and the "strictly DPS" notion is mostly wrong. a RDM is regularly supposed to use most lower tier White and Black Magic. DPS can't regularly use Cure spells in this game, that hurts DPS. the sword part of RDM makes them less suited to be a back line healer, so you're left with "are there enough tricks in their bag so that they can be viable tanks". between anything you can do with "Spikes" spells, Phalanx, Parrying with a Fencing Sword, Fast Cast, Stoneskin and Cure. i don't see why not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mycow8me
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12-31-2015, 07:32 AMSendohJin
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12-31-2015, 08:31 AMLambdafishDon't worry, I wasn't forcing my idea of a RDM on anyone, I was just proving that Red Mage can fit within the trinity quite nicely, and doesn't have to fit the formula of support, although your mention of "strictly dps" doesnt fit my idea either, as I did mention support type spells (think Virus, eye for an eye, vunerability spells, as well as things like goad but for MP) alongside elemental sword attacks. This game has tried to make classic jobs different before, especially DRK, so I see no reason why we would see complaints from people about RDM (other than whining "I didnt get my perfect vision" people, which im surprised we didnt see more of in DRK).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mycow8me
I also want DPS SAM and Chemist Healer (healing mudras), and I know a lot of people would hate that :P -
12-31-2015, 08:58 AMNanaWiloh
Two of those roles have already been filled. AST and Scholars filled the healer/dps niche and DRK have done a nice job of filling the DPS/Tank niche. Leaving the healer/tank role open as most tanks with the exception of Paladins have only self heals. Note though a Paladins ability to heal other members is pretty much not needed.With most classes having buffs/Debuffs the need for another buffing class is kind of mute point unless you take away from others or op the new buffs as some have mentioned.
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12-31-2015, 09:11 AMVerius_Nox
I don't imagine they'd change to a 5 player light party set up, everything they currently have balanced around is the 4 players, and 8 in full party dungeons, and it'd take them a bit to work out the proper balancing if they changed to 5/10.
And then comes the next problem, gauging how good a support should be for 5 man content, and then in 10 man content. Would there be 2 supports for 10 man content? If they are powerful enough to buff/debuff in 10 man content, and take up 2 slots DPS would otherwise take, then it's a possibility they'd be extremely powerful in 5 man content, or the even the inverse.
The real problem is how would they work a support only class into this game, that actually works in both tiers of content they have. In games currently that have support only roles, typically a support is shoe horned into dungeon content for the sake of having a role for them, but when it comes to raid content, you just take the one or two, and fill the last 15 slots or so with DPS.
I'm not against the idea of having support only roles, I know a few friends whom it'd be perfect for, but I just don't see it happening in this game. It is something the developers have to create the game with them in mind for it to function. -
12-31-2015, 11:21 AMWarlyxRdm in FF series (more so in FFXI thanks to subjob) was the wild card , heals? yes , nukes? yes , melee? yes.... tank? some....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mycow8me
if Rdm come as DPS melee , ppl will scream bloddy murder , is a MAGE! its supposed to have spells...
if rdm come as mage , what? RDM main weapon is a sword , why isnt melee while nuke and healing?
if rdm come as healer.... WHAT? gimped WHM , blablabla
if rdm come as tank .......NO !$!$ WAY? , we have pld for tank " healer" (to be fair PLD need more selfhealing and maybe some "light nuke") , or drk for tank/blm....
no1 will be happy thats for sure.
we have a dps Melee/caster already with Nin :/ -
12-31-2015, 11:23 AMIromi
I would love to see a real support class in this game
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12-31-2015, 11:58 AMbasketofsealsThe trinity isn't something that was just made up by a game and got unreasonably popular. The tank/dps/healer setup has existed since the very first rendition of DnD, and maybe even before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical-Limit
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12-31-2015, 12:01 PMNektulos-Tuor
Red Mage easily fits tank. Don't see the need to make this complicated.
Tanks heal and deal damage and sustain themselves. Like a Red Mage.
It also fits this theme.
BLM=DPS
WHM=Healer
RDM=Tank
With White Mage Spells a Red Mage can protect and heal himself from attacks.
