What is wrong with people on the forum..?

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Originally Posted by Aarik

Goodness, White Knights on this thread sure do like to throw out completely unfounded numbers, don't you? Here's a stat for you; I was logged on Ragnarok during peak hours today for about 4 hours. I saw two pf up pertaining to the relic quest. The other few were recruitment messages/looking to buy a house.

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Sorry, but that is either a blatant lie or you were online at 4 in the morning on a weekday, which means of course the number of people will dwindle.
I'm on Ragnarok as well, been online all day since the patch went live until now, and throughout all of the day there have been at least 30 groups in pf doing relic stuff, usually about 8 FATE parties (with the anima crystal farm as an objective listed), 5 Alex farm parties (anima farm as an objective as well) and the rest various unsynced parties for the second relic step, ALSO with the relic quest as the objective listed. All of my Linkshells and FCs have also been incredibly busy, but that's a personal thing, yours might jsut legitimately be dead, so that part doesn't count. Anyway, server was incredibly active with the relic quest all day.

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Originally Posted by jObEfiSH

Well you seem to have the knowledge about what people are enjoying, let's give the new relic grind some praise! What is your favorite part of the last step? I can't even decide, so much new, fun and innovative stuff. I hope WoW doesn't come along and steal this fun gameplay away. So yes, let us hear what you think is good about the new weapon grind?

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Ok I see this innovative talk alot what do you want innovative in this game? This is a real question because right now it just seems you want to just shut down and jump down anyone's throat for the heck of it.

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Originally Posted by jObEfiSH

Well you seem to have the knowledge about what people are enjoying, let's give the new relic grind some praise! What is your favorite part of the last step? I can't even decide, so much new, fun and innovative stuff. I hope WoW doesn't come along and steal this fun gameplay away. So yes, let us hear what you think is good about the new weapon grind?

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You seem to be really defensive. Because you seem to have trouble people "speaking for you", would you mind telling me why you're aching?

As to answer your attempt at to dismantle me, I am having great fun chatting with my friends grinding Law and Alexander. I'm super thrilled with the spiral tendrils around the i200 :3 And I am extremely fond of the appearance of many of them! Especially my up and coming gun. I'm currently at 8/80 of my pieces necessary and am in a group of people who informed me themselves they're having a great time.

Step off, Buddy. You being facetious isn't cute or admirable.

People are happy to have things to do for the next few months? I don't think it's something I want to do, it's more like torturing. Playing video games should... entertaining me, for god sake. If you find it entertaining, well, good for you. But don't act like other people don't have a valid reason to dislike it.

Because the forum is one massive cesspool of negativity.

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Originally Posted by Slippin

Because the forum is one massive cesspool of negativity.

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I keep telling myself that, but yet here I am... Do we need help?

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Originally Posted by Heskett

You are literally throwing a tantrum over this.

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Actually I was pointing out your hypocrisy, which you have avoided quite skillfully. But enough about that, as a white knight you're probably horrified/disgusted by us people do dare complain, so I will give you a logical, non-emotional argument. First and foremost, what most people are angry about is not the grind, though it is immense. What they (myself included) are angry about is the fact that it is completely recycled content; the zones may be different, and the items may differ, but the requirements are the same as before; well except the only enjoyable aspect of the old relic, that being the chimera/hydra/primals. Not only are they the same as before, but on top of that they've added even more grind than previously; and this is just the first stage. If people wish to obtain the ilvl210 relic by the time 3.2 comes out, then they need to utilize everything at their disposal; hunt marks, beastmen tokens, poetics, ect. Yet people have looong been burned out on hunts, and a great few have absolutely no interest in beastmen. That leaves poetics; of which you will need (if memory serves) only 54,460 poetics. Not all that much, right?

The point of all of this; while yes, the relic grind was severe before, it was at least toned down enough that people who didn't log on every single day to do everything for relic could enjoy their weapon for typically at least a month or two. Yet with the requirements for this new relic; the first stage might I add, by the time most obtain it, either 3.2 will have released with better weapons, or a mini-patch that lets us trade in our void ark tokens to upgrade our eso weapons. Either way, their struggle will have been invalidated before they even finish.

