Thoughs on removing cross class skills and adding 5 new skills for each job come 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I've never crossed Mercy Stroke as a Dragoon or Lancer for even a single second.

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[SCREAMS INTERNALLY]


(People use Mercy Stroke as a free oGCD execute for the damage, not for the HP regen. It's easily the most valuable cross-class ability from MRD.)

Also begs the question what they are crossclassing...

In order of importance for drg: Internal Release, Mercy Stroke, Second Wind, Mantra, Bloodbath

If you're not using Mercy Stroke you're either using foresight, featherfoot, skull sunder, fracture, haymaker....all of which are just bad. Foresight arguably not bad but drg is highest melee defense anyway, it's not gonna make or break anything that's not breaking any other dps.

I might be missing something here, but your idea for skill bloat is to basically not give any new skills for one expansion? I don't even understand what the purpose of replacing skill X from class Y with an identical job skill Z is, other than getting rid of cross-class skills just because.

That doesnt sound fun. I rather have them make something to upgrade our current skills/add traits or something similar.

Oh right i didn't think about the free raise from fairy...
And putting a CD on it prevent multiple raise
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Hum...

A lot of people don't want skills. But when time comes around, when we get levels and no new skills in 4.0 people will be raging that their class didn't change.

I think we should get 5 levels. 65, 3 new skills, 5 new traits. 3 skills doesn't bloat all too much. I think it would fill up 3 hotbars perfectly for MOST classes. RIP SCH/SMN/BRD

I don't mind them adding new skills if they deprecate some of the others; for example, Stone 3 wasn't a problem as I just threw Stone 2 on an alternate bar for when I'm synced. It's when they keep adding a bunch of equally-desirable spells with no overlap with others that things get really untidy.

I agree that traits are less annoying when synced than locking spells away entirely.

Not really in favour of the idea of removing cross class skills for the reasons other people are stating. Swiftcast, for example, isn't just a quick raise to me; it's a constant lifesaver in PVP and arguably more important than a good chunk of my actual job-specific toolkit on its own. Giving a faster raise wouldn't be a very attractive trade-off. You would struggle to give me anything that compares other than an even-stronger version of the exact same ability, which renders the task pointless.

If we could upgrade or combine cross class skills we already unlocked to make new ones, maybe there's some potential there. Especially for the jobs which don't actually have a full set of great cross class skills to choose from anyway. I know my poor MCH wouldn't mind having some of those important self-buffs combined to save on crossbar space and fiddling mid-fight.

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Originally Posted by HorseBoots

[SCREAMS INTERNALLY]


(People use Mercy Stroke as a free oGCD execute for the damage, not for the HP regen. It's easily the most valuable cross-class ability from MRD.)

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don't worry, not all dragoons are bad.

I would prefer new traits that modify skills we have already. For instance Stone II is only really used now while leveling or level capped, a trait could change that so the skill would be useful again. From a whm perspective I would like to avoid an XI situation where I'd have dozens of spells learned at cap but only used a fraction of them regularly, since many of them were just more powerful versions of the same spell.

I really don't think this would be a good idea at all.

If you remove cross class skills and replace them with 5 job specific skills, you're creating skill bloat on the jobs, but more importantly removing the last vestige of character customization.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

don't worry, not all dragoons are bad.

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Funny, my DoT combo that I use with my Jump rotation easily causes consistent dammage. Mercy Stroke does not as I have to many other options. Between keeping Debuff on the opponent, dodging, and keeping procs active there is no damage gain. By the time mercy stroke's cool down is over I have two more jumps off cool down.

There's the "Meta" but then there's being cheep. I see DRGs Crossing Feather Foot more than I see mercy stroke. (A few times vs NEVER) And while Fracture is not exactly meta it is usually feather foot or mantra it's swaped for. Mercy Stroke even on warrior is only a slight dammge boost on a near dead trash mob. I'm battling EX Primals, Raid Bosses, and am my FC's resident God Slayer since I'm the first to run any new content and usually the only one to clear it.

So Mercy Stroke bing a Dps Pat on the butt that can only be used below 20% makes it less than worthless

I'd much rather them add the PvP skills into 4.0 as PvE skills instead of recreating the same skill to replace cross class skills in 4.0

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I've never crossed Mercy Stroke as a Dragoon or Lancer for even a single second. My DRG Cross Skills are, Second Wind, Internal Release, Fracture, Foresight, and Bloodbath. Mercy Stroke is to situational and far less effective than anything else in our arsenal. Though if we had a Sixth Slot I'd consider crossing Mantra for when no MNK was present.

