Thordan's Reign and Containment Bay S1T7 (Extreme)

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I personally consider a one shot mechanic something that if messed up, can and will lead to a wipe. Midas 3 and the cat hearts for example, at 2 stacks you're likely going to be one shot by his AoE.

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Eh, my definition is closer to Slappah's.

One shot = guaranteed to kill one player
Raid wipe = guaranteed to kill the whole party

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Eh, my definition is closer to Slappah's.

One shot = guaranteed to kill one player
Raid wipe = guaranteed to kill the whole party

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I agree with this.. I mean obviously depending on who that one player is it can lead to a raid wipe but.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

"Extreme"

Not

"Novice"


Also, there are no restrictions on parties, since you can make your own.

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I can't like this post hard enough. Making your own party isn't hard, people.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Am I correct in understand these fights are like T9 (maze of instant death attacks)? If so, that's troubling. Very very troubling.

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Put in the effort to learn the fight, critique yourself, learn from mistakes, and the fight will be second nature to you. It's worked for me with almost all content except A3s lol.

I think I can be the middle man here. As I understand both sides. On one hand, are the fights fun with full on mechanics, instead of fighting a training dummy. Of course. The main issue, I think is the community. I have been in countless PF parties and have seen people harassed for not enough dps, bad gear, or making silly mistakes in a PRACTICE run. Instead of moving on and trying again, like a functioning static would. You will see things like "GG scrub" or "have fun in savage".

Then everyone argues, and instead of learning the fight. Everyone will just disband. The stress of this puts people off, and I feel thats why some of the players on this forum seem intimidated by this midcore content.

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Originally Posted by Nemesis4567

I think I can be the middle man here. As I understand both sides. On one hand, are the fights fun with full on mechanics, instead of fighting a training dummy. Of course. The main issue, I think is the community. I have been in countless PF parties and have seen people harassed for not enough dps, bad gear, or making silly mistakes in a PRACTICE run. Instead of moving on and trying again, like a functioning static would. You will see things like "GG scrub" or "have fun in savage".

Then everyone argues, and instead of learning the fight. Everyone will just disband. The stress of this puts people off, and I feel thats why some of the players on this forum seem intimidated by this midcore content.

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Unfortunately the devs can't just fix the community

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Unfortunately the devs can't just fix the community

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This^. There lies the dilemma.

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Originally Posted by Nemesis4567

This^. There lies the dilemma.

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I say keep it, and not only that throw even more mechanic filled fights even in the story mode content. I'm talking Thordan Ex/A3S difficulty for the story mode content, with the difficulty ramped up even further for the harder content. That way you HAVE to work as a team to beat the content and the petty arguments will not get you anywhere because you can't just faceroll it.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I say keep it, and not only that throw even more mechanic filled fights even in the story mode content. I'm talking Thordan Ex/A3S difficulty for the story mode content, with the difficulty ramped up even further for the harder content. That way you HAVE to work as a team to beat the content and the petty arguments will not get you anywhere because you can't just faceroll it.

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Wasn't Steps of Faith like this?

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Wasn't Steps of Faith like this?

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That's what I heard, never got to attempt it before it got nerfed though, so can't speak from experience, only from what I heard on the grapevine. I do think that story content needs to push you a hell of a lot harder, and not only that but after every wipe, also say "Duty Failed" (like what happens on Bismarck if the island gets destroyed), so as to further emphasise people to try again.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Wasn't Steps of Faith like this?

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Yes, it was.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Yes, it was.

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It was no where near that difficulty. It showed how sad the development of the playerbase has been, that they could not do the minimal teamwork required to complete it. The big failure of it was that it also did not have some sort of a saved progress system and that a failure had to wait for the full trial to run it's course.

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Originally Posted by Nemesis4567

I think I can be the middle man here. As I understand both sides. On one hand, are the fights fun with full on mechanics, instead of fighting a training dummy. Of course. The main issue, I think is the community. I have been in countless PF parties and have seen people harassed for not enough dps, bad gear, or making silly mistakes in a PRACTICE run. Instead of moving on and trying again, like a functioning static would. You will see things like "GG scrub" or "have fun in savage".

Then everyone argues, and instead of learning the fight. Everyone will just disband. The stress of this puts people off, and I feel thats why some of the players on this forum seem intimidated by this midcore content.

