Dev decisions get away from the player demnads ( Parser PVP Goldsaucer diadem ect.)

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i dont think the dummy / training room is wasted resources , however i think that Lord of vermillions and the new pvp systems are wasted resourices and time ...to something ppl will play on the 1 day and never touch again , training room will be the same for lots of ppl , but if that room helps 1 of every 100 players i would be more than happy.

Diadem could have been awesome....but.... :(

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In what way a dummy will help?
So you smash your head against a dummy than on the real thing, but still you dont know how to improve (instanced, no observers allowed) - all you will know is if you succeeded or failed in DPS check...
Well, square enix is listeneing to the wrong players... i remember someone made a suggestion about: "all will be better if those newbies will not join my groups"
Instead of "training parties" we will only get "join if you have beaten doll parties" and i bet with you - it will become a lot harder to get anyone "willing" to join the group.

Edit: Just a sidenote: The timing on the real thing is different from the timing on a dummy, if the dummy use the same mechanics (i doubt)

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Originally Posted by Laladyn

No way to proove that you ever beat any dummy

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There may be achievements added related to the content that will allow you to show what you've done.

Just about everything you're saying is an instance of the developers being out of touch with the playerbase was at some point requested by some segment of the playerbase—that's why the dummy DPS tests, Gold Saucer, Lords of Verminion, Exploratory Missions and so on were all added. Players asked for them. The wants of the playerbase are actually pretty varied, as the game covers a lot of demographics and playstyles.

What normally happens is that Group of Players A requests a certain type of content or tool for the game, and the developers respond by developing content to address that request. Group of Players B then comes around and complains that the developers aren't listening to the players at all because they did that instead of some other thing they want, completely forgetting that the developers can't really listen to all players at once because the player base is not a uniform mass that has the same simple desires.

No piece of content is going to appease the wants of 100% of the playerbase. Most content probably only hits some fraction of it. Be careful not to confuse your desires or the desires of those who agree with you with the desires of the entire playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

There may be achievements added related to the content that will allow you to show what you've done.

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They explicitly said they were not adding any achievements for Stone, Sea and Sky.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

No piece of content is going to appease the wants of 100% of the playerbase. Most content probably only hits some fraction of it. Be careful not to confuse your desires or the desires of those who agree with you with the desires of the entire playerbase.

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The Dev team are also human. The can not guarantee that they will get a piece of content right on the first attempt. It also takes resources to fix the problems that are found.

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Originally Posted by Laladyn

Majority of PC player base allready uses parsers nothing you can do about. If you would play on PC or are interested in endgame contend you would too.

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I don't really understand this post, are you saying if person not playing on PC and using a parser they a bad player or something? Could you explain more?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I understand your points. Just as your gaming history and experience doesn't lead you to the tradition of minigames I was talking about, so my gaming history doesn't really lead me to raiding and end-game. As per your quote, the player base can't really agree on what we want collectively. So we end up with quickly implemented mini-games (which is fine) and less end-game content than core end-game players would like. I'll say that's fine too since it's not my thing to do. But I know you'll disagree because it spreads the dev resource more thinly than is ideal for any one type of content.

Unless their team grows a bit, that's always going to be the case. But then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing, smaller teams often make quicker and more effective decisions because they are not paralyzed by 'committee' decision making. Despite that thought, I agree that an increase in Dev resources on the core game side of things would be a very good decision on their part, but I'd like to see that happen without taking away resources from side quests, mini-games and other non-core content.

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Hey, I just wanted to add.. I was having a discussion with someone about Guild Wars 2 and I felt there was a lot of crossover here. I am not against mini-games per se. In Guild Wars 2, I loved jumping puzzles. I also enjoyed their seasonal activities (particularly the Super Adventure Box). I feel they did an amazing job with their side activities. If Square added something as fun as either of these 2, I wouldn't be complaining.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i dont think the dummy / training room is wasted resources , however i think that Lord of vermillions and the new pvp systems are wasted resourices and time ...to something ppl will play on the 1 day and never touch again , training room will be the same for lots of ppl , but if that room helps 1 of every 100 players i would be more than happy.

