The Illusion of Choice

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Huh? focusing on one at a time is a choice, not a limitation.

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Your effectiveness is limited, at end game, by the weekly caps on tomestones and gear acquisition from raids. You can "choose" to gear up multiple jobs via these routes, but if you do so you're intentionally making a conscious decision to be less effective than someone who does focuses on a single job.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Plus there is the matter of, for example, strength stat allocation, versus vit stat allocation on tanks.

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That was the only real choice (with pros and cons to both options) to be made with regards to stats. Every other job has only one realistic option for almost all situations. It's also likely going to cease being a real choice in 3.2.

Your whole post almost reads like your talking about a different game entirely.

The only stuff in the entire game that isn't just auto-pilot super easy is the end game content and that content it is tuned to a point where 100 more dps from a player is the difference between success and loss

and what's all this nonsense about specs? the only stuff you can customize at all is the cross-class skills and most jobs are hard pressed to find 5 skills that even provide a benefit. Everyone has full access to their skills, the difference between the dragoon that does incredible aoe dps and the one that barely does decent single target is one is choosing to use the tools given him while the other is just being lazy.

and fire and ice mages? there is no such thing... Ice only exists as a downtime mechanic to regulate mage damage over time. The fire and ice are just skins to look thematic and pretty for a build up/discharge mechanic. If you come across an "ice mage" he will be doing 300-400dps at the very best
And that's true for every class too, aside from optimizations on where to use cooldowns and apply buffs/debuffs the actual basic damage rotations are limited to one for single target and one for aoe. The only one I can even think of that has variance is a bard can choose to just dump all his tp straight into aoe or DoT up the whole pack of mobs for a bunch of free ocd rain of death procs

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Crossclass abilities come to mind. Potency and behavior changes on multiple crossclass abilities based on the job using them.

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Cross classing doesn't really fill this niche, in my opinion. It's more similar to how SMN and SCH work, where they have the same base, but venture off to a DPS and healer build.

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Huh? focusing on one at a time is a choice, not a limitation. I had every class to 30 before I focused one to 50, and I had EVERY doh class to 49 before I pushed them each to 50. As for job locks in instances, many people still swap out gear before a boss if it suits a smoother encounter. Plus there is the matter of, for example, strength stat allocation, versus vit stat allocation on tanks.

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No the limitation is set by the game due to max tomestone weekly caps, and gear drops from raids. Let's say 3.2 launches and I main SMN. I upgrade my weapon and/or chest piece in the first few weeks with tomestones of lore. Then we find out that BLM is actually better for the raid, and I should swap. Instead of just swapping my spec, I now need to spend several more weeks getting tomestones to gear that to be acceptable in the encounter. Even if I did swap to BLM and start gearing that up and now my BLM Is 235 ilvl and my SMN is 212, and we get to A8S and realize that SMN is the better choice here due to the better AoE. Yet I am 20 ilvls behind and it will take months for it to catch up. That is what I mean by you can only gear one job TO MAX at a time

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Well sure, so long as you ignore the benefits of unlocking new crossclass abilities, ease of accessing certain df queues, stat allocation, crafting/melding gear into specific stats for specific needs, better understanding other party roles and how they interact with your own (aka skill buiding).

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I am not ignoring benefits, those are different things. That is like saying, I want vanilla ice cream and you say well sure if you ignore the fact that they give ice creams in cones. I mean, great, but that's not the same thing. (Yes I love food analogies, sue me).

Cross class abilities would be more in line with what I was talking about if you had many many more to choose from, so that you could create different builds - but as it is, you can't.
DF Queues, unsure how this is related. Care to elaborate?
Stat allocation - yes this would be awesome if there was a reason to put your stats in anything other than the only stat that affects you (excluding putting 1-3 PIE in for BLM and STR/VIT for tanks)
Crafted gear is useless
Materia Melding is a step in the customization direction, but the system needs an overhaul for it to be any good

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Your whole post almost reads like your talking about a different game entirely.

The only stuff in the entire game that isn't just auto-pilot super easy is the end game content and that content it is tuned to a point where 100 more dps from a player is the difference between success and loss

and what's all this nonsense about specs? the only stuff you can customize at all is the cross-class skills and most jobs are hard pressed to find 5 skills that even provide a benefit. Everyone has full access to their skills, the difference between the dragoon that does incredible aoe dps and the one that barely does decent single target is one is choosing to use the tools given him while the other is just being lazy.

and fire and ice mages? there is no such thing... Ice only exists as a downtime mechanic to regulate mage damage over time. The fire and ice are just skins to look thematic and pretty for a build up/discharge mechanic. If you come across an "ice mage" he will be doing 300-400dps at the very best
And that's true for every class too, aside from optimizations on where to use cooldowns and apply buffs/debuffs the actual basic damage rotations are limited to one for single target and one for aoe. The only one I can even think of that has variance is a bard can choose to just dump all his tp straight into aoe or DoT up the whole pack of mobs for a bunch of free ocd rain of death procs

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Indeed, I am talking about the argument of "Illusion of Choice" used against suggestions for specs and stat allocation. I am not suggesting any of this is currently in the game, just that it should be in the game.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Your whole post almost reads like your talking about a different game entirely.

