Mentoring: perhaps we're better off without it

Ice Mage will mentor a newbie THM to become another Ice Mage.

Hmmm I see an issue. If mentors are going in places to go "help" people and filling up these spots, it could make it very hard to queue in progress for a duty. Possibly.

Then there's this:
Does this go into effect after someone leaves?
Will this work when someone leaves before the start of the duty(Rage quitting)?
Do mentors get loot?

People repeated this often "You need to have all 3 roles so you can be any role when you get in the duty with newbies"

So what we're changing roles in duty now?

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Originally Posted by Toguro

People repeated this often "You need to have all 3 roles so you can be any role when you get in the duty with newbies"

So what we're changing roles in duty now?

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It would be more accurate to say you need all three roles so you can help anyone. Not just in duties, but anywhere (the 3.2 site shows a Mentor helping out with a FATE, for example). If someone runs up to me because I have the Mentor status, and they want my help because I'm a Mentor, only for me to turn around and go "Sorry, I've not leveled a healer", then that is pretty bad. We'd end up with the same situation we've had in Duty Finder for years; 90% DPS.

As far as instances and the Mentor Roulette go, you're there to help and offer basic advice. If I'm a Mentor who is solely a DPS, then I can help out one DPS in the party, but there is no check that I can give advice for tanks or healers. Likewise, if I'm solely a healer, I can't help anyone. I'm just a healer and I'm the only healer in the instance. We can assume that everyone who'd be a Mentor would have some understanding of the other roles, but do we really want to? It's much safer to just outright have a check that ensures every Mentor has played the three roles. I'd rather look at a Mentor and know, 100%, that they've got first hand experience with all the roles. That they can help out in any situation, rather than being specific to a single role.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

1000 instances ran doesn't mean you exactly know what to do in every instance, I have upwards to 2000 and if you asked me how to do The Dragon's Neck you're sol because I one and done that fight.

Also commendations aren't a good thing to measure either as tanks and healers are basically guaranteed them. Plus not to mention the times you get stuck with a group all leveling together and they commend you because they can't give themselves one.

These are examples that show flaws that further prove why the system is flawed from the start.

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If you're even halfway competent, by the time you get both a tank and healer to 60, you should already have the commendations.

and here it starts, you have resumed in your post exactly my thoughts and why I am so adamant in saying that the Mentorship idea is good BUT the community is NOT prepared for that as Mentoring appeals to some qualities, abilities, capacities that very few have.

A mentor leads by example and the examples we have every day on these boards (even if it is small portion of online people) is still giving an idea of why this system is NOT meant for this game as it is meant to be. Maybe in JP is different for cultural reasons but in the western part..it just a way to boost someone's ego

I am sorry you had this experience..so sorry

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Originally Posted by Pells

If you're even halfway competent, by the time you get both a tank and healer to 60, you should already have the commendations.

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Did...? Did you not read? I said examples of why commendations don't equate to skill. You can join a DF in progress as a DPS first time running a dungeon, clear the final boss and only the final boss and get commendations. I've had instances where I joined in progress as a tank and the group was already in the middle of the final boss because they felt they could beat it and got a commendation for watching 2 DPS and a Healer win the fight. People throw commendations around all the time because they hold no true merit outside of glamour items and a mount.

Even just a item-level appropriate dummy-style SSS could go a long way in checking mentor quality for DPS. Tanks and healers are a lot harder to be sure of.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Why do people keep thinking Mentors are meant to somehow fix Lv60 problems? That is entirely what Stone, Sky, Sea is for.

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I agree with this, however I think that if that actually is the case then Stone, Sky, Sea isn't well implemented.

The success of this system wholly depends on what sort of people choose to be mentors, I sincerely hope its people who actually excel at the game....and encourage people to be good as well.

Also I'm throwing pre-emptive shade at all healing mentors who tell newbie healers not to learn how to stance dance.

>.>

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Did...? Did you not read? I said examples of why commendations don't equate to skill. --

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I think commendations are still a far better metric for mentors than dungeon count. They can't be obtained in a full premade, they can't be farmed unsynched, and the rate you get them is proportional to how you behave and whether you have at least average performance. You can also get comms in guild hests, content which is very relevant to a sproutling player, yet guildhests don't affect the dungeon count at all. Imo the requiment should have been 1000 comms and 300 dungeons and not vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

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Except comms can be farmed easily by tanking/healing in those guildhests. Tried and tested. You can get tons for pretty much nothing.

*sigh*

- You can already mentor players right now if you want. Many people already do even without the title, and word of mouth among a community is stronger than you think
- Mentoring is neither meant to hold a new player's hand all the way to 50/60, nor leave them to fend for themselves at the 40 hour mark. A strong rapport with a student can forge a new friendship, which would naturally continue the communication between the two.
- In the case of bad Mentors/bad advice, there are plenty of other knowledgeable players and information readily available everywhere. Trust but verify. At the worst, seek a new mentor.

