Shields & Parrying in 1.19

I agree, in my opinion, there should be a greater advantage to shields. Its quit logical for shield parry's in which you deflect a blow with your shield just as likely as you would do a full block.

Samurai will parry so they had to have the parry materia for swords :)

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Sorry for taking so long to get a response to you all about this. This isn't actually a bug, as with the changes made in patch 1.19, you can only focus on blocking when you have a shield equipped and will be unable to parry.

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Why did they changed it? It was nice to parry and block. Any thoughts on why they decided to change it?

I was sad to read it was not a bug. I feel gladiators aren't really needed at this point. No parry, horrible block rate, and horrible proc rate for aegis boon and deflection after the patch made GLA weak. All of the 'hard' content they've come up with can be done without gla. Hell, I haven't watched a video on it yet, but I hear Ifrit is better tanked with LNC due to them being able to do damage?

Bayohne. This change makes no sense. In real life you CAN parry with your weapon while you have a shield up. If this was a balance change, I understand, but why wasn't this change documented in the first place? The only upside a Gladiator has now is their "larger" HP pool, but you nerf their ability to dodge stuff, nerf their blockrate, then nerf their ability to parry with their weapon (which is VERY MUCH doable in real life). I remember a forum post by someone who takes swordfighting lessons in real life and they stated that parrying with a shield is easily doable, and is one of the basics they teach you when you start their lesson.

Please let the devs know that this stuff needs to be un-nerfed. Gladiator was already a low-midtier class in 1.18 and all these stat "fixes" and whatnot seemed to have done little to making them redundant versus a MRD or PGL as a tank. Hell, even a max rank THM can tank almost as well as a GLA - that makes no sense whatsoever.

I hope with 1.20 the patch undoes this ninja nerf, as I really dislike it. As the previous poster stated: low proc rate on Aegis Boon and Deflection, crap block rate, low damage, no parry. What's the point of playing this class when there are better alternatives?

Yeah, I'm gonna have to fall on the side of Shield = No Parry is bad. It doesn't make logical sense, GLA were heavily over nerfed, and they could have given the class more depth by giving players three stats to play with.

On another point, They need to make parrying more obvious, at least for PUG they do. I honestly can almost never see it happen..

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Originally Posted by BadJoeRed

I was sad to read it was not a bug. I feel gladiators aren't really needed at this point. No parry, horrible block rate, and horrible proc rate for aegis boon and deflection after the patch made GLA weak. All of the 'hard' content they've come up with can be done without gla. Hell, I haven't watched a video on it yet, but I hear Ifrit is better tanked with LNC due to them being able to do damage?

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Our lancers and conjurers have tanked ifrit when tank dc'd or died to bad positioning+eruptions lol, once it's 50% it really doesn't matter what tanks it as long as it can keep hate. No real point in defense at that phase, just need to rotate defensive cool downs.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Sorry for taking so long to get a response to you all about this. This isn't actually a bug, as with the changes made in patch 1.19, you can only focus on blocking when you have a shield equipped and will be unable to parry.

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Tanks with shields can parry in FFXI. I don't see any reason to break from this- especially when the block rate is so low now.

I'm fine with not being able to parry, since unlike XI, parry in this simply mitigates the damage, so shield + parry is terribly redundant, but they need to do something about the abysmal shield proc rate. Without Deflection, Aegis Boon, etc, I can understand a relatively low proc rate, but even with those abilities that promise a higher block rate, it's still pretty shit tier. If I use Deflection, for the limited amount of time I have that buff up, I should be seeing something like a 60-70% block rate. I know that Square has an aversion to the traditional shield tank, with the total love/hate relationship they had with Paladin, and those months where Ninja was their golden child, but it's time to throw us a goddamn bone here.

You cant parry when you equip a shield? only block? it sounds ridicolous to me :/ you may PARRY and BLOCK...

Why can't block rate be boosted by a percentage of parry rate when wielding a shield. just make it a calculation of the two values when shield is equipped?

