Bitter White Mages

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Originally Posted by Cyrocco

As I said, there isn't a conflict. Nocturnal voids Adloquium. Diurnal doesn't have any affect on White Mage skills. You're trying to support an invalid argument by fabricating a problem.

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I agree with this.
Last time I've been with an AST in A4Normal they were in Noct. I politely asked them to go Diurnal since shields don't stack and he would've overwritten my adlos even if they were a crit.
They said "Then let me shield". Since shielding is 90% of my healing I tried to explain why it would've been better to go diurnal since at least one of us had a choice. After he kept being a jerk I then said I wouldn't be shielding, and I gladly spent the whole time in Cleric Stance while watching the party getting killed (everyone else was agreeing with me fyi).
Diurnal with a WHM is totally different. You don't overwrite regens, and there's little to no need for actual, serious mitigation (and stoneskin is enough) in 90% of the 8-men instances.
And let's look at reality, a static that wants to be efficient won't go ast+whm.
There's no reason to go Noct with a WHM unless you KNOW you need a shield (but let's remember they have a "sacred soil" even in diurnal) at a certain point, while there's every reason to never go noct with a SCH.
A SCH that sees a 6k crit overwritten by a shield that will merely shield 2k at best has every reason to be at least a bit mad, a WHM that sees one more regens doesn't.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

This is my experience as well. But I've seen it from a few co-healer WHMs as well.

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I have as well, but not many, I can literally count on one hand how many WHM rude Whom I personally have run into and that's 3, arguably 4 but the last one was bosses outside of dungeons she was in my FC so I'm not sure if she counts.

In fact sometime pairing a diurnal AST with a whm can be good
I mean i did run A1S with my static as diurnal AST and paired with a whm
As diurnal i handle Faust and P1 and the whm DPS

During the fight medica2 and aspected helios work really well for gunnary pod or jumps

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Going noct is dumb with a SCH...
Except if you plan to only spam raw heal like helios and benefict
And maybe saving 1 person with an instant shield

Otherwise... Not good, you're slower and no utility at all beside cards

I was in Alex the other day and I started to hard cast raise (with a notification) and then shortly afterwards the WHM started doing it too, so we were both doing it. I was like errr wtf but thought i should pull out to actually heal people and then the WHM did it too. Twice not paying attention! It caused the situation to get worse and then for us to wipe. and then they just said "I hate astros" in the party chat. When I pointed out i was already hard casting raising, with a notification that they didn't notice. They were all "you didn't notice I had POM on!"

Just awful attitude.

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Originally Posted by Nathair

I agree with this.
Last time I've been with an AST in A4Normal they were in Noct. I politely asked them to go Diurnal since shields don't stack and he would've overwritten my adlos even if they were a crit.
They said "Then let me shield". Since shielding is 90% of my healing I tried to explain why it would've been better to go diurnal since at least one of us had a choice. After he kept being a jerk I then said I wouldn't be shielding, and I gladly spent the whole time in Cleric Stance while watching the party getting killed (everyone else was agreeing with me fyi).
Diurnal with a WHM is totally different. You don't overwrite regens, and there's little to no need for actual, serious mitigation (and stoneskin is enough) in 90% of the 8-men instances.
And let's look at reality, a static that wants to be efficient won't go ast+whm.
There's no reason to go Noct with a WHM unless you KNOW you need a shield (but let's remember they have a "sacred soil" even in diurnal) at a certain point, while there's every reason to never go noct with a SCH.
A SCH that sees a 6k crit overwritten by a shield that will merely shield 2k at best has every reason to be at least a bit mad, a WHM that sees one more regens doesn't.

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This has been happening to myself as well alot in df while i am on sch. Get an AST who goes nocturnal and refuses to switch, no matter how many people explain why they should be in diurnal. I have also started doing what you do and just sit in clerics and let them suffer (but make sure we dont wipe). I main AST, have mained SCH from 2.0-3.1, and i just cringe when this happens.

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Originally Posted by Zaj_Quilos

I was in Alex the other day and I started to hard cast raise (with a notification) and then shortly afterwards the WHM started doing it too, so we were both doing it. I was like errr wtf but thought i should pull out to actually heal people and then the WHM did it too. Twice not paying attention! It caused the situation to get worse and then for us to wipe. and then they just said "I hate astros" in the party chat. When I pointed out i was already hard casting raising, with a notification that they didn't notice. They were all "you didn't notice I had POM on!"

