The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

So I just need to collect crystals and pray?
Brb mining 9999 ice shards.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

So I just need to collect crystals and pray?
Brb mining 9999 ice shards.

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Go with the clusters, they'd work better.

I was kind of surprised to see so much resistance to the idea that it was a bastard surname (to the point that, hey, maybe he had two battle titles and they nixed the surname on his public memorial in favor of the less popular one).

It's a core feature of Haurchefant's character that the most chivalrous member of House Fortemps was supposedly beneath its name. It's almost more offensive to raise him up after he's dead, isn't it? Treating him like he earned an upgraded name when in truth he humbled those who bear it? When it comes to what goes down in history, Haurchefant Greystone is an example that I wouldn't want diluted by a posthumous feel-good gesture.

If in-world logic isn't enough, though, let's come out-of-world for a minute.
Haurchefant needed a quick-but-meaningful backstory and they invoked Jon Snow.

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

Hey guys,

Just popping in to remove all ambiguity: Greystone is a bastard surname. That is all. Carry on!

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Yay. Thanks for the answer, however brief - I quoted it in the OP for reference. I still wonder though, if there are other bastard monikers, or if all bastards are called Greystone.

I'm guessing that "a bastard surname" means that they have surnames that they just give to bastards? Do we know if the Heavens' Ward members who seem to have similar surnames have bastard surnames or are those titles?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

I'm guessing that "a bastard surname" means that they have surnames that they just give to bastards?

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Bastard surnames are a common theme in one huge franchise at the moment, and not really that big of a thing elsewhere. By the ancient rite of shibboleth, I suspect that you are not a big fan of the works of George R. R. Martin. (Shun the nonbeliever! Shunnn! Shunnnn-n-n-nuh...)

In Westeros, there are seven kingdoms (and a further two regions) where noble families customarily (but not necessarily) give bastard children a surname that separates them from their father's house. For example, if you're a noble bastard from the North, your trueborn siblings would inherit your father's name, but you would have the surname Snow. If you were from the Vale, it would be Stone. The Riverlands, it would be Rivers. And so on. If your dad got around, he might have some of each. It just signifies that you are not in the line of inheritance (unless something catastrophic happens to your bloodline and the king signs a decree re-establishing the name and title upon the bastard to keep it going). In a lot of cases, you also get treated like crap by snobby nobles.

My assumption is that using the name Haurchefant Greystone was a way to invoke our contemporary cultural knowledge to let a big enough chunk of people know what's up that they can fill in the rest. If you know Jon Snow, you have a lot of context for what's up with Haurchefant (not that they didn't explain it good'nuff between the MSQ and the Tales from the Dragonsong War).

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Originally Posted by ExKage

Do we know if the Heavens' Ward members who seem to have similar surnames have bastard surnames or are those titles?

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It's a pretty safe bet that unless you're told otherwise, you're looking battle nicknames and not bastard surnames.
Even Haurchefant wasn't Haurchefant Greystone in battle.

To be fair, bastard surnames are an actual tradition that GRRM just expanded on. The illegitimate children of English royals were sometimes called Fitzroy or "son of the king". But yeah, this is definitely invoking GRRM's works.

Can someone give us Aymeric's last name (*'=') I need to get all my bastards in a row here

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I was kind of surprised to see so much resistance to the idea that it was a bastard surname (to the point that, hey, maybe he had two battle titles and they nixed the surname on his public memorial in favor of the less popular one).

It's a core feature of Haurchefant's character that the most chivalrous member of House Fortemps was supposedly beneath its name. It's almost more offensive to raise him up after he's dead, isn't it? Treating him like he earned an upgraded name when in truth he humbled those who bear it? When it comes to what goes down in history, Haurchefant Greystone is an example that I wouldn't want diluted by a posthumous feel-good gesture.

If in-world logic isn't enough, though, let's come out-of-world for a minute.
Haurchefant needed a quick-but-meaningful backstory and they invoked Jon Snow.