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That's weird. All of my learning party pfs have been very friendly and productive

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I say keep it, and not only that throw even more mechanic filled fights even in the story mode content. I'm talking Thordan Ex/A3S difficulty for the story mode content, with the difficulty ramped up even further for the harder content. That way you HAVE to work as a team to beat the content and the petty arguments will not get you anywhere because you can't just faceroll it.

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Eh. This strikes me as a bad idea. While there are many people that enjoy tackling challenging content (I am one of them), just as many others do not enjoy it in the least. SE's goal with this game is to make it as accessible as possible to a wide variety of players. In keeping with that goal, participation in difficult content is and always should be optional. Steps of Faith was never anywhere near as difficult as even the easiest raid content has been; it was just a matter of getting eight randoms in Duty Finder to actually listen and work together instead of being lazy or doing their own thing. That's completely different from meeting steep DPS checks or executing difficult mechanics. Gating MSQ progression behind Gordias Savage level difficulty wouldn't make people 'git gud' if they aren't the type of player that enjoys a challenge. It would just make them quit, which is a bit self-defeating for a P2P game.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

It was no where near that difficulty. It showed how sad the development of the playerbase has been, that they could not do the minimal teamwork required to complete it. The big failure of it was that it also did not have some sort of a saved progress system and that a failure had to wait for the full trial to run it's course.

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This is a really dishonest distortion of why Steps of Faith had to be adjusted. Contrary to elitist opinion, fights like that should never be such a wall that less than 25% of the players would have access to Heavensward content. SE knew they messed up with that fight's design (mainly the dragon's obscene HP). This is coming from someone who did manage to get past that fight PRIOR to the adjustment, so you can forget about twisting my words to suit your narrative.

As for Thordan & Sephirot EX, those fights will eventually be scaled back so I have no worries about them. My issue with Extreme fights lie mainly with SE's determination of what a normal person's reaction time should be for these mechanics. I have no real problem with AoE mechanics as long as I'm allowed to get out of the way in time, but mechanics that don't allow us to anticipate where line attacks are going and push us into barriers that instantly kill us is a bridge too far (How is it no big deal if the Singularity Reactor story mode fight allows us to see where an offscreen knight is headed, but a mortal gaming sin if we asked SE to let us see that line attack in EX?).

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I say keep it, and not only that throw even more mechanic filled fights even in the story mode content. I'm talking Thordan Ex/A3S difficulty for the story mode content, with the difficulty ramped up even further for the harder content. That way you HAVE to work as a team to beat the content and the petty arguments will not get you anywhere because you can't just faceroll it.

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Players won't improve, they never do. Honestly if I have to put up with the frustrations when trying to clear EX content on content like story mode trials/dungeons/Midas Normal I'd sooner quit, it's absolutely insufferable if you're not in a static or with your FC. People quitting left and right, people joining for specific phases when they haven't reached that phase (or even close), not beating the dummy before even trying to attempt it, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Eh, my definition is closer to Slappah's.

One shot = guaranteed to kill one player
Raid wipe = guaranteed to kill the whole party

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I'd normally agree for a single player game, but I don't take the term literally in the case of an MMORPG. Besides that, I don't even think there are much one shot mechanics other than M3 which I see getting hit with the nerf bat as it's much more challenging than the other floors if the tank messes up.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Players won't improve, they never do. Honestly if I have to put up with the frustrations when trying to clear EX content on content like story mode trials/dungeons/Midas Normal I'd sooner quit, it's absolutely insufferable if you're not in a static or with your FC. People quitting left and right, people joining for specific phases when they haven't reached that phase (or even close), not beating the dummy before even trying to attempt it, etc.

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I'm sorry but I find that flat out impossible to believe that players will never improve. You just need the right motivation if you ask me. Now if Ex content in story mode content isn't it, then fair enough, but there MUST be a way to make players improve.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I'm sorry but I find that flat out impossible to believe that players will never improve. You just need the right motivation if you ask me. Now if Ex content in story mode content isn't it, then fair enough, but there MUST be a way to make players improve.

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If the content is optional they just won't do it and if the content is forced they'll either be carried through it, wait until they're overgeared or quit. They nerfed Steps of Faith for a reason, and that's because of all the awful players in a very easy encounter, laughably easy even, all it requires is communication and then it's not required if half the people there know what to do.

Could you get them to improve past the point of smashing their heads on the keyboard? Maybe, but can they get them to the point that they'll do more than 700 in full i200? Most likely no.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

SE knew they messed up with that fight's design (mainly the dragon's obscene HP).

