thank you for Mentor system

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Well strictly speaking the system isn't designed for people focused on premade but instead people working with random other players.

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This is fair enough and I understand why that's the case, though I was more into the aspect of mentoring where you got a special chat for people with questions and all that.

Also it turns out I have 439 comms so... whoops. ( ' - ' )b

Edit: Oh, you need 1 of each of the 3 roles at 60 as well. Don't have that, don't plan on getting it. RIP~

Wait, I have to get a healer to 60?

Oh boy. I apologize in advance for all the players I'm going to kill with my terrible healing...

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

I really, /really/ hope the requirements are account wide and not on a per character basis for mentor status.

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Although I'm not SE, I feel very confident in saying they won't be account wide. SE have always treated different characters as completely separate and no other achievements/items cross over with the exception of the veteran rewards and that's only because you're paying for the service account, not for a specific character.

Sorry but the game is very much designed to do everything on one character (cross class skills!) and you really should be doing it all on the same character and then creating additional characters if you just want to start over. Although I do appreciate the new specialist skills have made it so you can no longer do everything on a single character, they're essentially the only exception.

The requirement of 3 roles at level 60 bothers me as well. While I will qualify (at least from the information given), there's a bit of a gap here: Say you have Paladin, Bard, and White Mage leveled to 60, with required side classes to get soulstones, of course. How exactly could you be a good source of advice for say, a SMN? Tanks and healing roles tend to use similar skill kits, but DPS skills are pretty varied.

All that glitters is not gold.

I've notice the role requirement and has concern me as I've split my roles amongst two characters. I've now started levelling drk on my healer/caster character but whether I need to be an ilevel or anything other than level 60 I'm unsure. Rather not be locked out of content when it seems brilliant as a design.

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Although I'm not SE, I feel very confident in saying they won't be account wide. SE have always treated different characters as completely separate and no other achievements/items cross over with the exception of the veteran rewards and that's only because you're paying for the service account, not for a specific character.

Sorry but the game is very much designed to do everything on one character (cross class skills!) and you really should be doing it all on the same character and then creating additional characters if you just want to start over. Although I do appreciate the new specialist skills have made it so you can no longer do everything on a single character, they're essentially the only exception.

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While I also fear this will be the case. Do note that subscription plans are based on the amount of characters you are allowed to make. So i'll remain hopeful for a while longer.

I actually sort of like the multi class at 60 requirement as it will ensure that Mentors have at least some concept of how the other roles play and I personally feel that sort of knowledge is needed if you're going to consider yourself a Mentor.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I actually sort of like the multi class at 60 requirement as it will ensure that Mentors have at least some concept of how the other roles play and I personally feel that sort of knowledge is needed if you're going to consider yourself a Mentor.

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The only issue with it is that Summoners get Scholar by default, which requires no healing experience.

I do think the Mentor requirements could have been more simple....perhaps a solo 'gatekeeper' trial for each role.

DPS trial - avoid AoE mechanics and meet a DPS check

Tank trial - keep a DPS NPC alive by holding aggro. Stun specific moves, use cooldown to mitigate tank busters, etc.

Healer trial - keep a tank NPC alive

They would need to be very challenging, similar to a Maat from FFXI, to insure that people passing the test actually know what they are doing and we don't have mentors that think it's ok to play a job the lazy way without really making use of the full range of abilities.

Really, it could have been integrated into Stone, Sky, Sea.

I really needed this when I started out tanking. Now I'm going back to where I belong, which is White Mage. >_>

I think they need to rework the prerequisites for DoW/DoM. They basically generalized it instead of creating specific mentors, ex. Tank mentor, Healer mentor and DPS mentor. The requirements are also way too low for veteran players. If anything, the prerequisites should be like this.

