The Mentoring Requirements... *Rant Style*

The requirements are fine. It's supposed to be only for "veteran" players. Only new players do not match the criteria. You aren't supposed to be "veteran" experienced player if you just came to the game.

It may not add much to the discussion, but it did say the mentor roulette is specifically designed so it is easier to join your student in a dungeon. So my guess is you need one of every role, so that the dungeon can be run with the proper party makeup (because if a tank is teaching a tank, no dungeon under level 50 will have room for both of them) so you'll need to take the role that they aren't, and on top of that you'll be able to give them advice in the dungeon. The level requirement is just ensuring that you have had direct access to the core mechanics of each role, you should be able to tell a baby CNJ "Hey don't worry, your mp management becomes easier once you get Shroud of Saints and then later you'll get Assize," WHILE you are DPSing or tanking in the dungeon they need help in. The game is ensuring that you can become flexible enough to accommodate a new person undertaking any role, and not make them wait on you while you form a party so you can both go in and tank or heal. The comms I /think/ are just a guard to make sure you're not a complete jerk (though the system is flawed, admittedly) and the dungeon requirement (while high) is making sure you didn't just power level in fates, and that you could run the content blindfolded so that any questions a newbie may have, you can answer.

The system isn't designed to cater to the mentors. It is designed to cater to the students, and making sure they are getting help from qualified people who know what they are doing. Not a perfect system, but better than just judging everything on raid content or play time.

The very, very basic fundamentals of all roles(DPS, Tanking, Healing) can be learned without leveling those classes. I'm talking specifically with the Mentoring time limit of 40 hours. Mentees can vary as some rush through some don't. When I joined FFXIV it was about Nov. 11, when I was lv23, it was Dec.1. I was taking it slow. My mentoring hours would have been up.

The very basic fundamentals of healing: healing of course, watching MP bars, using Cleric Stance at the right times(All newbies will be Conjurers at the beginning), knowing the effect of Cleric Stance, watching your aggro(something every role needs to know to avoid taking aggro), shielding(Protect, etc), staying within range of the tank and team to heal them, staying out of AoEs, using basic cures and AoE cures, detrimental effect removal, watching the overall status of the team.

Tank fundamentals: Keeping aggro on all enemies, position them away from your team to avoid AoEs and AoE melee attacks bosses tend to have, look at your team's classes,(I have a pugilist, I need to make sure they can get their attacks in so I must have the enemies in a position to attack efficiently), Provoking(Although technically not a "fundamental" because that is learned at lv22, you would already need to know how to tank then but Provoke is a must-know), watching your root source of enmity(TP/MP you need that to keep attacking to keep aggro), checking your team's gear(gotta know what gear they have before you do things to make decisions in the long run), knowing your enmity attacks like Skull Sunder or Savage Blade and how they work(This includes Flash range), cycling through enemies to obtain substantial aggro on ALL enemies in the group so in case a team member does not know the fundamentals of focusing, you will not lose aggro.

DPS Fundamentals: Watching your aggro so you don't take it from the tank IF they are not cycling. Stop attacking that enemy. Attack the tank's enemy, watch TP, attack, priority targets.

Once you tell them the fundamentals of the role, you may teach them the fundamentals of the class and neat tricks and cross-skills(Here's where Impulse Drive comes in, leveling Gladiator to 8 to get flash and help with AoE enmity generation, etc).
Bonus Fundamentals: You can teach them the importance of provoke, AoEing big mobs down, avoid using push attacks for no reason(Push them into tanks or away from healers or into walls to avoid moving them), using cooldowns right, using your attacks/heals right, teaching functions of traits, avoid AoEs, positionals, finishers

Those are things that a "specialist" can teach better than a non-specialist but players who play for a long time can still teach those particular things easily. Only deep job stuff requires a specialist, absolutely. That is useless though because newbies only have 40hrs.

Then there's the next section that Gunspec posted in this thread earlier. The fundamentals of the game world itself outside of fighting/combat. FCs, GCs, chocobos, sidequests unlockables, materia, dye, glamour, the market board, guildleves, guildhests, and all the other stuff the game throws at you before 30 at least minus glamour. You can teach them about the very deep options section(I think its deep, has a lot of stuff in it). Tons of stuff that you can teach outside of fighting.