Also, is there going to be benefit to not using a shield on GLA? It is implied as such in the description of the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Also, is there going to be benefit to not using a shield on GLA? It is implied as such in the description of the jobs.

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The advantage is that you parry more often. Just as this thread suggests.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

The advantage is that you parry more often. Just as this thread suggests.

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With high STR it won't beat a shield for mitigation purposes though, I'm assuming she's asking about more DD oriented benefits in the future. It's likely to happen when Paladin becomes available, if not sooner (1.20)

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Originally Posted by Stufoo

With high STR it won't beat a shield for mitigation purposes though, I'm assuming she's asking about more DD oriented benefits in the future. It's likely to happen when Paladin becomes available, if not sooner (1.20)

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It's probably just not as effective as intended, or as you suggest maybe the paladin job will make it better. Either way, GLA tanks are so 1.18, it's all about MRD now. lol

Seriously, I hope something gets done about this. Increase to block or allow for parry. Aegis boon maybe gives me 1 or 2 heals in the 30 second duration with multiple mobs on me. And keeping in mind that the damage received and dealt is much lower, it's like nothing actually happened.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

...It's practically impossible to use reactionary skills now because you can never tell when they are active...

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there is a simple way to deal with this by implementing flashing frame around the skill icon, when it is ready to use.
something similar is used in other MMORPGs and it's really helpfull.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

Seriously, I hope something gets done about this. Increase to block or allow for parry. Aegis boon maybe gives me 1 or 2 heals in the 30 second duration with multiple mobs on me. And keeping in mind that the damage received and dealt is much lower, it's like nothing actually happened.

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Agreed. I feel like blocking never even happens, and even when it does it feels like it didn't do anything. Aegis Boon might have a longer duration but even with my +5 GLA trait my Kite Shield barely ever blocks.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Sorry for taking so long to get a response to you all about this. This isn't actually a bug, as with the changes made in patch 1.19, you can only focus on blocking when you have a shield equipped and will be unable to parry.

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Hi Bayohne,

Thanks for the info.

I'd like to add my voice and say: I hope Yoshida-san reconsiders this stance and restores / allows Gladiator to Parry with a Shield equipped again. Gladiator needs more effective defensive options after 1.19, unless you're planning some brand-new Abilities / Additional things in 1.20.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

It's probably just not as effective as intended, or as you suggest maybe the paladin job will make it better. Either way, GLA tanks are so 1.18, it's all about MRD now. lol

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MRD tanks were superior in Darkhold, too, so I guess GLA tanks are 1.17. SE really just can't seem to get the shield thing figured out. GLA is actually a hindrance in a PT right now because it doesn't bring enough damage to the table.

I guess spending all that time to level GLA so I could tank was pretty pointless huh...

Someone said GLA is a hinderence to a party... this makes me sad :(

Maybe the new cool will be to just stack +attack, +STR, +crit attack and completely drop the shield... what's the point if I can just parry, right?


I have to choose between Parry or Block on a tank when the chance to block low and parry does the same thing?
- Low Block chance < Parry and Parry+ materia
- Shield Skills are useless because of this

STEP 1.] Removing Shield and Shield skills grants more ability points ==> Equip more DPS moves (+attack power cross-class) and WeaponSkills

STEP 2.] Prioritize +attack, +crit attack, +str and +parry materia because GLA damage is weak

STEP 3.] ???

STEP 4.] Profit.



Looking for someone to test this theory... I don't have the gil, gear or materia to put this to the test. If anyone has GLA gear and the right materia maybe you could compare and contrast damage for us to see how much dps a gladiator can actually put out. Also see how often you parry?


EDIT:

For Glad (no shield) parry tanking: Make sure to still equip Foresight, Feather foot, Defender etc.. just skip the shield skills.

Also note that with block rate being so low, Phalanx is semi worthless. Especially when you just have to spam the button and there isnt' a noticeable indication of when you have blocked.


First test - Parry Glad tank, with some additional DPS (+attack abilities and weaponskills)
Second test - dps Glad build (straight up dps, not tanking at all)

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Originally Posted by RemVye

I guess spending all that time to level GLA so I could tank was pretty pointless huh...

