Why do people still single target mobs when there are 3 or more?

And then you get the dragoons just spamming ring of thorns over and over without proccing it (or even using heavy thrust once at the start...)

Have to turn my volume off for that cause the sound of badness grates on me.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

How do you even.. ?

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I think what it means is once you've regenerated enough TP to use Death Blossom it's better to continue rather than using your regenerated TP for single target skills. Not sure if it's actually true, but I don't play Ninja so... :P

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Originally Posted by Alexftw

That's compared to fire 1 only(before 3.0). With fire4 single target is a bit better. ^^

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Sustained AoE is still more damage than sustained ST on 3 mobs, just not as much more as it was in 2.x.

ST does about 15% more damage in a single AF/UI rotation vs 3 mobs, but that rotation takes almost 50% longer.

Ley Lines/Swiftcast shorten the AoE rotation by a larger proportion than ST, due to the timing and the 3 second server side MP ticks.

There's no "freeing up" a WHM to DPS. You just do it. Three or more enemies I will always go right into DPS after my initial starter. Six or more? All the more urgent to do so imho.

Bard is the only melee class where it's still efficient to AOE with only 3 mobs, thanks to Rain of Death being off cooldown and free TP when it procs. Even then, a bard has to blast at least one mob with the single target DoTs to proc RoD, and some bards strategically target two or more when Internal Release is up to spread the DoT crit love. Bards switch to single target Heavy Shots when the mob count drops to two because the damage to TP ratio is less when it's not blasting three targets.

All other classes are probably going to do a better job using less TP and whittling them down one at a time in smaller pulls.

Running HT with ROT is an absolute waste.

The conal of DS has a further range to hit more targets as well. You should be positioning.

If targets are behind you or beside you you're wasting DPS losing auto attacks.

Ring of thorns should NEVER be used. I can't stress that enough.

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Originally Posted by Ykronix

Considering the refresh rate of Elixir Field, Blood for Blood and Internal Release, I don't mind AoEing whenever available, even on three mobs. Two full AoE rotations then back to single targeting and the mobs should be pretty close to gone even before popping Invigorate. The only time I don't bother is if its a mob before a boss fight, otherwise there's no real benefit to not using it, as the time between mobs is usually long enough for the TP to regenerate and most cooldowns.

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Can also use Purification to help speed up TP regen too in between packs, if you find the party is moving between packs faster than your TP can regen.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

I'd be interested if this is actually more efficient or not. AOE attacks by a DPS I'd imagine would outweigh a healer in cleric stance considering the potential need for switch backs/ negative trait removals.

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Speaking for my own experience, if there are low HP mobs in the group, I'll hit my better AOEs (as Monk) to help clear them out. However, for higher HP mobs, I'll tend to focus-target, starting with the most annoying/dangerous ones, and working down. I do it that way because I can kill a single target far faster with direct attacks, than I can help take out several with weaker AOEs.

That said, I *do* throw in Elixir Field and Rockbreaker when they're up. I also refresh DOTs when possible. More damage is more damage, after all. I have the attacks, so why wouldn't I use them?

I just find the pulls go faster/smoother if the herd's being thinned through more powerful direct attacks, than they do with more mobs being whittled down solely by spamming AOEs.

for classes like Nin and Drg, in my opinion, it's faster to burn down 1 at a time when it's only 3 mobs. It's simply not worth the TP cost

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

How do you even.. ?

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Ninja magic, also sheer NIN awesomeness defies petty things like "not enough TP".

Some people don't understand the breaking points at which AOE is mathematically more efficient and exactly how the aoe should be implemented and it's not a static value for all classes. For example, with ninjas I'm pretty sure the aoe rotation (katon -> kassatsu -> doton -> Death blossom x8 -> katon) is only effective on 4+ mobs and only if all of them will survive at least 30 seconds. Whereas a warrior can start aoe on two mobs and still be effective. Not to mention there's dungeon layout to take into account, you don't want to blow your load on aoe if you need cds for the next pull.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

Running HT with ROT is an absolute waste.

The conal of DS has a further range to hit more targets as well. You should be positioning.

If targets are behind you or beside you you're wasting DPS losing auto attacks.

Ring of thorns should NEVER be used. I can't stress that enough.

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Zerging FATEs with many players around. You just need to tap the mobs once to get credit when it dies. Straight Ring of Thorns doesn't require actual targeting, gets the job done, and makes for easy credit.

Mah deeps bruh

Tunnel vision, I'd wager. Or simply because they happen to play a class where single target damage is generally higher. There's a lot of merit to the idea of bursting down a single target at a time rather than spamming AoE - especially if someone is playing a melee class. Some people just find it more fun to embrace their single target rotation since pressing the same ability over and over can be dull.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Some people just find it more fun to embrace their single target rotation since pressing the same ability over and over can be dull.

