"Hi, im new"

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Originally Posted by ValkyrNacht

Tanks don't read, that's what SCH are for.

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SMN also read.

Many in this thread are the reason why we have to wait so long for tanks in duty finder. So many are afraid that some nerd without a personality and plays too much is going to judge and shoot them down for trying. So what! You might die trying when doing a dungeon? You sign up to duty finder, expect the worst

I think that dungeons are so generic, thats no problem if somebody is new. Issues can came up if somebody do not know how to play at all. But its not because he/she is new to dungeon.

I don't know about this. A few days ago me and my friend(PLD) were working on unlocking our hard roulettes (I'm rather new to the game and so is he) and while I usually read a guide to the dungeon I didn't have time when we went to Qarn Hard (those tank queues caught me by surprise). We said we were new, nothing from the other two. Trash pulls went fine but the first boss was different. My friend asked for some advice but nothing, not even a peep. We wiped twice because half the party (tank and one dps) had no idea what to do (well I just hit the boss but I'm just a dps and I know we're not very important). So we might have been at fault for not looking up a guide for the dungeon but I still wish that the other people would have said something.

Hi! I'm new!
This is crazy...
But here's my macro.
/p Provoke... @!D@$*(K' OH GOD WHY!?
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Heal me, maybe?

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Outside of trials and raids and unless you're new to Sastasha normal, "hi, I'm new" is not a free pass to derp it up. Seeing too much of that excuse lately in lvl 51+ dungeons when healers can't heal through party wide damage, tanks can't control aggro in non-lvl synced parties and deeps don't dodge AoEs or burn adds.

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It's hard to deal with some who are new because they do not want to listen. Still, this subject is something that can be taken to an extreme on both sides. There is no real way of correcting this issue mainly because you're dealing with it on a person by person basis.

I am taking my tanks to 60, when I go in I do say I'm still new to the dungeon. I haven't gotten the pull route down 100%, I'm 52 in a dungeon that caps at 53 but want to get my gear up there a bit more other than what I have. Boss mechanics..I look up but take any advice, as long as it's done in a positive way.

Still, there have been new people..people in AV who had gear ranging from lv15 and up, wondering why we can't take a boss down quick. Healers in VIT gear or none at all on their accessory side. I've mentioned I'm new and have mixed responses, one was a tank who was trying to learn to heal and we helped each other out "You can pull to the door it's fine" now I know.

Then there have been people who run a head and pull, then it's a mixture of things also. If the healer is good but the DPS runs in and takes over pulling more things to me, I'll save them for the healers sake. Other times, I am trying to learn what I can take due to my level, gear, abilities, mob abilities, what the DPS are doing and how the healer is performing. Each of those takes time, maybe a pull or two for me to realize maybe I can take more.

Guildhests use to be wonderful, I used them to test out HUD \ Macros and get the blood flowing for getting into the tanking mood. The laziness of the new people mixed with the impatient veterans combined in a dungeon makes everything more of a chore than fun.

From what the OP described, no there's no need to pull and face things to the blm, but just know it's not a black and white problem..for every new player out there not willing to learn, there is one who is. For ever veteran player who gets upset due to the run taking up "precious" time of theirs, there's users who have the patience. It ranges, you shouldn't have to take the slow route each time, after a bit you take things to what you're comfortable with and what the party can sustain.

There is no solution to this because each person is different, except hoping that in time these bad players learn and that is something that I don't see happening for the most part. Some refuse to take advice, others will not take advice if you slap a bunch of insults in there

Those times in WoD, when the tank would be spinning the boss. You ask them to stop. And they start screaming about being new and cutting slack...

Umm, I didn't know you needed to relearn keeping the boss facing one way in each piece of new content.

"Well spinning the boss didn't work, maybe I'll try that other method that has worked in every other dungeon in the game..."

New is fine, understandable and if mentioned, it can be improved upon with helpful tips and warnings about things that will happen.

Lazy, ignorant and stupid doesn't, can't and well, it usually culminates in the token rage quit.

(been finding a holy tonne of the latter in A1 normal recently, despite none of the people being 'first-timers') -_-

The thing is, there're, like, one million guides on the internet allowing everyone to know a dungeon, or at least boss strats, before entering this said dungeon. So even "I'm new" is not an excuse, imo.