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How is a guaranteed 200 potency every time a boss drops below 20% HP situational? It's more damage and as a DPS that's literally all that matters. Most unavoidable damage in the game is Magical, so Foresight is literally the definition of situational. and Fracture is crap-tier on anything but Warrior.

to me you are proposing something far too discombobulated than what we currently have. You want to trade out one skill for another which basically fixes nothing, and makes things more complex (in a sense from a dev pov). YOu aren't eliminating skill bloat with your suggestions, you are just eliminating cross class abilities.

So the point is what exactly?

Also your voke suggestions for warrior dont help snap agro, which is what provoke is for.

Skill bloat is skill bloat and taking out cross class abilities and adding individual skills to compensate the loss fixes nothing.

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Originally Posted by Daenarys_Targaryen

Im trying to say this in a nice way. But I think its a terrible idea. Have SE go to the trouble of doing all that work just to give us abilities we already have, and honestly works completely fine at the moment (speaking from tank perspective, ive played PLD and WAR and am quite happy with how it works). I would much prefer SE (hopefully) puts more time in to needed things like stop recycling content, give us better raids, dungeons etc the list could go on for 4.0 then spend the time fixing something that isnt broken.

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The only real required cross-class ability for a tank is Provoke, which means leveling GLA. PLD technically doesn't need Mercy Stroke or Bloodbath or Foresight, and DRK having its own versions of certain skills (for example, they don't need to get Flash from GLA because they have their own version) tells me the devs are trying to get away from that.

This said, it would be more noticeable on the melee DPS because most of them rely on Invigorate. Stuff like Blood for Blood can be made up for in other areas, but you'd need to either give the other melee abilities that work like Invigorate or create a unique mechanic for TP recovery for each melee DPS.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

As a MCH, I already don't have a self heal, barely a defensive buff, or offensive one for that matter. Please don't take what little I have away from me unless you'll offer something better.

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You just explained why I stopped playing MCH as soon as I hit 60. T_T

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Originally Posted by SinisterJointss

to me you are proposing something far too discombobulated than what we currently have. You want to trade out one skill for another which basically fixes nothing, and makes things more complex (in a sense from a dev pov). YOu aren't eliminating skill bloat with your suggestions, you are just eliminating cross class abilities.

So the point is what exactly?

Also your voke suggestions for warrior dont help snap agro, which is what provoke is for.

Skill bloat is skill bloat and taking out cross class abilities and adding individual skills to compensate the loss fixes nothing.

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well the thing is as ive tried to explain atm i dont see any major changes as early as 4.0 my suggestion was more an idea to deal with a possible issue by 4.0 atleast until later when bigger changes will be needed but of course that being said theres plenty of ways they could deal with it i just think it wouldnt be such a bad idea to do this as

A. you get rid of cross classes which many skills have shown not to be very useful
B. adding needed skills to the job removes an issue in which shouldnt have been there from the get go
C. allows them to build skills in place of cross class skills that are more personalized to the skills your job has (that means more skill synergy)

ow and about my provoke idea it does actually address snap aggro as i stated in it when used on a target the target ignores the hate list and attacks you for the time the skill is on them all thats different is the need to build aggro which is greatly increased and can be broken if any type of provoke skill is used but that being said even if the skill isnt perfect i was just listing a possible example as to what i meant.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

There's the "Meta" but then there's being cheep. I see DRGs Crossing Feather Foot more than I see mercy stroke. (A few times vs NEVER) And while Fracture is not exactly meta it is usually feather foot or mantra it's swaped for. Mercy Stroke even on warrior is only a slight dammge boost on a near dead trash mob. I'm battling EX Primals, Raid Bosses, and am my FC's resident God Slayer since I'm the first to run any new content and usually the only one to clear it.

So Mercy Stroke bing a Dps Pat on the butt that can only be used below 20% makes it less than worthless

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Pft, god slayer? Maybe with echo/unsynch, lol.

Here's why we don't use Fracture in our rotation:


1) There's no good way to work it into the rotation. Adding it in after Phleb will cause your Heavy Thrust to run off, losing potency on the reapplication of it before going back into your Chaos Thrust combo rotation.

2) It causes your DoT's to fall off. The only one it assists, slightly, is Chaos thrust, reducing the clip from roughly 8-9 seconds down to 3~. The only way to prevent htis lost uptime is to clip your own DPS, resulting in a loss.
3) It's a massive TP sink. You are dumping 80 TP on a DPS wash/loss. At best, your DPS is breaking even with a good Dragoon. At worst, you're annoying your bard 'cause he has to sing Paeoen for you sooner.
4) It delays the uptime on your Fang and Claw / Wheeling thrust. Losing out on that Geirskogul potency because you're constantly pushing back the buff by 3 seconds every time you re-up your Fracture.