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PvP is probably the best thing XIV has going at the moment... There is a clear difference between 2.1s Wolves' Den and what we're getting with Feast, and every step of the way in Frontlines has had improvements. Still very much lacking in some regards, but PvP is the only aspect of the game I think the developers care about at this point... Shame they don't retroactively adjust the old PvP content to improve it and instead leave it irrelevant... Feast is currently looked upon with excitement from the PvP half of this game, meanwhile what PvE players are honestly looking forward to 3.2?

I look at dungeons and I see them getting easier and more linear, same with with raids. What's the difference between the PvE content in 2.1 and the PvE content in 3.1? The skin. That's it. In the dungeons you're doing the exact same thing, all the changes are superficial. In Diadem you've got a compact mess similar to Hunts. And Void Ark just straight up copies LotA (three groups off trash, a boss, some trash the alliance splits into three areas for, a boss, etc.). Hate on PvP all you like, but the team in charge of PvP actually seems to slowly be listening to their community and adding some long sought after adjustments (Feast has Assists, it's hard for me not to be happy). Meanwhile the PvE team just churns out the same thing update after update... People complained about Atma in 2.#? Better repeat that step then! It's really quite ironic...

That's another point, actually. There are different teams within the development team. From what I've gathered from comments over the years, they absolutely have a team working on PvE content, and an entirely separate one working on PvP. There would also seem to be a group working on Gold Saucer and Housing (I recall a comment that Housing adjustments were delayed ~2.5 because the team was working on Gold Saucer)... So... The Feast is not taking away from PvE content, nor is Lord of Verminion, though we're all welcome to complain about that regardless, because it's awful. Far too complex for a mini-game, Lord of Vermilion is its own stand alone game for a reason, I think... Kind of stupid to just stick such a game into XIV as a mini-game. Chocobo Racing and Triple Triad are very basic in their introduction (as is something like Pokemans) and they build up from there, meanwhile Lord of Verminion dumps a new controller setting on you right away, as well as all your minions with new skills, strengths and weaknesses. It's too overwhelming to process all that at the start, so many simply don't bother, and most certainly aren't going to dedicate their game time to it, and wont even be able to, because of the small playerbase it has here anyway...

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Hey, I just wanted to add.. I was having a discussion with someone about Guild Wars 2 and I felt there was a lot of crossover here. I am not against mini-games per se. In Guild Wars 2, I loved jumping puzzles. I also enjoyed their seasonal activities (particularly the Super Adventure Box). I feel they did an amazing job with their side activities. If Square added something as fun as either of these 2, I wouldn't be complaining.

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Considering the sophistication of the client, I'm kind of surprised that we have only had one implementation of a platform/jumping game mechanic, and that is in the Gold Saucer.

Actually, I'd like to see them make use of some of the mechanics that they've introduced in minigames, in their dungeons. For example;

• you have to force a door, use the mechanics of the punching game or the 1.x gathering minigames,
• need to make an area difficult to get to, use the platform/jumping mechanics,
• need a physical puzzle, use the dance mechanics from the dancing GATE event so you have to repeat a sequence of emotes,
• trying to get the key to work, use the Moogle grabber game where you have to line up on the target on the X and Y axis
• Need to trigger an even with items collected along the way, use the basketball toss mechanic minigame and get 4 out of 6 in on target, or go collect more from the mobs (that will respawn...never understood why monsters in FFXIV dungeons are incapable of respawning, and almost never patrol...),
• use the sliding puzzle mechanic from the toy box minigame to decode a door entry code,

There is a lot of scope here to use all these different mechanics that they have already implemented. The mechanics that already exist in the game can be used differently, the mini-games are not a wast IMHO because those mini-games could be built upon for use in regular content.

Heck we already have meta games using the jumping of our characters when we try to find ways onto the roofs of houses, or find difficult to access ledges in More Donuts, and other locations.

It goes both ways, flight brings a new element to Chocobo travel, so why not have flight based races, or races that use ground and flight modes, and even a bit of jumping/platforming?

There is a lot of potential, but I am concerned that the speed, speed, speed efficiency over everything mentality of some players may have convinced SE that sprinkling in things like the above ideas would be a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

They explicitly said they were not adding any achievements for Stone, Sea and Sky.

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Ah, I must have missed that.

Yeah, that does rather limit its usefulness.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Considering the sophistication of the client, I'm kind of surprised that we have only had one implementation of a platform/jumping game mechanic, and that is in the Gold Saucer.