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Monks would like to have a word with you sir.

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Originally Posted by Ykronix

Monks would like to have a word with you sir.

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If only perfect balance could last forever...AOEs all day.

Because, on three mobs, rockbreaker (130 potency per target = 390 total potency) is only 40 more potency per rotation than multi-dotting with demolish (70 potency at strike + 40 every 3 seconds for 21 seconds = 350 potency. 320 if you fail the positional), but costs much much more tp, making it highly inefficient (but still useful sometimes). Using elixir field and howling fist are obvious things to do regardless; should be using those on single target rotations, even.

I don't know about the other DPS at 60, but at fifty almost all were in the same boat. I'd assume this is still the case now.

Now if the thread title were 'why do people still single target mobs when there are 4 or more' my answer would be simply that they don't really understand the mechanics of the game.

Because as Ninja I'll run out of TP unless the mob dies really fast.

The amount of aoe I do as a healer or NIN is directly dependent on how big of a douche you are; if you're dashing off to grab everything in sight before the healer (usually me) can put up a protect, you'll never see a single dot pop up on your mobs, let alone a Gravity or Katon.

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Originally Posted by Chimeric

The amount of aoe I do as a healer or NIN is directly dependent on how big of a douche you are; if you're dashing off to grab everything in sight before the healer (usually me) can put up a protect, you'll never see a single dot pop up on your mobs, let alone a Gravity or Katon.

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That's what swiftcast is for.

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Originally Posted by Immut

That's what swiftcast is for.

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It's also for raise, which you're probably also not getting once you realize you pulled too many.

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Originally Posted by Immut

That's what swiftcast is for.

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Then how am I gonna Stoneskin II?

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

Running HT with ROT is an absolute waste.

The conal of DS has a further range to hit more targets as well. You should be positioning.

If targets are behind you or beside you you're wasting DPS losing auto attacks.

Ring of thorns should NEVER be used. I can't stress that enough.

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Wrong. Ring of thorns is definitely worth using at least when refreshing heavy thrust. A buffed ring of thorns is worth more damage than doom spike and you always get a buffed one if you are refreshing heavy thrust from the flank.

From my perspective. Fire II costs more at a lower potency than Fire I. On a group of mobs you will deal less damage and take longer to kill them across the length of their hp than to burn them one at a time. Also you will be generating Enimity on every other target that the tank isn't hitting. Flash, Overpower, Unleash can't last as long to keep up.

I define dungeon mobs in terms of Easy, Medium, Hard. You have groups of mobs (hard), bigger groups of trash ( easy) and randomly appearing fodder (medium). Groups all have buffed Hp pools and better defence (they are all over the dungeon). Trash has less Hp and generally take more damage, deal les damage overall, and drop like a rock off a cliff. Fodder is a slightly weaker mob that's just there to slow things down and is easily identified during the second boss fight of Shatasa hard. Both trash and fodder will also appear in larger numbers than ordinary mobs, trash even more so. In this case using AOE Fire II and Blizard II, etc will be more effective than killing them off one at a time. Otherwise you're not using TP and MP efficiently to deal the most damage if you are only spamming AOE's on every group of mobs you come across. That's why most big and large pulls are done more often when there's multiple mages (smn blm). The multiple aoe damage will stack up better than TP aoe ,and the egi's will compensate for everything else. Otherwise if they are not trash TP aoe's wont do as much damage and is only so-so with fodder. However DOT's are a catch all for almost anything.

Trash/Easy:
Shatasha= the flames around the clam shells
Shatasha Hard= half of them dead sailors that keep appearing when you fight the first mate out side the gate. The last large groups of mobs at the end of the second boss.
Atherochemical Research: Mannequins, and those 10 guys at the first terminal in the third section.
Wanderers palace hard = all those little slimes that appear

Fodder/Medium:
Shatasha Hard = the groups of three that appear during the captains fight.
Void Ark: demons, winged knights, small sharks, sprouts.
Shatasha Hard= half of them dead sailors that keep appearing when you fight the first mate out side the gate.
Basically most raid and dungeon mobs that don't drop like a rock after a couple hits that keep appearing as hp drops or targets are destroyed/activated

Groups/Hard: Everything else in roaming packs of 2 ~ 4; 5 if the roaming mob gets to close. (the most common)

Anything above hard is a mini boss or dungeon boss.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Someone please explain to me why, i really don't understand.

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Because they understand/respect their tanks, since they too don't exactly have infinite AoE? This isn't WoW you know.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Schmoe

Because they understand/respect their tanks, since they too don't exactly have infinite AoE? This isn't WoW you know.