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I agree completely. His surname "Greystone" Should live on not house that could not claim him as their son.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Bastard surnames are a common theme in one huge franchise at the moment, and not really that big of a thing elsewhere. By the ancient rite of shibboleth, I suspect that you are not a big fan of the works of George R. R. Martin. (Shun the nonbeliever! Shunnn! Shunnnn-n-n-nuh...)

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I apologize all A Song of Ice and Fire fans! I am awaiting the end of the series to continue reading, books in particular to save my heart from tearing up inside from angst over some of those who I briefly fell in love with. Or his death.

:|

It makes sense that he's still considered a Greystone as opposed to a Fortemp. His father might recognize him as his son, but he's not been officially named a Fortemp due to Ishgardian politics, most likely. We know just how rigid Ishgard is with tradition, recognizing and having a bastard live with the head household is scandal. I'd imagine it'll be an even greater scandal if they made him into a Fortemp. With inheritance and all.

And knowing Haurchefant and his father, it would not surprise me at all if his father planned on making it official, but Haurchefant refused.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

I am awaiting the end of the series to continue reading, books in particular

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I look forward to discussing it with you as we point out references in the lore of FFXVII Online.

(Not that he shouldn't take as long as is required to be completely comfortable with them. I would.)

Posthumously inducting Haurchefant into House Fortemps would ruin the point of his character.

Gosh, that's kinda sad when you think about it.. Knowing that his memorial and the minion are both by house Hallienarte(granted the minion was crafted by the first born son). That means when his close childhood friend Francel was to pick a last name for Haurchefant's memorial. He basically picked Greystone instead of using Haurchefant's battle title (of the silver fuller) that he was known for and had fought for.
I mean it's a memorial so he didn't have to immortalize Haurchefant's bastard status, but the fact that it now is, is kinda sad.

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

Gosh, that's kinda sad when you think about it.. Knowing that his memorial and the minion are both by house Hallienarte(granted the minion was crafted by the first born son). That means when his close childhood friend Francel was to pick a last name for Haurchefant's memorial. He basically picked Greystone instead of using Haurchefant's battle title (of the silver fuller) that he was known for and had fought for.
I mean it's a memorial so he didn't have to immortalize Haurchefant's bastard status, but the fact that it now is, is kinda sad.

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I would like to ask if we know anything about Ishgardian funereally laws. I want to see if there's anything requiring the use of the deceased name, bastard surname and all, on tombstones

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I was kind of surprised to see so much resistance to the idea that it was a bastard surname (to the point that, hey, maybe he had two battle titles and they nixed the surname on his public memorial in favor of the less popular one).

It's a core feature of Haurchefant's character that the most chivalrous member of House Fortemps was supposedly beneath its name. It's almost more offensive to raise him up after he's dead, isn't it? Treating him like he earned an upgraded name when in truth he humbled those who bear it? When it comes to what goes down in history, Haurchefant Greystone is an example that I wouldn't want diluted by a posthumous feel-good gesture.

If in-world logic isn't enough, though, let's come out-of-world for a minute.
Haurchefant needed a quick-but-meaningful backstory and they invoked Jon Snow.

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I just want to clarify that I'm not saddened about the fact that he didn't receiven an 'upgrade' upon his death by being called a Fortemps or something like that. :)
I'm saddened that they make such a distinction as in giving him a very obviously non-Ishgardian name, so that it's quite obvious for everyone who ever met an Elezen that something's wrong with his family name. I would have been quite okay with him bearing an Elezen-like surname that could have also been argued to be his mother's. But, what they did is make it so obvious even an blind idiot can see it. I hope I explained it right, since I know that's not always my forte.
But, well. Being accepted into a family usually includes bearing that family's name.