^ All of these things can be done and taught by players who are at least 50(returning players and/or players who lack Heavensward). They do not, should not need a level 60 class to teach a newbie, newbie things. Your Heavensward knowledge is useless because they will never be 60 in 40hrs. The game's fundamentals were created long before Heavensward. They were created at release. Level 50s at the start of ARR 2.0(Release I mean) should be qualified to mentor as they know the fundamentals. A level 50 tank can teach just as good as a 60 tank because the fundamental skills required to teach and tank are learned at an early stage. The stuff at 60 is add-on stuff.

What SE should do is make another mentoring system for higher level players so they can engage in the next step of mentoring. Learning your class/job. THAT will require "specialists" when you get to the deepest parts of the job. But fundamentals? Basic fundamentals? That is learned through experience in the game world itself. Not leveling a healer. As a lv60 DPS, when you level a healer, you're already gonna know the general concept of healing.

Having the dungeon restriction makes no sense as you can learn the fundamentals of combat in 300 dungeons. I'm sure there are tons of people who are left out of teaching because of the requirements. Left out of teaching early fundamentals about the game itself AND combat fundamentals.

The requirements are ok, in fact there should be more and more strict I think.
1. The commendations weed out some people although I think 300 is so few, should had been more.
2. Having at least one Tank, Healer, DPS is probably the best course to be a mentor because when I had used and tried every of the roles it's when you truely get to understand each points of views and have a better scope of what everyone should be doing. Also would means that you are able to guide anyone regardless of what path he or she choose.
3. If you are so good and perfect at DPS, raiding as you said you were... then you should be close to the 1000 dungeons if you started at 3.1. There had been more than enough time for that. If you dont have 1000 dungeons then I;m sorry and keep practicing. I guess the reason behind all these dungeons is so that mentors know every dungeon and mechanic like the palm of their hands and you get that only by experiencing yourselves over and over and over a 1000 times.

I personally think the rules will be adjusted later, until the number of mentors across the various worlds is at a level the developers are happy with - they can calculate how many people would be eligible easily enough but they won't know how many people actually plan to participate until the new system is live.

However, having one of each role at 60 should remain and any alternate routes for the dungeon requirement should be at least as difficult and time-consuming to obtain as that one is. Three level 60s is a trivial request and it's absolutely true that the experience you get playing various roles is like gold. It's all very well to say "I can learn from YouTube or guides or my own natural intelligence" but the weight of evidence shows that most people are not as good as they think in that respect. I have had enough gruelling experiences with novice tanks/DPS/healers who made it to level 60 without learning good teamwork to doubt any sweeping claims of competence posted on the Internet. I'm still learning stuff myself, even about my main job, and not all of that wisdom is limited to level 60 play. To assume that you already know everything there is to know seems awfully overconfident.

Understanding the challenges of levelling each type of job is important for giving out advice. I have several level 60s but no tanks (I don't enjoy tanking) and I know that for all of my experience healing across dozens of games and situations I can't give the detailed tanking advice I'd like to be able to. While I have stayed up for hours with my real-life partner (tank main) and discussed strategy so I think I'm probably better on the theory than most, investing a little time into actually putting things into action and feeling how the abilities interact and other players treat you as a tank is something that studying alone can't give you. The tank is often the default leader of any party and sets the pace, too. You can't learn the necessary social skills to be a great tank by running a few levequests to grab your cross-class skills then switching to something else.

And besides, as people have said it's simply logical to ensure that the mentor roulette has a good population of jobs available so there are never any troubles making parties. People can just pick whichever job is in need and compatible with their student at any time since there won't be any bottlenecks with players who have only got a DPS job levelled. I see no problem with this and don't mind having to do a tank job if that's what it takes.

The dungeons one is a bit harder for me as it's a chicken/egg issue. The main reason I would want to be a mentor is that I primarily want to play with new people; I don't enjoy joining roulettes with a bunch of other 60s and stomping familiar content at all. It's extremely efficient and safe, and it gets me the rewards in the least amount of time, but what I actually play MMOs for is a more social experience. Kind of like a mentor experience, in fact. Ironically, this means that I'm stuck in a situation where I don't want to repeatedly grind old dungeons/trials with other experienced players so I won't actually make the target for becoming eligible to focus on new ones for a long, long time (will FFXIV even still exist then?)