Tank Senpai
-2 out of 3 tanks must be level 60
-800+ Commendations
-Achieved at least one "But somebody's gotta do it (tank job)"
-1000 instanced trials and dungeons

Healer Senpai
-2 out of 3 healers must be level 60
-500+ commendations
-Achieved "The Kindness of Strangers IV"
-1000 instanced trials or dungeons

Melee DPS Senpai
-2 out of 3 melee dps must be level 60
-300+ commendations
-Defeat the "Stone, Sky, Sea" training dummies on hardest difficulty.
-1000 instanced trials and dungeons

Ranged DPS Senpai
-2 out of 4 ranged dps must be level 60
-300+ commendations
-Defeat the "Stone, Sky, Sea" training dummies on hardest difficulty
-1000 instanced trials and dungeons

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Originally Posted by Marxam

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I really like this idea. Its structured much better.

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Originally Posted by Youkulm

I really like this idea. Its structured much better.

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The only one I have issue with is "Kindness of Strangers IV". I raise everyone I encounter if I can but there's just nowhere near enough to get that achievement as party & alliance don't count.

As for the DoL/H requirements - why do I need to have a lvl60 crafter to show someone how to gather? My "main" class has arguably always been Miner as it was first to lvl50 (when my ACN was low 30s!) & is something I really enjoy.

I'm unlikely ever get a tank to lvl60 so I guess mentoring will have to stay the same way I do it now.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

The only issue with it is that Summoners get Scholar by default, which requires no healing experience.

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They said it is Achievement based.

For example, there is an Achievement for 300 Commendations, we're going to need that. There is also an Achievement for 1,000 dungeons, raids, or trial runs.

With that in mind, you do not get Summoner and Scholar together by default. You'll need to get the Achievement "Soul Summoner II" for this to count, which makes absolute sense, since that is the only Achievement that ensures you've unlocked all of Summoners skills and suggests you've actually played the Job somewhat (though I wouldn't call the quests a real test). You don't get "Flying Colors II" together with that, you have to actively go out and unlock Scholar to do those quests for that Achievement.

As for why they want people to have everything done... To ensure there are people to explain stuff? We're getting a special chat channel for Mentors, after all. If you separate all the Mentors by role, then given some roles are more popular than others, we're going to end up with, for example, a lot of DPS Mentors and very few Tank Mentors. By saying Mentors need to play both DPS and Tank (and Healer, plus Crafting and Gathering), you ensure that every Mentor is able to at least touch on the subject. I might not be the worlds best Healer, but I've leveled Healers, I can explain the basics and where to get quests/what Classes to level, etc. If I'm the only Mentor online at a given time, I can explain to new players all the roles. If I became a Mentor solely off DPS (or solely off Gathering), there is no reason to assume I'd know anything other than DPS. Any novice Healers/Tanks (or Crafters) would not be able to receive much help from me.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

-Defeat the "Stone, Sky, Sea" training dummies on hardest difficulty.

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Going to have to disagree with this. That isn't what Mentors are about.

Mentors are meant to help out new players. Someone who can help out with the odd instance (having role variety is a massive plus to that), explain the basics like what important quests there are and what other Classes to think about leveling.

A Lv1 Thaumaturge fresh out the opening cutscene isn't even going to know Black Mage is a thing, much less care about its proper rotation. The only help they're going to need is with the odd quest, and what kind of requirements they'll need going forward (level Archer so you can unlock Black Mage at Lv30, for example). They don't need someone explaining Black Mages perfect rotation to them, because they are weeks or months off even unlocking Fire IV. They need someone to explain the basics, not someone to explain the current endgame meta.

Having Lv60 Tank/Healer/DPS Jobs means I can help out in any situation and know how the Job system works. Having plenty of instance runs under my belt ensures I have a basic understanding of most content. Commendations is the weakest requirement, since Tanks/Healers can say nothing and be showered in Commendations, but the Commendation requirement is meant to suggest you're somewhat helpful/friendly.

