Hillarity.

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Originally Posted by zosia

It is, you can get more secondary stats on diadem 210 gear than you can get on other 210 pieces, how do you not know this? Not to mention favorable itemization is a huge thing to consider (acc on healer gear, avoiding undesirable secondary stats).

I guess this is what happens when you debate with someone who does not actually do the content.

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The odds of you getting the gear for your job and bis is extremely low. All the stats are random. Yes you can 210 gear with high mind but if you're determination or crit is low it maybe not be his. Having extra secondary stats doesn't automatically make it bis.

The only people that really complained about Diadem were the people who did endgame Savage. M-Muh 210 gear.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The original statement was 1 ilvl 210 piece per week as a lockout, to prevent people from gearing up very quickly with better gear than Alex Savage, essentially best in slot gear, so that was the starting point. I simply wanted to point out, as I have done, that suck a lockout would destroy Diadem....

Once again the specter of raiders insecure about casual players having good gear rears it's ugly head.

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Once again, a poster projects what they want on the person they are speaking with so they can make baseless assumptions?

Actually, I do not partake in end game raids in this game. While I have in others, I do not have to consistency with available times to join a static. Also, the BIS gear grind has made me burn out on games, so I am taking a different approach to this one.

But that aside, it would far from destroy diadem, people would probably run it more, because they would be more picky about the gear they are looking for, so they would pass on things until they got that golden piece. Which isn't too rare, but rare enough to keep things going.

I really don't see how you rationalize that a lock out would make it worse, do you think they are talking about locking people out after one run? I could see your logic if that was the case. Its not like you have to roll on a piece that drops you know.

To be totally honest, I don't really care what gear people have. Maybe that's why I consider a lockout on par with other content to be fair. I'm not basing my argument on what I want. But like I said earlier, lock outs come with their own issues, like people dropping as soon as they get their loot, so a work around would have to happen.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Yeah, and I have around 5 pieces of BiS gear with amazing stats from admittedly spamming my rotation.

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Thats whats really annoying about changes like this. Now others that didn't jump on the Diadem bandwagon before nerf have to spend alot more time for an SE screw up.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

The odds of you getting the gear for your job and bis is extremely low. All the stats are random. Yes you can 210 gear with high mind but if you're determination or crit is low it maybe not be his. Having extra secondary stats doesn't automatically make it bis.

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I easily see at least one bis 210 every time I do diadem hard. They are not as rare as you think.

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Originally Posted by zosia

And it does not matter when the casual players no life it and spend all day in diadem. You're ignoring the fact that all the gear rewards in all the other content is invalidated by diadem.

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How can you possibly say I ignore that when one of my first posts in thi discussion demonstrated how running Diadem 24/7 would still result in a very low chance of obtaing what you fear?

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Thats whats really annoying about changes like this. Now others that didn't jump on the Diadem bandwagon before nerf have to spend alot more time for an SE screw up.

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Anecdotal cases of people who have great fortune, don't alter the facts about rarity of gear, that is the nature of outcomes based on RNG. For every person who has acquired some good pieces, there are hundreds with none.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Anecdotal cases of people who have great fortune, don't alter the facts about rarity of gear, that is the nature of outcomes based on RNG. For every person who has acquired some good pieces, there are hundreds with none.

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where is your proof that this gear is so rare? I often see amazing 210 pieces in hard mode. At least one BiS per run out of all the gold chest.

Also, your statements are just as anecdotal. You have no sample size to back up any of your claims. You're simply being as presumptuous as the people you are accusing.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

The only people that really complained about Diadem were the people who did endgame Savage. M-Muh 210 gear.

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All I see in your response is "waaaah people don't like my sense of entitlement, I love doing no work for all the rewards"

See, anyone can be hyperbolic and it adds nothing of value. Thanks for your contribution.

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Originally Posted by zosia

I easily see at least one bis 210 every time I do diadem. They are not as rare as you think.

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Saw a 2xNIN chests, one Caster chest, and a DRG legs that were all great last run, also a pretty good Heal chest. I just never see anything that great in the classes I am running.

Jus throwing this out here, let's look at what BiS means for a DPS class and how RNGeesus bestows us in Diadem.