It's a shame my server is so small as opportunities to meet newcomers or join 'new player' learning groups in PF are limited and I'd hoped mentor roulette would have made things easier; still, if it means more new players will be doing content then I could benefit as a non-mentor too. I'd totally join mentor roulette for no reward of any kind other than the experience of being able to play with newbies too shy to come find me in PF.

(The commendations paranoia in the OP was fun too. If you do enough content you'll have enough commendations regardless of job - I originally mained BLM and did fine with them - so I don't even know why this requirement exists. It's pretty obvious to me why people get commendations and I imagine it's similar on English-speaking servers rather than them being full of horny guys desperate to reward cute girls. People who make funny jokes, look cool, play well or do something helpful get commendations. As a healer I sometimes give out guilt-commendations when I screwed up and didn't take good care of someone. Heck, sometimes I have just picked someone with a name I liked when all of the players were equally good.)

i have a bigger problem with the crafting and gathering mentoring. these are 2 completly different things. and not only that: i am an endgame fisher. i know a lot about fishing. but i have no idea about the other gatherers. why put all of them together? i can understand this for PVE, but crafting and gathering?

and what should i teach a newbie about gathering in his first 40 hours of playtime? "click that tree, click the item you want, go to the next tree" i don't understand this. crafting okay, but who needs a mentor for gathering? the interesting part about gathering starts only at lvl 50. and of course new players MUST play their battle class first for unlocking all the stuff with the main scenario. that will take a while. i don't think any new player will reach endgame gathering in his first 40 hours...

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Originally Posted by Tint

i have a bigger problem with the crafting and gathering mentoring. these are 2 completly different things. and not only that: i am an endgame fisher. i know a lot about fishing. but i have no idea about the other gatherers. why put all of them together?

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I guess that the logic is that no matter what you've been doing, to meet the DoH/DoL requirements takes a lots of time and effort so you're presumed to be reasonably well-rounded and knowledgeable about the game in general by the point you qualify. Except it kind of flies against the justification for the battle class requirements in every way. I'm sort of the opposite of you as I love gathering but can't stand fishing, and everything you say in this post makes perfect sense. I think the only questions I had when I started fishing (botany and mining are so self-evident that there were none) were just about finding specific low level fish which isn't really something a mentor is required for :s

I was hoping i could get my friend who mainly spend his time crafting and gathering as mentor for DoL/DoH.
I havent crafted in almost a year since i got my Lucis and then HW happened. I completely stopped crafting to focus on battle jobs and now i forgot rotations and stuff. With him as my mentor, he could have been able to teach me how to craft efficiently again AND be rewarded for it, but nope...
I have the requirement to be a mentor myself so i cant get one for me.

I iz sad.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

To assume that you already know everything there is to know seems awfully overconfident.

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Not sure if this is directed towards me but if it was, I definitely don't know everything. I cannot teach people how to play their jobs thoroughly and to the point compared to someone who knows has the job as their career job or something. But I can still teach the basics that a newbie should learn in their first 40hrs. No newbie should be lv45 in 40hrs. They had to have been getting help somewhere.

Were the fundamentals I listed wrong though? Will those not be helpful during the first 40hrs of play?

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Originally Posted by Tint

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Because the fundamentals of fishing....

nvm..

For crafting I hear you need cross-class skills and rotations to create high-end items. That's completely useless though because you wont be makin' nuffin' at a low level. Them being 60 does not help you in the slightest at that level..

For Gathering, maybe they can tell you what a cordial is or which Gathering Up/HQ Up to use? Dunno..

Playing a healer and a DPS class is almost imperative to tank properly, and viceversa. You need to understand how healers cooldowns and abilities work to take the most benefit from them, like waiting for Protect, SS II, change to Defiance for an adlo in between phases in a boss fight, or position accordingly to receive a Medica in time. And also to know when the healer needs you to pop a cooldown and when it's not necessary.
And also don't move the enemies at all unless necessary, to not fuck up MNK's positionals or NIN's trick attacks.

Everyone think they can teach new players, but only those with that much experience actually should.