Someone said GLA is a hinderence to a party... this makes me sad :(

Maybe the new cool will be to just stack +attack, +STR, +crit attack and completely drop the shield... what's the point if I can just parry, right?


I have to choose between Parry or Block on a tank when the chance to block low and parry does the same thing?
- Low Block chance < Parry and Parry+ materia
- Shield Skills are useless because of this

STEP 1.] Removing Shield and Shield skills grants more ability points ==> Equip more DPS moves (+attack power cross-class) and WeaponSkills

STEP 2.] Prioritize +attack, +crit attack, +str and +parry materia because GLA damage is weak

STEP 3.] ???

STEP 4.] Profit.



Looking for someone to test this theory... I don't have the gil, gear or materia to put this to the test. If anyone has GLA gear and the right materia maybe you could compare and contrast damage for us to see how much dps a gladiator can actually put out. Also see how often you parry?

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Remember to equip Foresight from MRD for a virtually guaranteed parry every 30 seconds. I'm not very happy about the situation either, GLA was the first combat class I ranked up and I wanted it to be my main class but if I'm going to tank the enjoyment is going to come out of doing the best job I can in that role and using GLA knowing that I'm performing suboptimally is just not going to be fun for me. Here's hoping 1.20 or 1.21 do a better job balancing GLA.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Remember to equip Foresight from MRD for a virtually guaranteed parry every 30 seconds. I'm not very happy about the situation either, GLA was the first combat class I ranked up and I wanted it to be my main class but if I'm going to tank the enjoyment is going to come out of doing the best job I can in that role and using GLA knowing that I'm performing suboptimally is just not going to be fun for me. Here's hoping 1.20 or 1.21 do a better job balancing GLA.

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Yeah, you would still equip; Featherfoot, Foresight, Defender, etc.. if you're going Parry Tank Glad with no shield

But also I'm suggesting that maybe Glad can be a plausible damage dealer as well. I'd be interested to see Glad dps numbers with the right gear setup.

You're not gonna have a good DD GLA build with defender up all the time, it lowers attack.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You're not gonna have a good DD GLA build with defender up all the time, it lowers attack.

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I know this...

Two things; test viability of GLA tank with no shield (defender is up, yes). One of the complaints mentioned was that MRD is a better tank because it can out damage GLA. So with no shield, tank as you can, but spend ability points into making GLA more dps oriented (cross-class +attack power abilities and additional WS)

Next, just a plain DPS GLA build (no defender, you're not tanking just dps) to gauge how much DPS a properly geared GLA can do. You have to have the right gear, +attack, +crit attack, +str.


So I'm curious, how much dps a fully geared DPS focused GLA can do, and how well a GLA can tank w/ a shield.

EDIT: This was a clarification of my original post at the bottom of PAGE 6. This was directed at Molly's post above me. Read the original post on page 6 please.

You're forgetting that even if you geared out for DPS tanking on gladiator, without the DPS abilities to back it up, it's not going to make much headroom against a MRD that can equip storm's path for just 5 AP. The effectiveness of any job goes far beyond gear. It touches abilities and of course player skill and execution combining all elements together.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

You're forgetting that even if you geared out for DPS tanking on gladiator, without the DPS abilities to back it up, it's not going to make much headroom against a MRD that can equip storm's path for just 5 AP. The effectiveness of any job goes far beyond gear. It touches abilities and of course player skill and execution combining all elements together.

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Sorry but did you read my post? The original one is on page 6, the last one on the page.

I find this to be a huge balance issue.
Having both my GLA and MRD at 50 I have used both as tanks now and in the past.
However now with the ifrit fight being one of the few challangeing content out, I feel very sad to see that yet again MRD is by far the superior tank.

Why? Well MRD can mignate about 20-30% incomming damage with parry alone, does about 3 times the damage while tanking(defenderII up) then a GLA and has easier time to maintain hate (basicly hate is silly easy to keep on MRD while as on GLA you actualy have to put effort in) thus making it easier just to focus on damage and survivial.