Actually, I'd like to see them make use of some of the mechanics that they've introduced in minigames, in their dungeons. For example;

• you have to force a door, use the mechanics of the punching game or the 1.x gathering minigames,
• need to make an area difficult to get to, use the platform/jumping mechanics,
• need a physical puzzle, use the dance mechanics from the dancing GATE event so you have to repeat a sequence of emotes,
• trying to get the key to work, use the Moogle grabber game where you have to line up on the target on the X and Y axis
• Need to trigger an even with items collected along the way, use the basketball toss mechanic minigame and get 4 out of 6 in on target, or go collect more from the mobs (that will respawn...never understood why monsters in FFXIV dungeons are incapable of respawning, and almost never patrol...),
• use the sliding puzzle mechanic from the toy box minigame to decode a door entry code,

There is a lot of scope here to use all these different mechanics that they have already implemented. The mechanics that already exist in the game can be used differently, the mini-games are not a wast IMHO because those mini-games could be built upon for use in regular content.

Heck we already have meta games using the jumping of our characters when we try to find ways onto the roofs of houses, or find difficult to access ledges in More Donuts, and other locations.

It goes both ways, flight brings a new element to Chocobo travel, so why not have flight based races, or races that use ground and flight modes, and even a bit of jumping/platforming?

There is a lot of potential, but I am concerned that the speed, speed, speed efficiency over everything mentality of some players may have convinced SE that sprinkling in things like the above ideas would be a bad idea.

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I completely agree, and upon considering GW2, I was thinking almost the opposite as well. They could use the template of the open world to create mini-games. The mini-games as they are feel very disconnected from the rest of the game (whether you are controlling minions, looking at a window pop up of cards or whatever), whereas the stuff in GW2 involves your avatar running around and using your hotbar. Skills may change on your hotbar (as is in Super Adventure Box) or you can use your job skills to complete jumping puzzles etc.

A connection between mini-games and the rest of the game would go a long way to improving things. Whether that is as you said, taking mini-game mechanics to core gameplay or core game mechanics to mini-games.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

A connection between mini-games and the rest of the game would go a long way to improving things. Whether that is as you said, taking mini-game mechanics to core gameplay or core game mechanics to mini-games.

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It should go both ways to imrpove the responsiveness and depth of some minigames and at the same time add variety to the open world and dungeons. of course it can go too far, imagine if very chest required you to complete a decode puzzle or correctly force the lock through a minigame mechanic. That would get old very quickly. But the things is, there is a lot of scope, and variety in what could be done, it just requires some imagination.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Heck we already have meta games using the jumping of our characters when we try to find ways onto the roofs of houses, or find difficult to access ledges in More Donuts, and other locations.

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No please not another "Sightseeing Log" 2.28, i do not like to stay in dungeon and wait for the correct weather just to pass a door!
You must not use minigames, there are a ton other things that can be used "differently" - just check every skill (yes, we also have some global skills too)
Lets say depending on debuff boss acts differently or use debuff on dolls, stand near switches just like capture the flag in pvp or push leviathan adds from platform...
The fear i have is just that they will make those into oneshot mechanics like they did with most of the added mechanics - if you dont go to tower with thunder chain, you will die!
There is no trial and error if you always die...

*looks at this thread*

*looks at the Devs decision to listen to the playerbase regarding things like harder raid content*

*looks at Alexander Savage and the subsequent blowback by the raiding community, and just about everyone else who plays the game about how hard it was*

*looks into the camera like on the Office*

The dev team listens to the playerbase plenty. Just because they don't post in every thread, it doesn't mean that they don't listen and attempt to implement content. If anything, I kinda think that the dev team needs to stop worrying so much about the playerbase's whims on "content structure". If something isn't working, the playerbase is more than keen to let the Dev team know and the Dev team is generally more than keen to work that feedback in. But not all feedback is necessary, constructive, or even realistic. And gamers complain about EVERYTHING - meaning that according to the playerbase "the game isn't doing well" because the dev team isn't listening to their specific concern(s).

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I don't really understand this post, are you saying if person not playing on PC and using a parser they a bad player or something? Could you explain more?

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No im confused now . I say you can only use a parsers on PC atm, and if you play PC you will most likely use one and that everyone who progresses in endgame is using them. ON Console you cant have a parser. I play on PS4 and really feel at a disadvantage to PC players that can and do use Parsers.