210 Chest/Pants = 150+ in substats divided into 2 substats.
210 Head/Hands/Boots = 98~99 in substats.
210 Belts = 70+ in substats.
210 Accessories = Around 70~75 in substats.

Now, it is totally possible to get a great monster piece from Diadem. My current Diadem chest is 240+ in substats. Which is a total beast.
But at what cost? Since launch I ran Diadem about 20 times, during those runs I ran into about 5 BRD 210 pieces. 3 were totally useless with less than 40 substats or none at all, 1 was the previously mentioned chest and 1 is boots with only 110 in substats.

Let's see how RNG works with distributing 210 gear in Diadem.
Did a Star spawn? > Did you manage to get a gold chest? > Is the loot for your class? > Then we get to the holy grail of RNG, the distribution of substats. Which ranges from 0~??? substats.

So let's start off with a case scenario. 210 Gordian hands for BRD is CRT58 and SS41. During Diadem you find a hand that has all 4 substats ranging from 20-30 each stat, CRT being ~25 and SS ~20. This would not technically make it BiS over the Gordian hands. Specially if you have enough ACC, the bonus DET would not cover the loss of CRT and SS.
It is possible to find a better piece, but to find one which has close stats to the Gordian piece and more, would be detrimentally rare.
I wouldn't consider myself as the luckiest bunch in the crowd, but I spent around 20 runs (1800 hours) running the full 90 minutes. With that effort I found myself one beastly piece, I gained 83 DET and 48ss, but I lost 50ACC and 15 crit.

To get 'the' perfect piece without any loss for every slot for your class... would take endless grinding.
Which will only be replaced with the next big update. Then the cycle begins again.

Some people say 'good' 210 pieces are easy to get, but are they REALLY BiS? I personally have seen people run around with a full 210 Diadem set left to right, but after careful observation, the numbers did not add up.
For example I found BRD with a full pink set. Almost every piece had crit. You would think amazing right? After actually doing the math, that player actually had less crit than my current BiS where I only use 2 pink pieces.

Practically speaking, it will be mind numbing to say the least, to get all perfect pieces. Your keyboard will probably reach the end of its lifetime by the time you get them all.

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Originally Posted by zosia

I easily see at least one bis 210 every time I do diadem hard. They are not as rare as you think.

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Yes you may see one per run but did you get it? That was one drop for eight people for two hours worth of time. It's called RNG some people have great luck others don't. I have done multiple runs and only got one piece of 210 that may not be bis. Out of that entire run only three pieces of 210 gear dropped. People act like you are guaranteed bis gear every time you step foot in there. It's mostly luck and a lot of time.

The gear isn't actually very rare at all.. or at least wasn't before the update. I have multiple BiS gear from Diadem and so do my FC members to the point that were gearing other classes with the gear. It's not that rare.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Anecdotal cases of people who have great fortune, don't alter the facts about rarity of gear, that is the nature of outcomes based on RNG. For every person who has acquired some good pieces, there are hundreds with none.

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Its not rare when you see people with full 210 a week into the new patch. Not just a couple quite a few. First day I saw several FC members laughing as they linked 210 pieces they were getting lol.

So ya not rare. Anecdotal, sure what isn't in an mmo. But if it was rare the most people would have is a few pieces at this stage if they were super lucky.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

Yes you may see one per run but did you get it? That was one drop for eight people for two hours worth of time. It's called RNG some people have great luck others don't. I have done multiple runs and only got one piece of 210 that may not be bis. Out of that entire run only three pieces of 210 gear dropped. People act like you are guaranteed bis gear every time you step foot in there. It's mostly luck and a lot of time.

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Yes, I have won some. Considering it had better stats than my savage gear, it was worth the 1.5* hours of time (not two). You know how many hours people have spent in savage? I am willing to bet it's been more that diadem thus far. The risk vs reward in this game is completely off basis.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

The gear isn't actually very rare at all.. or at least wasn't before the update. I have multiple BiS gear from Diadem and so do my FC members to the point that were gearing other classes with the gear. It's not that rare.