Mentors are not meant to improve everyones playstyle, they're meant to help out new players. If you want something to improve the plethora of terrible players this game has, I'd suggest making "Stone, Sky, Sea" a MSQ requirement in some way (same way Guildhests ended up in the MSQ?), or at least rewarding. When they said it had no rewards in the Live Letter, I instantly knew it was a failed piece of content. Nobody how needs to use that thing to realize they need to improve their rotation is going to use it, since it is entirely optional. "Stone, Sky, Sea" is the perfect tool for getting people to "git gud", but sadly the developers aren't forcing it on people... You know what would work great? Slap Unidentified items as a reward. Bam. Suddenly Anima weapons are an easy grind if you're good. Relics become less about a dull grind and more about proving you're good. On "Stone, Sky, Sea" you can prove you have what it takes to clear Alexander, for example, and for that you get a Relic. You perhaps can't clear Alexander, because the hardest part of raids in this game isn't the raids themselves, but finding a solid static to work with, but "Stone, Sky, Sea" proves you can push enough DPS to clear Faust 2.0, for example.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

The only one I have issue with is "Kindness of Strangers IV". I raise everyone I encounter if I can but there's just nowhere near enough to get that achievement as party & alliance don't count.

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I agree. Raising random people doesn't really indicate anything about someone's skill as a healer.

There are a lot of people that would be more than capable to help others with a specific role even if they don't have all roles at 60. The reason why they can't be mentors is given in the post I quoted:

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Must have one job from each role (Tank/DPS/Healer) at level 60.
It’s set up in a way so that the player can offer advice for each role.

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So when a noob in a dungeon or out in the world asks a mentor for help with healing, the mentor will have a healer at 60 with 100% certainty. Hopefully the SCH/SMN issue will be dealt with by requiring at least the job quests to be completed.

Marxam's suggestion isn't bad but it got me thinking. If we had 4 "Senpais", how would they be easily distinguished from one another so noobs get the help they need from the people who are supposed to be able to give it? Asking 5 different "mentors" about how to WHM before actually finding one who can help doesn't sound very fun. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of mentors tbh. Maybe they could have a role-specific title or a color coded crown? But then the people who could offer help in 3 out of 4 roles have to pick between the icons. Now we have a situation where it might take the noob longer than necessary to find a mentor of the right role. And this isn't even taking into account Crafter Senpais and Gatherer Senpais! I have a feeling it would end up as an overly convoluted system which would further confuse the already confused noobs. SE propably had this scenario in mind when designing the mentor system and went with the option that best serves the interests of the people it's supposed to help.

Account-wide progress would be good though, but I have a feeling there would be some technical difficulties. There aren't any account wide achievements at the moment are there? The only thing account wide I can think of are the rewards that get posted to you via moogle mail, but they don't actually track what you have done on other characters. Those rewards are based on the "achievements" of your service account, like paying a sub, buying a CE or generating friend codes.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I agree. Raising random people doesn't really indicate anything about someone's skill as a healer.

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Unfortunately there aren't any other healer specific achievements (unless you want to count the level 30 CNJ side quest that gives you a unicorn maybe?). I mean, in theory healers could also have the requirement to kill the striking dummy on the hardest difficulty as well, but that also doesn't show healing.

I think the idea behind Marxam suggesting the achievement was it says, "I play healer often enough that I've been able to help random players even though it may not benefit me". It's easy to argue that the achievement is flawed because being on a SMN or a PLD with Raise cross-classed (which is usable as long as you're not in combat) count toward the achievement as well. However, similar can be said about the tank achievements as they can now be farmed very quickly in level 60 tank-only t4 farms without actually needing much skill to play the class.

I think he's on the right track, but with the achievements we have now there isn't really much else he could have chosen from.

the issue is that even if u know everything about lets say BLM , and some1 ask about MCH? ...that u havent even unlocked :/

i guess this mentors arent "job mentors" and more like "role mentors" , as tank u need to use CD to mitigate this , invul for that , as healer u need to burst heal after X , or AoE heal after Y .....

