Strength Tanks

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Originally Posted by Laurima

OP must be a VIT tank with 0 knowledge on using tanking cooldowns appropriately.

If you need all that extra HP because you don't know how to actually use your cooldowns at the right time I suggest learning your job a bit, but if you haven't learnt that by Lvl60? ouch ><

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It's snotty people like this that are the reason why I quit tanking. How about just letting people play how they're comfortable already

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Originally Posted by OogaShaka

because a dead tank does zero dps.

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I've no comment on the topic, because I don't think it needs discussing in honesty.
However: A dead anything does zero dps. I see no reason why you had to include this in your statement.

as an old-fashioned healer, I genuinely wish there was a reason for tanks to actually need more VIT.

Sadly, that just doesn't exist, so instead we have healing DPS, tanking DPS, and full DPS.

Any HP higher than what's needed to survive isn't useful to have because it holds no benefit towards the raid. I mean it probably makes the healers job easier (maybe?) but that assumes the healer even needs the help.

Here's to hoping tanks can go back to tanking, so healers can go back to healing, so DPS can have their job back.

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Originally Posted by OogaShaka

It is not a healers responsibility to spend an insane amount of time and mana keeping you alive

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If you didn't want to heal, you shouldn't have queued as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's snotty people like this that are the reason why I quit tanking. How about just letting people play how they're comfortable already

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Because just playing how you're comfortable doesn't help you or other people. You should always be doing your best and trying to do better and go faster.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's snotty people like this that are the reason why I quit tanking. How about just letting people play how they're comfortable already

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A lot of people seem to be comfortable with pressing 123 and neglecting debuffs and DoTs, but that doesn't mean they aren't bad at the game.

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Originally Posted by RedHerb

Here's to hoping tanks can go back to tanking, so healers can go back to healing, so DPS can have their job back.

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You know what the problem with this is? That Dps are the most unreliable players in the game. The absolute hardest part of any end-game encounter (savage or otherwise) is not the Tank busters, or the AoE mitigation, or even the boss mechanics. The hardest part is finding 4 Dps who actually know how to rotate their highest possible Dps while not standing in stupid. I've seen enough fail Dps squads to know that you cannot trust the Dps to sign their checks on their own.

Eh, to each their own. I will say, an inexperienced tank shouldn't stack in STR. The extra HP buffer they get with VIT stacking can be good. But it doesn't change the fact of how much hp the healer has to heal. It only changes the amount of time a healer has to heal. But the difference will be a few thousand hp. If a tank loses 10k hp, you should be healing them regardless. Whether they have 5k or 8k hp left shouldn't be what makes you decide they need some more health. But STR tanks do infact hold aggro better in all regards. We can spend less time spamming away with flash (especially PLD's) as the only other 2 AoE based attacks we have are both longer cooldowns that can't be spammed. And we don't have an unlimited supply of mana either. If we run out and can't spam it anymore (and have really crappy ability to hold aggro) guess what? You're next on the get squished list with all the healing you'd have to be doing.

I think the main thing we have to be cognizant of is telling the newbie tanks to stack in STR automatically for end game. It still helps early though honestly, i would know, I did it. But I also have 2 builds, a STR build AND a VIT build. If I find my healers need the extra hp buff to keep me alive, I will switch.

..This has been done to death. I haven't come across a healer that has shat their pants from me being full STR..I mean after all, I have 18K HP as it is. Even with that much I use my self heals as much as possible to take the load off the healers(convalescence use especially).

I have healed full STR tanks THAT DON'T use their CDs. Those are the worst ever. So yeah a STR tank is great, in the right hands.

The TC has not replied once to this thread. Obvious bait.

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Originally Posted by RedHerb

Sadly, that just doesn't exist, so instead we have healing DPS, tanking DPS, and full DPS.

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At this juncture in the game, the only way to solve the problem is to rehaul the system.

1. Make accessories job-locked like gear.
2. Make healer and tank stances work like AST stances (once you enter combat, you can't switch).

I will bathe in the glorious healer and tank tears.

Had a tank an hour ago in A2. Weapon 205, left side 210. Right side 210 full STR. He just couldn't survive the trash mobs despite both healers spamming cure 2 / eye for an eye regen, asylum and whatever they have, even after they had to resort using Tetra and bene side to side. Healers were i200/205. And they were really good.