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You didn't comprehend the post at all, then. They aren't saying that the game is like this, but rather arguing that the common argument against providing customization (that the choice is only an "illusion") isn't a good one because the choice can still be engaging even if there's a "best" build.

Overall a good idea OP and I do wish this game had more choice instead of being locked into the single specific meta for each class or else be branded as bad. I think people aren't reading your post all the way through and just latching onto this whole Ice Mage thing for....some....reason. This game would be way more enjoyable for me if classes like the BLM could use (for example) their ice spells and be more of an ice mage, or a thunder mage. (I'm not saying people should do that now, I'm talking about if an ice mage and thunder mage were actually on par with fire mages!!!) I was very disappointed in the whole BLM mechanic for this game, with ice and thunder spells only being filler moves and fire being the only real means of dps. I wanna throw out some Thundaga or Blizzaga like in FF Tactics Advance and be able to do some serious damage. THM was the class I started the game as because of my nostalgia for the old games but after seeing how its spells worked I got so pissed I stopped playing it at around level 11 and didn't go back to it for over a year. I doubt they will ever give us more choice in regards to the way classes work though because the entire system would have to be re-balanced.

Don't listen to the naysayers. :)

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Originally Posted by Ibi

if you do so you're intentionally making a conscious decision to be less effective than someone who does focuses on a single job.

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Ehnn, not in every case.

For example, leveling DoH via Ehcatl dailies. WAY more efficient when the xp is applied to lower levels. Each time you level the xp efficiency (% of a level per quest completion) wanes. So if you apply xp evenly, you will get them all in range of leve leveling wayyyyy faster than if you focus on one class at a time.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Cross classing doesn't really fill this niche, in my opinion. It's more similar to how SMN and SCH work, where they have the same base, but venture off to a DPS and healer build.

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So when a drk build chooses not to level gladiator or marauder, they are still a perfectly functional tank? Anyways... Abilities from similar classes are added forms of customization which are not just useful, but often necessary.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

No the limitation is set by the game due to max tomestone weekly caps, and gear drops from raids. Let's say 3.2 launches and I main SMN. I upgrade my weapon and/or chest piece in the first few weeks with tomestones of lore. Then we find out that BLM is actually better for the raid, and I should swap. Instead of just swapping my spec, I now need to spend several more weeks getting tomestones to gear that to be acceptable in the encounter. Even if I did swap to BLM and start gearing that up and now my BLM Is 235 ilvl and my SMN is 212, and we get to A8S and realize that SMN is the better choice here due to the better AoE. Yet I am 20 ilvls behind and it will take months for it to catch up. That is what I mean by you can only gear one job TO MAX at a time

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Both are casters. Both can use "of casting" gear freely between them, the only hold off is weapon, which doesn't take long to earn a secondary.
and best is great, but until you get the best, 2nd or 3rd best is still a perfectly good option. The game is not designed to REQUIRE cookiecutter parties.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Cross class abilities would be more in line with what I was talking about if you had many many more to choose from, so that you could create different builds - but as it is, you can't.

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I've seen MRD players that can rival WARs, and have MANY more crossclass abilities at their disposal. Just because you don't like to play with the base classes doesn't mean that they don't have merit.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

DF Queues, unsure how this is related. Care to elaborate?

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Purely a layer of convenience. You have more builds, you can have a short queue by entering as the "job in need". And get a bonus set of tomes, xp etc.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Crafted gear is useless

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Yes, i'm sure all those parties that cleared A3S and A4S loooong before they could gear up from tomes and lockouts, im sure they agree. wait. They took full advantage of heavy meld builds in i180 gear, because it resulted in more efficient stat allocation, even over the eso gear people could already access. So there's that. 'utterly useless'. ha...

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

It really couldn't be more obvious that what you 'want'... already exists, and has existed since patch 1.18...

Open your eyes a little and look at the FFXIV job system from a different angle.

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I don't know how people don't seem the get this. "I've played other mmos woth different specs and talent trees and it worked". Those games are like wow, diablo, etc. 1 class per avatar/toon. So you can make a char, level pld, and swap between healer spec pld, tank spec pld, and dps spec pld. And that is the only things that toon will EVER be. If pld was just a tank and you had to create an entirely new toon, level through MSQ, unlock every area/dungeon again, earn reputation all over and all that crap it would suck. So they give each class specs to be flexible without starting over.

