Rest in peace War dps

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Originally Posted by Delorean

We all have a responsibility. But as a DPS, you are more responsible for performance than any other role in the game. Yet, it is a role mainly dominated by slackers.

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this. thank you sir/madam, as someone who started this game a few months ago as a tank, and you know, (surprise surprise) actually read up on how to play my role/do instances, its quite ridiculous when i see DPS who have been playing longer than me that don't even know fights. yes, my buddy who is healer can keep me alive for 30 minutes while the DPS scrambles around doing literally nothing, we know how to play our classes, but this isn't reasonable. slack DPS has it way too easy in this game, my friend and i can't do fractal/neverreap at *just over* i145 because we're healer and tank, but some idiot DPS who barely squeaked into i145 can run it, get loot, get ilvl req for next dungeons/raids, get better gear, and they still dont have 50 roulette unlocked..... just a bit silly if you ask me. even if the whole "max dps" meta has changed, DPS is still core to the game, and i'm not sure where people get off assuming that its healer/tanks responsibility to do same amount of damage as a DPS, when we're too busy surviving three extra mechanics because the DPS isn't taking down the boss efficiently. best tank in game cant survive three zillion adds, so do your job, and i'll do mine, AND i'll dps to the best ability that mechanics allow.

TO BE FAIR TO DPS:

A Guide to tanking: Tank Swap Mechanics, Pop your CDs, Typically easy to dodge because YOU are the target. First Priority of the Healer. If Off tank: Pick up adds and just DPS with minimal mechanics other than tank swaps.

A Guide to healing: Keep tank alive and Mitigate unavoidable damage when possible. Do simple interaction mechanics. DPS when you can.

A Guide to DPSing: Hit Max Numbers that your class possibly can, while contributing to mechanics that could take the coordination of 3 other DPS, while keeping up with DPS gates like Greased Lightning, Enochian, and Blood of the Dragon, while also avoiding AOEs. Know that there is no in game information telling if you have "failed" your role because unlike Healers or Tanks, you can't see if you're being effective. (Ergo Tanks aren't dead and have aggro.)

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Originally Posted by Lemuel81

Your statement tells me that you are new to modern mmos. in mmos ALL jobs should try to put out as much dps as they can yes.that means you healers as well.

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Depends on the MMO, what healer gameplay entails and whether the healer has mechanics that support their main role via DPSing.

In a game where the tank and the raid constantly take damage, you're not going to have the time to focus on DPS. You might get off one or two DoTs and then back to healing you go because otherwise the boss will crush your tank and wipe your raid.

Mind you, this can work if you build a healer around dealing damage by creating bonuses to healing via dealing damage. Merc-specced bounty hunters in SWTOR had an attack that gave them a buff that reduced the cast time of their heals, so the merc was encouraged to try to get in some damage to get stacks for insta-cast heals. WoW's holy paladin for a time had a buff to...I think it was spellcasting speed or heal potency derived from them casting judgement on the mob. If you want to implement DPS as part of healer gameplay, that's really the best avenue for it.

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Originally Posted by MinhSa

I'd argue warrior's top competitive PvP utility was burst damage itself. Aside from thrill of war, warrior doesn't bring much utility to the table; not much a dark knight or pld couldn't already do, or do better.

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This is exactly right, which is exactly why it was a problem.

War's primary utility was in it's extremely high burst dmg (their ability to double or triple Fell Cleave an opponent into oblivion, in particular), but that utility was not just in their dmg, it was in their self-healing. That MASSIVE burst utility also doubled as suitability for War's. They could, essentially, operate independently of direct heals while in combat, which meant that the healer had people to divide their attention. In 4v4 matches, in particular, that would be a huge problem, because one team's healer would be healing 3 people, while the other only needed to heal 2. One team would also be operating with what was a 3 man dps team (with one of those Dps being very durable), while the other only had 2. In this regard, Pld's and Drks most certainly did not do the same thing, let alone do it better. Neither Pld, nor Drk, could compete with the burst potential, self-healing, or survivability of a War's. Their independent PvP abilities provided different utilities, sure, but the Cd timers are too long to be considered even half as useful, and some of those utilities are redundant. Not to mention the scaling degree of using those utilities effectively is not uniform across the three tanks.