THAT, is what people are so pissed about. Happy?

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Originally Posted by Slippin

Because the forum is one massive cesspool of negativity.

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Welcome, Brother.

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Originally Posted by GiseleValkyrie

Ok I see this innovative talk alot what do you want innovative in this game? This is a real question because right now it just seems you want to just shut down and jump down anyone's throat for the heck of it.

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Have you seen WoWs new Relic system plans? It is hands down beating the crap out of FFXIV, I haven't even played WoW in many many years and have zero desire to but they are actually trying something new. They are taking it places I didn't expect, taking your weapon to your actual class trainer and having you choose what path of skill points you put into your weapon to make it grow stronger. FFXIV could have actually TRIED something new, but they literally took what people did Year 1 and made it even more obnoxious. If people want to say that this is about people over reacting that is fine, but they should at least be able to provide SOME honest feedback on what is actually enjoyable about it before just discrediting everyone with an opinion about wanting the game to be better as people that just want to whine.

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Originally Posted by Conando

4 HQ crafted items that require several different specialists. The last bit is the real sticking point, the grind for tokens would have been more than enough, but then they chose to tack on the crafting requirement that will lead to things such as RMT on smaller servers.

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We also had various threads in the last few weeks where crafters asked SE to make specialists useful and important. That's exactly what they did with this mini-patch (because now people are forced to buy the parts specialists made since you need all 8 but can play 3 at most) yet now people are unhappy with them being that important and holding the key to relic in their hands with the price range they decide on. You can't possibly please both sides, that's the problem. Either their products are important, which will lead to them having power over others in some way, or they aren't, which will make crafters ask "why should we even do them, then?", especially since a lot of work has to be put in to make these recipes work.

My personal problem with the relic grind is a few things: (as a filthy casual)

1: It's not entertaining or challenging. It's just a grind, no skill, nothing but a time sink, which as a new father I don't have.

2: It won't last. Just until the next patch and then it's time to do a whole other grind all over again

3: As a paying customer I feel like I've been slapped in the face with rehashed, recycled content (atma grinding)

It's upsetting and the best way I can put it that I feel right now is that my "feelings are hurt". I've been extremely faithful to FF and the SE crew since XI, and loved everything about that game, even though it was 10x harder than XIV. However I feel like the DEV team hasn't been listening to it's player base or taking us seriously, and as loyal paying customers that hurts.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Sorry, but that is either a blatant lie or you were online at 4 in the morning on a weekday, which means of course the number of people will dwindle.

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Not 4 in the morning, no, I was on from about 8am-12pm CST, which (if I'm remembering my time zones correctly) is around 4-8pm over in Europe, unless I'm mistaken. And I'll readily admit my FC is pretty dead; 3.1 killed log-in rates there. But the other linkshells have been pretty consistently steady as far as participation goes.

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Originally Posted by jObEfiSH

Have you seen WoWs new Relic system plans? It is hands down beating the crap out of FFXIV, I haven't even played WoW in many many years and have zero desire to but they are actually trying something new. They are taking it places I didn't expect, taking your weapon to your actual class trainer and having you choose what path of skill points you put into your weapon to make it grow stronger. FFXIV could have actually TRIED something new, but they literally took what people did Year 1 and made it even more obnoxious. If people want to say that this is about people over reacting that is fine, but they should at least be able to provide SOME honest feedback on what is actually enjoyable about it before just discrediting everyone with an opinion about wanting the game to be better as people that just want to whine.

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WoW seems to be a better fit for you as a player!

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Originally Posted by Aarik

THAT, is what people are so pissed about. Happy?

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I'm against your attitude more than your opinion. You can hate the current patch cycle's relic grind, but don't use a dumb term like "white knight" on people who disagree with you. Also don't blantantly lie to try to prove a point.

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Originally Posted by jObEfiSH

Have you seen WoWs new Relic system plans? .

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Yes I have and I actually brought that up in my first post in the thread the grind would have been ok at least to me if the relic progressed along with your class in some way would be cool. I wasn't necessarily attacking you over your post atleast you actually have a idea what you want and not just throwing it out there. A live letter is coming up and it doesn't just seem like people on the NA side are the only ones with the opinion on these steps maybe they will talk about it.