I'm also concerned about the job requirement. As I mentioned, I have experience healing and I want to take part in the system for new healers. If I were to level say, a paladin to 60, that does not guarantee I'm qualified to teach tanking to newbies. A SMN can't really teach a MNK how to be a good dps, for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

The only one I have issue with is "Kindness of Strangers IV". I raise everyone I encounter if I can but there's just nowhere near enough to get that achievement as party & alliance don't count.

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Guess you could always get your FC or a group together to voluntarily drop while out of party you raise them one after another? We already know if this is a viable option other people are gonna do it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

the issue is that even if u know everything about lets say BLM , and some1 ask about MCH? ...that u havent even unlocked :/

i guess this mentors arent "job mentors" and more like "role mentors" , as tank u need to use CD to mitigate this , invul for that , as healer u need to burst heal after X , or AoE heal after Y .....

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Since you put it that way.. yeah that could be a problem.

The training room (Sky,Sea,Stone) is meant to teach you how to effectively play your job. The Mentor system is meant to teach and assist you with clearing content.
The reason mentors should know each role is to explain the secondary tasks of other jobs and how to deal with certain mechanics in varied scenarios.

I think mentors should only be able to mentor things they have cleared themselves. I hope SE actually does something concerning that to prevent "the blind leading the blind" situations.

Crafting mentoring!!!! I am stoked!!! I wonder if you can have both mentor crowns by your player name or have to toggle between them. I started a LS specifically to teach/mentor crafters/gatherers, but in four more levels I will have my SCH to 60 so I can mentor battle classes too! :)

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Originally Posted by Osmond

Don't rush the thank you just yet. Gotta wait til it's released and see how ppl will "mentor" the community first. That's what im waiting on.

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Oh don't worry, we're all screwed based on what's posted here daily.

I just noticed something else: achievements and rewards for this thing.

It's probably just me, but I despise incentivizing parts of the game that don't really need it. I was really disappointed when this happened with Eternal Bond (first thing that happened: got to attend a platinum ceremony for my friend and his friend, and they turned it into the lulziest thing that clearly made it look like they wouldn't do it otherwise), and now this. So just how many people are going to participate in this now to actually mentor players?

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Originally Posted by Ninster

It's probably just me, but I despise incentivizing parts of the game that don't really need it.

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It's less that they shouldn't be incentivizing certain parts of the game, and more that they should be incentivizing you to actually Do The Thing. Right now, as it stands, you just need to queue for the roulette to get the reward. A smarter method would be to have players vote at the end of the dungeon whether you were helpful enough to receive the reward. That way if players want the reward for the sake of getting the reward they have to be a good mentor anyway and those that just want to be good mentors will naturally be rewarded for it.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

the issue is that even if u know everything about lets say BLM , and some1 ask about MCH? ...that u havent even unlocked :/

i guess this mentors arent "job mentors" and more like "role mentors" , as tank u need to use CD to mitigate this , invul for that , as healer u need to burst heal after X , or AoE heal after Y .....

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I would HOPE a mentor, with as much cred as what's needed to be a mentor. would recognize "I'm probably not fit to teach you MCH" and you'd have the option of maybe find someone else, or do the research yourself to help them.


But I've been in a super super casual group before. Where If you have 8 mobs pulled, the BRD would just single target only. They don't do high end game content. So they are never challenged. If they remain casual like this long enough. They'll eventually reach those requirements. And be teaching people things like "Just play how you like to play, Don't worry about B4B cross class, I mean it adds such a small amount of damage it's not worth the effort"

I doubt this will be in abundance. But I can't help but worry that we could have a decent amount of ignorant people, making more people ignorant.
It's just a fear so let's see how it works out.

I could see people KNOWING they don't know enough, but trying to give advice anyways w/o research. Just so it seems like "they're helping". Human mind generally doesn't like to feel inferior. and enjoys being superior. So pretending to know the right thing even if it's a educational guess. Is hurtful.

Again we'll have to wait and see.

