It's not circular. You know what the cooldowns on those abilities are.. theyre MINUTES. What I don't get is how you can't comprehend that non pvp abilities for tanks do not HELP TANKING in pvp. I can't build enimity can I? There is no taunt in ffxiv is there? The only thing I have is stun. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? And what am I supposed to be doing when those oh so wonderful pvp tanking utilities are on long ass cooldowns? Stun every 20 seconds. Wonderful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
And yes, I know the changes were for Feast and PVE. How many times do I have to acknowledge that? But balancing forFeast and PVE has totally screwed over tanks in terms of leveling (killing stuff 20% slower in quests, leves, etc), and frontlines when yes, the role ofthe tank included dps. And you know what? Stop complaining about 1v1 bro - this isn't a 1v1 game and how many times do I have to mention that to you? Obviously you do have a reading comprehension problem.
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02-26-2016, 01:43 AMP4X0R10N
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02-26-2016, 02:21 AMDimitriiI'll end up regretting answering this since it's probably just a troll but eh wth. I've already stated I main dragoon in PVP so yes of course I have 1 v 1 brds, nins, and smn because they are free kills for dragoons when you catch those jobs alone. And yes I am from the primal data center so whoever that nin is I've probably killed multiple times already so what of it. None of this is even relevant to what I said about warriors. The fact of the matter is, back before nerf and cooldown availability being equal on both sides, if you are a war killed by a nin it says alot more about you being a bad war than it does about the nin being a good nin.Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
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02-26-2016, 02:26 AMIagainsti#MaelstrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
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02-26-2016, 02:46 AMDimitriiLmao this is your reason as to why warrior needs to retain it's previous dps output? To kill mobs 20% faster in quests, leves, etc? That's hilarious. Let's go ahead and buff up whm, sch, and ast dmg output for those very same reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by P4X0R10N
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02-26-2016, 03:00 AMUltear_MilkovichAfaik healers dont need a dps buff as their cleric stance is already very potent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
The three healer jobs A4S dummies in SSS require around 970 dps or so to be done (maybe 950 as AST). The WAR dummy needs 888 dps exactly. The DRK dummy is at 827.
So even before the 20% nerf (add 20% to figures above) there were no significant gap between a WHM dps and a DRK dps for solo quests leves etc.
By no significant i mean 10% perhaps.
On top on that keep in mind that healers DPS is kinda straight forward and dont require to build specific conditions like for feel cleave etc. Pop holy: kaboom.
Sorry but healers jobs have never been weak dps wise.
By no mean. Your comparison is invalid. -
02-26-2016, 03:30 AMFebrusThis is true. Just Fyi, I have stood toe to toe against Nin's, Brd's, and Smn's on my Pld and still came out on top, and Pld has one of the weakest Dps kits in the game. Of the 3, Nin are the easiest because they don't have the range advantage. If a PLD can do this, then a War should have been having absolutely no trouble (pre-patch), especially given how easy it is to utilize their kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
I hate War's. They're my least favorite tank in the game. I barely use mine, but the first day I ran on War in Seize, I netted a battle fever. By the end of the match, I died 1 time. ONE. I didn't even swap my AP points to use the damn job. I just had to Fell Cleave my way through every squishy target I saw and poof. Top marks. Given that War is the tank I am, by far, the worst at, this was enough evidence for me that War could do with a nerf. -
02-26-2016, 04:46 AMReen24
i beat shalua lie 30 times, im on my nba finals grind. she aint got shit on me.
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02-26-2016, 05:14 AMShaluaLie
I take offense to that kind sir. my heart is broken =[
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02-26-2016, 05:31 AMSainCheese
Dimitrii,
Wasn't a troll. It was a fact. Plus, because you don't know who Shalua Lie is, it leads me to believe you hardly ever pvp. People know how good Shalua is all be it on the same team or opposing. It is an understatement to say Shalua is the best ninja on primal data center, Who I myself have dualed for shit and giggles. Hardest fight of my life since the release of Wolves Den way back when.. something else I assume you werent around for.