No matter what the requirements someone was going to be unhappy. I suspect they'll adjust this at some point, perhaps adding specialists at higher levels and perhaps more. A mentor should be someone with experience and the requirements as set at the moment seem fine to me. i'm sure there are those who don't meet the requirements who'd be excellent teachers and some who do who won't be. One has to hope that those who do elect to help will in fact be helpful.

I'm curious about the crafting mentor system because I'd like a mentor.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Having the dungeon restriction makes no sense as you can learn the fundamentals of combat in 300 dungeons. I'm sure there are tons of people who are left out of teaching because of the requirements. Left out of teaching early fundamentals about the game itself AND combat fundamentals.

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I'm just going to address this since the rest is your typical spiel of you being awesome and knowing everything.

Do you think SE cares if a large number of the population can't be mentors? Nope, not at all. Odds are the current people that already meet the criteria will be more than enough for all the new players we're getting. Like, we mentors probably outnumber new players several times over.

And another thing is that you're not looking at this from a design perspective, or even a talent-recruitment perspective. Yes, you and similarly talented players may be able to grasp the entire concept of roles without actually playing them, but without the actual job at 60 there is no way for the system to know you know. It is the same thing as looking for talent or getting new people for a job: You post requirements, and typically only very special cases get a pass without meeting these.

You might be an amazing teacher for example, but without anything that certifies it all you have is your word for it. Companies hiring teacher will simply tell you "Go get certified, you should have no trouble if you are as good as you say". This is the same concept. If you are the hotshot player that needs no experience to know the in's and out, well then what's stopping you? Go get the jobs at 60, it's not a hard requirement. SE isn't going to send a GM in person to quiz you on your knowledge of the jobs because you are a special snowflake.

Oh and another thing. You said several times that "You can grasp the fundamentals of jobs before level 40". Even if this was true (Not) North Than fate grind requires you to be at least around 40. So per your own argument, those people botting their way to 60 have "The same level of knowledge" that you claim to have. Your own arguments defeat themselves :/

You don't fit the requirements but claim you want to help people. My question is: What, exactly, is stopping you from doing this WITHOUT using this system in the first place? If someone needs help/advice, you can still do it without being a part of the system.

OP, if you don't play all roles in the game you have a VERY skewed perception of how fights and gameplay works. You need to know how to play all three roles to properly give assistance to players, go back in game and level what you're missing and see how wrong you are.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Lv60 Healer, DPS, and Tank
Reason For Placement: Players who have at least one level 60 Healer, DPS, and Tank will be more able to give advice to new players and their classes + basics.

Flaw: This is probably one of the dumbest restrictions they could've added. If I am a career Dragoon, why would I need to be a lv60 White Mage/Scholar/Astrologian AND a Lv60 Paladin/Warrior/Dark Knight to teach my Dragoon student how to Dragoon?

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I think its important to understand how other classes work. As a healer its helpful for me to understand tank cooldowns. Similarly I think it's important as a DPS to know how your actions affect how healers heal.

Gonna ignore the whole car/bus/plane mechanic bit...I shouldnt have to address why that's a ridiculous comparison.

Fact is, playing all 3 roles gives you a better understanding of how to play your role. With things such as mechanics, positions, skills, party make up, etc.

I'd give examples but you can go level all 3 yourself to understand, then you can become a mentor :D


If anything I think the commendation requirement should be increased to 500 or 1000.

btw- just reading this thread, I wanted to point out that SE will prolly make it so the comms and dungeons thing only counts after the patch maybe?...
Like everything else they added in it never started counting until after the patch. So even if you already got 500 commendations and have done however many dungeons already.
It will only count after the patch goes live, in which case you all might have to start at 1 whoever is counting....
The lvl 60 jobs will count atleast, since you can't level them again :P.
Let's hope that's not what they do, cuz otherwise it may be a bit until we see our first Mentor ><.

For the healer class you need at level 60, can't you just level SMN? Once you're level 60 SMN, you're automatically level 60 SCH. Unless I'm missing something, you don't have to heal at all in order to do that.

The only problem I have with the mentor system is the 40 hour limit for newbies, it should be more like 100 hrs and/or a job at 60. If we consider a new player will be doing MSQ which they would have to then it will eat into their 40 hrs significantly. They should at least be able to get to some of the more difficult dungeons like SV, AV and the Vault (especially for healers) where they will be tested a bit with a mentor to help them.