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Tanks don't need infinite AoE to hold aggro. WAR just needs maim + berserk + some overpowers and they'll be holding aggro. DRK only needs to use a couple of their flash move to hold aggro too. (they also get more MP back from blood price the more they pull) PLD has the worst AoE aggro but they can flash a lot before running out of MP.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think what it means is once you've regenerated enough TP to use Death Blossom it's better to continue rather than using your regenerated TP for single target skills. Not sure if it's actually true, but I don't play Ninja so... :P

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Yeah it's the same for any melee though the threshholds are different. With a lot of mobs still up it's better to wait 2 tics and do 1k or so damage spread out amongst x mobs instead of doing 2 single target moves for a total of 3-400 hundred. Guesstimates of course, base it on whatever your job's potencies are and do the numbers.

You may see people refer to 2 key points: "more damage per gcd" is when you'll do more damage regardless of tp cost, and that's 3 mobs, nin included. "more efficiency per gcd" is when you hit that first qualifier AND you hit a point where even adding several single-target moves together you wouldn't do as much damage. So NIN single target average is somethin like 220 potency. AOE at 3+ mobs until low on tp. AOE and wait for tp to AOE more at 5+ because that 120 tp would get you roughly 440 potency used on single-target moves.

Also I swear these people in this thread and elsewhere saying NIN aoe is so bad missed that trait that boosts Death Blossom from 60 potency to 100.

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and a DRG should never, under any circumstance ever use Ring of Thorns if they AOE.

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Ehh, if they just put up a clean Heavy Thrust, I don't see the harm with using it. Once.

I wish the spammers would accidentally impale themselves, though. Whether it's in combat or in town.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Schmoe

Because they understand/respect their tanks, since they too don't exactly have infinite AoE? This isn't WoW you know.

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As a tank, I want my DPS to AOE more, not less.

I primarily play NIN. My golden rule is "More than 3, AoE." Three or less, won't even bother, I'll drop Doton and stick to single target.

A lot of the answers here make me cry.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

Because SE gave BLM a bad assed set of solo target skill and weaken BLM's AOE skills back in 3.0

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Fire 2 does more damage than any of your single target spells when it is hitting 3+ enemies. ;p

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

The faster one or two mobs in the group get killed, the sooner it may be safe for the healer to join in with DPS.

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In which case (party setup), the tank should be making small pulls and be in dps mode.

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Originally Posted by Taei

Someone please explain to me why, i really don't understand.

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Because I pay attention to the tank. If I only see one Flash? If I see he is only focusing on one mob after a single Unleash? I know damned well that even with Quelling on, I will get in maybe two AOE attacks on bard or black before I rip hate on everything but the tank's main target. And frankly any tank that is that tunnel visioned about holding hate isn't going to be arsed to pull things off me. Thanks but no thanks.

Whenever I play Mnk or Goon,I always AOE if there are at least 3 mobs but I agree that Nin should not AOE unless there are at least 4 mobs.

As others have noted, AoE on 3 targets is often somewhat inefficient for melee (less so for MNK) due to high TP costs, even if the potency per second is higher.

If the tank is doing large pulls at other sections in the dungeon, but we're on one of the forced smaller pulls, I'll usually only AoE until about half TP (plus using skills that don't cost TP, like Doton/Katon/Elixir Field/Howling Fist) on smaller groups, so that I can start the next pull at full TP with Invigorate, to maximize DPS for the larger pull.

3 mobs? I don't really care what the DPS does. The only way I'm pulling only 3 mobs is if the dungeon layout forces it. That changes at 5+ mobs. Nothing annoys me more than when I pull 2 or 3 groups together, then spot that DRG sitting on 90% TP, calmly going through his single-target rotation on one of them. I immediately know this is going to be a slow dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

3 mobs? I don't really care what the DPS does. The only way I'm pulling only 3 mobs is if the dungeon layout forces it. That changes at 5+ mobs. Nothing annoys me more than when I pull 2 or 3 groups together, then spot that DRG sitting on 90% TP, calmly going through his single-target rotation on one of them. I immediately know this is going to be a slow dungeon.

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I was going to type the same thing. I mean when was the last time ANY tank pulled just 3 mobs at a time?

ill aoe from 4 + even on mele groups will melt with mele aoe if done correctly if you think its slow and pointless ya just gotta get good

No physical job in game really has abilities suited for aoe unless you pull ten mobs or so, especially with the higher mob HP. Bard can multi dot and use aoe procs and machinist can also multi dot and drop a Bishop but otherwise the only GOOD aoe in this game comes from mage types.