Just awful attitude.

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PoM is the same as lightspeed for AST (lightspeed is greater but well...)
Thinking that he was right because he is a whm
Means that he did not understand the healing synergie

Plus whm are helpless without AST or sch

Well, the thing is, people have a lot of misconception about AST, with all the buff, nerf and whatever that happens, it might add to the confusion.
Now back to the diurnal/nocturnal discussion, I really despise nocturnal for how inefficient it is, even when paired with a whm.
As someone that played in raid content every healer in the game, I can see when a tool is flawed for a heal, and noct stance is, but sometimes, even trying to argue and defending your point is cause for bitter insult.
I remember that farm party in thordan ex where I was playing AST diurnal with a WHM, the heal was going fine, no deaths because of that, even managed to dps a lot, but we kept wiping because of stupid (dps eating the gaze, tank not positioning correctly).
After countless wipes, they got the nerve to tell "a thordan ex party with an AST in diurnal and a WHM was doomed to fail anyway" then many of them ragequitted.
Well sorry, next time, I'll shield you before you take the gaze and run in the death floor or eat a divebomb right in the face, that'll do the trick.
So to go back to the OP, you can run with no issue at all with AST diurnal and WHM, we already tested in 3.0 savage raid and all the new 3.2 content (except savage at the moment) and it works wonder.
However, never ever use noct stance with SCH, or else you deserve all the bitter comment you can get.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

PoM is the same as lightspeed for AST (lightspeed is greater but well...)
Thinking that he was right because he is a whm
Means that he did not understand the healing synergie

Plus whm are helpless without AST or sch

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I mained WHM before AST and know how fast POM is so even if I saw it, it wouldn't have affected my decision.

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Originally Posted by Zaj_Quilos

I mained WHM before AST and know how fast POM is so even if I saw it, it wouldn't have affected my decision.

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Yes i do agree
If you start hard casting it
The other healer should focus on healing
It's useless to compete on who can cast faster XD

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Originally Posted by AngelicSence

It's natural to react when someone being mean to you. He is simply telling his story when teaming up with WHMs. He said white mages tent to argue. That is not an attack on player base or anything close. I think enought players answered his question at this point. Reporting is meaningless.

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Actually no. The OP pretty much just says "WHMs are mean, my friends say so too, no offense lol" and then refers to one vague example of when someone said something about what stance they were in. One example is not indicative of anything, sorry.

I could just as easily reverse the logic:
I know it's really bad stereotyping but it feels like every time someone has a problem with healing they're an AST (one time I healed with an AST and they were so bad), and I ran this by people in my company and they notice ASTs tend to be terrible at everything when it comes to raids and healing, what's the deal qwq

Oh but I'm just "telling my story", no need to get offended right?

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

Actually no. The OP pretty much just says "WHMs are mean, my friends say so too, no offense lol" and then refers to one vague example of when someone said something about what stance they were in. One example is not indicative of anything, sorry.

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I actually agree with Faize. In the beginning people kept it reasonably neutral, debating about Diurnal efficacy when paired with WHM, but too many of the more recent comments are just thinly-veiled job hate. Who cares if SCHs are mean to you sometimes? Who cares if the terrible healer you got in Void Ark happened to be AST? For one, have some perspective - people might think you're "mean" when you're just being blunt or efficient. People might think you're "bad" because you did one thing here when you should have done some other thing, but you normally know what you're on about. Do you want your every move to be scrutinized in future runs and have that person use it as a reflection for your entire job? What the heck is even the POINT of this thread? Debating which stance to use as an Astrologian depending on your co-healer, or a catty gripe thread where you air all your grudges for everyone to see?

That's okay though, looking forward to "I got a verbal smackdown on the forum from an AST so now I think all ASTs are poo".

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

Actually no. The OP pretty much just says "WHMs are mean, my friends say so too, no offense lol" and then refers to one vague example of when someone said something about what stance they were in. One example is not indicative of anything, sorry.

I could just as easily reverse the logic:
I know it's really bad stereotyping but it feels like every time someone has a problem with healing they're an AST (one time I healed with an AST and they were so bad), and I ran this by people in my company and they notice ASTs tend to be terrible at everything when it comes to raids and healing, what's the deal qwq

Oh but I'm just "telling my story", no need to get offended right?

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Go ahead, make that post, get us buffed again, see if I care.

