining group health pools ><

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Most of the endgame healers, I think.

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Originally Posted by Laurima

easily the most stupid thing I have ever read, like ever.

show me a healer that can out dps a Warrior. while maintaining group health pools ><

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show me a tank that outdps a whm on 4+ mobs while on tank stance and maintaining agro...

tanks in dungeons are forced to go tank stance now if they want to keep agro and surive the pulls , while healers are able to go Cleric stance for a while...

and bosses ? why bother going dps stance ? is better to keep agro and mitigate dmg (outside some phases that isnt needed ) than going dps and forcing healer to heal instead of dpsing.

THat healer is just a rude player who forgot what is his role. A healer can DPS when they have margin for that of course, but lets drop to 3000 HP and blame tank for that is is own fault, and no one else. I won't defend a healer who forgot he is healer only because he love DPS. THen maybe he should change to DPS class.

I'm mostly in Cleric Stance throwing out gravity, dots and cards. I'd do exactly the same as the healer in the OP and let you drop that low, before using Essential Dignity. (Ofc I probably have HoT's ticking as well) but the healer mentioned in the OP is nowhere near bad.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

THat healer is just a rude player who forgot what is his role. A healer can DPS when they have margin for that of course, but lets drop to 3000 HP and blame tank for that is is own fault, and no one else. I won't defend a healer who forgot he is healer only because he love DPS. THen maybe he should change to DPS class.

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So if a tank's hp drops in seconds because they didnt use cd's effectively thats the healers fault?

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Originally Posted by Shug

Devils advocate here, how can people here say if a healer doesn't dps they aren't playing right, but you turn around and say you shouldn't have to self heal? Wouldn't that be playing paladins class to the fullest?

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while i did say that lets set some things straight while a paladin can heal himself it costs half his mp wich he also needs for stupid things like flash.
wich doesnt mean he shouldnt use it or any other cd that should be common sense. it also should be common sense that a healer heals when a heal is needed

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Yes; DPS healers is becoming the norm, and has actually been the norm for quite some time now.

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While that is right, healers complaining about that they have to heal the tank shouldn't be the norm.

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

So if a tank's hp drops in seconds because they didnt use cd's effectively thats the healers fault?

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If he is DPSing, yes. If the tank eat a tank buster, with or without CD, and the healer didn't heal him immediatley because is DPSing, i helaer fault. If the tank isn't use CD, but still have good mitigation and the healer is DPSing, is healer fault.

If the healer is doing his job, and the tank don't use anything ,it is tank fault. I'm not saying ii is always healer fault, because that's not true. I'm saying a healer shouln't DPS if the tank HP drops too much.

I am not talking about tanks forgeting things or gettimg more damage when thay can avoid, I'm talking about a healer DSPing and forgeting heal and blaming tank. Nothing more. Also, CD are not always ready to use.

But in this case, the OP case, it is healer fault.

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Originally Posted by sorahu

healing to me seems like it becoming a more difficult class to play if they have to heal, dps, watch for mechanics and raise dps to keep doing there main jobs= dps

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It depends on how good everybody else is. If everybody is awful, low dps and constantly get hit then being a healer sucks. If they do good dps and always avoid avoidable damage then healing is incredibly easy.

I dps and play very aggressive as a healer because I enjoy it and have fun playing that way because if I did nothing but heal in dungeons I would be bored to tears. While I do dps, healing and ensuring that everyone in the group is alive and free of debuffs is my top priority and the only time I can remember a tank dieing under my care was when he DCed and ate half a dozen AOEs at once.

That aside, while your healer was probably being a jerk, tanks SHOULD use their defensive CDs. Too many tanks I see tend to ignore them because they figure the healer will get them through it.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If he is DPSing, yes. If the tank eat a tank buster, with or without CD, and the healer didn't heal him immediatley because is DPSing, i helaer fault. If the tank isn't use CD, but still have good mitigation and the healer is DPSing, is healer fault.

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I'm sorry, I can not abide by this.

If a tank dies in Sword Oath to a tank buster, that is on the tank, not the healer. I hate tanks that eat tank busters in DPS stance, pop foresight, and then blame the healer when they die.