I am, however, aware of where this comes from. I know about that naming convention for bastards in Game of Thrones, and I'm also very aware about where Martin got his inspiration from. 'Fitzroy' was already mentioned, but there is also a very real, and later on very powerful british noble house - the House Beaufort. They where illegitimate decendants of John of Gaunt, before being legitimized when he was actually able to marry their mother. Still, the fact remains that they where originally bastards, and surely suffered from that. So, yeah. I guess my main peeve is that society brands children for something they got no say in... until today, even if to a much lesser extend.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I was kind of surprised to see so much resistance to the idea that it was a bastard surname (to the point that, hey, maybe he had two battle titles and they nixed the surname on his public memorial in favor of the less popular one).

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I think the confusion here comes from Haurchefant Greystone (now confirmed a bastard surname) has the same style to it as, say Paulecrain Coldfire (we don't know if he's a bastard), Estinien Wyrmblood (probably not) and Artoirel Ironbone (we know he is not). It could be that Greystone refers to place of birth and the rule is if it sounds fancier or not at all like a potential place description it's a battle name. Still, it would be a lot clearer if battle titles were all displayed as "of the" or "the".

This is what initially confused me, anyroad. But I am not a clever woman.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I would like to ask if we know anything about Ishgardian funereally laws. I want to see if there's anything requiring the use of the deceased name, bastard surname and all, on tombstones

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Well what we do know is that his memorial by the lover's stone overlooking Ishgard isn't his actual grave, but a memorial commissioned by Francel. So it isn't his actual grave but a stone set in honor for him. My guess is that he's probably buried at a family burial site or near it. But that's all speculation on my part since we don't know where he's actually buried.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

I'm really starting to hate Ishgard now...

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Only now?

Midgardsormr's opinion of it was pretty much spot on ("Delusion. Despair. Death. Thou shall find naught else here").

Even though we started "fixing" it a bit more, I still believe it should burn.
If only because SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED.
And by sickness, I mean its people (or at the very least the Holy See itself).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Only now?

Midgardsormr's opinion of it was pretty much spot on ("Delusion. Despair. Death. Thou shall find naught else here").

Even though we started "fixing" it a bit more, I still believe it should burn.
If only because SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED.
And by sickness, I mean its people (or at the very least the Holy See itself).

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Sorry, but for me, genocide can NEVER be the solution. Yes, Ishgard started the war. Yes, the Holy See and the High Houses suppressed ~90% of the citizens through lies and terror. Still, by purging the entire city, you will involuntarily kill an awful lot of innocent people. It would put us on the same step as the Garleans and Ascians. It is exactly what Nidhogg is doing, punishing people for the misstakes of their ancestors. That's something I really despise.
If you want to change something, do it with means that are actually helpful. Like, replacing the government, changing its structures from within... oh, wait, we are already doing this. So sorry that change actually needs time.

And people aren't a 'sickness', by the way.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Sorry, but for me, genocide can NEVER be the solution. Yes, Ishgard started the war. Yes, the Holy See and the High Houses suppressed ~90% of the citizens through lies and terror. Still, by purging the entire city, you will involuntarily kill an awful lot of innocent people. It would put us on the same step as the Garleans and Ascians. It is exactly what Nidhogg is doing, punishing people for the misstakes of their ancestors. That's something I really despise.
If you want to change something, do it with means that are actually helpful. Like, replacing the government, changing its structures from within... oh, wait, we are already doing this. So sorry that change actually needs time.

And people aren't a 'sickness', by the way.

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It was a joke, sort of.

"The sickness must be purged!" is what Charibert keeps yelling in the Vault

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Sorry, but for me, genocide can NEVER be the solution. Yes, Ishgard started the war. Yes, the Holy See and the High Houses suppressed ~90% of the citizens through lies and terror. Still, by purging the entire city, you will involuntarily kill an awful lot of innocent people. It would put us on the same step as the Garleans and Ascians. It is exactly what Nidhogg is doing, punishing people for the misstakes of their ancestors. That's something I really despise.
If you want to change something, do it with means that are actually helpful. Like, replacing the government, changing its structures from within... oh, wait, we are already doing this. So sorry that change actually needs time.