As for the other stuff, it's really easy to get 300 commendations and anyone who has done 1000 dungeons should have many more than that, if not they shouldn't be a mentor in the first place as there is obviously something wrong. I find I get plenty in all roles but in my experience it's harder to get them as a tank than healer or DPS because of the higher expectations people have of that role. If the OP had experience in the role he'd know that. To get a comm on BLM all I have to do is use Flare and keep Enochian up, that's enough to impress most people, as a healer I have to make the party feel safe which can be difficult depending on the content and group but as a tank I have to set the right pace, mitigate damage, contribute to damage, know the dungeon inside out, position the pack, not move the pack and keep enmity even from the most obnoxious DPS. All while dodging 5 times more AoE than anyone else. Failure to do those usually means not comm. Play well as a tank and it will often go unnoticed, any mistakes will be obvious though and it's reflected in how many comms you get.

1000 dungeons is fair enough, experienced applicants only please.

Having one of each of the trinity at 60 is also right, the only people who claim they don't need this are people that don't have it. For those that have done it it's pretty obvious how much you gain from seeing instances from all the different perspectives.

The point of having at least a job at 60 in all three roles is that you can actually say "come to Gridania/Uldah/Limsa, I'll show you a few skills from each roles and how to use them on dummies".

There'll be quite a lot of people in the mentor chat, so meeting newbies will be a key point to show stuff to them. If you only have one job at 60, all the "teaching" you can provide will only come from text... and at this point, telling them to read a guide would have mostly the same effect.

Also, don't forget that the mentor system is also something that was made to help newbies get hooked to the game and start subscribing. Meeting veteran players, joining FCs and getting a good glimpse at what a well all rounded character looks like is a very important point.
A dude with only one job at 60 is kind of boring.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Commendations.

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It's not like commendations are mandatory, commendations are completely dependent on the other person, their mood, and what they think of you and the rest of the party. Some people never commend, some people commend based on skill, some commend based on appearance, and some commend a random person to complete their challenge log because it's the day before reset. There are way too many factors involved for any testing to be 100% accurate.

I can understand why SE included commendations as a part of the requirement, because they want commendable players to be teaching new people. To commend means to praise, usually for their effort or performance on a task. Wouldn't you want someone who has been noted to be worthy of praise for their efforts?

And I've stated this in another thread, but attitude goes a long way. Gender, race, class, doesn't mean much if people don't like the person behind the keyboard. My boyfriend mains tank (he basically runs it exclusively for the faster queues), he plays a female character, he has run twice as many dungeons/trials as me (as he has been playing longer), and, imo, he's much better at this game than me, yet I have twice as many commendations than him. Why? Because he tends to not say anything in runs. While I tend to talk (sometimes a lot), even if it's just a hello and good-bye.

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Multiple jobs

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The Mentor Roulette is going to throw you into a dungeon with someone who has never completed the run before and you are their source of information if they need it, about their class, the dungeon, anything and everything. This means that you are going to require knowledge for more than one role. If you only play/know how to play healer and you get a dungeon where the tank asks you how to hold aggro, your healing knowledge does him no use. Saying "Idk, I only play healer" isn't going to help anyone because there is no other healer for you to relay healer-only information to. You're going to need to know something about the other classes, and the best way to get that knowledge is through first hand experience.

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Dungeons and trials

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As you said, this comes down to experience. There are about 100 dungeons and trials in this game currently, so that's about 10 clears of everything to hit that 1,000 minimum. If someone is going to lead a group where the other 3 to 7 (or even 23 if you dare to queue for LotA) have 0 experience in that dungeon/trial, I know I'd personally like them to have more clears under their belt than just the one they needed for the quest. Granted, I do think this number could be a little lower, 500 (so about 5 of each run) would have been just as good, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

On my main(dragoon), I only had 36 comms at the end of 2.0 scenario. As a test, I made an Au Ra female(dragoon) and by the end of a rushed 2.0 storyline(roulette/dungeon/guildhest spam), this character reached 97 commendations. I always say "Hello all." as a greeting on my main. On this character I said "Hi". I was astonished..