I have not seen WHMs being overly rude or bitter in any way, and I refuse to heal in Noct stance unless I absolutely have to because we need the shields.
The main reason being that my MP management is more on the poor side, and with shields shattering after every hit, I'd be out of MP after a few casts. I'm also one of those healers who like to dps, and Diurnal lets me do that better.
As a former WHM main and SCH hater, regen is way more up my alley than SCH-like Noct Stance anyway.

Also, while mitigation is nice and everything, unless one hit instantly kills people without mitigation, I feel it's wasted. With double regen on them from both WHM and AST, the HoT ticks are so strong, you can stay in Cleric Stance for extended amounts of time, and regen stays active a lot longer than those shields would stay. And most WHMs seem to totally accept that.

The only one who is bitter is me, whenever I end up with another AST in roulette and they see my stance and turn on the same one..>->

I play as an AST and I find Diurnal as the stance I go to most. I always use it when paired with a SCH and then I will switch stances based upon the encounter when paired with a whm. I got Noct when I can predict than incoming damage and Diurnal when damage is unpredictable.

There is something to be said about the flexibility AST provides.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well one thing to remember when comparing Diurnal and Nocturnal. Yes shields are nice and if I heal for 2000 then it's a 2600 barrier. On the other hand Diurnal regen is 1100 a tick for 18s. So more healing without having to recast. Diurnal also gives AST a 5% Attack speed buff which is better for dps than a 5% healing buff that Nocturnal does. As much as we want Noct to be good paired with WHM it's really not.

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This. So many times I put up shields with my AST and before I can really go back to doing much dps the shields are already gone and they need more heals. Diurnal HoT really does stack nicely with WHM Medica and allow for more time spent DPSing by the AST in my experience.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

This. So many times I put up shields with my AST and before I can really go back to doing much dps the shields are already gone and they need more heals.

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AST got Stoneskin?

Dem feels.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I actually agree with Faize. In the beginning people kept it reasonably neutral, debating about Diurnal efficacy when paired with WHM, but too many of the more recent comments are just thinly-veiled job hate. Who cares if SCHs are mean to you sometimes? Who cares if the terrible healer you got in Void Ark happened to be AST? -SNIPPED FOR MY CONVENIENCE- Do you want your every move to be scrutinized in future runs and have that person use it as a reflection for your entire job? What the heck is even the POINT of this thread? Debating which stance to use as an Astrologian depending on your co-healer, or a catty gripe thread where you air all your grudges for everyone to see?

That's okay though, looking forward to "I got a verbal smackdown on the forum from an AST so now I think all ASTs are poo".

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Can this just replace every post in this thread and be stickied?

Omg, see guys? I told you all that ASTs were super mean. Q_Q

Personally all my post was about was to say my experience was different, does it mean that all SCH are mean, no because to be quite honest the meanest healer I've ever met was another WHM in my own FC. The OP said that most WHM seem to be mean and I was simply pointing out the fact that my experience was different.

Like in my experience WAR tends to run off more when I play for some reason, but my brother says PLD runs off more when he plays. There's nothing wrong with talking about your experience as long as you don't make assumptions about the entire class. Like saying Melee DPS don’t dodge AOE.

I'm fine with both SCH and WHM. With a SCH, I always go diurnal. With WHM, it depends on the WHM and the fight.

I almost always hate being paired with another AST though. Not because of the sects, but because of the cards. I have seen a depressing amount of other AST overwrite my AOE balance that was only 10 seconds in.

Wasn't there a for-laughs healer stereotype thread or something? This would've been better off there without the added forum angst. Or was this meant to be a serious thread?

A lot of times I run Diurnal with a WHM simply because I never know exactly how trustworthy their healing will be. >.> Especially if it's in brand new content that I've (and most likely the WHM) never run before. Plus, is there ever really any harm in having double regens? :P

If a WHM complains because you're in Diurnal, they're stupid. It's not like your regens don't stack with/override theirs (as Noct shields do with SCH's), and I've been in several instances where opting for the doubled-up regens is more effective than running Noct. (One of which I can immediately recall was when I was first learning A2S, until I got a bit more comfortable with the flow of damage and required HPS for my tank.) Of course, that's not to say that mitigation isn't useful, especially in the form of the instant shield that Aspected Benefic provides. But still, for most content... There's really not much of a difference. It comparable to having two WHMs in a party, only one has some badass buffing abilities to spice things up a bit.