The major difference is the simplicity of the tank's use. Each one plays very differently in PvP, and they all have their own utility in which they can contribute to the team. The real problem is that War's utility was, by far, the easiest to realize. In PvP, both Pld and Drk are substantially harder to use at maximum efficiency than War's. War's fulfill their utility in PvP simply by attacking. As long as they are using their burst rotation alongside their self-healing abilities, they are maximizing their team utility. That burst rotation is also fairly simple and requires almost no resource management, unlike Drk's who have to constantly keep a careful eye on their Mp bar.

By comparison, Drk's have a much more complicated burst rotation, which involves the use of all of their PvP skills. Using it actually limits their party utility, because you are limiting the use of Carnal Chill and Tar Pit to dmg instead of effect. Each time they attack, Drk's had to make a judgement call on how much Mp, Tp, and PvP actions they were willing to waste. Didn't kill the target? Too bad. You just wasted your burst and have to wait for those CD's to come around again.

Pld's were even worse off than that, because they hardly even get a burst rotation. To maximize their utility they have to keep a careful eye on party defense, hp bars, as well as the front line where they attempted to snare stray targets with pacification and stuns. They basically have to double as support for both the healers and the dps, and that divides their attention. If they focus on Dps too much, they could be neglecting team defense. If they focus defense too much, the risk letting potential kills get away from their dps. Meanwhile, War's just kept on Fell Cleaving their way through the front line, building up their next burst rotation at a much quicker rate than the other two.

There was nothing really balanced about this, and it would have been a glaring problem when Feast came out.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

The fact of the matter is that indeed I'm not at all happy with the change. However, I will change and adapt to the situation. The meta has changed, and now more than ever good DPS are gonna be even more important to a raid group than ever before. DPS who are willing to push the boundaries of play will be needed, before that was needed of tanks.

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So basically, what the DPS should have done since the start - Performing well and to improve yourself to get even better, without being a deadweight to the others?

Warrior DPS: This is good...isn't it?


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Here's to you, Fell Cleave and Berserk
Rest forever here in our hearts
The last and final moment is yours...

You guys realize that in terms of the DPS nerf, DRK and PLD got hit harder right? Tanking out of stance took a colossal sucker punch to the groin for any non-war tank because additonal enmity combo usage far beyond what was previously required is needed to pull it off. This is a loss for DRK and PLD while WAR could care less because BB is its top DPS. This shit should actually read "rest in peace pld/drk dps".

/thread.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

You guys realize that in terms of the DPS nerf, DRK and PLD got hit harder right? Tanking out of stance took a colossal sucker punch to the groin for any non-war tank because additonal enmity combo usage far beyond what was previously required is needed to pull it off. This is a loss for DRK and PLD while WAR could care less because BB is its top DPS. This shit should actually read "rest in peace pld/drk dps".

/thread.

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pat pat, it'll be okay?

Yes raid dps viability went out the window. I think we are all aware of that by now.

/shrug, grin and bear it until either SE decides to change it or people change roles. It's really that simple at this point. You got alot of anger in your fingers this morning apparently O.o;

It boggles the mind that they buffed the enmity from tank stances but left the wimpy, garbage, embarrassing, sad, pitiful, disgusting, and terrible rage of halone untouched, with its awful 260 potency and its hilarious enmity modifier from back when it was your only combo.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

pat pat, it'll be okay?

Yes raid dps viability went out the window. I think we are all aware of that by now.

/shrug, grin and bear it until either SE decides to change it or people change roles. It's really that simple at this point. You got alot of anger in your fingers this morning

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Just pointing out in this thread about WARs dps getting nerfed that WARs actually lost the least DPS in practice, overall, yet are complaining the loudest about the changes, going so far as to make threads in monument to their deepz, like we didn't all get shot with the same nerf gun.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Just pointing out in this thread about WARs dps getting nerfed that WARs actually lost the least DPS in practice, overall, yet are complaining the loudest about the changes, going so far as to make threads in monument to their deepz, like we didn't all get shot with the same nerf gun.

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I agree, and the tanks that realize that are generally the ones in this thread trying to mediate between those that are screaming "we were right, hahaha" and "my deepz is bad now /cry". All tanks took a hard hit, and some of the dynamics of the role, and not jobs, have been changed significantly. I know I will be unlikely to tank this raid cycle, on the flip side i have a good friend that is leveling his tanks with abandon because he's excited and thrilled with the changes. What goes around comes around. Pretty soon they'll buff or nerf something else and another role will falter, just like ranged DPS did in 2.0.