11 and 14 don't have pld with tank, dps, and heal specs. They just let you play 3 tabk specs (war. Pld, drk), 3 heal specs (ast, whm, sch), a burst mage, a dot/pet mage, a ranged support spec, a ranged pet support spec, etc, etc all on 1 toon.

So quit whining that pld doesn't have a healer spec. You have 3 healer specs. They have a green icon. Go play them.

Jobs serve the function of specs in ffxi and ffxiv.

WE ALREADY HAVE SPECS. They just have a different name.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

WE ALREADY HAVE SPECS. They just have a different name.

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No, we don't. Nothing in those other games prevents you from *also* playing every class (unless there are character limits, but those are rare). Being able to play the other classes in, say, WoW, gives you just as much customization as we currently have in FFXIV, even before you consider the inclusion of talents and specializations.

And as mentioned, FFXI also has customization, despite also letting you play every class on one character.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

No, we don't. Nothing in those other games prevents you from *also* playing every class (unless there are character limits, but those are rare). Being able to play the other classes in, say, WoW, gives you just as much customization as we currently have in FFXIV, even before you consider the inclusion of talents and specializations.

And as mentioned, FFXI also has customization, despite also letting you play every class on one character.

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Did you miss the part where you have to start from scratch to play a new class in other games? if course because it doesn't support your idea. Having to repeat all the banal "setup" stuff over and over is a big investment just to play another spec. That is why games like wow even have specs so that you can still try different playstyle and roles without repeating all that. Jobs in 14 serve that function of changing roles and playstyle without starting 9ver. Even in wow there are different gear sets for each jobs specs so you still need to collect gear for a new role just as a mnk needs to get gear to play a tank here.

And ffxi having customization is the paramount example of the illusion of choice idea. You could gear up to he a xbow thf if you thought it was cool. But it's performance was poor so it wasn't a thing. Pvp, as with most every game is the only place you can really do things outside the box of a job. PvE is forever trapped in the illusion. You could spend a kingdom for a kclub melee whm. You know what you could do with that? Solo trash mobs and pvp. You want to be a healer drg with your wyvern? Works on solo trash and pvp. Want to be a dps pld? Solo trash ad pvp.

You can do whatever you want on trash solo content and pvp. You can't for content that has a smidgen of difficulty.

Nobody has addressed my point:

Nothing stops me from putting VIT on my SCH for PvP. We CAN spec out our characters in different ways already. It's just that all the content punishes this. If there was a raid that required a vit healer build, or an acc healer build, with minimum mind required to clear, those builds would materialize.

We don't need a new system, we have a system, we need more diverse raids to encourage variety within the system. At least, if this concept is something you're FOR you would want that.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

We don't need a new system, we have a system, we need more diverse raids to encourage variety within the system. At least, if this concept is something you're FOR you would want that.

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But stats have such a lack of depth, what kind of content would they create that you would need different stats for? They don't do anything unique or different...it pretty much boils down to which stat is weighted the heaviest for your job and have you maxed it yet....

Stats in FFXIV are too job/role specific to the point where you suffer if you don't max your primary one. A Dragoon has no use for Mind, Piety, Int, Dexterity, etc because they legitimately do absolutely nothing for that job...because we have a system that is limiting. There's no raid mechanic that will make any of those stats more useful for a job that can't even use them.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Ehnn, not in every case.

For example, leveling DoH via Ehcatl dailies. WAY more efficient when the xp is applied to lower levels. Each time you level the xp efficiency (% of a level per quest completion) wanes. So if you apply xp evenly, you will get them all in range of leve leveling wayyyyy faster than if you focus on one class at a time.

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The start of the quote, that you've cut off, said "Your effectiveness is limited, at end game, by the weekly caps on tomestones and gear acquisition from raids."

I'm not sure how leveling DoH via Ehcatl dailies is related to that.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

But stats have such a lack of depth, what kind of content would they create that you would need different stats for? They don't do anything unique or different...it pretty much boils down to which stat is weighted the heaviest for your job and have you maxed it yet....

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Disagree. As I've said, I stack VIT on my healer for PvP. It's the widely accepted practice, actually. Different context, different rules.

In PvE, I could see a boss that has a move that does xxxxx unavoidable damage to (dps or healer, whichever), which can only be survived by having vit.
Most bosses have an accuracy cap, but what if it was so high, other classes had to stack aiming to hit?
Or a boss that slows so much that sks/sps is required to meet checks?
Or a boss which absorbs mp at a rate at which piety is a necessity.
Of course, these bosses would obviously have to have lower healing and DPS checks, but it's totally possible within the system we have already.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Nobody has addressed my point:

Nothing stops me from putting VIT on my SCH for PvP. We CAN spec out our characters in different ways already. It's just that all the content punishes this. If there was a raid that required a vit healer build, or an acc healer build, with minimum mind required to clear, those builds would materialize.