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The boss around the same hp as t8, months after the ilvl cap was made 130, and after the catch up patch. You could dps it down without even using the dragonkillers/performing mechanics.

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Let's hope no one from Square Enix sees this thread and even more good fights get ruined the way Steps of Faith, T6-8 etc were.

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These fights were awful before and the adjustments actually made them remotely tolerable (although in my opinion, T8 is still awful)

I'm all for more changes like these.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Which is pretty sad if that's the case. If I wanted to play a game where the slightest misstep meant "you lose, do it over again", I'd go play IWBTG.

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These fights just aren't for you, I'm guessing. Either that or you've got the wrong perspective on them. Its not the repeated wipes that are fun. Its not bashing your head against something repeatedly that people like. I'd guess no one likes doing that. The fun part is the rush you get when all of your hard work pays off and you get that first clear. It can be exhilarating.

Some people love the challenge that comes with midcore and hardcore content. These are the people that these fights are designed for. Its perfectly fine if you don't like it. You don't have to do it. Its completely optional. Just don't try and take away the tiny percentage of content that appeals to MC and HC players. Casual content far outweighs difficult content in this game. You have plenty of options.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

These fights were awful before and the adjustments actually made them remotely tolerable (although in my opinion, T8 is still awful)

I'm all for more changes like these.

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I'm the opposite, I'm angry and sad that I will never get to experience those fights in their initial form; and from the upvotes (the one that was just quoted having 8 upvotes, yours having less to none, and the ones with opposing views having quite a few more) it seems that people want to keep some sort of challenge in the game. Most of the content is already easy and caters to casual players; let the midcore and hardcore players have their few difficult encounters.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

I'm the opposite, I'm angry and sad that I will never get to experience those fights in their initial form; and from the upvotes (the one that was just quoted having 8 upvotes, yours having less to none, and the ones with opposing views having quite a few more) it seems that people want to keep some sort of challenge in the game. Most of the content is already easy and caters to casual players; let the midcore and hardcore players have their few difficult encounters.

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Not arguing your point, but I thought the original mechanics were preserved and even made tougher in Second Coil Savage?

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These fights just aren't for you, I'm guessing. Either that or you've got the wrong perspective on them. Its not the repeated wipes that are fun. Its not bashing your head against something repeatedly that people like. I'd guess no one likes doing that. The fun part is the rush you get when all of your hard work pays off and you get that first clear. It can be exhilarating.

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I never got that feeling when I finally cleared T9. It was more like "thank god this torture is over with"

Similar sort of thing happened with Titan EX (which took me far longer and far more attempts to get a clear on, but that was likely because I only ever tried T9 at level 60) except that with Titan I knew I would probably need more than one clear (pony farming) so there wasn't even that sense of relief :/

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I'm angry and sad that I will never get to experience those fights in their initial form;

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This is just an inevitable sort of thing about MMORPGs (and life) that you come to accept after a while, to be honest. Nothing ever remains the same as it used to be.

Even if SE never touched the fights, the experience nowadays would still not be the same as it was at original release.

I'm used to having unpopular opinions, so you don't really need to point that part out to me.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

These fights were awful before and the adjustments actually made them remotely tolerable (although in my opinion, T8 is still awful)

I'm all for more changes like these.

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That's why Second Coil is considered the best of the three, because the fights were awful. What even is this thread?

I really hope Squeenix continues to ignore these forums.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I never got that feeling when I finally cleared T9. It was more like "thank god this torture is over with"

Similar sort of thing happened with Titan EX (which took me far longer and far more attempts to get a clear on, but that was likely because I only ever tried T9 at level 60) except that with Titan I knew I would probably need more than one clear (pony farming) so there wasn't even that sense of relief :/

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why do you torture yourself when you don't enjoy it? We have plenty of casual players in our FC that don't touch raiding and they're happy with what they chose as endgame.
The person that pointed out that your opinion is unpopular was making a point that there are a lot of people who adore and live for these kind of fights. They live for the highs of killing and for improving themselves. And there must be a place for people like them in this game.

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That's why Second Coil is considered the best of the three, because the fights were awful. What even is this thread?

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2nd coil was what held me up all the way until 3.x hit, so yeah, for me that's pretty awful. Couldn't exactly make fair evaluations of 3rd coil (which, in my opinion, has a far better balance of difficulty + epicness than 2nd did) when you couldn't even access it.