How does any of this get missed?

In regards to SSS and for future encounters, this could also show us the accuracy needed if we miss or not. Might be helpful for theory crafting-min/max our gear for a new fight without going into said fight.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

Might be helpful for theory crafting-min/max our gear for a new fight without going into said fight.

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Straight from Yoshida himself, that is EXACTLY what S3 is about. That and building a comfort zone with your rotations before having to deal with instance mechanics like movement, phase changes, and other variables. Build a strong enough foundation, and you'll have less to worry about in different environments.

Aha. . . I get the name now. :)

Without mentor system requirements we already had a lot of FATE botters... now it will explode!
Same situation with crafter and gatherer...

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Except comms can be farmed easily by tanking/healing in those guildhests. Tried and tested. You can get tons for pretty much nothing.

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It's still more effort than running unsynched Ifrit to gain dungeon count, if we're looking at the easiest methods. Those runs take 17 seconds and don't require you to follow tactics or tank/heal. A higher commendation requirement would ensure that mentors have played with random players beyond the leveling process of 3 classes.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/dc9...9f4f549_86.png

well now we know that the roulette will have rewards. That being said if a person isn't competent enough to pass a heal/tank or DPS trial, how are the new players sure that they won't botch a low level dungeon either?

^This would be part of the 1000 instances requirement. As long as the leveling dungeons have been around, as much as we've run them to this day, can ANY mentor worth their title possibly say they wouldn't be capable in said content?

We're cherry picking now.
"But what if they've never tanked it?" That's why having a tank leveled is a requirement. You'd have plenty of time and opportunity to learn.
"How can new players be sure the mentor is capable?" In reverse, what crucial factor could that new person possibly know that the mentor might somehow not? There's a huge degree of trust and good faith inferred in this system. Plus we're all human. Mistakes will be made on both sides, but I recall that's how many of us learned before.

We can play all the "what if" scenarios all day, but I say again, the system - while not without flaws - has a solid foundation.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Stuff

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You might as well give up, I've been saying the same thing repeatedly, but they don't actually care if it helps new players or not. They are just pissed off that they can't be part of the system to reap the rewards without having to put a little more effort in.

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Originally Posted by Dgsoil

You might as well give up, I've been saying the same thing repeatedly, but they don't actually care if it helps new players or not. They are just pissed off that they can't be part of the system to reap the rewards without having to put a little more effort in.

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I'm concerned that it isn't enough effort to become a mentor. Not the other way around.

Well, if it helps, the newbies will only be exposed to bad influence rays for only their first 40 hours of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, if it helps, the newbies will only be exposed to bad influence rays for only their first 40 hours of gameplay.

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Incorrect. Mentor roulette pairs you with first timers in most, if not all, content.

This system was a joke in 11, and it will be a joke now. Serves no purpose other then for SE to say "At least we did something about the situation of skilless garbage players playing the game" people already get super defensive when you mention to someone "Hey just as a suggestion you should try *insert better option* over *insert bad option* to help push your rotation better." I know many of us out there give advice like jerks, but to those of us that realize context is everything. You can be sweet as ever, and still gt that person to say "Screw you elitest pig! It's my sub and I'll play how I want!" Because this game is meant for EVERYBODY, even the degenerates, this game makes it impossible to civilize much less educate the idiots out there.... but good kinda try.... I guess?

Think on this. Want to bet how much grief a 'mentor' can hand out to others before the find themself talking to a GM?

What I am getting at is that in a way Mentor is a position of trust, Even though it's not stated I would not be surprised to find out some time later that jerks abusing the Mentor system find themselves excluded permanently from mentoring, along with whatever discipline accompanies their abuse of teh system.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Incorrect. Mentor roulette pairs you with first timers in most, if not all, content.

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Oh, I read it as only with the sprouts... well, that maaaay be for the newbie channel? Hrm... I have the feeling Im not getting something from that either.

This post is a non-sequitur.

Regardless I don't think they should not have mentorship because some people are bad. That is even more reason to do it.

Also, is there a source for the claim that people will be paired wit "mostly first timers?"

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

Also, is there a source for the claim that people will be paired wit "mostly first timers?"

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"called “Duty Roulette: Mentor” that is only available for mentors will be added. This roulette will grant a priority on matching mentors with new players or players who haven’t beaten the specific dungeon or trial yet."
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2016/...mentor-system/

Going to wait and see how this plays out, I can see this system working for JP players but NA/EU yea grab some popcorn people it going to get real soon in the next couple of weeks...