We don't need a new system, we have a system, we need more diverse raids to encourage variety within the system. At least, if this concept is something you're FOR you would want that.

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T5 had that to survive fireballs, T11 had that to survive Nerve Gas. you can put on more VIT for those when your iLv was low. you also wanted healers to meld Acc to meet DPS for some checks when iLv was low.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Disagree. As I've said, I stack VIT on my healer for PvP. It's the widely accepted practice, actually. Different context, different rules.

In PvE, I could see a boss that has a move that does xxxxx unavoidable damage to (dps or healer, whichever), which can only be survived by having vit.
Most bosses have an accuracy cap, but what if it was so high, other classes had to stack aiming to hit?
Or a boss that slows so much that sks/sps is required to meet checks?
Or a boss which absorbs mp at a rate at which piety is a necessity.
Of course, these bosses would obviously have to have lower healing and DPS checks, but it's totally possible within the system we have already.

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I understand what you're saying, but none of that actually promotes diversity or interesting gameplay elements. It's still a matter of just having the right amount of the right stat to get the job done. If a boss were to have an astronomical Accuracy requirement, but a lower DPS check, then every tank and DPS would just need to stack accuracy. For a boss that slows everyone, then everyone would have to stack Skill/Spell speed. That does nothing for role or stat diversity, all it does is make that one fight a pain in the ass if you don't have the right accessories. It's basically another illusion of choice. Sure, it's content that needs a different stat for a different strategy, but if the content requires it for completion, what choice is there?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

T5 had that to survive fireballs, T11 had that to survive Nerve Gas. you can put on more VIT for those when your iLv was low. you also wanted healers to meld Acc to meet DPS for some checks when iLv was low.

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Awesome, we need more of that.

Done.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Nobody has addressed my point:

Nothing stops me from putting VIT on my SCH for PvP. We CAN spec out our characters in different ways already.

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Here's the full extent of meaningful (i.e. not intentionally making a choice that outright reduces your effectiveness) "spec" choices currently available in the game:

1. Any class choosing between VIT vs STR/DEX/MND/INT with their bonus points and accessories.
2. Healers choosing to use crafted gear, melded with accuracy, if their native gear does not provide enough.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

It's just that all the content punishes this. If there was a raid that required a vit healer build, or an acc healer build, with minimum mind required to clear, those builds would materialize.

We don't need a new system, we have a system, we need more diverse raids to encourage variety within the system. At least, if this concept is something you're FOR you would want that.

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But the system as it currently exists doesn't provide for any kind of diversity that's going to encourage any kind of variety.

There's nothing you can do with an encounter that's going to ever make, say, a monk want DEX, MND, INT, Parry, or Spell Speed. None of those stats do anything for them. It's not possible to get enough resistance through elemental materia to noticeably reduce incoming damage, and forcing them to wear VIT gear (or adding slashing/piercing/blunt resistance gear and forcing them to wear that) isn't actually introducing any kind of variety; you just hit the mark necessary to survive then go back to ignoring them.

So that leaves STR, Determination, Critical Hit Rate, and Skill Speed. I suppose you could have something like a boss that takes more damage from critical hits, so that critical is now more desirable, but that's still not going to introduce variety, because now you just get as much Critical Hit Rate as you can.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

In PvE, I could see a boss that has a move that does xxxxx unavoidable damage to (dps or healer, whichever), which can only be survived by having vit.

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All DPS and healers now stack sufficient VIT to survive the attack.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Most bosses have an accuracy cap, but what if it was so high, other classes had to stack aiming to hit?

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All DPS and tanks now stack sufficient accuracy to hit the boss.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Or a boss that slows so much that sks/sps is required to meet checks?

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All DPS and tanks now stack sufficient skill speed to meet the check.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Or a boss which absorbs mp at a rate at which piety is a necessity.

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All MP-using jobs now stack sufficient Piety to have sufficient MP to make it through the fight.

Not a single one of these introduces any diversity or choice, they just change which stat everyone has to stack.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Did you miss the part where you have to start from scratch to play a new class in other games?

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Of course I didn't, why are you talking to me like I'm an idiot?

I didn't bring it up because it's not especially difficult to level an alt in, say, WoW. You can send your characters gear and money, and they even have Bind on Account Heirloom gear that makes it easier to level alt classes. Yes, not everything carries over—but not everything carries over in FFXIV, either. In WoW, you can get weekly currencies for all of your classes, so you can actually have multiple classes with the highest level of gear if you so choose—you can't do that in FFXIV because you're limited to spending tomestones and getting drops from locked out content on one class per week.

Yes, you have to start from scratch to a degree if you level a new class in another game, but it still doesn't make the choices we have in FFXIV particularly engaging compared to other games, which do let you play other classes (even if it's slightly more difficult to do so) and they have customization options on top of that.