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Originally Posted by Felis

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...802-10-2016%29

He also said it in some interviews

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You should read the whole context. The "final audjustments" are targetting Alex Midas (Savage). They are not for Alex Gordias (Savage).

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Originally Posted by Laladyn

No im confused now . I say you can only use a parsers on PC atm, and if you play PC you will most likely use one and that everyone who progresses in endgame is using them. ON Console you cant have a parser. I play on PS4 and really feel at a disadvantage to PC players that can and do use Parsers.

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Except you're not supposed to use them. Using them is against the TOS and publicly admiting you use them can get you banned.

When are we getting Lord of Vermilion Spectator Mode? :D

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Originally Posted by azlewood

dps meters are dumb, and unintentionally encourage negative behavior in players.

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This completely typifies what I have heard a lot from those against parsers.
No real argument, no explanations, no supporting evidence, just a random "they are bad. The end"

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Ah, I must have missed that.

Yeah, that does rather limit its usefulness.

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I'm pretty sure that's the point. They're against DPS meters being the end all judge of players, so of course they're going to hide the results of DPS self improvement features to you alone.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

This completely typifies what I have heard a lot from those against parsers.
No real argument, no explanations, no supporting evidence, just a random "they are bad. The end"

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They are bad, though. They're often abused and exploited as a means of harassing players. A mentor system that encourages players to help out other players is much, much more useful than a system that allows people to stand back and screech about how amazing their DPS is whilst badmouthing anything that doesn't fit their overly bloated standards.


You need only look at MMO's such as WoW to see why DPS meters aren't a pleasant affair. This is, thankfully, also an MMO that has a very 'Japanese' attitude about player interaction. Luckily for those who 'cannot live' without a DPS meter there's plenty of MMO's catered to their tastes out there at the moment. :)

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

This completely typifies what I have heard a lot from those against parsers.
No real argument, no explanations, no supporting evidence, just a random "they are bad. The end"

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I would say the same of those who whine for their inclusion, except replace "bad" with "good".

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

You should read the whole context. The "final audjustments" are targetting Alex Midas (Savage). They are not for Alex Gordias (Savage).

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Sometime they said they gonna nerv Gordias , also echo coming to it is very possible.

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Originally Posted by Lego3400

Except you're not supposed to use them. Using them is against the TOS and publicly admiting you use them can get you banned.

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Yea but thats the point, People using them and of course there are no real numbers but from my experience 80%+ of the PC players do, Also alot of the console players like myself would like to have a tool like a parser for many reasons, and still the devs decide to spend alot of Resources on an instanced dummy that acts as a limited DPS meter and still that demand could be fullfilled much better and with much less resources if they just would add a ingame parser. Also it would put all current users out of the grey zone of breaking the ToU. Also a parser could just been personal and only show your own DPS if thats the real concern they have. I just dont get what they are thinking, i think its stupid not to add one-

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

I would say the same of those who whine for their inclusion, except replace "bad" with "good".

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There are definitly real reason for and against a parser, in my oppinion the arguments that are pro parser are more and more imortant then the contra parser ones.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

This is, thankfully, also an MMO that has a very 'Japanese' attitude about player interaction. Luckily for those who 'cannot live' without a DPS meter there's plenty of MMO's catered to their tastes out there at the moment. :)

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That '"Japanese attitude" consists here of constant self-improvement and staying up to date with the current encounters on your own, otherwise you will be shunned when you don't.
The JP community got even a blacklist of PUG players running, so they aren't pulling any punches either when it comes to measuring the performance of each individual.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They are bad, though. They're often abused and exploited as a means of harassing players. A mentor system that encourages players to help out other players is much, much more useful than a system that allows people to stand back and screech about how amazing their DPS is whilst badmouthing anything that doesn't fit their overly bloated standards.


You need only look at MMO's such as WoW to see why DPS meters aren't a pleasant affair. This is, thankfully, also an MMO that has a very 'Japanese' attitude about player interaction. Luckily for those who 'cannot live' without a DPS meter there's plenty of MMO's catered to their tastes out there at the moment. :)

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I am fairly certain the negative 'harassment' type occurrences happen way less than the positive occurrences. This is just from personal experience among various MMO's, but I've rarely seen negative chat in regards to a parser - and I've see plenty of positive ones. Further, to suggest that FFXIV is currently free of harassment would be short-sighted. I don't think parsers cause this sort of behaviour, but are just used as a tool by both sides.