Awesome topic and post. Thank you for posting.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

And yet I backed up my comments, and even responded to Atoli with my personal experience. Tell you what; how about you log onto every single server, go in their pfs, and take a screenshot. Pop them in here, with all of them being double-digits relic related, and I will eat my words, because you would have completely proved me wrong (at least right now, seeing as how I'm not logged on atm). I will even make a post completely taking back my statement. Yet until this happens, my statement remains; next time don't make such over-arching statements.

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I'm not going to do that because its 1AM EST. The moment for that has passed. My server, Coeurl, is consistenly bottom 10 population-wise and it just now dipped under 10 PFs as of now. I can assure you that a server like Mateus or Zalera is no longer sprouting double digits at this time :p

OP you seem to be missing that this complete joke of a relic quest is simply the final straw for many people.

1) The expansion was really just a large content patch with little in the way of major shakeups to general gameplay (which expansions are usually expected to bring). Besides flying there were ZERO new gameplay systems, no new progression systems, no new stats, nothing. Just more of the same. The new job skills were nice for a few weeks and then progression stagnated again in record time.

2) The delay to 3.1 left people burning out rapidly as they soon realised 3.0 was just a re-skin of what they'd already been doing in 2.x.

3) Alexander's delayed release was a disaster as the community pretty unanimously hated the raid and almost no one has even bothered to ATTEMPT savage, let alone cleared it. People simply have no interest in the raid.

4) 3.1 was easily the smallest patch since 2.0 (seriously, a delay that long and we get almost nothing?) Many were struggling to justify paying their sub at this point.

5) People are burnt out, player activity is at an all-time low, and we get a relic quest that requires us to run Alexander EIGHT-HUNDRED TIMES to complete it.

Can you see now why so many people are getting a little hysterical? Since June our subs have seemingly been going into a black hole as content patches have become later, smaller and lower in quality. The relic was the game's last chance for many players and SE made it WORSE than the old one. To top it all off the majority of players will not finish the relic before 3.2 renders it obsolete. What's the point?

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Originally Posted by Heskett

I'm against your attitude more than your opinion. You can hate the current patch cycle's relic grind, but don't use a dumb term like "white knight" on people who disagree with you. Also don't blantantly lie to try to prove a point.

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I use the term 'white knight' because that is what you are doing. Yes, there are those who simply rage and don't say why, but there are others who have legitimate complaints, and you sit there demeaning their argument and calling them "incredibly hysterical" I believe were the exact words. The definition of a 'white knight' as applied to the forum scenario: "On an internet forum, a person who defends a member who is clearly wrong, usually with the hopes of gaining brownie points with said member. Often seen as negative behavior."

In this scenario, the one you are defending would be either Square Enix or the development team, who quite frankly used a very dirty tactic to stretch subscription times to 3.2. They have claimed that they postponed the new relic due to it not being finished; quite frankly that is a poorly constructed lie. Why? Simple; the only thing they've added is the weapons themselves and the few items required for said relics. Everything else is completely recycled. They delayed relic for 3.15 so that they could stretch subscriptions as far as they could, it's dirty business, but business nonetheless.

Honestly speaking, I don't feel like it's worth doing the anima quests due to it's intense grinding nature with little to no reward to some classes. As a dragoon, I have basically thrown away all of my hard work on my Zeta for a weapon that's effectively gimping my dps because of the insane amount of Skillspeed and the big decrease in critical from the Eso and A4s weapon. And that's not the only dilemma I face with this whole Anima thing, there's basically no reason for me to keep the anima by the time the next update rolls in because more often than not, a better weapon is implemented, effectively making the anima weapon nothing more than a glorified expensive glamour.

If it had something like a skill effect or potency boost, then it may be worth keeping it, but as of now there's no reason to do it.