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Originally Posted by Ortamus

Many in this thread are the reason why we have to wait so long for tanks in duty finder. So many are afraid that some nerd without a personality and plays too much is going to judge and shoot them down for trying. So what! You might die trying when doing a dungeon? You sign up to duty finder, expect the worst

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You can try at level 15 (for PLD and WAR) or 30 (for DRK) when it's not "that bad" to be bad. At level 51+, it far too late. You had 20~35 levels to learn the basis, it's more than enough unless you're too lazy to use your brain.

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Originally Posted by Lharz

The thing is, there're, like, one million guides on the internet allowing everyone to know a dungeon, or at least boss strats, before entering this said dungeon. So even "I'm new" is not an excuse, imo.

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Stop being a lazy player and educate the newbies on the currently accepted strategy for that dungeon.

When was the last time any of those "guides" were updated since the content was brand new. Several guides are at least partially useless after over gearing has taken effect. There are many examples of dungeons where mechanics are now just face rolled because they cannot wipe your party any more.

Examples:
1. Lost City of Amdapor; no one does the gates any more.
2. Wanders Palace; King enrage stacks, bah, kill add, what for, stack behind the king? why bother, etc....
3. Cutter's Cry; first boss, guides say how kill the adds, everyone has the healer kite the adds while recasting regen as needed; while tank and DPS burn the boss.
4. Hullbreaker Isle; first boss, who bothers with the bananas any more?
5. Copperbell Mines; guides say to kill the gigas as they spawn, everyone just burns the boss.

etc... There are many more.

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Originally Posted by Lharz

The thing is, there're, like, one million guides on the internet allowing everyone to know a dungeon, or at least boss strats, before entering this said dungeon. So even "I'm new" is not an excuse, imo.

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See, now this is the kind of thinking I don't get. Why the hell would a new player, clearly enjoying the game long enough to reach that point, EVER have to look up a guide for a dungeon they have yet to run? That's like asking someone to know the ending of the story before actually reading the book. The kind of backwards thinking that dissuades a lot of people in certain roles, tanks and healers especially, who are pressured to know and anticipate mechanics of certain fights and have their abilities and gear prepared beforehand. In my case, I always ask prior to starting dungeons/trials if the players know what to do and give them a bare-bones rundown and anticipate a wipe. Then answer their questions and allow them to learn at their own pace.

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Originally Posted by Ykronix

See, now this is the kind of thinking I don't get. Why the hell would a new player, clearly enjoying the game long enough to reach that point, EVER have to look up a guide for a dungeon they have yet to run?

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It is simple. Do you care more about yourself or your group?

The players who read guides are more prepared for the fight than they were before reading them. Even when they learn almost nothing.

I can't understand why would you waste other players' time when you can easily read up info about the run before your queue gets ready. It just looks really lazy imo.

Seems someone answered for me.

Dungeons are not solo play. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

-snip-

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I guess your outlook really depends on what's more important to you- clearing content or experiencing it. If you're main concern is getting through with little to no hassle, you'd be better off forming a pre-made part with like-minded people. Otherwise, I honestly just see it as unreasonable to expect every person you're grouped with on Duty Finder to just automatically know what to do in a dungeon. Often people are in it for MSQ purposes, are continuing from main missions and probably don't even have time to bother running to a computer to look up a guide before their queue is up.

Of course, this entitlement to 'other players' is going to be argued to death- I've seen a lot of them, with the obvious disregard for the people who spent less time playing than the impatient veterans who feel they owe them nothing.

I think (personnaly, so I don't take my opinion as the official almighty truth) that people who wants to experience the game to the point of intentionaly avoiding to read guides & stuff (for spoilers reasons probably), these guys are far, reaaaaally far from being the larger part of the players base. But I might be wrong. And anyway, that's doesn't invalidate Archaell's (and mine also) point above.

So yeah, pro players should find their statics (which they do), but in that case, "RolePlay / Casual / <insert whatever you want>" players should do this too.

Oh and, yeah, just a little side note, spitting on players who want performance before experience is just as dumb. Just sayin'.

Edit : also I forgot to point something. If these players don't want to spoil themself and want to experience the game as if they play solo, then why 99.9999% of them ask for boss strat before engaging ? Tell me.