As for FFXI, I wasn't talking so much about weapon choice so much as I was gear choices (there were actually reasons to use a variety of pieces for various things) but more than that I was talking about the post-level cap customization in Merit and Job Points. Merit Points and Job points are similar in many ways to talent point systems in other games. There were elements of choice in those systems that we don't have here despite the job system being largely the same.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

So that leaves STR, Determination, Critical Hit Rate, and Skill Speed. I suppose you could have something like a boss that takes more damage from critical hits, so that critical is now more desirable, but that's still not going to introduce variety, because now you just get as much Critical Hit Rate as you can.

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Each job has a few things that are worth something to them.Not every job is going to want every stat and it's unrealistic to expect such a thing. Then we would have the opposite of diversity because everyone would be using everything.

Of the stats that are meaningful to a job, you absolutely can make fights to encourage those builds. They have done it. They could do it again. And how exactly is that not diversity? In one fight you need crit, the next you need Skill Speed, or whatever. You meld your materia or farm your different accs. Something that changes with the fight and is easy to adjust as necessary. Maybe that's not what YOU mean by diversity, but it seems to be what the OP wants.

The only thing I might request that would require development is adjusting the weights and effectiveness of the stats to where the differences were really noticeable. They've adjusted stuff like that in the past (STR -> VIT tanks anyone?) so I don't see why they couldn't do it again.

BTW, honestly I like the game as it is. It's a little linear gear/progression wise, but the gameplay is fun enough so I don't really have anything to complain about.

ETA: Bold. After reading your comments re: my post, it's clear you missed the point. OP asked for different builds for different fights that could easily be flipped around after the fight was over. You still haven't defined what YOU mean by variety/diversity which is clearly something different from the OP.

If it's a permanent adjustment on the stats, see my fire/ice/thunder mage analogy on page three. It doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Some people don't seem to understand.. the Job IS the equivalent of a talent tree build.

You roll 'tank'. But you want to do a lot of dps, at the sacrifice of defense. You choose the WAR build. You want lots of defense at a cost of dps? PLD. A balance/hybrid between the two? DRK build.

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Let's use WoW as an example, because it's well known, vs. FFXIV.

There are 13 battle jobs in FFXIV. There are 11 classes in WoW at last count. On the surface, you might think FFXIV has more options than WoW, but each of those 11 classes in WoW have three vastly different ways to play them, which really bring the number of classes up to 33.

In FFXIV all races are identical in terms of gameplay. The stat differences are so minor as to be nonexistant. In WoW there are 13 races with vastly different stats, unique traits, unique abilities that can only be found with that race.

With just these two choices (race and class) the total possible gameplay builds for FFXIV are 13 (because again, race doesn't effect your gameplay in any significant way. It is a cosmetic choice only). The total possible gameplay builds WoW are 429.

WoW also has a talent system that, every 15 levels lets you pick between one of three talents which can change how your abilities work significantly. There are 7 layers of these choices, each with three options. Let's just assume there was only one layer. That brings the possible gameplay builds for WoW up to 1287. Once you factor in all 7 layers? 938,223 different gameplay builds.

So FFXIV has 13 different ways to Battle and WoW has almost 1,000,000. (Now mind you, if my math is wrong I wouldn't be surprised. Feel free to chime in if it is. I never was very good at balancing the numbers.) Of course WoW also has more interesting stats on its gear and abilities and procs while FFXIV gear has stats so simple I barely even take them into account.

Jobs are a choice yes, but you can't compare that one choice in gameplay to what is offered by other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

BTW, honestly I like the game as it is. It's a little linear gear/progression wise, but the gameplay is fun enough so I don't really have anything to complain about.

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And I want to add, even though I want more customization, I still love this game and I'm not going anywhere either. I just think it could do more to be a bit more interesting and varied. Being able to differentiate yourself from players who play the same class as you is fun for many players.

The difference between crafting and having builds is if you don't like crafting you don't have to craft. If you don't like having to mess around with builds you still have to mess around with builds. Screwing around with builds really annoys me. I like to be about to play something without relying on a spread sheet and a calculator to figure out what works. If I need to rely on third party sites to figure out the build I need then that is worse. In my view if the game build system is complicated enough that you cant intuitively figure out what you need for a reliable build in the game itself without having to resort to google then the game is broken.

Using the OP's analogy, its like going to a grocery store and having a random set of ingredients you have feed into a machine to make the cheese but due to the number of options the store lacks a reliable way of knowing if the cheese you want is what you will get when it comes out of the machine meaning you have to on line and research websites other people have made just to try and maybe get the cheese you want. If I had to do that I would just go to a shop where I could just buy the one variety of cheese.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

In my view if the game build system is complicated enough that you cant intuitively figure out what you need for a reliable build in the game itself without having to resort to google then the game is broken.