Tanks are accountable. If they don't pop mitigation and they die, that is on them. I have had tanks eating towers in Sephirot-EX who are surprised they don't survive when they're in DPS stance and pop absolutely nothing to help the healer.

Now, if the tank pops CD's and they still die? Then yes, I can blame a healer for that. But if you're eating 20k+ damage and you only have 21k hp? Pop some ****ing mitigation.

As others have said it has been the norm for a very long time now. I have been doing it since Instarted healing. And, no, healers who don't dps are not player their job to the fullest.

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Originally Posted by Laurima

easily the most stupid thing I have ever read, like ever.

show me a healer that can out dps a Warrior. while maintaining group health pools ><

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A WHM who doesn't know WHM aoe is king... I can do 1K dps in sss, and that's single target. Put me in a group of adds where I can holy/aero III/ Assiez and no tank will touch a whm dps. And all you need in dungeons nowadys is essentially a regen on the tank, and tetra/ cure II when he dips down a ways.

Let's be honest here anything outside of savage difficulty is a joke in this game giving healers and tanks plenty of time to DPS. If it was increased you be more focus on healing and tanking and some dpsing when can squeeze it in.

Maybe we need to spend less time passing blame and fault to one another. I'm not sure it ever actually succeeds in improving player performance and just makes everyone miserable.

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Originally Posted by ElieDavion

while i did say that lets set some things straight while a paladin can heal himself it costs half his mp wich he also needs for stupid things like flash.
wich doesnt mean he shouldnt use it or any other cd that should be common sense. it also should be common sense that a healer heals when a heal is needed

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That is true. But the healer is using mp that can be used to heal as well while missing a few hits while dpsing. Like I said just playing devils advocate. I don't count on a pally to self heal. If hp gets too low, its cause I was too aggressive with my dps and I apologize and get less aggressive. Also in DF, I don't go in expecting any tank to use any cd's, so I don't yell at them when they don't, and if they do, they get a comm out of it.

As much as I used to hate healers dpsing because alot of them take it too far, don't know when to quit and let people die.. It really irks me to see healers standing around.. So yes, DPS! Healer DPSing is really too strong for its own good

The healer came off as a bit of a jerk, but they're absolutely right; they're taking advantage of their entire toolkit to meet their minimum role requirements as well as making monsters die faster. If you're a tank and don't even use one of the many defensive cooldowns you have, you're a pretty crappy tank. Healers are not there to babysit or carry you.

To confirm my post from before, I tested actual numbers today in my expert roulette:

Number of Physicks cast: 1
Number of Adlo's cast: 16
Number of Succor's cast: 0
Number of Lustrate's cast: 0

Total number of GCDs outside of Cleric Stance? 17.

As a side note, the tank never dropped below ~75% HP, and no one died (save for a DPS who got caught in animation lock LBing the final boss and killed himself and the boss in one go lol)

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If he is DPSing, yes. If the tank eat a tank buster, with or without CD, and the healer didn't heal him immediatley because is DPSing, i helaer fault. If the tank isn't use CD, but still have good mitigation and the healer is DPSing, is healer fault.

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No. Just no. In the case of the OP it really does sound like the healer was prioritizing dps too much, but the tank has responsibility to use their damage mitigation and there are cases where a player might die and it is not the healer's fault.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I'm sorry, I can not abide by this.

If a tank dies in Sword Oath to a tank buster, that is on the tank, not the healer. I hate tanks that eat tank busters in DPS stance, pop foresight, and then blame the healer when they die.

Tanks are accountable. If they don't pop mitigation and they die, that is on them. I have had tanks eating towers in Sephirot-EX who are surprised they don't survive when they're in DPS stance and pop absolutely nothing to help the healer.

Now, if the tank pops CD's and they still die? Then yes, I can blame a healer for that. But if you're eating 20k+ damage and you only have 21k hp? Pop some ****ing mitigation.

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Thank you for this.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If he is DPSing, yes. If the tank eat a tank buster, with or without CD, and the healer didn't heal him immediatley because is DPSing, i helaer fault. If the tank isn't use CD, but still have good mitigation and the healer is DPSing, is healer fault.

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It is a small bright spot that I will never have to heal you.