It is what it is, we all change and adapt to the choppy ocean that is MMORPG's.

Yeah just going to have to adapt even if the changes read out as 1 step forward and 2 leaps backward.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Just pointing out in this thread about WARs dps getting nerfed that WARs actually lost the least DPS in practice, overall, yet are complaining the loudest about the changes, going so far as to make threads in monument to their deepz, like we didn't all get shot with the same nerf gun.

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because it also effects our cooldowns and self healing which is a pretty big deal? And what do you mean WARS lost the "least DPS in practice"? Isn't a 20% nerf a 20% nerf even if warrior still does more OT damage this patch most likely? Please explain.

I'm not salty about the change since I mained warrior as my first job to 50 and 60 because it was a tank first (i actually dropped warrior because of the meta and coming back to it. I just went to an actual dps at that point), but its still pretty reasonable to complain at least this early on about less potent cooldowns. I still enjoy stance dancing don't get me wrong though. Dpsing as a tank is really fun and breaks the boredom of mobs who do 0 damage. But yes tanks crying about dps just for dps sake and only worrying about the damage they do rather than the whole package are silly.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

Please explain.

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This thread wasn't about their self heals. It was about their DPS.

The explanation is this: Because out of tank stance damage is so much lower now, tanks can't keep aggro off DPS (or a BBing WAR) without using their hate combo. This doesn't affect WAR at all b/c their highest DPS is also their highest enmity. For PLD and DRK our lowest DPS is our highest enmity. So we're looking at a DPS loss relative to WAR when we want to stance dance, which WAR doesn't need to worry about.

Not complaining, just pointing out that this thread is a little stupid. DRK and PLD have to use their hate combo now way more than is efficient to stance dance; with WAR, nothing changed in that area.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

logic

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All TC said was they don't feel as strong anymore which is somewhat ambiguous. Some people mentioned cooldowns as well so I wouldn't say topic was all dps focused (even if thats where majority of the complaints are coming from). But TC is right. Warrior overall definitely doesn't feel as powerful ignoring the obvious nerf to all tanks. Its far more noticeable on warrior imo because our damage WAS part of our mitigation.

And I understand. You are indeed correct. Warriors can stay out of DPS stance longer which is more dps in the long run. But you make it seem like they still can infinitely stay in dps stance like the old days. I don't think thats the case against a good dps, but I haven't had a proper environment to test this myself so I could be terribly wrong.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

This thread wasn't about their self heals. It was about their DPS.

The explanation is this: Because out of tank stance damage is so much lower now, tanks can't keep aggro off DPS (or a BBing WAR) without using their hate combo. This doesn't affect WAR at all b/c their highest DPS is also their highest enmity. For PLD and DRK our lowest DPS is our highest enmity. So we're looking at a DPS loss relative to WAR when we want to stance dance, which WAR doesn't need to worry about.

Not complaining, just pointing out that this thread is a little stupid. DRK and PLD have to use their hate combo now way more than is efficient to stance dance; with WAR, nothing changed in that area.

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Except they still need to incorporate Storm's Eye and, if they're MT, Storm's Path, right? I would think that having to manage all three combos would still be difficult especially with a heavier emphasis on Butcher's Block.

i'd be fine with being all vit right side if my aggro and self heals weren't utterly destroyed. for a self heal based tank i don't do alot of self healing anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Except they still need to incorporate Storm's Eye and, if they're MT, Storm's Path, right? I would think that having to manage all three combos would still be difficult especially with a heavier emphasis on Butcher's Block.

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ideally both should be up as eye boosts the off tank and the main tanks damage and aggro, and path makes it easier to heal us.

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Originally Posted by Omni-Vocational_Ryan

ideally both should be up as eye boosts the off tank and the main tanks damage and aggro, and path makes it easier to heal us.

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I believe he's talking in 4-man content where the only tank is the main tank, and he's discussing how needing to use the aggro combo is more annoying for PLD and DRK than WAR because WAR's aggro combo is its highest potency combo. What I was asking was wouldn't you get to the point you need to sacrifice the Path/Eye combo, if indeed you need to Butcher's Block more just to keep aggro?