STR jewels should only be the monopoly of good tanks, dare I say fabulous ?

The problem is, all tanks think they are awesome at their job even when most of times THEY ARE NOT.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's snotty people like this that are the reason why I quit tanking. How about just letting people play how they're comfortable already

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The reason people are so snotty is quite frankly, the holier than thou attitude of the OP who is gonna come in here and set us all straight, when they obviously have no clue what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

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There should be an in game test to determine if a tank is fabulous enough to equip STR jewels. Erozea's Next Top Tank?

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's snotty people like this that are the reason why I quit tanking. How about just letting people play how they're comfortable already

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Didn't the OP just do the exact same thing: telling people how to play? What a foudroyant reply on your part.

People should indeed play how they want to. At the end of the day we can choose who to play with mostly. DF is somewhat a surprise who you will end up with though. Then again, DF content isn't exactly impossible when you run in to one of them VIT hero tanks.

I just hope new/starting tanks will try to figure out how tanks work on there own and try to filter random "advice".

I saw a funny pic on Facebook today and I thought that was the funniest image I'd seen all day....until I read this XD

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's snotty people like this that are the reason why I quit tanking. How about just letting people play how they're comfortable already

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You know you're saying this on a thread where the OP is literally telling people not to play how they're comfortable, right? RIGHT? Do you NOT see your own hypocrisy?

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Originally Posted by OogaShaka

Please stop, there is no sane reason why a tank should slot points into strength instead of vitality. You having less or the same hp as a dps is not an effective tank build because a dead tank does zero dps.

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Having a bloated HP pool doesn't improve tank DPS either, and doesn't really improve survivability by much once you're past a certain threshold. You shouldn't have less HP than a DPS anyway unless that DPS is more geared than you.

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If you say that you hold hate better then you must never flash or taunt , seriously if you do your threat generation rotation properly you will hold hate and once again when you die due to your low hp your threat generation goes to zero.

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Strength really does help for a Paladin when you're pulling a raid boss and the DPS are expected to open up a can of whoopass right off the bat. I have a serious dislike for tanking in full VIT gear now and would sooner spend the money for melds. When I pull in full Fending, I always feel like I'm riding the bleeding edge of hate throughout the opening phase of the fight whether I actually am or not.

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It is not a healers responsibility to spend an insane amount of time and mana keeping you alive when you choose not to talent properly, it's like healing a dps that thinks he is a tank.

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It's not at all like that, because a tank's defense values are significantly higher and they have defensive cooldowns.

VIT doesn't raise your defense at all. It just bloats your HP pool.

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In conclusion is you want to play a dps class then roll one otherwise learn to play as the role you selected which means you are there to take damage not cause massive damage to mobs and die in the process.

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If you do it right you can cause massive damage to mobs and not die in the process.

Defensive cooldowns. Learn to use them. Learn to love them.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Had a tank an hour ago in A2. Weapon 205, left side 210. Right side 210 full STR. He just couldn't survive the trash mobs despite both healers spamming cure 2 / eye for an eye regen, asylum and whatever they have, even after they had to resort using Tetra and bene side to side. Healers were i200/205. And they were really good.

STR jewels should only be the monopoly of good tanks, dare I say fabulous ?

The problem is, all tanks think they are awesome at their job even when most of times THEY ARE NOT.

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...Savage?

Because people were tanking like that back when it was i190 in savage.

So your options were it was the tank, or it was the healers, or it was the DPS not killing things.

Throwing 4k hit points onto that tank wouldn't make him easier to heal. It would have just given you about .5 seconds of breathing room.

High HP just gives a healer an illusion that they have health to play with to provide them more DPS time.

In my opinion balance is the best approach, i got all stats allocated in STR and use 3 VIT Acc and 2 DPS Acc. This way i got approx 19k hp and do decent dmg as a DRK.