And people aren't a 'sickness', by the way.

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I know...and this is basically what I hate about the current situation.

We just can't win, because:

a) Despite our best efforts, people will still act like (suicidal) idiots.

Just look at what happened with Teledji, Ilberd and the Holy See.
Even with our legendary status and (most importantly) our good intentions, people still think that getting rid of us is the best solution.

b) The Ascians (which we know nothing about, nor do we question about) still continue to pull the strings on everything, effectively being 2-3 steps ahead of us.

It's just...so easy to lose heart right now, and even makes you wonder if Eorzea (or even Hydaelyn itself) is worth saving at this point...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I was kind of surprised to see so much resistance to the idea that it was a bastard surname (to the point that, hey, maybe he had two battle titles and they nixed the surname on his public memorial in favor of the less popular one).

It's a core feature of Haurchefant's character that the most chivalrous member of House Fortemps was supposedly beneath its name. It's almost more offensive to raise him up after he's dead, isn't it? Treating him like he earned an upgraded name when in truth he humbled those who bear it? When it comes to what goes down in history, Haurchefant Greystone is an example that I wouldn't want diluted by a posthumous feel-good gesture.

If in-world logic isn't enough, though, let's come out-of-world for a minute.
Haurchefant needed a quick-but-meaningful backstory and they invoked Jon Snow.

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I think for most people (at least pre-dev commentary) it was less resistance and more speculation because it wasn't explained at all, and knowing where the inspiration for it is from doesn't really count as an explanation, especially when you factor in that there ARE people that either don't like or just don't watch/read GoT. It wouldn't have been that hard to have a single NPC mention it, maybe someone in Camp Dragonhead, or perhaps Francel. And WHAT backstory? We already knew he was a bastard, and the introduction of the lore for it was just kinda tossed in there with a single word in a minion description. Not sure "meaningful" really applies to anything about "Greystone".

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

It's just...so easy to lose heart right now, and even makes you wonder if Eorzea (or even Hydaelyn itself) is worth saving at this point...

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"I'm not strong at all... I was even betrayed by the same people I protected... I don't want to anyone else to sacrifice themselves for me... I'm not the Warrior of Light... who cares what will happen to Hydaelyn...? I don't want to fight anymore... it's not like anyone appreciates it anyway... there's no way we can beat Zodiark...! It's the Scions' problem... not mine... I can't choose the future!"

"Even so, I...!"

... ok, done being a dork for now.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Haurchefant needed a quick-but-meaningful backstory and they invoked Jon Snow.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

And WHAT backstory? We already knew he was a bastard, and the introduction of the lore for it was just kinda tossed in there with a single word in a minion description. Not sure "meaningful" really applies to anything about "Greystone".

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More the other way around - they invoked the Jon-Snow-like background early on in Heavensward (brother's quests) and then later applied a bastard surname that fit the invocation.

It's really hammered home by the item description of the very same minion: What isn't dead (or is recreated in a goldsmith's workshop) can never die. Even that is an A Song of Ice and Fire joke based on a prayer to the Drowned God.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

Let Theon your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel.

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Originally Posted by Theon

What is dead may never die.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

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Inb4 more Haurchefant resurrection theories.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

More the other way around - they invoked the Jon-Snow-like background early on in Heavensward (brother's quests) and then later applied a bastard surname that fit the invocation.

It's really hammered home by the item description of the very same minion: What isn't dead (or is recreated in a goldsmith's workshop) can never die. Even that is an A Song of Ice and Fire joke based on a prayer to the Drowned God.

Inb4 more Haurchefant resurrection theories.

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/inserts Haurchefant ressurection theory
http://i.imgur.com/koxTDTw.jpg
http://36.media.tumblr.com/c2b7eef3e...by9o1_1280.png
http://i.imgur.com/kFAv3PQ.jpg

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

[Haurchefant Ixion]

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http://36.media.tumblr.com/caf0f1036...qgylbb_500.png
(Yes, that is Haurchefant.)