EDIT: Keep in mind these are genuine questions from a DPS main who just happens to play tank when I'm bored enough to try it.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

People are still trying to get WAR nerf because how strong we are as off tanks. I'm a WAR for life and I love being a tank regardless of the changes. But this sounds mean, kind of hard to enjoy a game when people are always complaining about nothing. Some things needed to be fixed on certain classes but the whole balancing out jobs to accommodate bad plays or make all jobs viable equally is getting old. I could understand if you had to make new toons or accounts to enjoy the game but you don't....just stubborn players crying to get their way.

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If society does not cater to the slowest evolvers, civilization crumbles. This is why we have instructions on shampoo bottles.

You don't know NOTHING about Warrior, kid. Warrior is still self-sufficient lol, i can tank the final a6 boss in deliverance at 5th stack lol.

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Originally Posted by mark-m-n

You don't know NOTHING about Warrior, kid. Warrior is still self-sufficient lol, i can tank the final a6 boss in deliverance at 5th stack lol.

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I find that hard to believe. got any proof?

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Originally Posted by mark-m-n

You don't know NOTHING about Warrior, kid.

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Alright, I hate to be the person that goes off about grammar but I seriously see this sooooo much and it is starting to get a little under my skin since I not only see it way too much on forums but am also starting to hear it in spoken conversations amongst the "younger generations".

"Don't know nothing" is a double negative and means the exact opposite of what people that use it are trying to say. What you want to say is "You don't know anything".

Double negatives cancel each other out, so saying " You don't know nothing" means the same as "You do know something".

It has to do with basic logic. If someone is not familiar with or does not know "nothing", which is the absence of "something", then correlatively they must be familiar with or know "something" because if they didn't then they would be familiar with or know "nothing".

This also goes for the commonly used " never did nothing" which actually means "have done something".

Anyways, just had to get that off my chest, so at this point ...
/rant

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

"Don't know nothing" is a double negative and means the exact opposite of what people that use it are trying to say. What you want to say is "You don't know anything".

Double negatives cancel each other out, so saying " You don't know nothing" means the same as "You do know something".

It has to do with basic logic. If someone is not familiar with or does not know "nothing", which is the absence of "something", then correlatively they must be familiar with or know "something" because if they didn't then they would be familiar with or know "nothing".

This also goes for the commonly used " never did nothing" which actually means "have done something".


/rant

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dawg, why you frontin' like dat? he ain't nevah done nuthin ta nobody.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

dawg, y u frontin' like dat? he ain't nev dun nutin 2 nobody.

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Fixed it for you. Also that hurt to type.

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Originally Posted by Bashum

he ain't nevah done nuthin ta nobody.

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Aaaahhhhh!!!!! Double double negatives!
... Does not compute ... Logic failing ...
... -1x-1x-1x-1 = 1 .... =/= -1 ... *bzzzzt*
... *Head explodes*

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Except they still need to incorporate Storm's Eye and, if they're MT, Storm's Path, right? I would think that having to manage all three combos would still be difficult especially with a heavier emphasis on Butcher's Block.

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Storm's Eye is path of Warrior's DPS rotation, using it increases Warrior's damage, not lower it. Storm's Path is situational and while an amazing debuff you rarely want it up full time. Warrior's aggro generation being built into its highest damage combo is simply absurd compared to DRK and PLD and balancing these classes will forever be a nightmare so long as Warrior can maintain aggro and DPS with no sacrifices, whereas PLD and DRK need to lower their DPS to hold aggro. This is specially true after 3.2 made holding aggro outside of tank stance harder than ever for PLD and DRK thanks to the brilliant idea of compensating for the DPS loss not by altering ability modifiers, but by increasing tank stance modifiers further.

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Originally Posted by RecklessLion

Meh it had to happen in a way. You could point out plenty of bad warriors vs others. People never used any of theach tank heals or mitigation which is why healers hated WAR the most. Though I kind of wish they remained the same and kept the dps the tank forum would of still went crazy. People are still trying to get WAR nerf because how strong we are as off tanks. I'm a WAR for life and I love being a tank regardless of the changes. But this sounds mean kind of hard to enjoy a game when people are always complaining about nothing. Some things needed to be fixed on certain classes but the whole balancing out jobs to accommodate bad plays or make all jobs viable equally is getting old. I could understand if you had to make new toons or accounts to enjoy the game but you don't....just stubborn players crying to get their way.