I wounder if most of the size of the team is some how starting to effect content how big are they again? I'm sure the current team is trying :confused: but I am wondering If the lack of man power (if there is a lack of it) is starting to show which is leading them to play it safe on alot of things.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

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I see your point so I'll be dropping this. Its not that I am defending SE, but its more that I am abhorrently against the behaviors of people on this forum. Good night.

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Originally Posted by GiseleValkyrie

I wounder if most of the size of the team is some how starting to effect content how big are they again? I'm sure the current team is trying :confused: but I am wondering If the lack of man power (if there is a lack of it) is starting to show which is leading them to play it safe on alot of things.

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Yoshi has made a few references to their team being too small to do certain things so it's becoming very obvious I think that they simply aren't receiving a big enough budget to actually keep the game going. I don't blame Yoshi and his team at all. I'm just incredibly saddened to see that SE is basically taking our subs and pocketing most of the money (or diverting it to FFXV and FFVII) instead of reinvesting it in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by jObEfiSH

taking your weapon to your actual class trainer and having you choose what path of skill points you put into your weapon to make it grow stronger.

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Yeah, so new and beating the crap out of FFXIV, especially since that is something similar to what we had like 5 stages back in our ARR relic quest already..x)
Sorry, got a bit sarcastic there. The point I'm trying to make is that the things an MMO can use for their relics is limited. As your example shows, even the praised things other MMOs do are nothing new or different either, it's still things FFXIV did as well or at least in a similar fashion.
The range of different things to do to finish the relic step has never been so vast; but of course it's going to involve the existing content in some form. After all, the relic quest is just that, a quest. It's not a big new patch that brings new dungeons and trials and raids with it. And the ways you can let the players interact with the existing content are limited, that's why we get the dreaded recycled relic steps.
I'm not happy with all of them either, but I want to commend SE on actually taking the problems into consideration that they faced before (way too incredibly low atma drop rates, RNG on dungeon runs, forcing players into just one specific type of content, including a trial that many many players couldn't clear at the time, and so on) and avoiding them this time. It's not perfect, but if you take the possibilities into consideration, they did fairly well.

But all of that doesn't matter, at least not in this thread, because it's not a discussion about what should/could be better about the relic quests (there are a billion other threads out there for that xD). This thread was more about the hysterical behaviour people had in most threads, and I'm pleased to see that those who do bring arguments about the relic quest to this thread do it in a calm manner :)

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Originally Posted by Aarik

And yet I backed up my comments, and even responded to Atoli with my personal experience. Tell you what; how about you log onto every single server, go in their pfs, and take a screenshot. Pop them in here, with all of them being double-digits relic related, and I will eat my words, because you would have completely proved me wrong (at least right now, seeing as how I'm not logged on atm). I will even make a post completely taking back my statement. Yet until this happens, my statement remains; next time don't make such over-arching statements.

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That's actually something I thought of xD
The time you stated was super busy, that's when I was doing the second step and for every dungeon I had about 6 different parties to choose from (well, except for me having the wrong role to join, but yeah xD). I remember very clearly how many first and third stage parties were there as well, because I refreshed df many times and scrolled through all the entries since I was using df to go through those dungeons.
But of course I didn't take any screenshots of it, because I never thought I'd need to prove that later on..?xD Now it's 7 am, everyone is either asleep or at work, so yeah. But I will take a screenshot today during the specified time :)
Maybe you did mess up the timezone after all? Ragnarok is such a lively server, even before 3.15, during 4-11 pm European Time we close to never have below 8-12 pf entries.

There is exactly as much crying in game. I've seen a full 12 hours of complaining in shout in every zone with fates. It's perfectly acceptable to be negative when something is bad. And before you say "don't do it lol" the problem here is there's nothing else to fucking DO.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Yoshi has made a few references to their team being too small to do certain things so it's becoming very obvious I think that they simply aren't receiving a big enough budget to actually keep the game going. I don't blame Yoshi and his team at all. I'm just incredibly saddened to see that SE is basically taking our subs and pocketing most of the money (or diverting it to FFXV and FFVII) instead of reinvesting it in FFXIV.

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I figure that might be the case iirc same thing happen when they where trying to save XIV it just seems truly boneheaded to me that If this is truly the case they are letting this happen. You would think they would put some thought into investing into this more seeing as how a MMO can and will destroy a company ffs XIV almost did it once lol.