Also, can we start calling the ixion-centaur-thing Horsechefant? I'm gonna start calling it Horsechefant.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

http://36.media.tumblr.com/caf0f1036...qgylbb_500.png
(Yes, that is Haurchefant.)

Also, can we start calling the ixion-centaur-thing Horsechefant? I'm gonna start calling it Horsechefant.

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The Ixion-Haurchefant/ascian resurrection theories have amassed enough popularity on social media, might as well give the most heart wrenching one a cute name like Horsechefant lol

Although the vast majority of us would ugly cry if we had to put him down.

I am getting kind of sick of all the Song of Ice and Fire references in this game. Fine series of books/shows but come on, already.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Inb4 more Haurchefant resurrection theories.

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/draws a deep breath....


No I don't really think he's coming back unless it is as Ixion or an Ascian puppet (we know what they can do with fresh corpses). Coming back to life for realsies is unlikely....sort of.

I don't think SE really planned for this character to skyrocket in popularity like this.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I don't think SE really planned for [Haurchefant] to skyrocket in popularity like this.

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I get the feeling they didn't (he only had a short series of quests in 2.0's MSQ), but the fact is after asking the Warrior of Light for a small favor he's nothing but friendly and enthusiastic. Compared to the rest of the Warrior of Light's "friends," he treats you more like a person than a tool - your alliance with the Scions was done mostly because they thought you would be a useful asset to the organization (and thus the realm), not because they actually liked you, and the Grand Company leaders were similar. You may have become friends over time, but it was largely an alliance of convenience (for them) that could have played out like my reaction to the average episode of Dora the Explorer.

Local Archon: "You wanna join the Scions of the Seventh Dawn and help protect the realm?"
Warrior of Light: "Not really...?"
Local Archon: "Great! Meet me at the Waking Sands in Vesper Bay, Western Thanalan!"

Compare to Haurchefant, who asks you a (relatively) small favor he just can't do because of his station and is eternally and genuinely grateful for it. Even if he is more than a little flamboyant, especially in the Japanese dialogue.

That said, I do wish they'd stop laying him on quite so thick.

Yeah, I agree that the Devs did not see Haurchefant becoming as popular with the fans as he did in 3.0 (unlike Moenbryda et al)which is why he have many post-Heavensward development.

It's nice to know now that Ishgard, perhaps even Eorzea, has a GoT-style bastard last names.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I get the feeling they didn't (he only had a short series of quests in 2.0's MSQ), but the fact is after asking the Warrior of Light for a small favor he's nothing but friendly and enthusiastic. Compared to the rest of the Warrior of Light's "friends," he treats you more like a person than a tool - your alliance with the Scions was done mostly because they thought you would be a useful asset to the organization (and thus the realm), not because they actually liked you, and the Grand Company leaders were similar.

That said, I do wish they'd stop laying him on quite so thick.

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Tbh I think it's awesome that they pay so much attention to the fanbase, I've never seen an MMO be as in tune with their audience and giving them what they want before or pay homage to popular NPC's as this one. It feels like a sincere apology from SE for killing off one of the players few genuine NPC friends. Many people i know find it suspicious as to why there's SO much content around him after he died, i mean christ most NPC's in Camp Dragonhead change dialogue several times depending on where you are in the MSQ after his death. Same with Francel and his presence by Haurchefant's monument after 3.1. Then there's all these Haurchefant items and the overall significance of his death in the MSQ and him being constantly mentioned and quoted. I doubt they'd bring him back as a primal or as an Ascian puppet (although i would find it insanely heart wrenching and interesting story wise, seeing how he can be used as a tool against the WoL) as they already have a script laid out and i bet they put all these things in for the fans since he's so popular with the JP, EU and NA fanbase.
I doubt we'll see more of Haurchefant in the future unless they pull an ixion or Ascian possession, so getting to say goodbye was nice. I was scared that he might get the Moenbryda treatment but i got pleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

It was a joke, sort of.