I have a legitimate question, and don't want to start another thread. I see compelling arguments for and against str tanking. My question is, why is it even a thing, and why would end end game content require str tanking, when the very design of the game itself right down to the loot casting system spends all 60 levels telling tanks they can only need vit accesories, since that is the stat For Them. Why should players have to learn from verbal harassment in their first alex runs from some elitist raid grinder dudebros and not in game suggestions

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Originally Posted by OogaShaka

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The reasons :
1. As a tank you want to tank, you don't want your healer, MNK or DRG tanking instead
2. You have healers, cooldowns, you can see how much damage can do a tank buster then you just have to do the maths and be able to push buttons to know how much HP you need
3. A full VIT tank is currently a dead weight, the content we have at the moment requires tanks and healers to dps, also the less dmg you deal the more dmg you take because the longer you take damage and MP consumption for healers becomes unbearable
4. Why complaining about the dual role of tanks while it makes them funnier to play than just turtling.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

The problem is, all tanks think they are awesome at their job even when most of times THEY ARE NOT.

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Then your tank wasn't using cooldowns or your healers were afk because I tanked A2 normal at ilvl179 with 3 STR accessories and didn't died to trash.

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Originally Posted by Jeibird

I have a legitimate question, and don't want to start another thread. I see compelling arguments for and against str tanking. My question is, why is it even a thing, and why would end end game content require str tanking, when the very design of the game itself right down to the loot casting system spends all 60 levels telling tanks they can only need vit accesories, since that is the stat For Them. Why should players have to learn from verbal harassment in their first alex runs from some elitist raid grinder dudebros and not in game suggestions

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Because this game does a piss poor job of teaching you how to play your role. And this design you speak of is rife with hypocrisy. On one hand they put in super tight DPS checks and on the other hand they don't give you any legal method of optimizing your DPS. It's a mess and they're trying to remedy it by putting in some training / tutorial mode a few years late.

So if all the tanks who put their bonus stats into VIT instead of STR would get 717 HP. The math I used was 35x20.5=717.5. I was told at 60, 1 VIT=20.5 HP. Would that 717 save a tank? Probably not. I picked my accessories based off which ones had skill speed on them. So I have a mix of DPS and Tank jewelry. I'm probably loosing 2-3k HP on my DRK. Which I don't think would be a game changer. I suppose if you feel like the reason you're dying so much is your lack of HP, maybe you should watch your healers. That's probably more of the reason your dying rather than that missing 2k HP.

You guys have been feeding the troll for 7 pages without a single reply from OP. Let this catastrophe die please.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

You guys have been feeding the troll for 7 pages without a single reply from OP.

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OP is busy DPSing, since she already got and kept all the hate with the first post.

Best tank ever IMO.

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Originally Posted by Velox

At this juncture in the game, the only way to solve the problem is to rehaul the system.

1. Make accessories job-locked like gear.
2. Make healer and tank stances work like AST stances (once you enter combat, you can't switch).

I will bathe in the glorious healer and tank tears.

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Flawless suggestion there. Take away the freedom of choice of skilled players who are able to stance dance, and force them down to the level of the unskilled players that can't. :rolleyes:

Am I one of the few healers that prefers a 50% Slaying, 50% Fending tank?
Once you reach a certain "Effective Health" threshold; all else is overkill.
You'll have that extra DPS you want and the healer gets the extra health to heal you comfortably.

The system simply needs an overhaul so we don't get these never-ending discussions about what is preferred.

Have you tanked before? Just curious as if you would and also see the current tank gear you would know why some tanks use str gear.
If a player has proper use of cds it should be a non-issue.
Tanks are also now required to do so much dps for some content, so a pure or mostly vitality tank would more or less be carried by the group, lol
Myself i am not full str however

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Originally Posted by Velox

At this juncture in the game, the only way to solve the problem is to rehaul the system.

1. Make accessories job-locked like gear.
2. Make healer and tank stances work like AST stances (once you enter combat, you can't switch).

I will bathe in the glorious healer and tank tears.

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I agree that accessories should have been job locked from Day 1. However, it wouldn't have stopped Pentamelded Accessories... which have been stated as a primary reason that the devs are attempting to recalculate Tank Damage.

However, the stance thing is iffy. Locking stances mid fight will greatly limit fight design as Tank Swaps will no longer be as friendly to do. Tanks absolutely should be able to swap mid fight as it allows them to adapt to whether or not they are currently Tanking something. I believe that something along the lines of preventing a Tank from leaving their Tank Stance if they currently have the highest Enmity on a monster would better serve your ideals.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Had a tank an hour ago in A2. Weapon 205, left side 210. Right side 210 full STR. He just couldn't survive the trash mobs despite both healers spamming cure 2 / eye for an eye regen, asylum and whatever they have, even after they had to resort using Tetra and bene side to side. Healers were i200/205. And they were really good.