I'm a bit torn on this.
I agree with the people who mentioned how it could be a problem that you only need one class per category and how a BLM couldn't properly guide a MNK.
But at the same time, the whole point of this system is to help newbies, and I think they have other troubles than asking "What is the perfect lvl 60 rotation for MNK?"..^^

Some of the suggested requirements are nuts; how does it make me a good healer to have ressed 200 strangers? I have ressed 9(!) so far because everyone I ever come across is either afk or already returned by the time I arrive.
The people I know who have the title all got it through either baiting newbies into one-hit KO attacks in boss FATEs or they got some friends to die for them repeatedly, not one got the title in a "fair" way.
It would make more sense if achievements were added like "clear hard content x on a healer class", but again, to guide a newbie healer, do I really need to have done Savage as a healer? So in the end, I think SE did I good job with the requirements for the Mentor system after all :)

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

But I can't help but worry that we could have a decent amount of ignorant people, making more people ignorant.

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You'll get that anyway, because there is no consensus on what is "right" within the community anyway. For example, reading the forums everyday, I see opinions on how "to heal the right way" that make me shudder for how wrong they are in my eyes.
The amount of people who think a good healer should only heal and not dps is crazy high, and while I personally live by the "a tank with 1% HP is still an alive tank"-creed, I know plenty of people who regard anyone a horrible healer who lets the tank fall below 90% HP.
Not to mention that I talked to people from smaller servers (who claim to be the best healers on their server!) who think Medica 2 spam is a good general healing strategy..
And most of this is coming from people who have plenty of experience in their class...

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Originally Posted by Atoli

You'll get that anyway, because there is no consensus on what is "right" within the community anyway.

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well I know it will happen. I'm just curious what that Quantity is. Will be it like 80% people who know what they are talking about mentoring, vs 20% ignorant. or flipped?

Depending on which type of mentor is the majority, will determine if this will be a success or not.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

and while I personally live by the "a tank with 1% HP is still an alive tank"-creed

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I just have to say, I wish I had the kind of reflexes you do (assuming I'm understanding what you mean) as a healer. I don't main healer or tank, but I do play both to the best that I know of and I just feel bad if I play chicken with the tank. And as a tank, I get a little scared if I'm at 30% and still seeing Cleric up.

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but I guess (part of) the reason they chose "have one character from each role to 60" is because of the mentor roulette. For all of the 4-player content, you cannot mentor other tanks or healers if you're playing that role yourself. Though I would assume some of the 8-player (later MSQ primals, for instance) content will be in there as well, it'll still be the minority of the content in the new roulette, and that's already pretty late in the game, so it's not gonna be of any use for "sprouts".

Personally, what I would really like would be a mode where you don't actively participate in battle, but come along with low-level parties as a sort of fifth party member. You can't fight, but you can guide the group through dungeons or boss fights, use target signs & location markers, and have time to observe the party in battle and give hints/suggestions. It might be an interesting concept.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

I just have to say, I wish I had the kind of reflexes you do (assuming I'm understanding what you mean) as a healer. I don't main healer or tank, but I do play both to the best that I know of and I just feel bad if I play chicken with the tank. And as a tank, I get a little scared if I'm at 30% and still seeing Cleric up.

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It's got way less to do with reflexes than it does with being able to gauge how much damage a tank will take in the next few GCDs, and what you have available to get them back up in time, which is something you learn plainly from experience.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Guess you could always get your FC or a group together to voluntarily drop while out of party you raise them one after another? We already know if this is a viable option other people are gonna do it anyway.

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That's something that I just couldn't bring myself to do I'm afraid. Others may wish to, but not my style at all.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

I'm also concerned about the job requirement. As I mentioned, I have experience healing and I want to take part in the system for new healers. If I were to level say, a paladin to 60, that does not guarantee I'm qualified to teach tanking to newbies. A SMN can't really teach a MNK how to be a good dps, for that matter.

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I say that makes kind of sense if you think it in the way that you perform duty runs with them - Other than the DPS role, none other role can be present twice in standard 4-man groups, so you have to tag team as either healer or tank.
This I believe is the idea of SE, requiring you to be flexible in your own roles so you can join your peer in the duties with any setup.