"The sickness must be purged!" is what Charibert keeps yelling in the Vault

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I know. In the german (and japanese, at least what I understand in the voice over) client he rants about how we are all rats/vermin and have to be purged and all. Still, this is something that's just not funny for me. :\

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

I know...and this is basically what I hate about the current situation.

We just can't win, because:

a) Despite our best efforts, people will still act like (suicidal) idiots.

Just look at what happened with Teledji, Ilberd and the Holy See.
Even with our legendary status and (most importantly) our good intentions, people still think that getting rid of us is the best solution.

b) The Ascians (which we know nothing about, nor do we question about) still continue to pull the strings on everything, effectively being 2-3 steps ahead of us.

It's just...so easy to lose heart right now, and even makes you wonder if Eorzea (or even Hydaelyn itself) is worth saving at this point...

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I agree that Heavensward is quite bleak and depressing. I felt that way from day one. The music, the storyline, the characters... However, I got the feeling that Square intends us to question if Hydaelyn really deserves to be saved. It's quite common in storytelling, I guess, to make the hero/player/both question if what they are doing actually makes sense...

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Originally Posted by Emmanellain

Tbh I think it's awesome that they pay so much attention to the fanbase, I've never seen an MMO be as in tune with their audience and giving them what they want before or pay homage to popular NPC's as this one. It feels like a sincere apology from SE for killing off one of the players few genuine NPC friends. Many people i know find it suspicious as to why there's SO much content around him after he died, i mean christ most NPC's in Camp Dragonhead change dialogue several times depending on where you are in the MSQ after his death. Same with Francel and his presence by Haurchefant's monument after 3.1. Then there's all these Haurchefant items and the overall significance of his death in the MSQ and him being constantly mentioned and quoted. I doubt they'd bring him back as a primal or as an Ascian puppet (although i would find it insanely heart wrenching and interesting story wise, seeing how he can be used as a tool against the WoL) as they already have a script laid out and i bet they put all these things in for the fans since he's so popular with the JP, EU and NA fanbase.
I doubt we'll see more of Haurchefant in the future unless they pull an ixion or Ascian possession, so getting to say goodbye was nice. I was scared that he might get the Moenbryda treatment but i got pleasantly surprised.

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It is, and I didn't see this in any MMO so far, either. It's pretty cool, really, all those small things here and there. And the portrait and all where implemented because fans demanded them, too, iirc. Would still prefer the guy to be alive, though. I, too, am sure they severely underestimated just how popular Haurchy grew with the fans.
And I'm not really sure if I could fight him should he really return as a Primal or Ascian puppet. Pretty sure it will rip me apart if that happens >.<
(Which, of course, would be the intended effect...)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I get the feeling they didn't (he only had a short series of quests in 2.0's MSQ), but the fact is after asking the Warrior of Light for a small favor he's nothing but friendly and enthusiastic. Compared to the rest of the Warrior of Light's "friends," he treats you more like a person than a tool - your alliance with the Scions was done mostly because they thought you would be a useful asset to the organization (and thus the realm), not because they actually liked you, and the Grand Company leaders were similar.

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I agree with this. If fact Alphaunad's realization that the Warrior of Light is an actual person and not just a convenient implement of mass destruction in 3.0 is a large part of what has made me start to warm to his character. With most of the Scions regardless of how much I may like their character have never really felt like friends with the WoL. Allies yes, or coworkers perhaps but if the WoL suddenly lost a leg or the Echo tomorrow and was no longer able to fight, I don't feel they'd stand by them. Feel bad, sure. Send them a gift at Starlight, sure. Maybe drop by if they were in town and not too busy. Hauchefant on the other hand I feel would have done whatever he could have to help the WoL. While he certainly found the ability to fight primals . . . er . . . impressive, the sudden lack of that ability would not have changed his regard.