While a healer should be ready with a heal after a tank buster, It is fully the tanks responsibility to pop a CD during a tank buster. Unless you are so overgeared that you can easily take a tank buster in dps stance with no CD, that death is on you.

My healer last night in amdapor dpsd the entire time and we did fine AND things died very fast. I was out of there in maybe 20 minutes. It was a nice change.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

It is a small bright spot that I will never have to heal you.

While a healer should be ready with a heal after a tank buster, It is fully the tanks responsibility to pop a CD during a tank buster. Unless you are so overgeared that you can easily take a tank buster in dps stance with no CD, that death is on you.

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That's a bit of personal attack. You're are supossing I play tank without CD, or tank stance or something.

I think people is not reading me at all or I didn't expalin myselft because my english is very limited. They still think I'm blaming heals, when I'm also a healer as second class, and I fought with tanks with low Hp and not useing CD, all the days.

I will try explain myself again. If me, a healer, see the tank Hp drops, I use heal. But, if instead of heal, I see the Hp drops, but I stay on Cleric and I continue DPSing, I think it is my fault. Can be the tank fault? Yes, but then is both fault,so it is still my fault.

well back to the op and yes dpsing is the norm but as you can see some healers take it too far (like the one you had it read like he deliberatly let the tank fall to such low numbers since a tankbuster or the content you did wasnt mentioned i think so) and some tanks dont use cd (wich i also dont get why must not have been the best tank aswell) but yeah its essentially the norm :)

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

That's a bit of personal attack. You're are supossing I play tank without CD, or tank stance or something.

I think people is not reading me at all or I didn't expalin myselft because my english is very limited. They still think I'm blaming heals, when I'm also a healer as second class, and I fought with tanks with low Hp and not useing CD, all the days.

I will try explain myself again. If me, a healer, see the tank Hp drops, I use heal. But, if instead of heal, I see the Hp drops, but I stay on Cleric and I continue DPSing, I think it is my fault. Can be the tank fault? Yes, but then is both fault,so it is still my fault.

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Nope. It is the healer fault if he continues to DPS and the tank dies. But if the tank reaches 500 health and then the healer uses his cooldowns like Tetra, Essential Dignity, Lustrate. He did his job perfectly fine. Healers are here to keep you alive not to keep you at 100% all the time when it isn't even needed.

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

I think you have to understand human psychology on this one. Once healer used to stance dance and perform some useful damage, he/she will then become more and more aggresive for speed. When that happens, you start to criticize every other players and pressure them to become more better. Especially when you farming your ilevel210 relic, you have to run those 4 man dungeons like crazy. So you naturally start to develop elitist mind.. I actually believe not only healers, but also every other job should try and play their char to fullest.

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I see and I raise the pot as well, it is time for tanks and dps to step our game up and have more of elitist mindset, meaning do whatever we need to do to play all our jobs to the fullest.

A healer who doesn't or refuses to DPS is just not a good healer. They gave healers utility to deal damage for a reason, and with tanks now doing less it is far MORE important then ever for healers to do their jobs.

In most instances, low level and high I have Cleric Stance up 50% of the time now because tanks are so easy and boring to heal (due to getting 8-12k more health.)

So like bad DPS. If your healer is just standing there picking his nose when your barely taking damage you should vote kick him and get a better healer or call him out because "killing' the mob faster = less damage taken.


I actually was on the healers side of the argument before tank nerfs because a lot of the time some times the spike damage would kill the tank. However with tanks especially in instances being so meaty and boring to heal its not an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

A healer who doesn't or refuses to DPS is just not a good healer. They gave healers utility to deal damage for a reason, and with tanks now doing less it is far MORE important then ever for healers to do their jobs.

In most instances, low level and high I have Cleric Stance up 50% of the time now because tanks are so easy and boring to heal (due to getting 8-12k more health.)

So like bad DPS. If your healer is just standing there picking his nose when your barely taking damage you should vote kick him and get a better healer or call him out because "killing' the mob faster = less damage taken.


I actually was on the healers side of the argument before tank nerfs because a lot of the time some times the spike damage would kill the tank. However with tanks especially in instances being so meaty and boring to heal its not an excuse.