With Black Mage Spells a Red Mage can hurt and increase enmity to himself, using aoe attacks and such.
Requires 15 Thaumaturge, 15 Conjuror.
Jack of all Trade classes ARE the Tank classes. I'm also dying for a Mage Tank. -
12-31-2015, 12:28 PMDyvidWhat are your ideas on queue times and how adding another role won't make it worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical-Limit
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12-31-2015, 02:55 PMJhett_Magnum
MCH/BRD regardless of past iterations are the support in the game. So unless they add Skill trees or cut back on MCH/BRD dps skills we won't see a dedicated support role. All the issues have been pointed out either they are too strong or underpowered.
I personally want RDM and BLU to work but unless they change the system around the trinity isn't going anywhere. -
12-31-2015, 03:06 PMLego3400It got popular because it worked better. Support classes are had to balance around, either being too powerful or not powerful enough, and if they're just right, why play one when you could deal the same amount of DPS/Healing/Damage Reduction as one of regular classes yourself instead of standing there casting buffs that make other people do it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
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12-31-2015, 05:15 PMMycow8me
I dunno, i could see rdm as a tank but that still strays from being a "mage".
I guess my ownly real problem with not having actual support classes in this game is that utility is spread accross all jobs and are either insignificant, forgotten, or just rarely used if used at all in the heat of battle cause of your "trinity" focus.
For example, a scholar keeping a group alive, cautiously watching hps unaware they are able to use sacred soil, and since its only 15 seconds long, its only useful for certain situations anyway taking nearly 3 seconds to proc on players in it after it starts to appear.
A bards going to be too busy dpsing a raid dps clock to notice that a healers low on mp or tank low on tp and has to be told sometimes.
I know this is just 2 situations but im on lunch break and limited on time. What im trying to say is a support role can focus on support and adapt to a situation quickly. This brings alot of strategy to the game but i know there are plenty of people fine with how it is. Not trying to force support roles, i just think it could do alot for this game. -
12-31-2015, 07:54 PMFeliAiko
I like the idea of the support role being shared across all jobs. Problem is the challenging content tends to be centered around DPS checks, so the reliance on support/utility skills isn't as heavy outside of specific circumstances.
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12-31-2015, 09:20 PMCritical-LimitI guess you missed the part in the thread where I mentioned the bosses hit harder an faster therefore you must keep up slow/paralyze/ other debuffs to sustain the fight. Sure you could replace support role with another dPS but you'll at the VERY least as a result of this are going to want DRG to keep up slow, a monk to dispel, and some other dPS to paralyze, so you'll have to gather very specific dPS jobs to replace 1 support job. When it'll be much easier to just let that support role into the party. The entire reason of making enfeebles a necessity was to validate the need for them in party when balancedQuote:
Originally Posted by Lego3400
Just like in a imaginary world where tanks aren't a concept, we could MAKE them a concept by artificially adding a NEED for them, via make dPS squishy, thus having a need for a tank. -
12-31-2015, 09:22 PMAskaRayFixed it..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mycow8me
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12-31-2015, 09:24 PMCritical-LimitYou also missed the point. Cuz I clearly said "Imagine" there is a point in there I don't see how people are missing itQuote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
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12-31-2015, 09:43 PMSylve
I think they could easily create a Support type job that takes a DPS slot while providing the level of DPS that a pure DPS Job would bring by beefing up the other DPS to make up for the loss of DPS it puts out itself.
As an example, Imagine if we had a Dancer ingame that used its Dances to directly buff other Damage Dealers while dealing damage itself, or to provide a Vulnerability on the Target.
To throw a number out there, if our theoretical Dancer had a personal DPS of 700, but through its various dances it improves the DPS of the Black Mage by 300 while it focuses on said Black Mage or it could improve the DPS of all present party members by doing a Foes Req type debuff on the enemy at the cost of no longer providing that direct support to the specified party member.
For Healers, they could provide large healing boosts or give Evasion/Defense bonuses to a Tank.