The Scions are perfectly willing to risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilla in 2.55, but I ultimately felt like it was more because they believed that was the best way to protect Hydaelyn. Hauchefant's sacrifice was only to protect the WoL for no other reason then he did not want a world without them in it.

I've always felt that the surviving members of the Circle of Knowing share a comradery with each other that the other Scions are not a part of. This isn't actually a criticism of how the Scions have been portrayed given that even if you are a Legacy player you don't actually interact with them outside of "work" that much, so it is not surprising. I praise Hauchefant's character more since they managed to give him a more personal relationship with so little actual "screen time" when compared to the other characters.

Still I feel the game is poorer without Hauchefant or a truly personal friendship for the WoL. Perhaps with his sibling declaration in 3.1 the WoL will start to have a closer friendship Artoriel. Was anyone else like. . . "er Artoriel, I really don't think your brother thought of me as a sister" in that scene? Maybe he just meant sister-in-arms?

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Originally Posted by Naria

The Scions are perfectly willing to risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilla in 2.55, but I ultimately felt like it was more because they believed that was the best way to protect Hydaelyn. Hauchefant's sacrifice was only to protect the WoL for no other reason then he did not want a world without them in it.

...

Still I feel the game is poorer without Hauchefant or a truly personal friendship for the WoL. Perhaps with his sibling declaration in 3.1 the WoL will start to have a closer friendship Artoriel. Was anyone else like. . . "er Artoriel, I really don't think your brother thought of me as a sister" in that scene? Maybe he just meant sister-in-arms?

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That's ultimately what it comes down to.

Minfilia, and by extension the rest of the Scions probably, used the rationale of "You are the Warrior of Light, Eorzea's hope!" to clarify why they were willing to sacrifice themselves to keep you safe.

Haurchefant just didn't want to see you get hurt because he cared about you. That's the kind of friend someone like the Warrior of Light needs, not someone who makes you shoulder the burden of being the hope of the world. Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

Hopefully we do get more characters like Haurchefant, who are there to support you when you really need it and don't place too much pressure on you. Or send you on missions to kill primals all the time, then call you every five minutes and tell you to come back to the Waking Sands / Rising Stones.

I wouldn't mind developing a closer friendship with Artoriel; he seems like a good enough character, though I don't want him to be Haurchefant 2.0. I'm kind of worried about Emmanellain, though. And while the Warrior of Light may not have considered Haurchefant a literal brother, it may have been the other way around. Brother / sister from another mother, y'know what I'm sayin'?

I like Artoriel too or at least he grew onto me a little bit but I really hope that they don't intend him to be Haurchefant 2.0 or someone similar..I am not sure why but it would really anger me..I am still after all this time not over the fact that they just killed off one of the only characters in the game that kinda saw us as a true friend or even more..maybe they realized after his death that a character like him is in a way necessary for the story to balance out all of this tragedy and sorrow but I don't want to have someone else like him at my side..I am really thankful that they gave us all these items and that they still included him in some way into the story but I really just want him back :(. But if they ever bring him back with the intend that we have to kill him again..well than I will just stop playing the story..I don't like too much tragedy and drama which is also the reason why I don't watch/read GoT.

In the end thanks to his death (and Ysayle´s) I barely care for any other character at all. Heck I barely care what will happen to Eorzea. I may overreact a little bit but I am just getting so tired about seeing my favorite characters die..Especially if they only die to create more drama...

Its just really nice to see so many comments about him and how many people cared for him. Even in my FC there are alot of people still really sad about it. Nice to see what a great character he was but at the same time his death showed me that I better not care much for other nice characters because it seems that these are the ones that get killed by SE..

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Originally Posted by Naria

Was anyone else like. . . "er Artoriel, I really don't think your brother thought of me as a sister" in that scene? Maybe he just meant sister-in-arms?