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As interesting as this is, it is way too small of a sample size to draw a conclusion from. Commendations are very easy to obtain, I average 1 per run (I am at 1400/1800, but I mostly run expert with friends and did a lot of solo Ifrit farming for light)

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Flaw: This is probably one of the dumbest restrictions they could've added. If I am a career Dragoon, why would I need to be a lv60 White Mage/Scholar/Astrologian AND a Lv60 Paladin/Warrior/Dark Knight to teach my Dragoon student how to Dragoon? You do not need lv60 everything to know "Basics". I can learn basics by getting lv15 or 30 of one of every role. If I am a mechanic.. and I want to teach a new recruit how to fix a car, why would I need to know how to fix a train and a plane to teach him? Or need to know how to fix a bus and a monster truck?

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I agree and disagree. I think having one of each role at max level helps give you a holistic view of the party. It really does enlighten you to aspects of the job that you don't really get to understand from an outsiders perspective. That said, I think that someone could easily have every job at 60 and be a worse mentor than someone who plays a single job.

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There are players who have joined since Heavensward, or maybe 3.1 who by now, know EXACTLY what to do with their jobs and maybe have even cleared hardcore raiding content, or all content possibly. But they cant be a mentor because they didn't clear 1,000 easy dungeons? I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people with 1,000 dungeons/trials completed have grinded for Zodiac Weapons and/or Tank mounts. Grinding Garuda (HM) and T4 unsynced makes a mentor? Why punish newer players who know their roles thoroughly because they have not grinded the same thing over and over? Grinding something like Ifrit (NM) is all some can do to participate in this nice new feature. I saw a couple on this very forum hoping it will get fixed.

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I think it's an artificial placement to prevent people who have little experience from helping out with incorrect information.


I agree, the restrictions are pretty stupid, but I get why they made them. I'd have preferred it if they just had a test that you needed to complete, or maybe you can skip the above by answering a test?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I agree, the restrictions are pretty stupid, but I get why they made them. I'd have preferred it if they just had a test that you needed to complete, or maybe you can skip the above by answering a test?

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Wouldn't people just post the answers on the internet though? I mean, they couldn't design a test with an infinite number of questions, so it would likely be pretty easy to get around this.

All this discussion on whether the requirements for mentor are too high or not. Fact is, if this is anything like FFXI, you avoided anyone displaying a "mentor" flag as they were invariably all ego and no ability.

FFXIV doesn't need a mentor system. Really, how many new subscribers are they getting that would need this feature? It's being added not as a benefit to new players but as more "content" for existing players. That is why the requirements are set as high as they are - keep those subscriptions sticky!

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

All this discussion on whether the requirements for mentor are too high or not. Fact is, if this is anything like FFXI, you avoided anyone displaying a "mentor" flag as they were invariably all ego and no ability.

FFXIV doesn't need a mentor system. Really, how many new subscribers are they getting that would need this feature? It's being added not as a benefit to new players but as more "content" for existing players. That is why the requirements are set as high as they are - keep those subscriptions sticky!

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Ok, and why shouldn't this game have a mentor system? If the mentor system was only to "keep" veteran players around, then why are the rewards not given out at the same time to keep those players in? I'm also guessing the new content coming like more story content, more dungeons, and more Alexander raids weren't designed for veteran players either.

My only issue is with the commendations because they don't mean what SE apparently thinks they mean. Perhaps it's different on the JP side of things, but here it's not at all a measure of a player's ability to help or do their job.

When they were first introduced it was nothing more than a measure of how many could be farmed in a synchronized DF with friends to get those rewards in a day. Now it seems they're typically only a show of how many people can be arsed to hand them out to the first name in the list (tank) before rushing to the exit. Most don't even do that. Honestly, I'd wager a better measure of a player's willingness to help lately would be better based on commendations given, not received.

Not that it matters really. Like another poster mentioned, I figure this mentor system will go the way of XIs, and those with the special labels will be some of the least helpful people you'll ever meet. It's a status symbol that many will treat as a trophy and because of that, I predict you'll be hard pressed to find an actual mentor-minded person in the mentor system, at least on this side of the lake.