But GLA can block right? Normaly yes, but you can't block Ifrits attacks for some reason, me and 3 other LS GLAs have fought Ifrit many times and I've yet to see any block procs, making shield skills useless.

So what does GLA have over MRD as a tank? Around 50defence 300 hp and about 50mp.
Meanwhile MRD reduced alot more damage taken, does alot more damage and holds better hate.

Please SE look into balancing this, I leveled my GLA to tank and when my MRD is doing it much more efficiant I feel like GLA is a useless class to have, the only times I bring out my GLA is for casual stronghold farm content...

Its a simple fix as well, either let shield users parry, or improve block to the point where it acutaly feels worth it to bring a GLA to any highend content.

Considering I chose to level gladiator specifically to tank, if reports that marauders are better and more desired for the tanking role are true then I'd be rather disheartened.

I've been patient with this game, and have alot of faith in Yoshi and crew, but if I get to 50 and start looking for groups to tank and start getting rejected in lieu of a damage dealing class well, that might just be the straw that breaks the camels back for me and this game.

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Originally Posted by Mishakai

Considering I chose to level gladiator specifically to tank, if reports that marauders are better and more desired for the tanking role are true then I'd be rather disheartened.

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To tank effectively on MRD you still require many of the GLD skill, at least if you wana do a good job.

I see no reason to parry when you have a shield, that being said they do need to increase either the frequency of how often gladiators block (give them a trait that increases block rating) or the percentage they mitigate when they do block (give them a skill that increases the amount of mitigation done when blocking)

Maybe they have something like this planned for Paladin, I can't see them adding a job specifically designed for tanking and not have skills in place to make them good at it, isn't the MRD job going to be DD ?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

give them a trait that increases block rating

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there is one that boosts block by 5%

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Originally Posted by Jinko

give them a skill that increases the amount of mitigation done when blocking

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I believe STR is responsible for this

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Originally Posted by Jinko

To tank effectively on MRD you still require many of the GLD skill, at least if you wana do a good job.

I see no reason to parry when you have a shield, that being said they do need to increase either the frequency of how often gladiators block (give them a trait that increases block rating) or the percentage they mitigate when they do block (give them a skill that increases the amount of mitigation done when blocking)

Maybe they have something like this planned for Paladin, I can't see them adding a job specifically designed for tanking and not have skills in place to make them good at it, isn't the MRD job going to be DD ?

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Actualy tanking on MRD the only GLD skill I "need" is Sentinel to perfom succesfully, whilst if I'm tanking on GLA I want more skills from MRD(warmonger, defender II, disorient II, Intimidation trait) set to tank efficiantly.

Heres the part I find illogical with the balance, as you say MRD(while theyre designed to be able to offtank as well) main pourpose is to DD, GLA is to tank, MRD is superior in both thoose aspects in almost all situations.
And while MRD can always easily slip into a DD role for a PT GLA can't realy perfom well as any other role then the tank.

Having both tried with STR builds and using the 5% block trait, they have done nothing for having any block procs on Ifrit.

For us to have to wait for 1.21 and the job system where GLA gets PLD to get a fix is imo unreasonable, playing an underperfoming class isnt fun at all.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

To tank effectively on MRD you still require many of the GLD skill, at least if you wana do a good job.

I see no reason to parry when you have a shield, that being said they do need to increase either the frequency of how often gladiators block (give them a trait that increases block rating) or the percentage they mitigate when they do block (give them a skill that increases the amount of mitigation done when blocking)

Maybe they have something like this planned for Paladin, I can't see them adding a job specifically designed for tanking and not have skills in place to make them good at it, isn't the MRD job going to be DD ?

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Yeah, I know I need skills from both to truly be the most effective at either. And to be 100% honest, the role of tanking is more important to me than the class I use to tank. But it really doesn't make sense at all for the lowest damage melee class that has a shield and the most health and defense to not be the most desired and effective tank. To me that is an issue that should be addressed either by making GLA a more desirable tanking class, or increasing their damage output so they can fill other roles satisfactorily.