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Nothing says it really needs to be that complicated, though. The Merit Points system in FFXI only gave you a handful of points to play with—you typically ended up choosing three ability adjustments (such as X Ability has a lower cooldown) and a couple of new unique abilities. You didn't really need to outside of the game at all to make that call. Most of them came down to personal preference or to what sort of content you did most (though there were a few options that were heavily favored for some classes, like Meditate enhancement for Samurai).

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I understand what you're saying, but none of that actually promotes diversity or interesting gameplay elements. It's still a matter of just having the right amount of the right stat to get the job done. If a boss were to have an astronomical Accuracy requirement, but a lower DPS check, then every tank and DPS would just need to stack accuracy. For a boss that slows everyone, then everyone would have to stack Skill/Spell speed. That does nothing for role or stat diversity, all it does is make that one fight a pain in the ass if you don't have the right accessories. It's basically another illusion of choice. Sure, it's content that needs a different stat for a different strategy, but if the content requires it for completion, what choice is there?

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Ding ding ding!

a fight vs a ifrit that makes tanks wear fire resist gear to win isn't choice. Fighting ifrit and making blm do an imaginary "ice spec" build isn't choice. It's a gear hoop to jump through to complete content. In ffxi in a fight vs skeletons (they took half damage from piercing damage and 25% more from blunt staff damage), a dragoon pulling out a staff instead of a spear wasn't some magical viable fun choice.

These kinds of 'variations' in gameplay don't promote choice. They just promote "here's a new problem. Solve for X. There's still a right answer". That's not choice. Choice implies equivalent but asymmetrical options. But the amount of balance work required to achieve that is really just absurd and impractical. If each job had 3 specs, we're talking 39 classes to balance in groups of 8. The number of party compositions that every piece of new content would have to account for would instantly Baloon astronomically. You don't think that with that many moving parts, a couple compositions that synergize wouldn't rise above the rest creating job and class exclusion lime this game has never seen? It will. There are only 2 ways this method has ever turned out in history. Specs are balanced, but homogenized and boring, or they are interesting and fun but wildly unbalanced with rampant exclusion or preference as the balance pendulum swings back and forth over patches.

You can't have huge variety of classes and specs everywhere without homogenezation or unbalance. There are to many variables to have 1 piece of content somehow be equally friendly to an exponential rise in class/spec variety.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

Let's use WoW as an example, because it's well known, vs. FFXIV.

There are 13 battle jobs in FFXIV. There are 11 classes in WoW at last count.

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Still missing my point, so I'll elaborate.

In Battlecraft, there are multiple roles, which run hierarchically.


A. Melee
-----1. Melee DPS
----------a. DRG
----------b. MNK
----------c. NIN
-----2. Melee Tank
----------a. WAR
----------b. PLD
----------c. DRK
B. Ranged
-----1. Ranged Noncaster
----------a. BRD
----------b. MCH
-----2. Ranged Caster
----------a. BLM
----------b. SMN
-----3. Ranged Healer
----------a. WHM
----------b. SCH
----------c. AST

Melee DPS
Melee Tank
Ranged Noncaster
Ranged Caster
Ranged Healer

So 5 roles. Each with at least two of their own specific builds, or jobs.
5 is a fair starting point, considering the age of the MMO.

What else could be added? plenty.

Crowd control comes to mind. Along with several hybrid roles, which the devs have hinted at on a number of occasions.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Still missing my point, so I'll elaborate.

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I see the one point you're making (within the roles offered there are multiple classes to choose from to fill that role. So there is customization within that role), but I don't think I understand how that point is related to the topic of this thread. I might be missing something obvious here, so please feel free to spell it out simply for me. I'm a simpleton.

Every other MMO also has roles and classes that fit into them, but in addition to that they have so many more meaningful choices. I'd like to see, at least some similar meaningful choices added to FFXIV.

The way the hierarchy is, differs from game to game.


Take WoW Paladin, for example.
3 trees, Apart from hybridizing abilities (potentially gimping your overall potential) you are going to get unique abilities taking any path.

Take FFXIV Tank, for example.
2 trees (WAR, PLD) plus a hybrid 3rd tree (DRK). Apart from crossclass abilities you are going to get unique abilities taking any path.

If you base the lowest level of the hierarchy at the abilities you earn and work up from there, you can see that they are named differently, are leveled differently but have the same core division of features.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The way the hierarchy is, differs from game to game.