So here's me officially calling you out, I want to see your swagoon beat Shalua in a strait up 1v1. That would make my year and I will praise you for being the best damn dragoon ever. -
02-26-2016, 05:35 AMazlewood
why didn't they just nerf warriors......... why do we all have to suffer?????????????????????????
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02-26-2016, 05:49 AMIagainsticheck this bait, I don't believe not nerfing Dark Knights would help your average <35k damage dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by azlewood
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02-26-2016, 05:52 AMSainCheeseDAAAYYUUUMQuote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
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02-26-2016, 06:05 AMReen24
dayummmmmmmm, its getting heated in this bitch.
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02-26-2016, 06:09 AMIagainstiQuote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
https://media.giphy.com/media/13nvd1Px2ORg7m/giphy.gif
Sadly though, my latest ventures into FL have been on BLKmage, which I'm still trying to get the hang of, and my overall damage isn't much better xD
I seriously miss when lvl 50 72 man Secure was cool -
02-26-2016, 06:25 AMFebrusJust putting this out there ... You know, for reference purposes ...Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
https://xivpvp.com/character/3884164/Sain-Cheese
https://xivpvp.com/character/2293767/Knives-Stryfe -
02-26-2016, 06:35 AMIagainstiTread lightly dude; talking smack is fun, but this is borderline griefing. all it'd take is one complaint(not from me though; I ain't no snitch) ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Those overall damage numbers tho..... #DAMNDANIEL #MaelstrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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02-26-2016, 06:37 AMSainCheesePull up my wolves den matches too. Nice to know that's Knives though. Now I know he's full of shit. The one drg that as soon as somebody targets him runs away. Seen him tuck tail from a monk because he didn't have lb. And he comes in here acting all bad. I'll be seeing your ass in feast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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02-26-2016, 07:09 AMFebrusThat's true. Hopefully no one is that bitter though. Besides, like I said before, I just posted it for reference purposes. I don't have a dog in this fight. I was just pointing out that the sheer number of matches seems to indicate that they've done a lot of Seize. Regardless, I'm not trying to get into it with anyone except on the field ... I tell you now, though, the wait for Feast is painful. These two weeks are brutal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
Sadly, the WD information is not nearly as detailed and does not count retroactively beyond the life of the site, meaning any matches you played before Seize came out are likely to be absent. Kinda curious how they'll mod this when Feast comes out. Regardless, you both have fairly substantial records. 900 and 2000 matches in seize alone is pretty hefty, so I'd say you've both been doing your fair share of PvP. I was just pointing that out. As for how well you actually play, who knows? You'll have to meet up on the field and test each other out. Look forward to those Feast matches ... and duels, if and when SE gets around to implementing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
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02-26-2016, 07:25 AMTheWaywardWind90% of this comment is completely irrelevant to PvP. If you're concerned about Warriors not being able to kill shit in quests (LOL, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS, EVERY MOB IN EVERY QUEST EVER IS A TOTAL PUSHOVER), you're in the wrong forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by P4X0R10N
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02-26-2016, 07:36 AMTheWaywardWindQuote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
kek, get back to me when you read the other 95% of my post and bring something of value to the discussion, child.
Also, "I don't use it" is not a valid reason for "it doesn't count."
Just because you ignore something doesn't mean it stops existing. Feel free to go back and review what I said, rather than latching onto one sentence of my post and going "LEL GET OFF THE GRASS." Poor b8 m8. -
02-26-2016, 07:55 AMIagainstiThis is too cute XDQuote:
Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind
Keep keen, jellybean <3 /soothe
FYI, I did read your post. While I see your argument that a Warrior had a lot of survivabilty, and the nerf to damage output was a trade off for more survivabilty, I just dont agree with that being a preferred niche to place the class in, tanks aren't tanks in pvp, so all this added survivabilty coupled with a damage decrease just makes the class ignorable by opponents. Warrior now slid down the threat scale, and all the hp and survivabilty you mention puts a big, "CC this until all threats are dealt with" over our heads.