Person A in game without parser, attempts to improve but doesn't know if its working well.
Person A in game with parser, attempts to improve and sees how their numbers change as they level up. Upon max level are a much more competent player.

Person B in game without parser, yells at everyone else for making them fail. Exclaims that they know what they are doing and everyone on the server is holding them back. Proceeds to use insults at everyone, and randomly blames team members such as the heals or tanks.
Person B in game with parser, yells at a particular person for making them fail. Exclaims that this one person is pulling subpar numbers and proceeds to insult this person.
Person B in game with parser, realizes that (s)he is in fact the person pulling the crappy DPS. Screams at everyone else anyway and leaves.

In other words, the parser doesn't cause people to be negative. They will be that way anyway. The parser is simply a tool used differently by different people.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A mentor system that encourages players to help out other players is much, much more useful than a system that allows people to stand back and screech about how amazing their DPS is whilst badmouthing anything that doesn't fit their overly bloated standards.

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A mentor system can work, but in order for it to be a reliable tool there needs to be some way of guaranteeing that the mentor is proficient, both in terms of their own capabilities and how well they can impart that knowledge to others.

The mentor system we're getting, on the other hand, just guarantees that the mentor has spent a lot of time playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

A mentor system can work, but in order for it to be a reliable tool there needs to be some way of guaranteeing that the mentor is proficient, both in terms of their own capabilities and how well they can impart that knowledge to others.

The mentor system we're getting, on the other hand, just guarantees that the mentor has spent a lot of time playing the game.

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Indeed. They could even have used the Sea-Sky-Stone or whatever it is called as a means to test mentors. They could have added an enmity generating/damage mitigation run, a high outgoing heals/mp management run and a DPS run. Then you'd need to perform well in all 3 to gain an achievement which would be a requirement to become a mentor.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i dont think the dummy / training room is wasted resources , however i think that Lord of vermillions and the new pvp systems are wasted resourices and time ...to something ppl will play on the 1 day and never touch again , training room will be the same for lots of ppl , but if that room helps 1 of every 100 players i would be more than happy.

Diadem could have been awesome....but.... :(

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Dude I and some people from the pvp ls I am in are super hyped. I/we love pvp in this game and are really looking forward to a proper arena

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

No please not another "Sightseeing Log" 2.28, i do not like to stay in dungeon and wait for the correct weather just to pass a door!

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Huh? What the heck are you talking about? I mentioned no such thing. As for the rest of your comment, I said use the mechanics, not use the mini-game itself.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

They are bad, though

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Not the point I am making. There are pros and cons to a parser, absolutely, but just commenting "they are bad", as the comment I referred to did, (or conversely they are good) and nothing else, is meaningless.

My opinion is that there should be a group parser, and IF it is abused, then of course action be taken against those people. But to deny it to all ps4 players in case it is abused is a shame

I've seen enough of these threads to know though, that those against a parser are absolutely adamant that their dps number be kept secret, from PS4 players at least, and do not change their opinion easily

I still can't understand why so many people are against a DPS meter, it's one of the best ways to improve towards endgame.
Afraid of the possibilites regarding player harassment? Make it so that you can turn it off, something in options like "Allow/Deny other players to see my DPS meter". Afraid that even then players can harass other players? ("why dont you show ur dps meter n00b"). Report them for player harassment.

If SE actively punish players for that it won't be a problem (or will be a very rare problem), but i guess that's more work for them. Or just release a damn addon API, like WoW has, allowing not only DPS meter in but countless other, useful, little things.

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Originally Posted by azlewood

dps meters are dumb, and unintentionally encourage negative behavior in players.

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As a tank or healer, there's not much that I find more disheartening than to go into an instance and push my limits at my job only to see that we're hitting an enrage mechanic because the DPS are subpar. I've actually had parties ask me to switch from Paladin to Warrior in Thordan EX because of under-performing DPS. I've gone into Alexander floor 2 and out-damaged DPS players as a Scholar. I think many of our DPS players simply don't have any basis for comparison, so they think they're doing fine when the reality is that they're being carried through content by stronger players. I think that reality is going to be a slap in the face for many.

DPS meters are tools. Nothing more and nothing less. There will always be stupid people that misuse tools no matter whether you're talking about parsers or power drills, but that doesn't mean that we should disallow them. Used correctly, they are extremely useful.