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QFT ^

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Its not rare when you see people with full 210 a week into the new patch. Not just a couple quite a few. First day I saw several FC members laughing as they linked 210 pieces they were getting lol.

So ya not rare. Anecdotal, sure what isn't in an mmo. But if it was rare the most people would have is a few pieces at this stage if they were super lucky.

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and QFT ^^^

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Originally Posted by Riki_Namu

Its not rare when you see people with full 210 a week into the new patch. Not just a couple quite a few. First day I saw several FC members laughing as they linked 210 pieces they were getting lol.

So ya not rare. Anecdotal, sure what isn't in an mmo. But if it was rare the most people would have is a few pieces at this stage if they were super lucky.

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I still haven't seen anyone with full 210 Daidem gear on my server or in dungeon runs. The most I've seen is five pieces on one prison. The most 210 gear I've seen drop in one run was 3-4. For me it was rare. Getting one 210 drop out of five full runs which equals to 7.5 hours of playing is not that great. I guess RNG just hates me lol at that rate it would take me forever to a full set of 210 not calculating the stats, just any 210 gear.


Anyways I hope they change it from a zergfest to actual exploring.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

I still haven't seen anyone with full 210 Daidem gear on my server or in dungeon runs. The most I've seen is five pieces on one prison. The most 210 gear I've seen drop in one run was 3-4. For me it was rare. Getting one 210 drop out of five full runs which equals to 7.5 hours of playing is not that great. I guess RNG just hates me lol at that rate it would take me forever to a full set of 210 not calculating the stats, just any 210 gear.


Anyways I hope they change it from a zergfest to actual exploring.

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You're doing it wrong, in diadem hard (currently after the nerf) it's still easy to get 7-10 gold chests.

Also, you complain about working for 7.5 hours to get one 210. How about the close to 100 hours it takes to clear alex savage? I bet that 100 hours is even greater for some groups. 100ish hours spent only to have your gear invalidated by sky hunts.

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Originally Posted by zosia

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"I'm doing it wrong". Well I could swear it was group effort but blame me for not know how to get the maximum amount of chest out of each run. I was just giving my experience from running with different groups. Everyone has different experiences in the game. Yes you devoted time to clear that content because you wanted to. You beat it. That's the reward for your time an effort getting gear that only people who beat it can wear is your trophy to show of. I could see if the were giving out the exact same gear as savage but they are not. Your gear and my gear will always be different. Everyone will know you beat it and I didn't. Gear is being replaced at lighting speed now. Most people have realized this and that's why they don't raid. Gear last long. If you don't want to be miserable playing this game. Raid for self satisfaction and not gear because you will always be pissed when something better comes along.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

"I'm doing it wrong". Well I could swear it was group effort but blame me for not know how to get the maximum amount of chest out of each run. I was just giving my experience from running with different groups. Everyone has different experiences in the game. Yes you devoted time to clear that content because you wanted to. You beat it. That's the reward for your time an effort gettinggear that only people who beat it can wear is your trophy to show of. I could see if the were giving out the exact same gear as savage but they are not. Your gear and my gear will always be different. Everyone will know you beat it and I didn't. Gear is being replaced at lighting speed now. Most people have realized this and that's why they don't raid. Gear last long. If you don't want to be miserable playing this game. Raid for self satisfaction and not gear because you will always be pissed when something better comes along.

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so, dyable alex normal gear is an acceptable reward to you for an alex savage clear? Especially when one of the best colors is the default color to the normal gear?

You're right, the gear is not the same, it can be better than savage gear, which is asinine while alex savage is the current tip of the content mountain.

Don't tell me how to play. This is not a matter of gear eventually becoming obsolete, it's a matter of gear becoming obsolete while alex savage is still the current raid tier.

