Astro needs a Nerf in PVP

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

Does nobody remember in slaughter/secure when scholars were practically unkillable? It was the same situation, and you just dealt with it as best you could. When I play AST, you can tell who's team is coordinated or not. They either let me run around like an idiot and heal spam or I get stunned and slammed by everyone's burst at once and die before I have a chance to do anything. It's always taken a few people to kill a prepared healer without Raw Destruction, Ast is no more powerful now than Sch was before, the tables have just been turned for them compared to the new class.

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This.

You can keep your whining about AST, because half of the "complaints" and "problems" listed by people in this thread are easily applied to the other two healers as well.

The ONLY thing that I can see people arguing against is Aspected Benefic being instant cast, but that's it. And if you take that away, Scholars need a nerf as well, because having your fairy still being able to heal you while you're being slept/stunned/whatever is just as unfair as AST being able to spam Aspected Benefic.

I cannot believe that Scholars went on for YEARS with being ridiculously OP in PvP and nobody bats an eye, and the second that spot gets usurped everyone starts pouting and stomping their feet.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

SNIP.

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Uhh, no. That's not the same thing at all. Why you even tried to draw that parallel is beyond me. Why? Because Selene/Eos can be slept/killed. Their casts are not instant. And it's only just that anyway, a cure. Aspected Benefic is a instant HEAL AND SHIELD(if in Noc Stance...which all AST are).

I don't know about you, but I never saw SCH as the same power levels as AST when it comes to Shield/Healing unless that magical crit happens. But even, dem cast times! They gonna get ya!

Lol at the notion that scholar possessing 6 insta cast lustrates equates in any way to unlimited insta cast noct cures (even ignoring the fact that you can wipe away aetherflow stacks its still no comparison). Scholars were never said to have been unkillable back in the secure days idk where you are getting that from. Unless you are mistaking the people who used to whine that they couldn't solo schs as dps as it meaning that scholar is unkillable which is just ridiculous.

Astro do not really have anything special outside Aspected Benefic in pvp. Whm can spam regens and keep most of time everybody up if there is not high pressure on one player and have insanely good cc with repose, fluid aura, stone, swiftcast holy etc. SCH heal more burst healing with 9x lustrate and pet is immune for cc with rouse and you can always summon new one. Aspected Benefic is superior for astro because they lack other things and cards are not really that special for pvp as it is for pve.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

I don't know about you, but I never saw SCH as the same power levels as AST when it comes to Shield/Healing unless that magical crit happens. But even, dem cast times! They gonna get ya!

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You're making very large logical assumptions, and again you talk about CC, in the sense that everything is fixed with a sleep/kill (which Scholars are more likely to kill first for an extra 3 lustrates and a 20% healing increase because lolscrewyou), when the same thing can just as easily be applied to Astro, and as previously stated, Rouse fixes your "stun problem."

Maybe I'm just used to downing Astro's more effectively, but everyone who consistently bitches about them being OP seriously just doesn't know how to co-ordinate with other people, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Lol at the notion that scholar possessing 6 insta cast lustrates equates in any way to unlimited insta cast noct cures (even ignoring the fact that you can wipe away aetherflow stacks its still no comparison). Scholars were never said to have been unkillable back in the secure days idk where you are getting that from. Unless you are mistaking the people who used to whine that they couldn't solo schs as dps as it meaning that scholar is unkillable which is just ridiculous.

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Nobody said they were unkillable, so I don't know why you're putting words into my mouth instead of reading what I'm saying, but they were OP and far superior and harder to kill than White Mages, and if you're going to contest that, it's painfully obvious you didn't WD/Secure much.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

Does nobody remember in slaughter/secure when scholars were practically unkillable? It was the same situation, and you just dealt with it as best you could. When I play AST, you can tell who's team is coordinated or not. They either let me run around like an idiot and heal spam or I get stunned and slammed by everyone's burst at once and die before I have a chance to do anything. It's always taken a few people to kill a prepared healer without Raw Destruction, Ast is no more powerful now than Sch was before, the tables have just been turned for them compared to the new class.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

This.

You can keep your whining about AST, because half of the "complaints" and "problems" listed by people in this thread are easily applied to the other two healers as well.

The ONLY thing that I can see people arguing against is Aspected Benefic being instant cast, but that's it. And if you take that away, Scholars need a nerf as well, because having your fairy still being able to heal you while you're being slept/stunned/whatever is just as unfair as AST being able to spam Aspected Benefic.

I cannot believe that Scholars went on for YEARS with being ridiculously OP in PvP and nobody bats an eye, and the second that spot gets usurped everyone starts pouting and stomping their feet.

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Nah you should probably just read what you are quoting first before blindly agreeing with it. You are grasping at straws pretty hard with your SCH/AST comparison as well.

The difference between CC SCH and CC AST are vastly different. I only say sleep/kill because I don't feel like listing the entire toolset. Stun/Sleep/Silence/Kill. The third is more likely do the most effect to ANY Healer versus the first two. The SCH will -eventually- run out of stacks if their Fairy is out of play. AST has the instant cures and shield to cover them over as long as needed(because you know..700 MP a cast for a 2-3k Heal/Shield). AST has far more endurance than the other two combined at the cost of 707 MP. SCH is more than likely going to blow all their lustrates to keep themselves alive, but that's it after that(or if someone just removes them. RIP)

This is the same concept of SMN, but with a different situation. Can they be killed? Yes. Are their single abilitiy unparalleled for low cost? Definitely. That's what people call out on OP. Not the job itself, but simply Noc Aspected Benefic.

ive been killed quite easily in PVP as an ast. Mainly due to being stun locked lol

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Lol at the notion that scholar possessing 6 insta cast lustrates equates in any way to unlimited insta cast noct cures

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Back when 50 was the cap? Yeah, it was pretty much the same thing. You had to go through the exact same process to kill them then as you do AST now. The point is, the healers have never been evenly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Nah you should probably just read what you are quoting first before blindly agreeing with it. You are grasping at straws pretty hard with your SCH/AST comparison as well.

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I think you need to look up what the word "practically" means and re-read my argument because it's very clear you don't have a single clue as to what either means.

You also completely ignored the second half of my post, so get back to me on that when you read it.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

I think you need to look up what the word "practically" means and re-read my argument because it's very clear you don't have a single clue as to what either means.

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You can fall back on semantics if you want I guess since its your only option left at this point seeing as the rest of your argument has already been picked apart by other people. You are probably the only person in this forum that took me saying "unkillable" as literally meaning a job that cannot be damaged or have their hp brought down to zero (as if such a thing existed).

Edit: And no the second half of your post was already addressed by Lorielle so why should I regurgitate points that were already made on the very same page?

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

You can fall back on semantics if you want I guess since its your only option left at this point seeing as the rest of your argument has already been picked apart by other people. You are probably the only person in this forum that took me saying "unkillable" as literally meaning a job that cannot be damaged or have their hp brought down to zero (as if such a thing existed).

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"B-but muh semantics"

http://s7.postimg.org/8hjfenzjf/DE_Approved_Graph.jpg

If you aren't going to bother with a reply with one containing substance rather than just trying to use "semantics" as means of trying to justify your argument, I think we're done here.

Good job on that argument dodge though, A+.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

If you aren't going to bother with a reply with one containing substance rather than just trying to use "semantics" as means of trying to justify your argument, I think we're done here.

Good job on that argument dodge though, A+.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

Uhh, no. That's not the same thing at all. Why you even tried to draw that parallel is beyond me. Why? Because Selene/Eos can be slept/killed. Their casts are not instant. And it's only just that anyway, a cure. Aspected Benefic is a instant HEAL AND SHIELD(if in Noc Stance...which all AST are).

I don't know about you, but I never saw SCH as the same power levels as AST when it comes to Shield/Healing unless that magical crit happens. But even, dem cast times! They gonna get ya!

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This post is literally 4 posts above mine. Why do you feel the need to have me repeat it again when Lorielle had already beaten me to it? Your argument is just flawed stop trying to justify it you cant. You are the only person here still trying to save face. Its getting sad now.

I have fought AST in Seal Rocks and they so do need a bloody nerf... I hate hitting with "0" damage on them when they have that shield up. And some videos to show how "awesome" they are at surviving, tanking, distraction, and using the terrain to their advantage to make them nearly unbeatable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdgdMFw6Hpk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SQKyksNipk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uagwim949jA

Ignoring the first video's... choice of music... you see so many guys targeting a single AST and they do not go down. True the AST did go down in the end, but a single AST can seriously screw up other teams if they use their healing abilities and terrain to their advantage, no other class can do this.

Tell me how this is not broken or overpowered in the slightest? Should a single class REALLY be able to tank some many attacks like that? Though this player did have very good teamwork and communication skills here, but damn.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

This post is literally 4 posts above mine. Why do you feel the need to have me repeat it again when Lorielle had already beaten me to it? Your argument is just flawed stop trying to justify it you cant. You are the only person here still trying to save face. Its getting sad now.

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Funny how you mention "saving face," yet you desperately reply to each of my comments by using another argument rather than your own because it seems you're incapable of creating one with substance.

"Y-you can't."

Oh, but I did, and your attempts at coat-tailing off of another aren't going to save your case. Rather than attacking the tone of my argument, try again and provide me with one of substance. Until then,

http://manrepeller.wpengine.netdna-c...ye-felicia.gif

Aspected is our one go-to PvP advantage. Take that away from us and well. We have nothing. AoE stun maybe a couple times a match. Oh boy.

Our DPS is downright terrible compared to WHM/SCH, especially SCH. So we can't make it up there. We simply have the worst DPS in the entire game, be it PvP or not. Our strength is our faster and spur of the moment heals. That's our ENTIRE IDENTITY. We're essentially what happens when a Time Mage really loves stars and a game of poker.

Our cards could be our identity in PvP, sure, except they aren't reliable at all. The amount of times enough people are grouped up to make AoE cards worth it is nigh on never. That and we still draw the same card when shuffling so much it could be a drinking game.

And to put on the record, I've had plenty of groups kill me before. If you can't kill an AST, I'm sorry but to put it bluntly you need to learn to PvP rotation, not PvE rotation. That and work together.

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Originally Posted by VirusChris

Comedy

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The players in those videos almost had me on the floor laughing.

What does Warrior do soon as he comes in contact with AST? Brutal Swing (Stun) GG.
Oh AST is sleep, DRG has time to catch up to AST! Nah, he is going to break the sleep with Piercing Talon GG.
AST is running (no sprint), multiple weapon throws (now resist heavy). Then the AST sprints and proceeds to kite GG.
Many players chasing the AST. WHM hero comes to save the day with bind resisted knock back GG.
That Fester with just Bio on the AST was pretty funny aswell.

Those are only some of the hilarious actions of players in those videos of yours, not to mention in some instances there was a WHM healing the AST aswell. Also, the footage cuts out a lot, it seems to only do it when its obvious he is going to die...

AST is strong, but please pin them against actual skilled players, and if its the same result then scream heavy nerfs!

I have no problem taking out a AST,especially if they're distracted.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

Rather than attacking the tone of my argument, try again and provide me with one of substance.

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...bum_cover).jpg

Couldn't help myself xD

ASTs are far from unkillable, I watch them die just as frequently in 24-man as they do in 72-man. Maybe y'all need to recheck your burst rotations.

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Originally Posted by Selli

ASTs are far from unkillable, I watch them die just as frequently in 24-man as they do in 72-man. Maybe y'all need to recheck your burst rotations.

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Exactly, just like I said on page 1, I've personally burst a Ast down solo on my MCH by timing my stun, knockback, and Silence shots properly in my rotation(they're all OGCD). People just need better strats then "Enemy Sighted! I'll Spam my range attack till I close in and use my PvE opener to take them out!" smh

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

Exactly, just like I said on page 1, I've personally burst a Ast down solo on my MCH by timing my stun, knockback, and Silence shots properly in my rotation(they're all OGCD). People just need better strats then "Enemy Sighted! I'll Spam my range attack till I close in and use my PvE opener to take them out!" smh

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Yay for ranged characters then. Any tips for melees besides busting out an LB? Cause the more I play in PvP the more I feel gimmped for picking melee DPS, but that's a whole other topic.

And maybe give someone a MIND debuff like we have some INT ones.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Yay for ranged characters then. Any tips for melees besides busting out an LB? Cause the more I play in PvP the more I feel gimmped for picking melee DPS, but that's a whole other topic.

And maybe give someone a MIND debuff like we have some INT ones.

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If you've 1v1ing AST randomly outside of heated battles, you'll have no chance (unless you're WAR and you get really lucky with a crit Fell Cleaved beserk with Full Swing up) so don't even bother wasting your cooldowns but when both alliances are fighting, it's very easy for an AST to let their guard down, maybe it's them looking at their party list because someone is dying or they gave an instant heal to another team member. Use marks accordingly, I hardly see anyone use marks to focus down targets but once you mark someone, more likely than not, people will focus and that person will be killed.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

If you've 1v1ing AST randomly outside of heated battles, you'll have no chance (unless you're WAR and you get really lucky with a crit Fell Cleaved beserk with Full Swing up) so don't even bother wasting your cooldowns but when both alliances are fighting, it's very easy for an AST to let their guard down, maybe it's them looking at their party list because someone is dying or they gave an instant heal to another team member. Use marks accordingly, I hardly see anyone use marks to focus down targets but once you mark someone, more likely than not, people will focus and that person will be killed.

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This^^ from my experience, the only time 1vs1 is really optimal is dps vs dps, especially a melee on a caster, or a caster with some range on a melee, this is a party based mode and you should be working with your team. Outside of this, learn your "Burst" rotation, the time it takes to complete, and how long before all your CDs are up again so you know off hand how often you have the opportunity and when to use it( Dummy's come in handy here to help you do it instinctively instead of reactively) learn what your CC abilities can affect and their icons, and have an understanding of what other classes CC icons look like( so youre not building resists/ wasting CDs on nothing) practice makes perfect; if you only pvp on one class by the time you hit rank 25-30 you should have a good grasp as to what youre capable of.

Zeonx you need a Warrior! in your team i kill strologians solo, but you must to be fast, with double fell clave with berseker and inner beast, jeweling as give det +critical hit rate and use stune and some pvp skills (damage over time, etc) and in less of a second you given 10/15k even 20 like me one time, when you can hit 7k or 8k of one hit and doing a double hit with it, and take care to hit exactly when astro don't expected (like followin a dps with low life and surpriseeeeee turn to him and kill!) no one of them can resist the instantly enormous quantity of damage deal (greater than melee lb)

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

This^^ from my experience, the only time 1vs1 is really optimal is dps vs dps, especially a melee on a caster, or a caster with some range on a melee, this is a party based mode and you should be working with your team. Outside of this, learn your "Burst" rotation, the time it takes to complete, and how long before all your CDs are up again so you know off hand how often you have the opportunity and when to use it( Dummy's come in handy here to help you do it instinctively instead of reactively) learn what your CC abilities can affect and their icons, and have an understanding of what other classes CC icons look like( so youre not building resists/ wasting CDs on nothing) practice makes perfect; if you only pvp on one class by the time you hit rank 25-30 you should have a good grasp as to what youre capable of.

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Or just pick Astro yourself and laugh.

It's hard as heck to LEARN pvp because of how fast it is and how small you are. Unless you're playing a class that CAN visibly cause an effect/result(Warrior, Summoner, Astro, Black Mage, hell Dragoon with spine shatter LB). Maybe back when it was smaller and more....personal I guess but now it's get in, zerg when possible, win/lose, repeat.

But this is more complaints about PVP in general than just Astro.

I dunno, I find I live far more as a sch, than when I play ast in pvp. Them lustrates. (But maybe that's because I have more experience as sch).
I have found that an astro and a sch healer healing together is pretty OP though. :D The astro has the fast single target shields, and the sch has the fast aoe shields. (Honestly, the astro aoe shield is so slooooooow, unless you use the speed buff ability, but when that's on CD, you are pretty much screwed)
I also tend to do more overall healing than the astros too. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Stuff

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The difference between SCH and AST is that SCH is limited by their Lustrates. You'll die eventually because you blow through all 9 Lustrates and then have nothing to burn. AST(btw Lightspeed does nothing for Aspected Benefic), has their Instant Shields which can be applied instantly and a crit shield does wonders in PVP. If they get low? ED. Still being tailed? Celestial Opposition. They have more tools to work with than SCH and WHM for -KITING- purposes. As a healer, they're kinda meh in PVP.

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btw Lightspeed does nothing for Aspected Benefic

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reduced mana cost :P

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

(btw Lightspeed does nothing for Aspected Benefic)

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It does something for aspected helios though. The aoe heal.

All I want is for them to nerf Astros for Wolves Den before ranked wolves den. :<
SE pls.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

It does something for aspected helios though. The aoe heal.

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That's fine and dandy which is true, but for PVP purposes, AST isn't typically going to spamming Aspected Helios(mostly due to party being spread anyway). I'd see Lightspeed more for Benefic II spam.

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

Sorry but this is the truth, a full team couldn't kill 2 astro's while they held a node and curing themselves the whole time......

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I can see many great ppl will say they can kill any AST, and ofcoz, when they are AST, they will say no will can kill them ^^;

Before the astro buff I was totally fine with it, now honestly I think they are a little "too strong" compared to the other healers, probably I'm thinking about Seal rock, where usually a little (let's be positive xD) chaos is involved, so not all the players are super pvp focused and so Astro seems very powerful because with just 1 insta-skill he easily stay alive (and please take in consideration that astro has even synastry, lightspeed and essential dignity + AoE stun).

Even if they will rebalance it I hope they won't put something like a cast time to it, in my opinion they should force astro to use all their skills, maybe giving to Aspect Benefic a double MP cost if your previous skill was another aspect Benefic (actually u can do about 20 Aspect benefic without MP regeneratio skills)

Anyway I still think that if there is just an astro in a party, sleep him or just one player has to chase him while u are totally free to kill the rest of them, they have the best survivability but the worst paty-healing in my opinion, my fear are mostly connected to Wolves Den and the Fest.

Just focus them down: put a nin on them with their 2 stuns and silence. That should be 6 to 8 seconds of no healing

Yes, nerf a class cause they outshine in one aspect of the game, Genius.

L2P And stop 1v1 a healer, Dive on him with your party, Get some hits in, stun &LB. Done

^ Wish I could like your post more than once. Focus them down, even if they pop attunement, there is a delay before the healing on essential dignity and asp bene which you can kill them before.

@Pom,

Exactly, sometimes i wonder, Should we just re-do pvp. Give everyone the same HP/MP/ATK/DEF/ATTRI/ Etc etc. And just fist brawl it out.
Ofcourse some classes are gonna outshine in certain aspects, Whats the point if every class did the exact same thing.

Ast is okay in seal rock but in wolves den really op so yes they need a nerf even if its only for wd

I would sooner like to see Cure, Physick, and Benefic becoming insta-cast in PvP areas before they wreck A.Benefic.