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"Making all jobs equally viable is getting old" essentially means "I don't care about game balance". Thought I'd let you know.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Warrior's aggro generation being built into its highest damage combo is simply absurd compared to DRK and PLD and balancing these classes will forever be a nightmare so long as Warrior can maintain aggro and DPS with no sacrifices, whereas PLD and DRK need to lower their DPS to hold aggro.

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Yeah, this is incredibly shitty. WARs design enables a style of play that every tank should be entitled to while DRK/PLD are given this arbitrary hurdle to jump that is independent of proper play or skill. You can say what you want about balancing tank mitigation or DPS or utility, but we should all be able to stance-dance either without penalty, or with the same penalty. WAR having this privilege is like giving a DRG the ability to live without dodging AoEs while telling NIN/MNK "tough shit, git gud and learn to dodge". In fact, now that I think of it, its the same flavor of shit as DRG's arbitrarily lower magic defense back in the day. Not implemented for any reason, just... uh... yeah, you just die more easily no matter what you do. DRK/PLD, you just have to gimp your DPS to hold aggro, sorry. Its a fundamental imbalance that arbitrarily punishes DRK/PLD for maximizing performance while handing the ability to do so to WAR on a platinum platter.

All tanks should have equal potential and ability to maximize their performance with equivalent hurdles to overcome or none at all. I'd call this an inalienable tank right. And it wouldn't require any nerf or buff to either of the three tanks, just a few potency swaps between their combos and bam, solved. This isn't me hating on WARs, its just saying we should have the same access to stance dancing that you do without having to downgrade to a suboptimal rotation. Its like if we told you you had to use SP to hold hate and couldn't BB.

Fix it SE.

I feel for you guys. Nothing I hate more than to feel worse when playing my DRK and thinking of how I wouldn't have these problems on my WAR.

While it's quite obvious that Royal Authority should gain Tier 3 combo aggro generation and RoH be kept the same for the sake of low level and the lower potency optional debuff(or make Royal Authority combo off Rage of Halone instead). Is there any way to change it for DRK without just sticking more potency? Ultimately there would still be the trade off Enmity or Mana(which usually means more DPS). Any ideas or is the WAR formula the only worthwhile venture?

Maybe we just sack Spinning Slash and make all combos derive off of Syphon Strike? Make Syphon Strike generate enmity? Could dump Spinning Slash modifier on Power Slash so it truly is the hardest hitting aggro wise move.

Inb4 people want to remove stack gains from Skull Sunder and Butcher's Block so WARs feel what DRKs feel.

I don't feel Royal Authority should have extra aggro generation, since, ideally, I'd like for Paladin to be able to, at some point, become a viable off tank (I want the same for DRK) and stealing aggro constantly with your monstrous 350 potency aggro boosted combo doesn't seem very fun. PLD probably needs Halone to have its potency boosted to 290-300 and its aggro modifier increased so you use it less often and its less of a DPS loss. I'm not sure what I'd do with Power Slash, though, since while its a relatively small DPS loss on the combo its biggest issue is that using it slows down your MP regeneration, which is a long term DPS loss due to less Dark Arts.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

In fact, now that I think of it, its the same flavor of shit as DRG's arbitrarily lower magic defense back in the day. Not implemented for any reason, just... uh... yeah, you just die more easily no matter what you do.

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I remember this. Dying to magical dmg as a Drg went something along the lines of:

Drg: "Why am I the only one who died??"
Healer: "Cuz' you're a Drg."
Drg: "... whut? -_-' "

The current imbalance between the three tanks is the same. It is most certainly a problem. The bottom line is that no one should feel like their being punished for simply playing their preferred job, but that's exactly what happens whenever a Tank chooses to go as anything other than War. SE seems to have missed that memo, because they implemented a series of Tank adjustments that failed, yet again, to address any of the real issues that are currently plaguing the tanking community.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

I don't feel Royal Authority should have extra aggro generation, since, ideally, I'd like for Paladin to be able to, at some point, become a viable off tank (I want the same for DRK) and stealing aggro constantly with your monstrous 350 potency aggro boosted combo doesn't seem very fun. PLD probably needs Halone to have its potency boosted to 290-300 and its aggro modifier increased so you use it less often and its less of a DPS loss. I'm not sure what I'd do with Power Slash, though, since while its a relatively small DPS loss on the combo its biggest issue is that using it slows down your MP regeneration, which is a long term DPS loss due to less Dark Arts.