I'm very happy that I get a reward at the end of a piece of estimated time I have not estimated, for doing stuff I have been doing since not only HW came out, but also later in ARR too. I get to build a collection of things from a variety of content for something new doing loads of old and a little recent sometimes (ex roul). Totally am not the person that has given up doing rouls, and stopped Alex normal because it's irrelevant and wasn't good to begin with... nope, not me.

I didn't want something new for doing something new. That original relic quest was so... boring, having to fight two monsters in instances unique to that quest, then doing the current highest level dungeons, then fighting the latest primals, ending with a current capped tome funded item to finish. That's right, them two monsters... I am glad there's no Hydra or Chimera equivalent, would have cost resources and been something new to encounter on this journey of improvement.

Oh... *ahem* I don't know, what's wrong with people, people are weird.

(yes, that's sarcasm)

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

You seem to be really defensive. Because you seem to have trouble people "speaking for you", would you mind telling me why you're aching?

As to answer your attempt at to dismantle me, I am having great fun chatting with my friends grinding Law and Alexander. I'm super thrilled with the spiral tendrils around the i200 :3 And I am extremely fond of the appearance of many of them! Especially my up and coming gun. I'm currently at 8/80 of my pieces necessary and am in a group of people who informed me themselves they're having a great time.

Step off, Buddy. You being facetious isn't cute or admirable.

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Sorry if my post actually came off as an attack, I went in with too much sarcasm and wasn't directly meant to be aimed at you. So if it seemed like I was attacking you directly I do apologize. It is more of a legit desire to see people posting what they ACTUALLY find good about the new design on this years relic weapon. Like what makes it stand out to you as a good design choice worth defending. These forums tend to make people way more over dramatic than necessary and having a actual debate or discourse without it turning to one extreme of the other is tricky. I am just trying to find a middle ground where the people defending the new grind can take a step back and actually see why people might be upset about it.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

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Well someone selling a single king cake for 5 million gil is certainly going to be happier than whoever actually buys it, I know that. I'd like to assume someone would actually not bite, but Mateus is a strange server where people will actually pay exorbitant amounts for stupid things.

>Never forget the fans
>Fun comes first

Man I wish they remembered what that old image was saying ;(

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Originally Posted by GiseleValkyrie

I figure that might be the case iirc same thing happen when they where trying to save XIV it just seems truly boneheaded to me that If this is truly the case they are letting this happen. You would think they would put some thought into investing into this more seeing as how a MMO can and will destroy a company ffs XIV almost did it once lol.

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The MMO industry has been plagued with poor business decisions by management for years. They seem to treat an MMO like any other project they're operating, cutting budgets to try and get the optimal return on the money put into it. Unfortunately with MMOs you can't afford to take the risk of cutting the budget too low. As soon as players feel they're not getting their money's worth they start to quit, and this tends to create a feedback loop of more and more people quitting. If Yoshi's team doesn't get the budget they truly need soon it's possible the game will enter an unrecoverable downward spiral.

I've played through the rise and fall of dozens of MMOs. Doomsaying posts are something of a cliche, I know, but as much as many want to claim it's only a vocal minority crying foul right now, when the ENTIRE forum AND reddit are flooded with absolutely nothing but outrage over a single issue that's usually a sign the game is on the brink. They can save it if they respond to this feedback quickly. If not, then a lot of players will lose faith and the population will begin a steady decline. It happens to every MMO eventually. I didn't expect to see it happen here so soon though.

You know I can agree there is some that are quite bitter to just be bitter and all but its not helping at all when some people feel the need to die on that hill for every mistake that might happen with this game. You can love the game and still call it out for its faults

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Yeah, so new and beating the crap out of FFXIV, especially since that is something similar to what we had like 5 stages back in our ARR relic quest already..x)
Sorry, got a bit sarcastic there. The point I'm trying to make is that the things an MMO can use for their relics is limited. As your example shows, even the praised things other MMOs do are nothing new or different either, it's still things FFXIV did as well or at least in a similar fashion.
The range of different things to do to finish the relic step has never been so vast; but of course it's going to involve the existing content in some form.