That said, I quoted "5%" of your post bc that is all I wanted to reply too, seeing how I made the above argument 3 pages ago, and across other threads. The moko grass kicker was more or less a joke concerning IB used in lvl 60 pvp, sorry that your instinct to patronize trumps your sense of humour.
Go ahead and continue to be condescending towards me though; I have tough skin( thank you Vengeance), I'm sure you're swatting the ladies away with that kind of charm ;D -
02-26-2016, 07:56 AMTheWaywardWindThat's what I thought. <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
buh bye felicia -
02-26-2016, 08:28 AMDimitriiI'm full of shit yet you are the one making baseless claims about that guy being the best ninja in the data center and recounting imaginary instances where I supposedly run from a phantom monk because I don't have a lb which you somehow through what I can only assume to be clairvoyant means know I do not have. Not even gonna bother to ask who this monk is since I know he doesn't exist lol. And yes I do run away on occasions, I already admitted pre nerf I always ran from war's so what of it? I don't have pocket heals or dps buddies I queue with watching my back and lots of ppl don't like me as is so forgive me for not waltzing up to ppl to let them cc lock me and kill me. You want me to 1v1 your friend? Sure, tell him to stand unhidden in front of Mael spawn lmao. I could not careless about being the best drg in the data center, I never claimed I was.Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
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02-26-2016, 09:15 AMP4X0R10N
Why can't warriors have dps and survivabiity? What does that break in the context of pvp? Seriously. Y'all just mad cuz u don't understand
tanks<melee dps<ranged dps<tanks
I thought that should be apparent given the kits each class received and evident by the fact that Feast probably requires 1 tank 1 melee dps 1 ranged dps 1 healer.
Stop being mad cuz u can't beat a war 1v1 as melee dps. Working as intended. Same as how I'm not mad that I'd get beaten by a ranged dps if he knows how to kite. -
02-26-2016, 09:24 AMP4X0R10N
Inner beast lmao... U realize the only thing tank stance gives is hp right? Like literally no mitigation. people only switch to it to cast equilibrium or thrill of battle and thrill of war while running away. And if ur running its prolly more than 1 person chasing. 1 inner beast isn't gonna do jack to save u.
It might be good in 1v1s though... But I guess that's all u care about right? Scrub -
02-26-2016, 09:39 AMTheWaywardWindIt appears you have no understanding of the term "class balance" if all of that seems fine and dandy. See, here's the thing: there's an inherent problem with one class if it seriously outweighs its counterparts and every other class out there. A tank should not be a near-undefeatable rolling wave of 7k+ crits and 17k+ HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by P4X0R10N
I'm sorry if you don't understand how this works; my only suggestion for you is to git gud. -
02-26-2016, 09:43 AMTheWaywardWindCalling me "too cute" and saying things like "/soothe" and "you're smoking something if you think x and y and z," is not being humorous, it's being condescending. The fact that you're back-pedaling so far as to insinuate you were being humorous is actually laughable in itself and I invite you to practice what you preach instead of getting petulant when someone calls you out on your bullshit, broski.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
Next time don't dish what you can't take. The hypocrisy in this post is so palpable I'm choking on it. ;) -
02-26-2016, 09:51 AMLambdafishSomeone call the eorzian police, because I just witnessed a murderQuote:
Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind
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02-26-2016, 10:23 AMReen24
we doing the thing?