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How about RA being part of 2 combos? Using it after RoH will grant enmity, using after Riot would have increased potency. SE already did this with other jobs, like NIN's ninjitsu. RA could then be used by both MT for aggro and OT for loldmg.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Yeah, this is incredibly shitty. WARs design enables a style of play that every tank should be entitled to while DRK/PLD are given this arbitrary hurdle to jump that is independent of proper play or skill. You can say what you want about balancing tank mitigation or DPS or utility, but we should all be able to stance-dance either without penalty, or with the same penalty. WAR having this privilege is like giving a DRG the ability to live without dodging AoEs while telling NIN/MNK "tough shit, git gud and learn to dodge". In fact, now that I think of it, its the same flavor of shit as DRG's arbitrarily lower magic defense back in the day. Not implemented for any reason, just... uh... yeah, you just die more easily no matter what you do. DRK/PLD, you just have to gimp your DPS to hold aggro, sorry. Its a fundamental imbalance that arbitrarily punishes DRK/PLD for maximizing performance while handing the ability to do so to WAR on a platinum platter.

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Well, let's take a couple of things into account. First that as much as I would want them to, the devs making major mechanic and design changes to jobs mid-expansion is unlikely. Hell, the WAR revamp was the product of extreme circumstances as it was, and I'm sure someone on the dev team said "never again".

Second, the damage is sort of done. Knowing the devs, they'll probably refrain from changing WAR because a) they don't want to make people mad (funny they decided to ignore this when they changed BRD), b) because it was a "clever" idea to make their design "unique" despite coming from an oversight that other dev teams would have squashed within the first couple of weeks of being discovered, and c) some people have grown used to it to the point they feel WAR should play that way.

The best the devs can do would be to retool the three tanks going into the next expansion and make things even. This is provided they stop with the "DPS = utility" bullshit and their other shenanigans. Ideally, leave swaps as part of WAR gameplay but tune things so that DPS output and utility is equal to that of PLD and DRK.

I still feel like WAR does at least have some built-in penalties in its stances (namely Defiance) that the others wouldn't if they were to get the same instant swapping, but I'm not sure it'd be unfair even then, especially if Grit continues to cost mana and Rage of Halone enmity remains poor. Defiance still has its Unchained, giving by leagues the best burst enmity (without zero'ing one's mana, at least), and Deliverance still delivers instant benefits. I'd gladly trade my combo for it as well, as long as we aren't locked into the stance (just unable to recast it or the opposite Oath for 10s, so that we can still drop oath, finish the combo, do another combo, and then swap again, etc).

Though giving them all 10s CD ability-based swaps isn't the solution I'd look forward to, what we've been given did next to nothing to deal with the clunkiness of the non-WARs. Have healing received buffs affect all heals, not just spells, drop Equilibrium to 900 potency to compensate, and call it a day. If that still doesn't do it, change the %parry on Defiance stacks to %healing received; now they waste as few abilities against magic as a DRK does.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

You can say what you want about balancing tank mitigation or DPS or utility, but we should all be able to stance-dance either without penalty, or with the same penalty. WAR having this privilege is like giving a DRG the ability to live without dodging AoEs while telling NIN/MNK "tough shit, git gud and learn to dodge".


Fix it SE.

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DRK and PLD have a penalty for stance dancing because their stances activate immediately while WAR's does not.

First I'll explain how the stances work (for those who don't know)

DRK and PLD get a 20% incoming damage reduction while WAR gets 25% more hp. Lets say that all three tanks have 100 base HP and then turn on their tank stances.

PLD 100 HP
WAR 125 HP
DRK 100 HP

And now a mob throws 5 rocks at them, doing 25 damage each.

Since PLD and DRK get damage reduced, the rocks only do 20 damage to them. They will be killed in exactly 5 hits. (20 x 5 = 100)

WAR takes the full 25 Damage, also dying in 5 hits. (25 x 5 = 125)

In this case, the stances are equal.

Now lets say all three tanks were fighting as off tanks but have decided to provoke and tank swap.