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While this is true, I can't be the only one wondering why they didn't design the relic quests more like they did the original upgrade quest? Fighting chimera, then hydra, then the HM primals....that was fun! I, and many others, had a blast. And while some finished it very quickly, most of us were stuck trying to beat ol' crag-butt for quite some time....yet once you did, you felt so very accomplished.The quests after that had nothing like that...they were just lifeless grinds, and you didn't feel accomplished at all. The same applies here. I personally won't do this relic, because I know myself well enough that I'll just feel empty and cheated once it's all done.

As for the time zone thing, perhaps; I've always been terrible at converting zones. But even though the post was directed at another, I'll still gladly recant my words about server activity. Still though, there are some very legitimate complaints on these forums (after you sift through the 'this game is gonna dieeeeee!' posts) that need to be addressed; hopefully in the upcoming live-letter, though I won't hold my breath on that.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I might as well make a new rule for myself. Instead of the old "Never play on patchday." one, I'll go with "Never visit the forums of a game on patchday." ;)

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You'll also have to lower your expectations, and then lower them again for good measure.

I'm not even sure people are still upset about it being a grind so much as it being literally every single Relic grind from 2.2+.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Yeah, so new and beating the crap out of FFXIV, especially since that is something similar to what we had like 5 stages back in our ARR relic quest already..x)
Sorry, got a bit sarcastic there. The point I'm trying to make is that the things an MMO can use for their relics is limited. As your example shows, even the praised things other MMOs do are nothing new or different either, it's still things FFXIV did as well or at least in a similar fashion.
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It is ok, these forums have a way of bringing the worst out and making people (myself included) more defensive than is necessary. The WoW reference is more of a look at the fact that they are adding new areas with actual new abilities that come into the weapon AND you can customize what specific blade design, handle design and even color you want. I haven't read up much on the game but I did read about that and like there was some cool design aspects to it. I am sure Final Fantasy can do way way better and that is my main gripe, Final Fantasy CAN do better, they ARE better than this and personally I feel like this is just a copy and paste of year 1. I do enjoy the story aspects surrounding the Anima weapons though, I do give that to them this year :P

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Salt_Icon.png

Especially on the last phase of relic. >_>

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Originally Posted by Conando

I'm not even sure people are still upset about it being a grind so much as it being literally every single Relic grind from 2.2+.

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I dunno, they didn't include light grinding! We can only assume they're saving that for the next step....10000 light with a bis/rav EX fight netting you 4 light seems about right :D

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I've played through the rise and fall of dozens of MMOs. Doomsaying posts are something of a cliche, I know, but when the ENTIRE forum AND reddit are flooded with absolutely nothing but outrage over a single issue that's usually a sign the game is on the brink.

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I've been on this forum for 4 1/2 years now, and many years in other MMOs forums before that. On every single patch day in every single MMO, there has been an outrage about some of the changes/additions and people freaking out calling it the beginningof the end (or the literal end) until they had completely forgotten about how they were up in arms a week later, usually after they actually played around with that feature for a while :)
So I wouldn't write off FFXIV just yet.
I completely agree on the first part of your comment though; and the thing that DOES worry me are the complaints that stick around. Not something like the general patchday panic (which I despise, that's why I made this thread in the first place xD but I know it's jsut the natural course of things) but concerns that stay vocal over a long amount of time, like the content drought...which IS something that could be avoided with adequate funding. More staff would also mean more creative ideas, and I don't think MMOs suffer from any of that (unless they go overboard, like Tanaka did with 1.0 :rolleyes:)

I love how everyone's complaining about it yet they still do it and keep their sub while they threaten SE to unsub behind their PCs/Ps4(3s) as they farm

I also love how people are speaking for others and saying how everyone else should unsub too

These relics have literally made my server's pf have like 15 pfs up which made me happy because my server is very inactive and people are showing up to do the relics. I for one have absutely zero interest in relics, so I sit back and watch the rage on the forums with a nice big bucket of popcorn and a smile :)