The only possible reason I would EVER cross fracture, is if I knew that I had to break off the boss for a period of time and wanted to let something Tick and I couldn't get a strong hit in. I.E, if I had completed a Fang and Claw and was about to run away, and wanted to put up a Fracture, that might be a way to add a little DPS, 'cause it's a strong single-potency hit. But it's not good for the Dragoon rotation.

But hey, if that's not good enough for you, I'd be happy to go head-to-head with you. I won't even use Mercy Stroke to boost my DPS. I'll literally just not use fracture and have a friend who can tell us what our numbers are. But I doubt you'd listen to that, "Mister God-Slayer" (Oh god I can't even hold back giggling typing that.)

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I'd much rather them add the PvP skills into 4.0 as PvE skills instead of recreating the same skill to replace cross class skills in 4.0

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OH yes 45% crit not withstanding from crit sec itself.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

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Well, i'm actually a big proponent of 1v1 PVP. Since we share a server the minute solo matches are allowed in the Wolves Den I'll be happy to make you my first PK. And I've never had to rely on a bard. have had to Tank on my own from stupid pulls though. Always better to take the beating than let the healer take it. Maybe when I'm actually capable of DPSing and nothing else I'll consider BS rotations that can only be measured with illegal programs. Suppose you're one of those that thinks DET doesn't matter since Blood of the Dragon was added too? Yes, I think a PVP match would be the only way to settle it. And Bring anything you want. Mercy Stroke, Potions, Icirrus Feathers, Won't matter after I PK you in the Arena.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Won't matter after I PK you in the Arena.

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PVP and DPS are not the same thing... XD I won't even pretend to be good at PVP, "Mister God-Slayer" (PFFFFFFFFFFFT) and the fact that your reaction to directly comparing numbers (I'd lower my gear level to yours if need be) is "OMG FYTE ME 1 ON 1" without any actual rebuttle... just shows how much of an emberassment to Dragoons you are. XD

I don't know any Dragoons that say DET doesn't matter... But I guess that's a perspective of people you meet.

I can see the cross-class system getting reworked for 4.0. They'd have to make some major changes, but they need to anyway to address the current "skill-bloat." They may add, takeaway, and/or combine skills as long as they keep jobs mostly balanced. Many people are afraid of change; I, however, look forward to the possibility of fresh feeling jobs in the next expansion.

And please, SE, get rid of classes.(and separate SMN and SCH once and for all.) Classes don't belong in an FF game, and they only confuse new players.

Unless they rethink this. I will run out of space on my bars.


Also no provoke tank swap not happening. don't need 3 things that all do the same things.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

PVP and DPS are not the same thing... XD I won't even pretend to be good at PVP, "Mister God-Slayer" (PFFFFFFFFFFFT) and the fact that your reaction to directly comparing numbers (I'd lower my gear level to yours if need be) is "OMG FYTE ME 1 ON 1" without any actual rebuttle... just shows how much of an emberassment to Dragoons you are. XD

I don't know any Dragoons that say DET doesn't matter... But I guess that's a perspective of people you meet.

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I thought you were challenging me in that last paragraph? If not then I apologize for misreading that. But being as console player don't have tracking programs, and PC Parser are illegal programs by extension, how would this comparison work? I smack the target dummy and take your word for it? That's hardly an objective way to determine it. And I'll be the first to admit I'm garbage in PvP as well. Most people seem to be, especially in frontlines. Seem like the good Sir Eidolon though is a petulant teenager the way he responds to opposition.

Let me expose the truth on Parser futility. The "Dps Checks" have a minimum number required as do all content stat checks, but they are actually quite low. The Minimum Item Level is the only point where rotation and numbers matter more than dodging and paying attention. Anything else exceeding the gear requirement is more than enough. My item level being 200 with my Det and Crit both barley under 600, my accuracy well over 600, and nearly 1100 STR far exceeds nearly all stat checks with the exception of Thorden EX who's minimum DPS requirement is a little higher than usual. Savage Alexander, all of the Coils, and even the 8 EX primals are more about paying attention and staying in synch as a team. And the big kicker, is that individual DPS is not what is measured but GROUP DPS. So as long as the team as a whole is meeting the check all you have to do is, to quote so many tanks, "Dodge and Don't Die."

So to recap, having maybe a few digits less than a single lulgoon is irrelevant when we're all dead. And if no one dies when the group as a whole meets the checks, instant win. Your DPS data is irrelevant. Unless the Instant wipe Hard Enrage activates you meet the minimum requirements. Then all you need to do is stay alive. If you passed the check but died anyway then no amount of gear or DPS increase will fix that. A Dead Player's DPS is Zero after all.