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Well we know Haurchefant constantly blabbered on about the player to his family, but despite that i'm pretty sure Artoriel didn't know what kind of relationship the WoL had with Haurchefant. Artoriel himself did confirm that his relationship with his half brother was not a close one. Take that and the players reaction to his death into consideration and it's safe to say that Artoriel just figured you two were close in a sibling-kind-of-way. The idea that his bastard half brother might have been in a romantic relationship with the mighty warrior of light could be an idea so absurd that he probably didn't even consider it, seeing how station and birth is important in Ishgardian society.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I wouldn't mind developing a closer friendship with Artoriel; he seems like a good enough character, though I don't want him to be Haurchefant 2.0. I'm kind of worried about Emmanellain, though.[/size]

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To be honest i got a suspicious vibe when i watched Artoriel through the 3.1 storyline, if you go and rewatch the cutscenes his father frowns at him when he speaks right before you enter the vault and Emmanellain who is usually very carefree and fun was absolutely livid at his brother by the end of the MSQ patch. My Fiance and i sat down a whole afternoon and watched the cutscenes from Heavensward with Artoriel in them and we found his new behavior odd, it kinda feels like he's acting a little like his half brother to become more likeable to the WoL in 3.1, although as someone have already stated this might just be character development on his part. But I don't know.. he was smirking when he left the room to go after the angry Emmanellain..

But aside from that there's definetly something wrong brewing in the Fortemps household, you have to wonder why Edmont didn't even lift a brow when his oldest son offered to put down his sword in the vault while his middle child is still "warm in his coffin" as Lucia says. Rather he frowns when Artoriel speaks up as if what he said was the stupidest thing he had ever heard. Then to follow it up by gushing over Aymeric when they get out with his "I see much of Haurchefant in you" while Artoriel is right there behind him.
I don't know man, It seems fishy!

I'll be honest and say I hope SE does not being our friend back in primal form. That would invalidate the drama of his death--let him rest and focus on the other Fortemps men.

Which is why I was glad to see Artoirel's personality take shape. He wants to aim higher for Aymeric and the Fortemps family's sake, whereas Emmanellain is stumbling so soon after saying he wanted to be admired just like Haurchefant. Meanwhile, Edmont seems to have written them both off in favor of a guy who's not even directly related.

More like this, please.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I like Artoriel too or at least he grew onto me a little bit but I really hope that they don't intend him to be Haurchefant 2.0 or someone similar..I am not sure why but it would really anger me..I am still after all this time not over the fact that they just killed off one of the only characters in the game that kinda saw us as a true friend or even more..maybe they realized after his death that a character like him is in a way necessary for the story to balance out all of this tragedy and sorrow but I don't want to have someone else like him at my side..

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I honestly do not think that Artoirel will become the new Haurchefant, but I do believe his character is attempting to be seen similar to Haurchefant. He feels extremely insincere to me. When he says things similar to Haurchefant in the cut scenes where his father or Emmanellain is around, note their reactions. When they are talking about storming the Vault, his comment makes his father look at him as if he questioning what Artoirel said. Emmanellain has a down right negative reaction with Artoirel quoting Haurchefant. It is confirmed that Artoirel and Haurchefant were not close, unlike his father and younger brother. There is obvious snubbing towards Artoirel which is pushing him to try and act like Haurchefant, which we can only assume is his attempt to gain his father's love. I believe that Count Edmont loved Haurchefant over his two legitimate sons and now that he is gone, Artoirel probably feels he can fill the void that Haurchefant has left. But his father is clearly not noticing Artoirel, no matter the fact that he has shown to be competent through the Vault and so far we know he is a responsible son, especially when compared to Emmanellain. Yet, despite the fact that he has shown himself capable, his father's love is directed once more away from him and onto Aymeric. His facade of being Haurchefant is not going to end up with him being Haurchefant 2.0, I think it is going to reveal more about the Fortemps and shed light into the family's miss comings at the least. At the most, Artoirel I think will use our trust in him to betray not only us, but his own father. The latter I am leaning towards. Think about it, what else would a son do in his position where he can't gain the love he wishes from his father. I think that will be the story and character development behind Artoirel.