Do I think gear should be different and look better yes. I think people who clear it should get exclusive mounts and minions for their hard work. I think Daidem should change from being a zergefest. Your mind is closed and you refused to highlight those parts. The gear is not obsolete. You still have it until you get a piece that is better. Unlike you I'm not telling you how to play the game just a different away to look at it. Instead of being mad that other people are getting something better, which will always happen in life you could change your way of thinking. Why not ask SE to put more item in savage or change the gear design or gear upgrades. (P.S. you told me how to play first when you told me I'm doing Diadem wrong because if it's not how you play it's wrong I guess lol)

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

Do I think gear should be different and look better yes. I think people who clear it should get exclusive mounts and minions for their hard work. I think Daidem should change from being a zergefest. Your mind is closed and you refused to highlight those parts. The gear is not obsolete. You still have it until youget a piece that is better. Unlike you I'm not telling you how to play the game just a different away to look at it. Instead of being mad that other people are getting something better, which will always happen in life you could change your way of thinking. Why not ask SE to put more item in savage or change the gear design or gear upgrades. (P.S. you told me how to play first when you told me I'm doing Diadem wrong because if it's not how you play it's wrong I guess lol)

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Did I tell you to play diadem differently? No, I did not. I merely informed you that if you're getting so few chest that you are doing it wrong. You can continue to play how ever you like.

and I have tried more than most people on the OF to be reasonable in this dialogue. I wanted to have a discussion to bridge the gap between casual and hardcore. I wanted to find a middle ground.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...misconceptions

Look at how much though and consideration I gave that thread. Look at how non-threatening I tried to be. Very few people were interested back then and now the raiding community has fallen apart.

I am done being nice. People here treat raiders horribly without provocation. I have no qualms now about returning the favor.

"People here treat raiders horribly without provocation. I have no qualms now about returning the favor."

Yeah, I'm done being nice to raiders too. Maybe we treat some raiders like this because they made the game what it is today: a boring game that has no elements of past FF games outside of name mentions and items with a horrid vertical progression, disposable content, bloated skillset and iLevel, not to mention the waste of investment just to redesign encounters for a minimal percentage of the community while crafting and gathering suffer from a lot of problems that will remain unsolved for at least one more patch. Maybe because they're most WoW leftovers, bringing their WoW-expectations to FFXIV, maybe because most of them are so toxic in DF and leave after someone say that they're new. Yeah, maybe.

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Originally Posted by Entilper

"People here treat raiders horribly without provocation. I have no qualms now about returning the favor."Yeah, I'm done being nice to raiders too. Maybe we treat some raiders like this because they made the game what it is today: a boring game that has no elements of past FF games outside of name mentions and items with a horrid vertical progression, disposable content, bloated skillset and iLevel, not to mention the waste of investment just to redesign encounters for a minimal percentage of the community while crafting and gathering suffer from a lot of problems that will remain unsolved for at least one more patch. Maybe because they're most WoW leftovers, bringing their WoW-expectations to FFXIV, maybe because most of them are so toxic in DF and leave after someone say that they're new. Yeah, maybe.

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http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

Yeah, what was I thinking? I will just shoot Yoshi-P an email about how I want the game changed. Better yet, I will just skype with the dev team later on about what I want changed in the game. Are you for real? If you have issues with this game and how it fits into the FF franchise, maybe you should look at the dev team and less at the people playing the game.

Raiders are the minority, and we have changed very little in this game. What you hate about this game was already in place even before the second coil of bahamut was released. I have been playing this game since 1.0 and your attitude is by far one of the worst I have encountered in my long long history with square's MMOs from ff11 to ff14.

- Law bonus
- Raider "I'm not carrying anyone" and leave
- I have the worst attitude you have seen, then you should look again or try to not go in everything with your pre-made party from FC or your static so you know how rude people are.

You're right, it was already in place when it started, and when the devs try to change it by implementing new forms of acquiring the highest level gear, on a first step towards horizontal progression, the raid community come here using "WoW gear tiers" arguments (like the one you used on the other thread about rewarding), whining and complaining because they don't have the best gear anymore, even though this is a catch up patch.

You haven't made a point yet outside of "raiders need better gear than others that don't raid", something that is bs on a game like this, especially with the new way the game is following, as Yoshida said in his interviews. While they continue to listen to this type of sefish claims about rewards and gear, this game will never provide anything to it's full potential, because everytime they try anything, the "raiding community" feels offended because they're rewarding other player types too.