Maybe I'm just being cynical. We'll see. Although I will meet all requirements, I don't plan on participating unless it actually turns out to be what it says it is, and not just another thing to parade around in Idyllshire.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Wouldn't people just post the answers on the internet though? I mean, they couldn't design a test with an infinite number of questions, so it would likely be pretty easy to get around this.

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Well I mean a test in various ways. It could be a performance test where you need to show your skill. It could be multiple choice, could be both.

If people are cheating to become a mentor then.. 0.o

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Ok, and why shouldn't this game have a mentor system? If the mentor system was only to "keep" veteran players around, then why are the rewards not given out at the same time to keep those players in? I'm also guessing the new content coming like more story content, more dungeons, and more Alexander raids weren't designed for veteran players either.

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The purpose of updates is to add more content, primarily to to keep existing subscribers busy. The mentor system is no different. It's a new, grindy goal that existing players can work on. Get that third class to 60!

I'm not saying that some new players may get good advice from a mentor, which will make their game experience better. I still think, though, that the real reason for the feature is not to benefit new players but to give more content to existing subs, and thus keep the money flowing.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

The purpose of updates is to add more content, primarily to to keep existing subscribers busy. The mentor system is no different. It's a new, grindy goal that existing players can work on. Get that third class to 60!

I'm not saying that some new players may get good advice from a mentor, which will make their game experience better. I still think, though, that the real reason for the feature is not to benefit new players but to give more content to existing subs, and thus keep the money flowing.

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You could say that for all updated content though and even I'm not that jaded to say it's ONLY about the money and subs. People were wanting a mentor system for some time and only now we are getting the results.

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Originally Posted by Toguro

Tank fundamentals: Keeping aggro on all enemies, position them away from your team to avoid AoEs and AoE melee attacks bosses tend to have, look at your team's classes,(I have a pugilist, I need to make sure they can get their attacks in so I must have the enemies in a position to attack efficiently), Provoking(Although technically not a "fundamental" because that is learned at lv22, you would already need to know how to tank then but Provoke is a must-know), watching your root source of enmity(TP/MP you need that to keep attacking to keep aggro), checking your team's gear(gotta know what gear they have before you do things to make decisions in the long run), knowing your enmity attacks like Skull Sunder or Savage Blade and how they work(This includes Flash range), cycling through enemies to obtain substantial aggro on ALL enemies in the group so in case a team member does not know the fundamentals of focusing, you will not lose aggro.

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What you've listed is what you know from your bare-bones tanking experience. Now, suppose that a newbie tank asks you how tanking changes at higher levels.

Things you, at level 30 have experienced and can teach from first-hand experience:

-Keeping AoE enmity on trash pulls (Flash, Overpower, Unleash)

-Use your agro combo on single targets

Thing a level 60 tank can explain from first-hand experience:

-Actual defensive cooldown rotations: how they work in relation to another, cooldown synergy, as well as which cooldowns don't work together (something you have absolutely no experience with as a lv 30 MRD when Bloodbath and Foresight are your only defensive cooldowns).

-Stance dancing: when to do it, how cooldowns can make up for your lower defense or HP, which cooldowns have the highest synergy with your offensive stance or lack of tank stance, when not to stance dance.

Utility and DPS combos: what they do, how they are important to use once you have secure agro, which ones have a higher priority.

Resource management: managing your MP as a DRK, managing your Wrath/Abandons stacks as a WAR (you can't even use your stacks at level 30).

Also, about your provoke comment: you learn it at 22, but don't use it for its full effect until at least level 50, where tank swapping is first introduced. You can explain how after Provoke, it's best to follow up with a high enmity skill as WAR or PLD, or how it's safe to not do that as a DRK because your large number of otGCD attacks can make up for it if you have them up at the time you provoke. You can also teach more creative uses for Provoke, like pulling a monster before an obstacle that you can't reach with Unmend/Tomahawk/Shield Lob, like in Neverreap, or even closer to the newbie tank's 40 hour period, the patrols in Stone Vigil.

Also, not all DPS follow the "fundamentals" of focusing, because as an ARC/SMN, you have enough DoTs for your first dungeon to learn that your optimal DPS rotation for trash includes DoTing everything rather than just focusing down one monster. What you have is a very general (yet solid, for your level) and vague idea of tanking, and again, you cannot go into details when you try to explain something you have no first-hand experience with. Again, you've barely scratched the surface.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

Yes I agree the requirements for mentors seem arbitrary, but what would be better choices?