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I see what you're saying, but even if the options in FFXIV's job system can be compared with the options in WoW's job/tree system it's still only that one choice. WoW (and many other MMORPG) offers choices upon choices upon choices that all lead to many thousands of branching builds that differentiate characters from one another. FFXIV just offers the one choice, with no other additional layers.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The way the hierarchy is, differs from game to game

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I understand what you're saying, but even if each job is already a "branch" of each role, all of those jobs are carbon copies of one another. Every job is played identically in regard to abilities, play style and stats with no opportunity for customization or diversity. Even cross-class abilities are so severely limited that there's almost no point in chosing them for yourself, they might as well be automatically set.....it's a false sense of customization.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, it could be seen that the multiple jobs are that multiple choice, considering your character can be sufficient in one without ever permently taking away from another. Whether or not that's done effectively is a different question if you look at the likes of war, drg, and mch/brd

They could do something like a Blm that primarily uses blizzard to deal their damage via mechanics and ability synergy, fire for raw, nuke and crit oriented, or thunder for DoT or something . But in its current state, Blm is not designed around that, but instead you see what we have with umbral/astral being the primary gimmick.

For example, at level 50 you could choose to pick up an ability that replaces enochian with something like rolling thunder; it gives you a stack of Rt for every thunder I you cast, and it stacks a thunder debuff for every hit ( but does not refresh with each use). Each stack of Rt increases cast speed of thunders, the initial overall potency, and mana cost. You can use thunder in detonate the stacks into an aoe explosion, or thunder iii to implode the stack on the single target. Using any other ability will remove Rt, and using Rt removes your current astral/umbral.

1000 chars and no ability to edit on phone...

You keep the mana regen gimmick of astral/umbral intact, but you focus on something different to deal your damage, how many stacks can you afford to get on a single target without running yourself dry to cast a blizzard 3 afterwards or dropping rolling thunder, versus enochian where you do a similiar mechanic in small bursts while maintaining astral.

You can play how you want but in some groups you will be kicked if your "build" isn't the standard.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

You can play how you want but in some groups you will be kicked if your "build" isn't the standard.

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In cutting edge progression, sure but that's in an environment where it's a group decision to perform at max capability anyway. What you're saying isn't any different from people who kick you from a3n farm parties because you don't have a i200 weapon. If they're kicking you for having a different build or even job, it's probably not a group that shares the same mindset with you to begin with.

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We got several posts from players who wanted to be able to customize not only their character's appearance but also their skills and equipment for a particular job so that they could show some more individuality. This is a topic we've seen come up since the initial release of A Realm Reborn.

Yoshida: Right. So, if we did something like add mode A and mode B for dragoon, eventually people on the internet would examine them and choose which one was stronger. Then, when we created new content, the content would have to be based on whatever was strongest. There would be a lot of discussion about the job states like "that job is too strong" or "that job is too weak" and people would always choose what they felt was best. That's not to say a skill system like that would be negative, but the armoury system itself already allows you to play all of the different jobs. Since we already have that system in place, I'm not expecting that we'll make branches for jobs for the time being.

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Figured this was relevant. Source

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Figured this was relevant. Source

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Indeed, I read that interview and felt his answer was very unjust and short sighted, as argued against in my original post.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

-snip-

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What you're basically saying is that FFXIV still has far fewer ways to make choices for its players than other MMOs, though. Let's continue with the WoW example so I can demonstrate:

During its first expansion (which is a fair point of comparison since FFXIV is in its first expansion as well), WoW had 8 classes (Warrior, Paladin, Priest, Druid, Rogue, Hunter, Mage, Warlock). Each of those classes had three Specializations, for a basic total of 24 "options" for your character to be. Let's break them down into roles the way you did for FFXIV's classes:

• 3 Tanks (Protection Warrior, Protection Paladin, Feral Druid)
• 7 Melee DPS (Arms Warrior, Fury Warrior, Retribution Paladin, Assassination Rogue, Combat Rogue, Subtlety Rogue, Feral Druid)
• 3 Physical Ranged DPS (Beastmastery Hunter, Marksmanship Hunter, Survival Hunter)
• 8 Magical Ranged DPS (Arcane Mage, Fire Mage, Ice Mage, Affliction Warlock, Demonology Warlock, Shadow Warlock, Shadow Priest, Balance Druid)
• 4 Healers (Holy Priest, Discipline Priest, Holy Paladin, Restoration Druid)

That's a far more varied spread of options to answer the question "what kind of character am I?" than is presently available in FFXIV—more than twice the options in fact. Even within various specializations, players had some choices—Arms Warriors could focus on a particular type of Two-Handed Weapon, for instance, or Subtlety Rogues (in this era, at least) had a choice between Swords or Daggers, which changed their playstyle. There were other options as well (most Specializations had 2 or 3 Talent Choice that were "free," that came down to player preference). Hybrid specializations were also possible for some classes (usually the classes that were confined to one single role, like Rogue and Mage). All of this isn't even taking into mind PvP Specializations, which were often different in noticeable ways from PvE Specializations. All in all, the wealth of customization options available to WoW players is far greater than that available to FFXIV players.