PLD and DRK are at their 100 HP base and ready to to go already. WAR on the other hand is stuck at 100 until it gets a heal since switching to tank stance increases the health pool without filling it.

If the same mob decides to hurl 25 damage rocks at them, PLD and DRK can take 5 hits before dying while WAR would be killed by the 4th rock. (25 x 4= 100)

In short, making sheild oath and Grit as convenient as Defiance would turn it into an extra 20% damage reduction ability with unlimited uptime and short cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

stuff

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Yes, these are all things that I know.

Read my post again; .. When i was referring to ease of stance dancing i was talking about the ability to continue to use your optimal rotation regardless of stance, (which WAR can, the other two can't), not whether the stances are oGCD or not.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Yes, these are all things that I know.

Read my post again; .. When i was referring to ease of stance dancing i was talking about the ability to continue to use your optimal rotation regardless of stance, (which WAR can, the other two can't), not whether the stances are oGCD or not.

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Oh that's different, my mistake.

I'm not sure how to fix that one.

Sorry, I'm a few days into the patch and I still feel like Warrior is doing fine. The insane dps is gone - but a 4500k fell cleave instead of a 7k fell cleave is still pretty darned good. And the equilibrium self heals are no longer insane but they're still good. My personal opinion is this brought warrior into balance where a lot of people are seeing it as nerfed.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Sorry, I'm a few days into the patch and I still feel like Warrior is doing fine. The insane dps is gone - but a 4500k fell cleave instead of a 7k fell cleave is still pretty darned good. And the equilibrium self heals are no longer insane but they're still good. My personal opinion is this brought warrior into balance where a lot of people are seeing it as nerfed.

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All this patch ultimately did is cement WARs position as the top tank even further, sure they got the nerf bat but so did every other tank and the impact this has had on them is far greater than on Warrior. As a WAR nothing has really changed for me, I simply do 800-950 DPS instead of 1100-1200. I can still open with Unchained and Berserk, and never loose enmity to DPS for the entire fight in Deliverance.

PLD ultimately have the same issues they always had, you buffed Gorian and Royal Authority? YAY but guess what! You can't use it for crap because your enmity now sucks oh and your DPS sucks even MORE now because of the global tank nerf so that buff is pretty much irrelevant.

SE, GG no re.

DRK? God they have it even worse, Every Syphon Strike they can't do is a long term DPS loos due to the lack of MP return not to mention how impractical it might be to use Blood Weapon since turning Grit off and then on right back has a sizable MP cost. So I heard people where complaining about PLD sucking and DRK being outright superior MT choice, so why don't be screw them both up and make it all equal!?

SE, GG no re.

This post might sound like its full of salt but it's just that I am not a big fan of nerfs and nobody really ever benefits from it (except people who hate because reasons), I would have rather seen PLD buffed rather than everyone nerfed. But whatever, as a WAR very little has ultimately changed. It's just sad when people focus so much on the WAR hate that they forget that the nerf hammer is hitting them even harder, I might give it a shot to see how bad it is (still getting used to some changes as WAR) but I don't think ill be playing DRK much anymore (my second favorite tank class). I'm not very keen in the idea of staying in tank stance 24/7 and pushing my 1-2-3 combo 70% of the time.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

I'm not sure what I'd do with Power Slash, though, since while its a relatively small DPS loss on the combo its biggest issue is that using it slows down your MP regeneration, which is a long term DPS loss due to less Dark Arts.

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Change the AP distribution to 70/20 (VIT/STR), boost the base enmity of every tanks enmity combo and increase pressure on tanks in raids via mechanics or damage intake in order to force them more often into tank stance. You nerf a tanks damage via mechanics rather than a straight out DPS nerf. But people wanted a WAR nerf, because they where clearing old content solo, so badly they got it I guess, hope all the other tanks enjoy it =/

I apologize for the rant xD

So why do you need to stay in tank stance longer as drk and do the 1-2-3 combo over and over?
I main the class and have not had to do this at all in any duty so far. In fact the increase in vit has allowed me to stay out of tanks stance longer rotating cooldowns. DRK imo is by far the easiest tank to hold aggro with so long as you can maintain a basic supply of MP. the class seems exactly the same to me outside of a bit more tp up time and the proportional dps cut across the board. But mechanically ive been playing it exactly the same with no issue.