But I digress, perhaps it would be far better to have a TRUE specialized job by abolishing the cross skill system. Truth be told, I could do with out the melee cross skills. And mages could simply have a roll over skill tacked on like how Stoneskin 2 was added. Then maybe these "Meta" arguments would end and we could all be like WoW where we have that One Skill we're good for and just sit back in the zerg till it's time to fire. Oh how interesting that would be, like looking through Chocobo Crap for Gysahl Greens.

Long story short, If I wanted to see a train wreak of an MMO with zero customization and all the stat and skill choices made for me, I'd play maplestory instead. The Cross skills are to make up for gaps in the unite not stand us out as lone wolves. I take a fire ball to the face and I'm dead on arrival, A Paladin how ever can eat it and keep going. he goes down though and I can survive long enough for the healer to rez him and the tank to regain control. This is ultimately a Unit vs Lone Wolf argument and thus a farce since this is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game aka a Team effort. So when lone wolves stop dieing in raids for the sake of their DPS then I'll allow critiques on my skill choices.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Could probably have the skill learned via a 62 quest, but make the level of the skill itself level 20.

sorta like how when you do AST, you do one quest to unlock the job at 30, but they still have pre-30 skills for levelsynch balancing.

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A WHM at lv 59 would still not have that skill.
For ASt with lv1-30 skills it work because the AST start with lv 30.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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lol... 'petulant teenager'... You are really bad at appologising for misunderstandings if you through out an insult in t he same base. I'll just accept your appology and move on - that's easy enough to do, "Sir God Slayer" (PFFFFFFFFFFFF)


Nah, I meant like, a training dummy so we can kinda clean up the rotation a bit. I tend to work with a lot of dragoons on their rotation. And I'm rarely outdone in content on damage because I can handle a good rotation and mechanics at the same time. Thordan EX is just a recent example - I've always been a pretty exemplary player of Mechanics > DPS and that MNK's need to get off their lazy ***'s and do some with the rest of the group (Nothing funnier than a MNK who doesnt' do mechanics doing less DPS than a DRG though.)

Here's my issue with you, however:


Not a single bit of this supports the idea that "Mercy Stroke is useless!" This is what everyone was calling you out on - that oyu literally, in the same breath, try to call a staple skill of anyone who actually pushes their numbers 'useless' while simultaneously toting how your "Fracture" is better than it. You offer up nothing to support contrary to this - and instead, you're now going into a tangent about lack of customization and how min/maxers don't matter and that all that matters is group dps and mechanics.

So I'm not sure where your tangent came from. It just seems to be a sidebar out of desperation and a failure to reaise just why people are pointing out your choice in cross classes are atrocious (Though I do agree with you, to an extent - as I stated myself. Featherfoot is lul-worthy.)

Heck, even the fact that you call another dragoon "Lulgoon" in your own post... I dunno man. There's just something about your complete lack of an arguement that doesn't sit well with me.

You change gears more than the Fast and the Furious series.

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Originally Posted by Felis

A WHM at lv 59 would still not have that skill.
For ASt with lv1-30 skills it work because the AST start with lv 30.

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hmn... you're definitely right.

Well, it's not like they have to have the skill learned via quest. I think that they can unlock it via the job just like a leveling skill - so once you hit 20, it's yours? That'd be a pretty good alternative, and would help with the issue of low-level players not having enough buttons to press (Looking at you, sastasha!)

WTF is the OP thinking. This is a terrible idea..... Just pure no. Where is the face palm gifs. No to the original post.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

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Dude, I am so in love with you. I'm still working on Dragoon, but I swear on Thor's frosty nipples that this is the most well-organized explanation of cross-class DPS maximization for them that I've ever seen. The fact that you're schooling someone with provable numbers is just icing on the cake.

@Kaiser - "Team DPS" is definitely a thing. But to NOT maximize your points puts an inherent strain on the rest of the team.

Your job is to DPS to the best of your ability. If your DPS wanes, the likelihood of failure increases. If everyone has your same attitude, pushing only what they deem to be 'reasonable' numbers, that likelihood CONTINUES to increase. That's the only reason people use Parsers, so they can maximize their output and can make sure everything moves smoothly.

If your whole team fails, but your bonus DPS from maximizing could have put you over the threshold, what's your excuse?

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

I'd much rather them add the PvP skills into 4.0 as PvE skills instead of recreating the same skill to replace cross class skills in 4.0

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Oh gods give me Purify on my PLD.