Yes, you can play multiple jobs on one character here, but you could also play multiple specs or roll alts in WoW. Switching specializations does have a gold cost, but it was not so prohibitive as to make doing so impossible—it was somewhat comparable to the original cost of Keeper's Hymns for Scholar/Summoner. Even if you remove alts from the equation, WoW characters had at least three Specialization options, which is comparable to an FFXIV character gearing three jobs (which is what you can generally do if you get all your lockout gear for a job every week, before the next raid tier comes out). But when you factor in the customization in the Specializations, WoW characters generally had room to be more unique—that is, they had more opportunities to differentiate themselves from other characters.

In FFXIV, a typical player probably has 3 jobs/roles that they gear up. For jobs that aren't melee DPS, they also get to decide which job in that "role" they want to use, though that does depend somewhat on available gear (which is sometimes job-locked and sometimes not). A WoW character by default has 3 "styles" they choose from as well, and depending on their class, those styles might be in the same or different roles. Within those styles, though, a WoW character makes probably 4 or 5 additional decisions that may not be the same as everyone else's, potentially choosing from a variety of things including weapon type, PvE or PvP focus, survivability, or utility. It's this last part that FFXIV characters don't have any parallel too, and it's this last part that players looking for more customization options are looking for. Being able to play multiple jobs/styles on one character just simply isn't enough when every Ninja (say) is essentially exactly like every other ninja).

WoW would later expand player flexibility when it came to player choices (with the ease of leveling alts, the addition of Dual Specializations, Glyphs, and so on). But right now we're just focusing on Burning Crusade, since it's not particularly fair to compare FFXIV's options to options that were added in WoW's later expansions. It is also relevant to note, however, that the developers of WoW did scale back customization beginning in Cataclysm, as the number of customization options had grown too large.

Because of that, I don't believe it would be a good idea for FFXIV to have an amount of customization comparable to what WoW had during Burning Crusade (or even Wrath of the Lich King, the second expansion). I do think, however, that the game would benefit from some customization additions. It would need to be something small: probably not unlike the Merit Point system for FFXI, but that's for another post.

Post Cap Edit Response
I alluded to this already, but it's correct that many of the Specializations in WoW were far from balanced, and that's ultimately why Blizzard pared down the number of options considerably starting in Cataclysm (personally, I thought they had hit a good point with balance in WotLK, but they disagreed because of PvP, I feel). I don't advocate for FFXIV to have anything approaching that level of choice, and I only brought up WoW to clarify the apparent misconception that the customization options for FFXIV are comparable to other games. They really aren't, and we could stand to have some more. There's absolutely no need to go as far as BC-Era WoW did, but being able to choose 3-5 unique things for each job would go a long way, I think, toward allowing people to feel different from others of the same class while not creating a horrible quagmire for balance.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

for a basic total of 24 "options" for your character to be.

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Of which about a third were unplayable, broken, or clearly inferior to another choice within the same class. Take Discipline Priests. Those became playable as an actual healer in WotLK, the second expansion. Before that, they were the tree you could take some talents from for PVP, and almost no one fully specced Discipline. Plus, as others have pointed out, the constant necessary rebalancing in WoW eventually lead to a FoTM meta because there was always at least one spec that was broken and overpowered, at least back when I played. Compared to that, FFXIV is actually fairly well balanced.

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Of which about a third were unplayable, broken, or clearly inferior to another choice within the same class. Take Discipline Priests. Those became playable as an actual healer in WotLK, the second expansion. Before that, they were the tree you could take some talents from for PVP, and almost no one fully specced Discipline. Plus, as others have pointed out, the constant necessary rebalancing in WoW eventually lead to a FoTM meta because there was always at least one spec that was broken and overpowered, at least back when I played. Compared to that, FFXIV is actually fairly well balanced.

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Yeah I was going to say back then the class balance in WoW was pretty broken and frankly a number of those specs didn't have particularly noteworthy differences. The Rogue specs were very similar. More over back then it was quite a pain to switch between specs. At the very least you had to head back to the class trainer every time you wanted to do it.

Even now the class balance is kind dodgy. There is an interview from last yeah where a dev actually said about the warlock specs 'now its Demonology's turn to be underpowered'.

I also wonder how much additional work in QA extra specs would add to the game. Yoshi P seems to suggest it would basically be like adding another Job. If that's the case either balance or production time could be adversely effected.

Personally I'm not a fan of specs. Item based customisation I'm cool with and perhaps content based sideways progression but I've generally found 'builds' more trouble than they are worth and rarely offer much functional customisation.

As much as I original expected multiple ways to play a Job. We are most likely not going to have that due to the Jobs being set and stone now.

One of the major issues now preventing multiple roles for current Jobs or specialization with Jobs now is that the system been made into set one each Job having 1 type of role and function. While it makes it simple for players to know what they are expected with playing that Job it also limits them on what they can do.

Best players can do now is just pick a job they find to suit them the most.