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02-26-2016, 10:29 AMSainCheeseGive us your skype, we'll get in a match together and put this to rest. That easy. If you accept, gl. It's a fight I definitely want to see. Please prove my baseless claims wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
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02-26-2016, 12:54 PMDimitriiHmm perhaps I should have wrote the following in italics to make the sarcasm more discernibleQuote:
Originally Posted by Reen24
Cause right there I just told your friend to do the FFXIV PVP equivalent of telling someone to wait for them by standing on the tracks of an active railroad track. As in you can die by that oncoming train coming at you while waiting for me cause no, I am not gonna go through the effort of trying for god knows how long to coax the game into placing me in the same lobby as you just to fight a NIN I've probably already run into and killed dozens of times before (and vice versa). Even if we were to synchronize our queue through voice chat or whatever that still doesnt guarentee we will be placed in the same lobby. I'm sure I'll run into him eventually but its not gonna be because I'm actively looking for him fk that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
Go to the site Februs linked earlier, sort by data center and job and bam there you go. The guy statistically speaking isnt even the best NIN in his own GC let alone the data center for the past week. Even if you discount the NIN's with less than 20 matches as well as that Nin up top who's numbers are obviously skewed due to the presence of the two pocket slaves he carries with him, there's still at least 2 other nins ranked higher than him who solo queue. This is even discounting the fact that this Ninja prodigy of yours queues with a sch himself for at least a third of his matches. I'm not saying he's a bad nin but calling him the best in the data center is baseless. And how exactly do you hope to prove his supposed title of best nin in the data center when my pvp main is drg and not nin anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by SainCheese
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02-26-2016, 01:46 PMPibz
It was a good decision, tanks easily matching DPS classes raw values was silly, though SE should plan some adjustments to utility, specially DRK and WAR to make them realize this role further.
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02-26-2016, 03:31 PMAshenStar
Thread got derailed by kids epeen waving... Sigh.
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02-26-2016, 05:40 PMZalestra
If warrior is actually useless in Feast like I am predicting I will continue to bitch in this thread. Until then, I shall hold my tongue. Here's to hoping that I am wrong. :/
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02-26-2016, 05:47 PMSoular
If WAR/DRK end up being more harmful than helpful in comparison to PLD due to this, maybe something will change.
I don't think it'll happen, but we haven't seen what The Feast is going to be like yet. Can't really base much other than raw number data in FL.
As it stands right now though, I'm betting on PLD to be the go-to tank for The Feast; simply for utility, especially with the changes to Clemency and Divine Veil. -
02-26-2016, 06:55 PMFebrusI doubt this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soular
From a utility stand point, yes, Pld's are looking good, but they really shouldn't be any better off than the other two. You have to keep in mind that most of Pld's utility is tied behind obnoxiously long CD timers. It's not like they can DV/Testudo/cover the team whenever they feel like it. They have to decide when and where their abilities will be useful. Clemency might piss a few people off, but they can only use that 3 times (4 with stretch mp) before they run dry. They also have no way to Sure Cast.
Further, their PvP kit is very similar to the other two tanks. In the case of War's, it's almost identical (Testudo = Thrill of war. Glory Slash + Mythril Tempest. Full Swing = Full Swing. Push Back = Push Back), only Pld's fall behind in Dps. They were also hit with the dmg nerf. Even with the potency buffs they received to GB and RA, their new Dps numbers are on par, if not lower, than what it was before the patch (a lot of Pld's are very pissed about this over on the Tank forums). So, they won't be contributing to the kill count any more than the other two tanks.
All things considered, the three tanks should be fairly equal now in terms of utility in Feast. The only problem will be learning how to play for party utility rather than Dps. Seasoned Pld's will have a slight advantage here, since they'll be used to it. Their dmg always sucked, so Pld's only ever played for party utility. War's who were around during the Secure days will probably get back on the bicycle pretty quickly too, because, back then, they didn't have the the same Dps and played very similarly to Pld's (utility, rather than kills/Dps). The newer generation of tanks, on the other hand, will probably have a very steep learning curve when Feast comes out. Playing for utility is much more difficult than simply whacking away with mindless Fell Cleaves, so a lot of War's who lack Secure / WD experience will probably fall flat on their faces. The good among them will adapt and get stronger. The bad will cry about their job being broken. -
02-27-2016, 07:50 AMZalestra
^ I disagree with you. PLD has way more utility. You completely ignored protect, stoneskin, and STUN LOCKING (big one here). Warriors cannot stun lock nearly as effectively as PLD can. And I dont know why MP would be an issue, riot blade can get you mp back so? Im not hugely familiar with with PLD so maybe riot blade isnt that good, but its still a way to get mp back.