The issue with creating a class like that though, is finding people to actually play it. Personally, a class that makes its party stronger as opposed to directly contributing damage of its own would be great fun. However, A large portion of the playerbase would ignore such a class because they're never going to see huge crits or do amazing personal damage.
Balancing it could be problematic though, it'd be difficult to use straight percentile buffs because those would scale too well at the latter end of the gear spectrum. Maybe providing potency boosts instead would be easier to keep from inflating numbers too far?
I still would like to see them create such a job though. I would play the hell out of it.
PS: I think i was offtopic a little. Sorry XD -
12-31-2015, 09:55 PMWarlyx
sylve that "could" be balanced for 8 man....but what about 4 man? 24? , what if u find yourself with 1 tank 1 heal 2 dnc ...ppl still /sigh when they see 2 brd /mch
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12-31-2015, 10:11 PMSylveActually, 2 Dancers would be capable of buffing each other while also rotating out the party based buffs. Essentially, it'd be no worse that being partied with 2 reasonably well played BRD/MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
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12-31-2015, 10:19 PMCritical-LimitThis is a valid point but I feel dungeons are mostly for casuals that's why 2brd or BRD and mch still happen but we're not making threads to make sure it NEVER happens. People are naturally more accepting of their duty roulette wild card. That's why there is a bonus to get you to do it and I also feel like it's compensation for dealing with randoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
The post above you explains it well IMO.
So if you get two support jobs they could buff eachother in a way they can get the party to put out at least acceptable numbers as a whole.
Without actually creating a few of these jobs and testing them with real numbers we can only speculate. -
12-31-2015, 10:24 PMAlphaFox
Just throwing it out there but id gladly play a role where my main job was to support the rest of the team with buffs and debuff enemies while doing what dps I can. May be a small group but I can imagine there being a group all for it.
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12-31-2015, 11:40 PMSylveI would love to play a class like that too, but it'd be up to the devs to decide if they want to do it. I really hope they do, It'd be a very unique playing experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFox
Incidentally, Red Mage would work in a similar vein, perhaps providing smaller boosts with higher personal DPS, but providing it with the En-spells (for itself or others), Hastes (technically AST Arrows do the Haste thing too), minor Regens etc, while maintaining its identity through mixing spells with TP Weaponskills (that's how RDMs work, right?).
It'd actually be sorta interesting if it reduced its own cast times or caused a double cast by using weaponskills in various orders. -
12-31-2015, 11:41 PMEvangela
just let some jobs select the role they want to play, like WHM/WAR/DRK can que as a DPS. For RDM and BLU, let them que as DPS and healer but their main role should be DPS. SMR should be a DPS but also let them que as a tank. Give SMR a stance switching skill that when they're in tank stance their attacks will gain enmity.
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01-01-2016, 12:03 AMSylvePlease no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangela
If you want to play DPS, play one of the DPS Jobs. Likewise for Tanks.
When you try to have multirole Jobs, you end up with the Arcanist problem of needing to switch your Bonus stats around to not be gimped.
Not only that, But if you chose to queue as DPS as a WHM your DPS consists of Holy, Aero and Stone spam. You are ignoring 70% of your Job. Then the devs would be required to make this secondary role competitive at a Savage Raiding level since you can bet that there would be an outcry that someone wanted to do Savage Alex as a DPS WHM but they couldn't pass the DPS checks.
And then you'd run into issues where taking 6 WHMs into Savage Alex is optimal because it lets you have 4 backup healers ... UNless you're advocating a flat lock on their healing skills while queued in DPS mode. And then how do you balance this DPS Mode WHM with a WHM just using Cleric Stance? How would you do this in the world? Only for instances?
Too much crap to deal with to try and add it.
So no, lets keep Jobs specialized in their role/purpose to keep every ability relevant at pretty much all times.
TL;DR, game wasn't designed for multiroling your Jobs. Man up an level/play another job. -
01-02-2016, 11:09 PMKurogaeaDon't need parsers to begin with, balancing is what SE is great at, and fun is debatable in this game so adding a support role that solely buffs dps and possibly healers and tanks could be fun if you make it yourself. Adding a new role would increase opportunities for more classes, different play styles and less repetitiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad