PLD Raise while in combat please!

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Originally Posted by Zumi

As someone who plays pld main, raise would offer nothing to the current end game scene. If you have to cast a long spell to rasie someone in savage you already lost the fight more or less.

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...sigh...










when


will


people



...think outside the raid/end-game scene....

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Not in the UK....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkers_%28horse_tack%29
Not a great start to your post, but hey, we all make mistakes.

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Well, I'm in the US and not the UK, and here we call them blinders, but that is semantical difference and completely beside the point.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

To answer your second 'point', I've been in many situations in light party where I ould have usefully raised a healer, but obviously could not because of the restriction. I'm not sure how you come up with it being worse since 4-man content is somewhat more forgiving in any case. Either way, I disagree with your analysis and believe that you need to remove your end-game oriented *blinkers*.

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In my experience as a tank in all my time playing, the number of times that this would have been useful like this has been so small that the issue of effectively being able to use it makes it a pointless skill to have. Also, I don't have those 'blinkers/blinders/things that cover a horse's eyes' for end game raiding since I don't end game raid. I haven't even set a foot into Alex Savage yet and I'm not really planning on it in the near future, so you're wrong I that assumption there. But hey, we all make mistakes...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

...sigh...










when


will


people



...think outside the raid/end-game scene....

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about job balance? When it's not the most relevant scene for job balance, probably.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

In my experience as a tank in all my time playing, the number of times that this would have been useful like this has been so small that the issue of effectively being able to use it makes it a pointless skill to have. Also, I don't have those 'blinkers/blinders/things that cover a horse's eyes' for end game raiding since I don't end game raid. I haven't even set a foot into Alex Savage yet and I'm not really planning on it in the near future, so you're wrong I that assumption there.

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Well, then I am sorry, when you wrote

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If I'm in a fight where I only need to OT, it'd be somewhat alright provided I didn't have to worry about the MT dying when both healers go down.

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in a response earlier is surely seemed like you were referring to end-game/raid content which is typically 8-man content with 2 tanks and 2 healers. But, if not, then I apologize. I still think you are wrong. But then I am sure you still think I am wrong, so it's all good.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

about job balance? When it's not the most relevant scene for job balance, probably.

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Yeah, I understand that, however a PLD being able to use a cross class skill that they already have is hardly unbalancing the game, since it is not a tool any PLD would use lightly thanks to the rather length casting time.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

...sigh...










when


will


people



...think outside the raid/end-game scene....

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Never. You and I are in the same boat, but this game is never gonna be what we would want. Too much WoW influx of players, too much work to please that player influx, too much development towards content that gives trouble to world's first FCs and too much focus on gearing. Unless they start from scratch, this game is probably doomed to be the same until it closes.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Never. You and I are in the same boat, but this game is never gonna be what we would want. Too much WoW influx of players, too much work to please that player influx, too much development towards content that gives trouble to world's first FCs and too much focus on gearing. Unless they start from scratch, this game is probably doomed to be the same until it closes.

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Indeed.

However, try taking a look at the game from the perspective of a new player. Unless you become very focused and blow through everything to 60, there is a crap ton of stuff to do, and plenty of gearing options. It's a lot more game like and fun if you're not chasing the end-game - IMHO at least.

I do agree with you though. There is too much focus on end-game and raiding with the balance of jobs and skills being solely based on end-game and raiding, along with the gearing being almost exclusively focused on that too. It's kind of interesting if you step off the gear treadmill and watch from the side lines.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Never. You and I are in the same boat, but this game is never gonna be what we would want. Too much WoW influx of players, too much work to please that player influx, too much development towards content that gives trouble to world's first FCs and too much focus on gearing. Unless they start from scratch, this game is probably doomed to be the same until it closes.

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The same until it closes? Heavensward already went a long way towards homogenizing the classes to be much more alike than they were at 2.0 launch. PLD even got Clemency as a healing skill to replace its defunct Cure cross-class, and that has been pushed to the side as well because there's very very few good times to use it. Personally, I came from LotRO and one of the best parts of the system were how distinct the classes were. By making all the classes do all the things you make no class unique and all of them become uninteresting.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

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How is making a Paladin what they have been trough all the franchise "homogenizing" it? It would be homogenizing if they could heal on par or better than a WHM. Other than that, Paladins/Knights have always been a sword and shield fighter with White Magic skills and this game being the (sad) exception to it.

Pushing a DPS meta down our throats is much more dangerous to homogenize the jobs than giving healing utilities to PLD.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

How is making a Paladin what they have been trough all the franchise "homogenizing" it? It would be homogenizing if they could heal on par or better than a WHM. Other than that, Paladins/Knights have always been a sword and shield fighter with White Magic skills and this game being the (sad) exception to it.

Pushing a DPS meta down our throats is much more dangerous to homogenize the jobs than giving healing utilities to PLD.

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Homogenized in the fact that PLDs now have healing tools and DPS tools that they didn't have before. Tools that, while they may not be 'on par' with WHM, were meant to pull some (not all) of the healing burden off of healers. A PLD should never be a replacement for a WHM or SCH. They are tanks, WAR are tanks... Even if they seem more like DPS at the moment. Pushing too much of another class/role's ability onto another class muddles that role, it doesn't give it a clear, distinct purpose so you know what to expect and what is expected of you in a fight, and honestly that makes it -harder- on a new player, especially when you go from 2.x content to 3.x content and you're suddenly expected to do things outside of your already selected role. Do I believe in making players stretch out of their comfort zone? Yes, as a teacher I encourage people to do it all the time. But I don't sit someone down in a Math class and start expecting them to quote Macbeth to me.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

That's EXACTLY what we don't want. Paladin always had acess to useful WHM spells in FF games, this one being the exception. I don't see how it would make it "the same as other classes". Alas, PLD is already a freaking generic tank prototype as is.

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You sound mad. Stop being mad. While my statement was over the top, I do agree that adding Holy to PLD would make sense, I would disagree that adding battle raise to a PLD makes sense. As far as I can find, but I haven't looked everywhere, the only FF game that gives PLD raise is FFXI. Cecil doesn't have it. None of the tactics games have it. While having a light healing ability and holy make sense, raise still does not.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

That wouldn't balance out jack. All it would do give PLD a little more raid utility that's niche at best and borderline useless at worst. With no Swiftcast available, you have to animation lock yourself for over 8 seconds to cast Raise. If both healers are down, 8 seconds is a freakin eternity for the boss to chew up the MT, spit him out, and start hunting for DPS.

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Since I pretty much always MT, I was looking from this point of view, to be used under scarce circumstances, like popping the Hallowed Ground Skill, then no matter how long your raise, you wouldn't be chewed up.. and I can see myself raising an Healer, and him to use the LB3 to save the long fight..

^ an example only ^o^

If they can give us Swiftcast then by all means! hehehe ;)

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

You sound mad. Stop being mad. While my statement was over the top, I do agree that adding Holy to PLD would make sense, I would disagree that adding battle raise to a PLD makes sense. As far as I can find, but I haven't looked everywhere, the only FF game that gives PLD raise is FFXI. Cecil doesn't have it. None of the tactics games have it. While having a light healing ability and holy make sense, raise still does not.

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I'm not mad, just displeased with the way FFXIV is turning to be. Holy is an ability exclusive to WHMs, there's no sense in adding it to Paladin. Given that FFIV had Raise for Cecil on later editions, yes, it would make sense. Paladins/Knights were able to even AoE heal with Heal/Cura in most games, so even Medica would make sense. What doesn't make sense is adding more combos and dots just like every other DPS character, and that's what we have today, outside of Clemency and Divine Veil.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

PLD being able to Raise in combat would be of niche use at the very best. More half-assed raid utility isn't balance.

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Well, since it won't balance it out, SE can surely give it to us!

RPers and those niche occasion would be nice to see ^^

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You already have Raise cross classed from CNJ, you may or may not have included it in the skills you could put in available slots. However, at the moment there is no point because we can't use it in battle, even though it's a cross class skill. In fact there really isn't any point to cross classing the skill without being able to use it in battle <- That is the point of my thread, sigh. And check me on Lodestone, I've got all my Cross-Class Skills, so I know them ;) since it takes almost as much time to switch the skill into your hotbar and wait for the cooldown before using it as it does to simply switch to CNJ or WHM and do it that way. <- err what? That has nothing to do with my suggestion.

There's discussion of this on the Tank forum. (at least someone who has taste! ^^)

I understand the points about end-game/raid content. But in general run of the mill stuff and in terms of QoL, it matters because we have been given it as a cross class skill, but it's quite literally unusable in any meaningful way because it can't be used in battle. <- EXACTLY. I mean, if you're going to give Raise as a cross class, why not make it battle usable? Summoners have the skill from Arcanist that allows them to raise in battle. <- YUP.

Actually if CNJ didn't need a trait to allow raising in battle, there would be no issue. I've no idea why CNJ needs to have that trait in the first place, it seems a needless restriction at the best.

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Well, yeah, seems they are looking to revamp this skill system, we might be in for a shock! Get ready for 4.0, the reborn of a reborn game!

*actually I wouldn't mind testing a different skill systems, as long as they keep up with this nice game ^^

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

The difference between Paladin having a raise in battle and a summoner having raise is that a Paladin can get hit by a truck and live; a summoner cannot (No defensive CDs even). Most classes share a bum skill. (RUIN) White mages get 3 good cross class and share very good cross class. Stoneskin (maybe protect over mercy sometimes) + MRD cross is all PLD needs. If Paladin does need more utility they shouldn't be looking at cross class to improve themselves.

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Then tell me why we needed CNJ to unlock our job.

We don't use Cure at all (even before Clemency), Stoneskin now seems irrelevant to the point of leaving it to healers. Protect? Same - Healers.

We mostly use all from MRD.

This is an ability we have and can use, but it's useless. So I want to make a use of it.

If you don't want to use it, up to you.

I don't need that to 'perform' the way you are typing.

It's a 'plus' that would be nice to get.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I'm not mad, just displeased with the way FFXIV is turning to be. Holy is an ability exclusive to WHMs, there's no sense in adding it to Paladin. Given that FFIV had Raise for Cecil on later editions, yes, it would make sense. Paladins/Knights were able to even AoE heal with Heal/Cura in most games, so even Medica would make sense. What doesn't make sense is adding more combos and dots just like every other DPS character, and that's what we have today, outside of Clemency and Divine Veil.

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You know that Holy can be learned by PLDs in FFXI, right? PLDs also have no AoE heal in FFXI. Saint Cross from tactics advance also could be considered Holy as it's a light based AOE damage spell. Wish from Holy Knight takes HP from your character to heal other allies, but outside games without aga spells, I don't believe any PLD had a AOE heal.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Think beyond 8-man raids and end-game. In light party content if the healer dies, it's generally gonna be a wipe. If PLD could raise in battle, they more than likely have enough aggro lead on the DPS to raise the healer without losing aggro. It would be very useful there. (AMEN)

One thing I am finding in this discussion in particular is that many players wear blinkers that prevent them seeing anything but end-game scenarios. <- as Fevelle replied, the DEVs as well ^^



That's not really very relevant to the discussion, the Summoner is hardly going to steal hate while raising someone, so short of a random AoE they're gonna be fine, especially is they swiftcast it.

As I said earlier in another post. The raise cross class skill is really unusable in it's current state, it literally detracts from the PLD skills if you put it on your hotbar, becoming an entirely wasted slot. Since PLD is based on the combination of GLD and CNJ, is it really unreasonable to expect we would at least be able to use our CNJ skills? <- now we are talking the same language ^^



Oh good grief I hope not. It's one of the few ways in which we get any ability to shape our character and influence anything about how they play. If you remove cross class skills, you rail everyone into exactly the same skills and abilities, and with the vertical gearing, each player in a job would basically be a clone of every other player in the same job. How boring would that be? On the contrary, expand the cross skills. Try this, take your soul stone off, requip as a Gladiator and look at the selection of juicy skills you have to play with. Rather than removing cross class skills, though ought to expand them to allow us more freedom with our skill build.



No it wouldn't. It's on a long cast time and uses a lot of MP, how would it be more powerful or unbalancing than SMN being able to Resurrect? Not to mention that while the PLD is casting it, they are taking damage and not putting out any DPS, so in an end-game scenario with the dps-checks there, I can't believe any raid leader would ask for a PLD over another tank for their ability to battle raise.

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Nice post in here Kosmos ^^

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

You know that Holy can be learned by PLDs in FFXI, right? PLDs also have no AoE heal in FFXI. Saint Cross from tactics advance also could be considered Holy as it's a light based AOE damage spell. Wish from Holy Knight takes HP from your character to heal other allies, but outside games without aga spells, I don't believe any PLD had a AOE heal.

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Yes, because taking into account an MMORPG and Tactics is really something you should do when looking at the roots of a franchise. If we're going about that, Paladins should have acess to sword skills like Holy Explosion and Judgement Blade from FFT. The "aga" spells by the way, are much more present in the franchise than skills like Holy Cross and Wish (and I find it quite lame that FFXIV spells are not named like that).

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Hallow + Raise + Cover + LB3 Healer.

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What's wrong in that scenario?

I saw exactly that. Or the healer use bene on himself while covered.

yeah the DEVs would have to work harder instead of putting more HP to Bosses, but it would feel more engaging.

The Balance thing, oftentimes they screw for a whole patch, and more (WAR comes to my mind) before they see it as unbalanced.

As I was saying, to give this Skill a real utility, even if not useful everywhere, I'd be happy with that, more than some ugly glamours that they come up with more often than not >.<

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Yup, STRATEGY. This is exactly what this game lacks.

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/NODS

*10 character

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Originally Posted by Zumi

As someone who plays pld main, raise would offer nothing to the current end game scene. If you have to cast a long spell to rasie someone in savage you already lost the fight more or less.

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Everything is not only towards End game for a lot of people.

Check the charts, they were surprised that Alex wasn't clear by most (me included, waiting for girlfriend to get the iLvl ^^)

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Yes, because taking into account an MMORPG and Tactics is really something you should do when looking at the roots of a franchise. If we're going about that, Paladins should have acess to sword skills like Holy Explosion and Judgement Blade from FFT. The "aga" spells by the way, are much more present in the franchise than skills like Holy Cross and Wish (and I find it quite lame that FFXIV spells are not named like that).

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You do that when the game include aga spells it usually means that a PLD will NOT have the ability to cast AOE heals, right? In games without aga, it usually means the game let's you cast magic on a single target or multiple targets without a special skill. Not only that, but if we go to the original root of Paladin, he never learns Raise. The highest skill he learns is basically Cure II.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

Then tell me why we needed CNJ to unlock our job.

We don't use Cure at all (even before Clemency), Stoneskin now seems irrelevant to the point of leaving it to healers. Protect? Same - Healers.

We mostly use all from MRD.

This is an ability we have and can use, but it's useless. So I want to make a use of it.

If you don't want to use it, up to you.

I don't need that to 'perform' the way you are typing.

It's a 'plus' that would be nice to get.

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A good Paladin will proactively use Stoneskin. A generous Paladin will protect when a low mp healer cannot. How surprising that a tank class borrows 3 maybe 4 skills from its tanking counterpart. (War borrows conva, provoke, awareness at the minimum and possibly flash. Not like Paladin is apart of their lore)

I'm in full support of this.


Whether end-game or not I believe adding in-combat Raise to Paladin would be perfectly fine balance-wise. It's time consuming to pull off and can be interrupted. It takes a huge chunk of MP which doesn't recover very fast unless you spam Riot Blade (which is a disasterous DPS loss in Savage) preventing you from spam-raising. Then you have to actually be in a point of the fight where it's even possible for the party to perform a recovery. If your healers are dead, you are actually able to pull it off, AND recover, it would be glorious!


Smn's are able to swiftcast a combat-Raise when both healers are dead and its considered "balanced." I don't see why a Paladin shouldn't be able to combat-Raise, without Swiftcast, while taking a pounding, and receiving no heals. Seems pretty balanced to me.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

A good Paladin will proactively use Stoneskin. A generous Paladin will protect when a low mp healer cannot. How surprising that a tank class borrows 3 maybe 4 skills from its tanking counterpart. (War borrows conva, provoke, awareness at the minimum and possibly flash. Not like Paladin is apart of their lore)

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Also fully agree with this. You can Stoneskin yourself before almost every major Tankbuster in the game without interuption. There are also a lot of lengthy transition phases in Raids / Trials that let's you Stoneskin multiple people with weakness before a big hit. I re-protect static members after Raise as it saves the healers MP. Honestly there's no reason for a Paladin to NOT be doing this. It's practically a part of the job.

paladin raise maybe in ffxi but also in wow too. a paladin in ffxiv are tanks and this isn't ffxi nor is ffxi-2

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

A good Paladin will proactively use Stoneskin. A generous Paladin will protect when a low mp healer cannot. How surprising that a tank class borrows 3 maybe 4 skills from its tanking counterpart. (War borrows conva, provoke, awareness at the minimum and possibly flash. Not like Paladin is apart of their lore)

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Er. Ok, yes a stoneskin in the middle of a fight during a long aoe works. But if it hits EVERYONE a good healer will stoneskin II. If it's a specific area/target, a good tank will gtfo of the aoe. Not put stoneskin on. If it's mid fight, there's the chance you get interrupted too. A generous paladin can reapply protect to a downed dps during a fight. But protect is not top priority. It is a little boost.

As for cross class, second wind and internal release are great for WAR. The cross class is useful. DRK gets both tank crosses. PLD gets redundancies or useless cross from conjurer

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Er. Ok, yes a stoneskin in the middle of a fight during a long aoe works. But if it hits EVERYONE a good healer will stoneskin II. If it's a specific area/target, a good tank will gtfo of the aoe. Not put stoneskin on. If it's mid fight, there's the chance you get interrupted too. A generous paladin can reapply protect to a downed dps during a fight. But protect is not top priority. It is a little boost.

As for cross class, second wind and internal release are great for WAR. The cross class is useful. DRK gets both tank crosses. PLD gets redundancies or useless cross from conjurer

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Stop. Stoneskin II can't be used in battle.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Stop. Stoneskin II can't be used in battle.

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I hate to say it, but I smiled at this in a topic bemoaning the lact of battle use for Raise on PLD. It's amusing, but doesn't alter the issue of course.

I would love this. In 4 man duty finder groups and if a healer goes down early into a boss fight, it doesn't matter how skilled the rest of the party is, you are probably not taking down the boss. With the ability to use raise, I'd be able to save us the trouble of having to reset just because one person messed up. Most people seem to agree that this isn't going to ruin tank balance. If it adds a bit of utility and doesn't really hurt anything, why not?

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Yup, STRATEGY. This is exactly what this game lacks.

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It always kinda weirds me out when I see this kind of sentiment from people that say they don't do endgame. o.O

I mean, if you don't do the hardest content in the game, of course it's going to seem light on strategy.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

We have FOUR of them, all of them from CNJ and all of them to some degree or another useless or unusable. We're the only non caster to cross with CNJ, I already know the arguments about it being a hold over or legacy thing...yada...yada... The point is it's there, it's half of our cross class skills, and they should be useful in some way.

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If you honestly think Stoneskin is useless, you're doing PLD wrong. Oops sorry, there goes my endgame point of view again.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Also fully agree with this. You can Stoneskin yourself before almost every major Tankbuster in the game without interuption. There are also a lot of lengthy transition phases in Raids / Trials that let's you Stoneskin multiple people with weakness before a big hit. I re-protect static members after Raise as it saves the healers MP. Honestly there's no reason for a Paladin to NOT be doing this. It's practically a part of the job.

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I remember spam-casting Stoneskin on Earthshaker targets in T13. Glorious. xD

I also remember how much fun it was once I figured out that if I Stoneskinned myself I could just Leeroy straight into Bahamut for DB.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

Well, since it won't balance it out, SE can surely give it to us!

RPers and those niche occasion would be nice to see ^^

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They can put it in or not put it in and it won't matter to me either way. I don't care so much about that. I was making an argument against someone that was saying it would help balance Paladin with the other two tanks. Frankly, it wouldn't affect a darn thing as far as evening Paladin up in raid effectiveness with Warrior and Dark Knight. It'd be just another niche use skill that you almost never use.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Stop. Stoneskin II can't be used in battle.

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Whoops, you're right there. That was my b. Knee jerk reaction on that one. Healer ain't my cup o tea.

But to Rawr's post that i originally posted. Yes, tanks using other tanks cross class skills ain't the problem. It's that the CNJ cross class doesn't have very good utility. Cure's are crap. Protect is always given prior to fights. Stoneskin is always given prior to fights (but I will admit, stoneskin is a great move, but still not amazing. Especially in 4 man dungeons as the healer will almost always reapply before pulls). Raise is useless. If we don't take protect or stoneskin with us, VERY seldom will anyone even care, let alone notice. Because it's not that useful to us or others.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

You sound mad. Stop being mad. While my statement was over the top, I do agree that adding Holy to PLD would make sense, I would disagree that adding battle raise to a PLD makes sense. As far as I can find, but I haven't looked everywhere, the only FF game that gives PLD raise is FFXI. Cecil doesn't have it. None of the tactics games have it. While having a light healing ability and holy make sense, raise still does not.

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I saw your other posts concerning PLD and your sense of justice and so..

For me, a PLD in other games or other lore, not just FF, since SE even takes stuff from other games like GW2 and insert it into their own games.

so like a Crusader, who uphold the highest virtue a man can achieve, with justice in his right hand (sword), and to protect the people with his left hand (shield), he prays for God to bless him to live for another day so he can pursue his vows and then if so, even raising comes to mind. (so close to GOD they can bring miracles, like CNJ!)

In less RP terms, don't give crap cross-class skills if you don't intent to give the players a full usage of it; not halfway with a skill, it's useless. (and lots of other cross-class skills for other jobs, what were they smoking?)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

A good Paladin will proactively use Stoneskin. A generous Paladin will protect when a low mp healer cannot. How surprising that a tank class borrows 3 maybe 4 skills from its tanking counterpart. (War borrows conva, provoke, awareness at the minimum and possibly flash. Not like Paladin is apart of their lore)

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Not sure if I'm playing the same game than you, but I was used to Stoneskin myself to help Healer's MP, once we cleared trash until the next pull, until some told me it's useless and a waste of time, not moving forward fast enough to pull..

so my GF use Swift+Stoneskin 2 in between.. >.<

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

If you honestly think Stoneskin is useless, you're doing PLD wrong. Oops sorry, there goes my endgame point of view again.

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Actually I use it regularly, I don't consider it to be completely useless, however if you've spent any time on the tank forum (which I am sure you have) then you will have seen many posters declaring it a waste of time and MP to cast StoneSkin. I do cast StoneSkin, on myself and on others while tanking. I should probably go back and change my comment to say thee, not four, along with an asterisk pointing out that many apparently consider StoneSkin a pointless waste of time and MP, though I personally do not.

Alternately I can leave this note here.

:)


Since Cure is so weak that the high level boss auto attacks overwhelm it, it's a patent waste of MP, Protect is cast by Healers and lasts 30 minutes so outside solo use it's not really worth using. Raise is, as I pointed out, unusable in any meaningful way, it even being quicker to switch to WHM out of combat to perform the raise, rather than messing around with cross skill settings and waiting for the cool down. That leaves Stoneskin as the only skill that is useful in the 4 we're talking about, and some strongly question that too.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

snip

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I keep Stoneskin on my first cross skill slot just incase the healer doesn't have it crossed or we're in a dungeon where it's locked by the level sync.I personally find it to be worth the skill slot (Since PLD's Raise is 100% worthless, Protect is usually a moot point, and cure is less useful than a potion). There's really not a lot of cross skills that are worth a slot. Like I'm never, not even once, going tp cross Skull Sunder on Dragoon so it's not even considered. But Pugilist's Second Wind is certainly valuable. It just so happens that more than half of PLD's cross skills are unusable or borderline useless. Stoneskin is not one of those how ever.