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I think having a special Stone, Sky, Sea dummy set up that expects you to hit 90-95% of your maximum DPS on a DPS role is a better qualification for testing that you know how to play your monk or ninja or black mage than anything SE has pushed for so far. It would weed out the "ice mages" who would otherwise qualify as mentors. People should know how to play their roles by the time they have all those commendations and dungeon requirements completed, but so many of the people in this game still don't. I'd rather directly test ability than, like the relic and anima weapons, just track time played.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I think having a special Stone, Sky, Sea dummy set up that expects you to hit 90-95% of your maximum DPS on a DPS role is a better qualification for testing that you know how to play your monk or ninja or black mage than anything SE has pushed for so far.

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I'm sure the knowledge of how to push 90-95% of one's potential DPS in a specific class will be of immense use to a newbie who doesn't even know jobs exist *cough*

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I'm sure the knowledge of how to push 90-95% of one's potential DPS in a specific class will be of immense use to a newbie who doesn't even know jobs exist *cough*

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I'm sure they'll be better off with someone who knows how to play his job instead of someone who doesn't but arbitrarily passes the requirements because they're just testing time played rather than skill.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I think having a special Stone, Sky, Sea dummy set up that expects you to hit 90-95% of your maximum DPS on a DPS role is a better qualification for testing that you know how to play your monk or ninja or black mage than anything SE has pushed for so far. It would weed out the "ice mages" who would otherwise qualify as mentors. People should know how to play their roles by the time they have all those commendations and dungeon requirements completed, but so many of the people in this game still don't. I'd rather directly test ability than, like the relic and anima weapons, just track time played.

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It sounds like a good idea, but if I'm understanding the content correctly, there will be different dummies in SSS depending on the encounter you wanna test your DPS against, so then it would be up to SE to set up which dummy you need to beat in order to become a mentor, and also a way for the game to test if the dummy you beat is relative to your average iLv: like, beating the dummy for BisEX at ilv 150 would show you know how to play your job, but beating the same dummy at ilv210 doesn't prove much. The next comment is a bit off-topic, but it would be a good idea if SE locked content to DPS players until they beat the dummy specific to the fight the want to attempt.

I know there is a lot of back and forth here but I think a key point that was made is that it's only 40 hrs. After that they are cut loose! The ideal is the mentees keep in contact with their mentors for later game help, but that might be atypical.

So! What I would suggest is create a LS that could be for mentors/mentees after the 40 hrs. Those that want to continue and help can and the mentees will be exposed to people on the same level and vets that are ready to help. I have already created that for crafting/gathering on Ultros and helped lead the original beginners hall. Now I just have to create the DoW/M. If you're interested in helping it is in your hands.

If anyone is interested in this or how to get it started let me know and I will try to set up a Reddit or forum post. Good luck everyone do your best! :)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

And the big one, a player who has played DPS, Healer and Tank has not only played three jobs, but a wide range of jobs. Know why? Because a successful player has gained cross-class skills from a variety of jobs, and will understand which skills benefit most.

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This is a leap in logic. There's no requirement on which classes they need to 60 other than 1 of each role. DPS classes in particular might need Invigorate and Blood for Blood from LNC, Second Wind from PGL, and Raging/Quelling Strikes from ARC. Much less healers find great use in Swiftcast from THM. None of these skills are really required by any content listed as pre-reqs for being a mentor, so to assume a player has it isn't logical. They SHOULD have it, but there's no method to ensure they do and no real challenge that would force them to do so.

The rest of your argument was sound, but there's just no proof or requirement that Mentors grabbed the cross class skills they should have grabbed.

Not to be argumentative or piss in your cheerios OP, but how would you have set the requirements? I'm genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

This is a leap in logic. ... They SHOULD have it, but there's no method to ensure they do and no real challenge that would force them to do so.

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Sure, it's not mandatory, but anyone who has three level 60 jobs, has participated in over 1000 dungeons, and has anywhere near their 300 commendations almost certainly has cross-class skills. I'd strongly argue that anyone who managed to fulfill those requirements would not have been able to do so without them, since they'd be kicked off the team more often than not.