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No no no just no. If tanks doing less damage is slowing down runs it does NOT fall to the healers to pick up the slack. The DPS need to step up their game if it's going that slow. Healer dps is not required and saying someone is a bad healer for not dpsing is just dumb.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

A healer who doesn't or refuses to DPS is just not a good healer. They gave healers utility to deal damage for a reason

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Yes because otherwise the solo fights in the MSQ would be pretty much impossible just like fates/beast tribes etc.

Personally I don't mind if healer don't do any damage for whatever their reason may be as long as they keep everyone alive. It's not even required that they do damage outside of current end content raids anyway but that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

A healer who doesn't or refuses to DPS is just not a good healer. They gave healers utility to deal damage for a reason, and with tanks now doing less it is far MORE important then ever for healers to do their jobs.

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That's just silly now.

Oh look this thread again, this one going to reach 30 pages of people arguing also?

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

No no no just no. If tanks doing less damage is slowing down runs it does NOT fall to the healers to pick up the slack. The DPS need to step up their game if it's going that slow. Healer dps is not required and saying someone is a bad healer for not dpsing is just dumb.

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But that's what it means to be a healer! Carrying all dps is their job, not like those DPS should learn to play or even try to get better! Honestly, healer DPS is nothing but a crutch groups use to cheese fights, since it's so much easier than calling out a bad DPS for not being able to do their job. Considering the tank nerf, I'm just waiting for SE to nerf cleric stance, somehow.

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Originally Posted by sorahu

So allow me to elaborate on the title, a couple days ago In a normal run of the antitower I noticed the healer not healing the tank due to the tanks had high migration of damage from packs of mobs. So I was watching this and also noticed the healer staying in cleric stance longer and longer burning mp on trash mob, bosses etc but not healing the tank until like 3k hp left. Mind you the tank had 21,000 hp lol. Then the healer raged on the tank and told him/her to use buffs to migrate more damage

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Contrary to popular belief, a tank's job is not to just hold the hate but to mitigate incoming damage as best as possible. So if any tank, or anyone for that matter tells you the tank is doing their job by just holding hate when they're getting hit like trucks due to them ignoring CD's, they're wrong and should be kicked out of the party.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Yes because otherwise the solo fights in the MSQ would be pretty much impossible just like fates/beast tribes etc.

Personally I don't mind if healer don't do any damage for whatever their reason may be as long as they keep everyone alive. It's not even required that they do damage outside of current end content raids anyway but that's just me.

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Do you mind DPS who don't bother to dodge any not-immediately-lethal AOEs and refuse to use self-healing? I mean, worrying about HP pools and damage taken isn't *THEIR* responsibility. Doing those things exist just to help with solo MSQ fights!

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Do you mind DPS who don't bother to dodge any not-immediately-lethal AOEs and refuse to use self-healing? I mean, worrying about HP pools and damage taken isn't *THEIR* responsibility. Doing those things exist just to help with solo MSQ fights!

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If I'm just healing then no, I don't mind at all. I don't even care if they die I'll just raise.

A good healer will always DPS as well as healing. That's what the skills are there for. However, the healer in your dungeon happened to be rude about it. Healers primary job is still to heal, and no healer should ever put DPS before healing.

I don't know about normal, but I've been DPSing my heart out since my second or so run of Stone Vigil, when I realized I had MP and time between heals to spare as long as the tank was doing his job. I'm that daredevil healer who takes great satisfaction in maybe making the tank pee himself a little when he realizes he only has 300 HP left before rescuing him just in the nick of time XD.

If you're noticing it more lately, it's probably because with tanks actually wearing tank gear, even healers who maybe aren't as confident in their skills (or as cruel) as I am are finding that they have a lot of downtime to fill between heals. It gets really boring to play a class that spends 80% of their time standing around waiting for something to happen, so if you want to be good at and really enjoy the class, you find other things to do when your primary role isn't required. I assume the rest of them are just watching netflix in a second window :\.

I WILL say that the healer in the TC's run was being pretty rude, though. It doesn't sound like anyone died, so there's no reason to start screaming at the tank, especially if they still had 3k hp left...that's plenty to finish up a moderate pull, and in a big pull probably means the healer forgot to refresh medicaII and regen when they fell off.

Oh god.

Can't we just agree that a healer that doesn't dps is average while a healer that does DPS and heal is good? >.<