Sometimes it seems like ASTs can never win though: if you run Diurnal with a WHM, you get chewed out because you "should be running Nocturnal". If you run Noct, you get chewed out because "Nocturnal is useless and you should never use it". I swear to god. AST has been out for long enough, and though it may take more than an "average" player to be able to make the class shine (in the words of Yoshi P, anyhow), it's kind of baffling how few people really know how the class works and its potential...

A lot of times the issue with Diurnal Astro paired with a White Mage is they will think they are another White Mage. So they will play like one when the job and skills aren't exactly that, and sometimes both thinking they are main healers. So Diurnal with White Mage many times ends up in overheal. I can assure most say something like they just "prefer the stance". So they don't care that WHM regen skills have more potency per tick and the skill regen is longer, and that is where the double regen argument ends. Astro AB is not exactly regen, it is a front-loaded heal then regen ticks. So common scenarios WHM that had regen a GCD or more quicker than the AST and they are now at full HP, so now their late AB is already an overheal. Things like that add-up.

Then the obvious factor of not having mitigation for fights that can need it like Seph Ex, Thordan Ex, A4S. If those primal LB bars/stacks build up too high, you have no shield mitigation to protect against those, and effectively killed most if not all the party. Now the Astro has no one to blame but themselves. Of course those primals (not A4S) have been solo healed without mitigation, but it's not always a perfect world either and the job of a healer to keep everyone alive. The wrong stance can be part of that factor.

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Originally Posted by technole

snipety snipsnip.

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And here comes the funny part: The AST that think they're the main healer should reconsider their stance. Diurnal helps alot with dps with passive 5% atk speed and HoTs to act as a fairy replica. And then another thing. There are good and bad players. So ofc there'll be bad ASTs and those bad ASTs won't understand there are fights that need nocturnal. In the perfect world everyone would understand basic logic and apply it onto a game. But sadly it's not like that.

Looking from the sidelines, the diurnal vs nocturnal debate is starting to look a lot like eos vs selene debate before HW. It even includes the "why doesn't the other healer choose the opposite" aspect.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

Diurnal helps alot with dps with passive 5% atk speed and HoTs to act as a fairy replica.

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Same would apply when they're in the main healer seat, though. Being in the main healer seat doesn't mean you're only healing

I play all 3 healers and I've never experienced this, either while playing my AST or playing as another healer with an AST. I will say though, there seems to be a lot of debate on which sect to use when in group with a WHM. Double regens are powerful, it's basically like having 2 WHMS in group which can work out just fine. I always ask the WHM if they have a preference, if they don't I choose based on the fight

Casual content the double regen debate won't matter that much, because you can duty finder queue the content with any job combination, and they design the content to allow any healer/tank/dps jobs to clear that content. While it's not ideal to same sect stuff, there are advantages to having the right healer combo/sects cause it's not a perfect world. What if people get vulnerability stacks due to mechanic mess-ups? The current dollar-store stoneskin, if either ever bothers to use it due to lack of a mitigation healer, it might not even save them compared to a nice 130%+ HP shield. It's kind of embarrassing to see healers ignore these things, all because they have a "sect they prefer". But alas, this is how you tell the good Astros form the not-so-good.

Then is double regen "powerful" when both have to heal from well behind in HP due to lack of shielding for mechanics? No. There is a reason no serious savage raid group goes double White Mage. When you are progressing with content where you barely meet the ilevel, stuff is going to hurt harder than it normally would if you were to overgear. This content you can't duty finder, it has to be pre-made and you'll take the right combo of jobs because of raid synergy.

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Originally Posted by technole

Casual content the double regen debate won't matter that much, because you can duty finder queue the content with any job combination, and they design the content to allow any healer/tank/dps jobs to clear that content.

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i can solo heal any casual content with my whm, so who cares what the other healer does? :x okay, A7 is probably not completely solo-heal-able xD

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Originally Posted by Tint

i can solo heal any casual content with my whm, so who cares what the other healer does? :x okay, A7 is probably not completely solo-heal-able xD

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I actually mentioned solo healer a few posts before this one. I think A7 will be able to with gear progression. Boss just has a ton of HP.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i can solo heal any casual content with my whm, so who cares what the other healer does? :x okay, A7 is probably not completely solo-heal-able xD

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SCH can solo heal a7. Selene/Eos can fit through the bars and escape the healer confinement. ;3