What I DO wonder now, if those 'Mentor/Learner' groups will have their own seperate queue and join the duty with some other likeminded folks.
Given the fact that you occasionally stop and give your learner some hints about the boss/abilities/etc, regular queued people might get annoyed by the distruption of their progress of it.

I am gonna have to agree or hope on the learning groups having thier own thing, or at least make it so they can't be kicked or vote-abandon? Though as slowpoke mentioned, I agree with the idea of coming as a 5th person, kinda how they treat you when it comes to fates "Unable to participate" due to being over leveled.

I think myself and my BF will immediately sign up to be Mentors ^^. I can't wait to see how the system works, hopefully it can help all the newbies :).

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I think they need to rework the prerequisites for DoW/DoM. They basically generalized it instead of creating specific mentors, ex. Tank mentor, Healer mentor and DPS mentor. The requirements are also way too low for veteran players. If anything, the prerequisites should be like this.
**snip**
Overly ridiculous mentor conditions
**snip**

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The mentors are for bringing along new players, not polishing up wannabe raisers.

I actually think the requirements announced are a little on the high side, but I understand the need for 3 lvl 60 jobs, so it is what it is. At lest it's not like the stupid tank mounts where encouraging players to tank for the community focused almost exclusively on full party end-game content, which I am sure didn't really attract many tanks into helping the community, since most who got these did the requirement with established teams.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The mentors are for bringing along new players, not polishing up wannabe raisers.

I actually think the requirements announced are a little on the high side, but I understand the need for 3 lvl 60 jobs, so it is what it is. At lest it's not like the stupid tank mounts where encouraging players to tank for the community focused almost exclusively on full party end-game content, which I am sure didn't really attract many tanks into helping the community, since most who got these did the requirement with established teams.

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maybe the requirements I sated are too high, though personally I don't think so. If I want someone to assist me as a "new" player for the class I am playing, I want someone with a proven track record and not someone who fated all their jobs to 60. Plus the tank mount achievement is very easy to earn with unsync content so that debunks any "challenge" to earn them.

I still think they should have divided it into specific mentors. As it currently stands I am unqualified to be a mentor due to the fact that I have no healer at 60 because I don't like healing and find no enjoyment in it. Highest healer job i got is the CNJ at 34 and that was only for the stonseskin as cc for PLD. That's what I get for learning and focusing on jobs that I enjoy to play and continue to learn and improve in.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

maybe the requirements I sated are too high, though personally I don't think so. If I want someone to assist me as a "new" player for the class I am playing, I want someone with a proven track record and not someone who fated all their jobs to 60. Plus the tank mount achievement is very easy to earn with unsync content so that debunks any "challenge" to earn them.

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I didn't say it was a challenge, I said that the achievement was not rewarding tanks who help build the community it in the end rewarded the same people who can farm the instances required with their friends.

I disagree with your assessment of what is needed by new players. Based on my own experience, a rather large number of high level players who would undoubtedly qualify as 'mentors' are the self same players who ignore the mechanics on every piece of content below level 51 - because they can. I've run lots of older content with said players and honestly, I doubt half of them could cope with running the same content in level appropriate gear rather than their slightly nerfed ilvl 200+ gear. How can people who ignore mechanics, and speed run leveling dungeons because it takes too long otherwise teach new players how to play the game?

You have to walk before you run. Before new players learn those bad habits, they need to learn how to actually play first. Unfortunately, I don't think that this mentor system really focuses on that aspect of things. I mean, I know it's not easy to define the criteria for being a mentor, so they have to quantify it somehow. But, if new players run into the groups I have seen when helping others running the HM primals or leveling dungeons, they will get a very skewed view of how the game plays.

All jobs 60, including battle/crafting/gathering, +3000 recommendation, resolve everything. ^^;

Obviously now SE just trying to make more players can be a mentor.