STR jewels should only be the monopoly of good tanks, dare I say fabulous ?

The problem is, all tanks think they are awesome at their job even when most of times THEY ARE NOT.

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No cooldowns obviously, and you didn't say what kind of tank it was. If a healer is going all out on a tank on trash mobs, the issue is really obvious and not having anything to do with STR or VIT gear(though they could also be undergeared but that isn't the case here).

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Originally Posted by Februs

You know what the problem with this is? That Dps are the most unreliable players in the game. The absolute hardest part of any end-game encounter (savage or otherwise) is not the Tank busters, or the AoE mitigation, or even the boss mechanics. The hardest part is finding 4 Dps who actually know how to rotate their highest possible Dps while not standing in stupid. I've seen enough fail Dps squads to know that you cannot trust the Dps to sign their checks on their own.

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I could, in all honesty say the same about tanks and healers in their own roles. Though, I don't trust any player unless I've played with you before. I expect everyone to fall flat on their face. Unless you are well known (in a good way) or I'm proven otherwise. (Or someone I trust vouches for the person). If they do prove me wrong, I am pleasently surprised.

Nature of the game I suppse at this point.

Does this Strength Tank strategy work well from level 1 - 59 as long as you use your cooldowns well or is this only suited to level 60 setups?

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Originally Posted by Tanama

Does this Strength Tank strategy work well from level 1 - 59 as long as you use your cooldowns well or is this only suited to level 60 setups?

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It works at every level just fine.

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Originally Posted by DukeGr

In my opinion balance is the best approach, i got all stats allocated in STR and use 3 VIT Acc and 2 DPS Acc. This way i got approx 19k hp and do decent dmg as a DRK.

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I'm going to start my tanking career as half and half as well once I hit 60 on DRK. Although I think it might be better to put all points in VIT instead and swap in one more dps accessory. That way the secondary stats in gear are better because you have less parry (it's apparently useless). VIT points have worked fine for me so far when leveling, it's not like DRK has aggro problems lol.

As a healer I prefer tanks with at least a few VIT jewels if they are not overgeared. The extra HP buffer allows me to put dots on trash when it matters (i.e. when mobs are still at full health), leading to a much bigger dps increase than some STR on a tank. It also helps me to minimize overhealing, which in turn helps me dps more.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

Does this Strength Tank strategy work well from level 1 - 59 as long as you use your cooldowns well or is this only suited to level 60 setups?

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It works depending on the class and level.

For example, warriors in defiance gain 25% more HP and 20% more healing. If you were to turn it off (pre-deliverance levels) or switch stance, then you could pop Thrill of Battle with Convalescence to gain 20% HP and healing. You would gain around the same effective HP with the same amount of healing while being in your DPS stance, as if nothing changed but suddenly you do more damage. Alternatively, you could just pop vengence while in your dps stance to achieve the same thing.

Point being, using those big cooldowns is the main idea of how a strength tank compensates for their lack of extra padding. If you don't have such cooldowns, then it's best to play it a little safe and stay in your tank stance with some added vit accessories.

I can't help but agree with OP. I especially hate seeing any tank in full strength gear and not using tank stance. Lately, I've this a lot on PLD but on a lot of tanks in general. If I ask them to put on vit gear and they refuse then, I purposely let them die when in a dungeon when I play healer and see this. I know this is the wrong attitude because it wipes the party every time, but some people need to be taught a lesson in humility the hard way. Tired of this foolishness.

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Originally Posted by Marianno

I can't help but agree with OP. I especially hate seeing any tank in full strength gear and not using tank stance. Lately, I've this a lot on PLD but on a lot of tanks in general. If I ask them to put on vit gear and they refuse then, I purposely let them die when in a dungeon when I play healer and see this. I know this is the wrong attitude because it wipes the party every time, but some people need to be taught a lesson in humility the hard way. Tired of this foolishness.

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You at least do the first 1 or 2 pulls to see if they're actually a good str tank, or a trash str tanks right?