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02-27-2016, 10:00 AMNektulos-Tuor
Tanks should have DPS of Ranged Characters because their damage comes from being in the thick of it. They also need the survivability to get to that person to deal that damage, and they also put themselves in a position to do that.
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02-27-2016, 02:08 PMjonbo
I love you guys. Come pop Heavenscrackers with me
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02-28-2016, 06:56 AMFebrusYou're inflating Pld's utility a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zalestra
Firstly, Protect means next to nothing in PvP, and you have a healer for that. By comparison, Stone skin is more useful, but, again, you have a healer for that. The only time Pld brings an advantage in Stone skin casts is in 4 man groups, where the healer might be overtaxed casting heals. However, this is still not a utility advantage. It's just a different utility.
Party utility is not a flat scale where you can just pile all your bricks in one spot and say it's "better" or "worse" than the other pile. Party utility is a sliding scale. The defensive utility that Pld's gain by casting stone skin and clemency is lost in offensive utility. That's huge, because that extra bit of Dps can mean the life or death of a target that your dps team is trying to burn, especially considering Pld's offensive utility. As you said, Pld's traditionally stun lock targets for the Dps to burn it down. That utility is traded each time they stop to cast.
On the topic of Stun-locks, there is not nearly as much utility as you seem to think there is. This has been a much debated topic for a long time in PvP. It was actually debunked ages ago, but people still seem to think that Pld's have an advantage in stun-locking. They don't. Pld's can Shield Bash up to 3 times on a single target (with a diminished PvP setting of 4 seconds with consecutive reductions in duration per stun) for approximately 9 seconds (depending on latency). After that, the target is immune. Warriors can cast Holgmang on a target to bind them for 6 seconds. The CD on Holmgang is 180 seconds, but it can never be resisted via personal immunity. They can also follow up or precede any Holmgang with a Brutal Swing for an additional 3 seconds. That's a total of 9 seconds. War and Pld Stun duration is the same.
Some people claim that War's fall a little short because Purify can cut off Holmgang early, but Purify can also cut a Pld's first stun early as well, so they suffer the same disadvantage. Some say that Pld's have an advantage because Shield Swipe is on the GCD while War's have to wait 180 seconds to use holmgang again, but that's not true either. Once a Pld's stuns are resisted, they are resisted forever. They can not stun that target again unless they die. Meaning it's an all or nothing stun lock. It either works for the kill, or it is wasted. War's stun lock is the exact same, in that regard.
The only advantage Pld stuns have over War's is in their freedom of use, but even that comes at a cost and is conditional. IF a target has it's resistance to stuns reset by dying and re-spawning, and IF the Pld knows the target has been reset, the Pld can, potentially, reapply stuns faster than War's. That said, doing this would require the targets to die faster in order to get them to refresh their resistances. Targets typically do not die faster when they are facing a Pld, because Pld's cannot contribute to dps while stunlocking a target. War's can continue to Dps while a target is Holmganged. Pld's use Shield Bash for a pitiful potency of 110 and can do nothing else. It's up to the Dps to kill the target while it is stunned. So, as much as Pld's might have a very slight advantage in ease of use when it comes to stunning, that utility is traded for Dps, which War's excel at.
TL;DR: Neither Pld's nor War's have greater or weaker utility than the other. They just have different utility. When they are both used effectively, neither is at a tremendous disadvantage.
Ps. Riot Blade does replenish some Mp, but not enough to secure infinite casts. Clemency is a 3rd of a Pld's mp bar, regardless of stats. The reason they can only cast it three times (four with stretch mp) is because it takes 3 to 4 riot blades to make up the cost of ONE cast of clemency. Even if they cut Goring Blade out of their Riot Blade combo, that's 20 seconds or downtime. It's not cost effective to be a reliable support for healers, and is only meant to be used in "oh shit" moments. Hence why most Pld's save their clemency casts for targets who are either about to die, or exclusively for the healer.