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Originally Posted by Entilper

- Law bonus
- Raider "I'm not carrying anyone" and leave
- I have the worst attitude you have seen, then you should look again or try to not go in everything with your pre-made party from FC or your static so you know how rude people are.

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yup, that's 100% of all raiders. I certainly did not link a thread where I tried to extend the olive branch two months ago. Your gross generalization only further my point. Also, no, I don't want to play with people that don't care for my plight at all. You can have fun with your 45 min dungeons runs, I like my 15 min runs just fine tyvm. You guys treat good players like the plague so we will just play with like minded people and you have have the feast of famine that represents the average skill level of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Entilper

You're right, it was already in place when it started, and when the devs try to change it by implementing new forms of acquiring the highest level gear, on a first step towards horizontal progression, the raid community come here using "WoW gear tiers" arguments (like the one you used on the other thread about rewarding), whining and complaining because they don't have the best gear anymore, even though this is a catch up patch.

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So, diadem is the first step towards horizontal progression? Diadem? The content that single handedly killed interest in both savage alex and void ark? Yeah, try again buckaroo. Diadem is the antithesis of horizontal progression since it's the only source of BiS gear right now.

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You haven't made a point yet outside of "raiders need better gear than others that don't raid", something that is bs on a game like this, especially with the new way the game is following, as Yoshida said in his interviews. While they continue to listen to this type of sefish claims about rewards and gear, this game will never provide anything to it's full potential, because every time they try anything, the "raiding community" feels offended because they're rewarding other player types too.

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and you haven't made a point other than "waaah raiders suck and I want to have my freebies! Waaah raiders ruined mah ff14! Waaaaah wow players are the worst people!"

Yeah, I am the one being selfish because I climbed to the mountain top with alex savage and I am upset that people like you want an elevator put into the mountain. Get over your sense of self righteous entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Anecdotal cases of people who have great fortune, don't alter the facts about rarity of gear, that is the nature of outcomes based on RNG. For every person who has acquired some good pieces, there are hundreds with none.

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And those people claiming not to have won anything are also purely anecdotal. People like to complain more than they like to show off their gear. For those hundreds with none, there are hundreds with a lot. You can't play off one side of an argument with another to try and enforce your argument when they're both based on anecdotes.

I'm a raider And I don't care that people get bis from Diadem.
Savage isn't that great and I don't see why some raider want to be over the top for so long.
Diadem/thordan will help a lot of people stuck on a3s. I'm ok with it.

I only did savage cause I wanted to play with a team and beat some hard content. I really don't care about bis. I want some funny, hard and interesting fights.
At least, Diadem consume a lot of my free time and If it could get me some bis, I'm happy. And Diadem is great to help my secondary job.

Void ark is ok, It helps ppl that don't want to do Diadem. I understand them, it's really boring and the rng can make us crazy. And Diadem ez/normal is a waste of time.

Came in expecting a thread about Hildy. I am disappoint. :(

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

Came in expecting a thread about Hildy. I am disappoint. :(

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We need more Hildebrand quests, but I'm sure people will complain about it being non-content again.

/eyeroll

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

Came in expecting a thread about Hildy. I am disappoint. :(

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I would have titled it Hildilarity then :P

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Originally Posted by zosia

(..) If Diadem gear HAS to be the best gear in the game then you should only get one piece per week. (..)

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How many items you can equip and how often that superior gear does appear?
Even after 2 years nonstop farming you will most likely NEVER be equipped BiS with Diadem, players are hunting in there because other reasons, gear is secundary (lets call it BONUS)!

I dont think SE did the change because of the feedback, why whould they A5-A8 NM probaly gonna have much stronger stuff then Diadem can give or the new crafted pieces.
Its more for People getting better gear to beat the content they still need to beat, having something to do just for fun or save tokens for materia.
And tokens less items less token less materia later on.
Maybe this was one reason they change something, its easier to farm gear with more then one grp beating the shit out of every mob.
Lets them have better gear then Savage and upgraded Eso who cares with 3.2 its useless you dont need this gear to beat the new NM.
Let the change and increase the change for better stats on the 210 drops. :cool:

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

Is there a constructive point to this thread?

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Is there anything constructive about anything in the many pages of the General Discussion thread?