If someone wants to run content "blind", the only way to really do it is to form a PF of all blind runners. Otherwise you are just kidding yourself and having others with experience do the bulk of the work to cover your own laziness.

Dungeons can be run fairly easily with a blind person or two, or even a group. But if you are going into trials or raids blind, you are in the wrong and being selfish to your group. Those are complicated fights with many mechanics that can wipe the group. Your need to see the non existant story there doesn't hold water. Most guides don't show the cutscenes, and if it's a written one, they don't include the story, just bullet points. Please stop making excuses for having others carry you.

Also:

There is a big difference between not knowing the mechanics in a new dungeon, and not knowing your role basics by level 60, which is what the thread is actually about.

Don't assume my trying to support new players is 'spitting' on veteran preferences. For anything to be known, someone had to experience it first. Someone can be spoonfed a strategy or learn to do it on their own terms-keyword here is 'compromise'. To speak like people feel entitled to a quick clear despite someone else never having run and wanting to actually want to experience it on their own pace is just as bad as expecting veteran players to come and waste their time overcompensating for a group that isn't prepared for it. Both sides have their compromises, but damning one side because you think its 'lazy' or 'elitist' doesn't help the playing community as a whole, to encourage new players to keep playing and do the same to those newer than them, and in my personal opinion, puts it a step higher than other games just because it fights to keep that toxicity to a minimum.

And my response started in response to one specific post, not the thread, fyi.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It is simple. Do you care more about yourself or your group?

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Myself. Now what? Did i ever claim to care about you? xD

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I can't understand why would you waste other players' time when you can easily read up info about the run before your queue gets ready. It just looks really lazy imo.

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I wouldnt wanna read/watch full summaries before seeing a movie. And no I do not mean the story of ff14.
The movies plot is the equal to the games mechanics, design, artwork and everything that can experienced.
Also, i cant. I miss the pop when i close game to open ps4 browser and read for minutes. Good point tho

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Originally Posted by Lharz

I think (personnaly, so I don't take my opinion as the official almighty truth) that people who wants to experience the game to the point of intentionaly avoiding to read guides & stuff (for spoilers reasons probably), these guys are far, reaaaaally far from being the larger part of the players base. But I might be wrong. And anyway, that's doesn't invalidate Archaell's (and mine also) point above.

So yeah, pro players should find their statics (which they do), but in that case, "RolePlay / Casual / <insert whatever you want>" players should do this too

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Also just a view, BUT if you DID consider it fact and review the topic it might share light:
As far as 0815 dungeons go, the majority does them blind. I did all of them, never got kicked or failed one, take hints thinking its guys who have exp/ run this and WANTING to tell, and happily live on after finishing it now knowing better. Same if people who went out to read guides but dont say a thing "carry". If im scrub and fail AND party does i applaud for good content teaching me, not textlines

Since its the majority, they get beneficially catered via df and even forced other players to play along via roulette. There was another thread, maybe ill edit in link. They dont need to find anything, its the df

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Edit : also I forgot to point something. If these players don't want to spoil themself and want to experience the game as if they play solo, then why 99.9999% of them ask for boss strat before engaging ? Tell me.

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A) they really care 0, not to preview stuff, but can also take spoilers without gettin their exp ruined. Its not like you telling them "kill add xy, it buffs boss" showed them anything of the content a yt video had. And its not like you would tell them LOTS of DETAILS they could use but wont really need. Guides are different. You are lazy too, so its need to know basis ("spoonfed")

B) they have experienced certain players enough to know "ok i can clear ALL of this blind, but theres usually 1 or 2 wipe inducing exceptions easy to tell. If we do wipe, they cry. Ill offer a compromise

C) im sure your numbers are off. Maybe 50 will let you know its their 1st run overall, 33 of those 50 might ask for tips specifically, thinking you get upset if they fail cuz no knowledge but wont explain by yourself despite that entry line. Few will care to wipe themselves as you seem to be trying to suggest. They just offer a compromise to others in many cases. If all are new they sometimes wipe a few till they get lucky, OR, figured it out themselves (hmmmmmmm spoonfed is highly subjective. These guys work hard to learn, no?). There can be even talk among them like "okay any of you noticed how this works?"

D) why is the answer 80 percent of the time "the usual. Dodge aoe, kill adds before boss"? I read that guide a couple of times trololo