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why do you torture yourself when you don't enjoy it? We have plenty of casual players in our FC that don't touch raiding and they're happy with what they chose as endgame.

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Because some people like experiencing a game's storyline? Imagine that.

SE realized they made a mistake with putting storyline behind endgame-tier content and it is the reason why they nerfed the hell out of it and then made a "story mode" for its 3.x equivalent, Alexander. They were looking not to repeat that mistake.

These kind of fights just make me hate other ppl cause they are so simple but one person can get everyone killed or with the case of sephirot ex one death in phase 1 is pretty much a guaranteed wipe....-_-

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Originally Posted by Hayward

This is a really dishonest distortion of why Steps of Faith had to be adjusted. Contrary to elitist opinion, fights like that should never be such a wall that less than 25% of the players would have access to Heavensward content. SE knew they messed up with that fight's design (mainly the dragon's obscene HP). This is coming from someone who did manage to get past that fight PRIOR to the adjustment, so you can forget about twisting my words to suit your narrative.

As for Thordan & Sephirot EX, those fights will eventually be scaled back so I have no worries about them. My issue with Extreme fights lie mainly with SE's determination of what a normal person's reaction time should be for these mechanics. I have no real problem with AoE mechanics as long as I'm allowed to get out of the way in time, but mechanics that don't allow us to anticipate where line attacks are going and push us into barriers that instantly kill us is a bridge too far (How is it no big deal if the Singularity Reactor story mode fight allows us to see where an offscreen knight is headed, but a mortal gaming sin if we asked SE to let us see that line attack in EX?).

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I tried not to laugh when I read this. But failed. For real? Elitest? Oh my.

Omg! I beat this fight befor the nerf! So I'm right!

His health was high, that was so you would do the mechanics... imagine that. I beat it my first df btw, before the nerf, so you can forget.about something something my words and stuff.

Also, "the mechanics in ex are harder than story! Make them the same!" Lol. "Why can't we have the training wheel tells for everything?!" Tbh when I started playing this game, I was like "what is this, for training new people?"

Steps of Faith WAS fine. Mechanically. Now you can just zerg down the boss and ignore everything else they bothered to put in. What's the point in that? And you could still complete it even if you failed one of the set piece interactions, but you at least had to succeed at a few of them.The only reason it was an issue is because up until that point in the game everything is genuinely faceroll.

Consider new players at the time, every single trial they do up until that point is just a mind-less instant-pull zergfest from impatient roulette tome / zodiac light grinders who severely outgear them. Well, now Steps is too! I suppose you can't blame anyone for expecting more of the same though, they don't expect to have to read text or go ham. Interact with the objects when he reaches the big red target zones and the text bubbles go "NOW, ACTIVATE THIS", several moments after "GET READY TO USE THIS" is too much for 8 people to adjust to. All it took was agreeing who does what at the start for half the group, but ain't nobody got time for that. And that's not even on the subject of Extremes which are, you know, supposed to be hard, but that doesn't bode well apparently.

On the subject of reaction times, while you can react on the fly in extremes, really you should be knowing when they're coming and getting ready to move then. Don't leave anything to chance.

In all likelihood I will never be stepping inside Thordan's Reign (or any other piece of content labeled Extreme or Savage) so to satisfy my curiosity I had a look at the fight on Youtube. It looks absolutely terrifying :P

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

These kind of fights just make me hate other ppl cause they are so simple but one person can get everyone killed or with the case of sephirot ex one death in phase 1 is pretty much a guaranteed wipe....-_-

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before the adds phase where he walks away you can recover the dead. One DPS down will not wipe the party when they have to take the two circles. Meaning besides a DPS loss and needing to waste that 3000 mana on a rez, a wipe of one person doesn't actually cause the group to wipe.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Because some people like experiencing a game's storyline? Imagine that.

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oh I agree with you there. I like it far more the way it is now, a casual normal mode and a savage mode for raiders. That being said in 3.0 and onwards you literally have no reason to even step into the raiders content, meaning you can stop complaining about it now :)

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Yes, it was.

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No it wasn't. Steps of Faith was a faceroll easy content which only needed *gasp* a little bit of communication between 8 people (the horror !)

The only remotely hard content in its prime days which wasn't a raid was Amdapor keep's Demon wall with the bees, and even that got nerfed because "QQ 2 hard 2 netflix while being carried"

Don't get me started on Pharos Sirius