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Originally Posted by Choyi

Having both tried with STR builds and using the 5% block trait, they have done nothing for having any block procs on Ifrit.

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and you've tried adding upper tier STR materia to all possible gear? I haven't fought Ifrit yet, fyi.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

and you've tried adding upper tier STR materia to all possible gear? I haven't fought Ifrit yet, fyi.

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As far as Ifrit goes block rate is not really relevant because you can only block his single-target regular attacks. He switches to unblockable cleaves as his regular attack early on and only goes back to single-target while Infernal Nails are spawned for the 1 minute prior to Hellfire. You're far better off using Foresight and Diversion to mitigate him when he uses the single-targets and not waste your action points/trait slots/damage on it.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

and you've tried adding upper tier STR materia to all possible gear? I haven't fought Ifrit yet, fyi.

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I don't know how much STR it would take but I've tried out different gear setups with STR materia attached where it was possible (I have been using cheap STR materia III and low tier IV tho but the difference is like 15-18 STR total) I've noticed absolotely 0 blocks happening on Ifrit, blocking on beastmen bosses etc all seesm to funtcion as it should (shield skills not as good as they where pre 1.19 but at least they do proc).

After noticing how much elss damage I could take on MRD is simply gave up on GLA as tank for Ifrit for now, hopefully can get any dev insight if Ifrits attacks are not meant to be blocked (silly since they easily can be parried), if this is a bugg or if theres some unknown conditions for block procs on boss mobs now.

The shileds I've used are Vintage Kite Shield, the Uldah Shield and the new Kite Shields, maybe it could be a problem with thoose specific shield types? Would love to her more about this issue.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

As far as Ifrit goes block rate is not really relevant because you can only block his single-target regular attacks. He switches to unblockable cleaves as his regular attack early on and only goes back to single-target while Infernal Nails are spawned for the 1 minute prior to Hellfire. You're far better off using Foresight and Diversion to mitigate him when he uses the single-targets and not waste your action points/trait slots/damage on it.

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If something is unblockable, wouldn't it follow that it would be extremely difficult to parry as well? Following that logic, I don't see an issue with the mechanics, but rather with strategy. People have beat him, so he's not impossible.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

If something is unblockable, wouldn't it follow that it would be extremely difficult to parry as well? Following that logic, I don't see an issue with the mechanics, but rather with strategy. People have beat him, so he's not impossible.

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I think you're missing the point. Since his only blockable/parryable attacks are few and far between and better handled with guaranteed/nearly guaranteed moves like Foresight/Diversion, there's absolutely no purpose for a shield. GLA is worthless. That's what people are upset about.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I think you're missing the point. Since his only blockable/parryable attacks are few and far between and better handled with guaranteed/nearly guaranteed moves like Foresight/Diversion, there's absolutely no purpose for a shield. GLA is worthless. That's what people are upset about.

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Oh I know, it started with 1.18 when GLA enmity management skills went down the pooper. GLA is somewhat more usefull in regular but difficult open world battles. I'm not saying something shouldn't be done about it, I guess I'm just trying to rationalize it.

I completely agree with this thread, and particularly the last 2 pages. There is a huge ballance issue in regards to MRD vs GLA tanking. Whether it be AoE or Single target tanking I think the common ground for both tanks should be in enmity skills how effective they are, and fast enmity build up. The trade-offs should be dmg vs dmg mitigation. So that we have 2 tanks that both can hold hate well (single or multiple targets), GLA has great dmg mitigation and good dmg, and MRD has good dmg mitigation and great dmg. Something along those lines is what Id like to see. I've said it before, if GLA is gonna be left behind, then SE should just let me know so I can just let it go and focus on MRD tank.

If nothing else PLD better be something special, because if its not, then all we have is the NEW best solo class, that is a decent hybrid DD/healer.........

For the love of God SE, fix this sh*t!!

Trying to find where the good damage in gladiator is. Riot blade may do good damage, but it pacifies you so you cant use any other WS for like 30 secs. Plus every other WS that takes all tp does way more damage without pacifying. Mrd > Gld at damage and AOE tank and pretty much equal at single-target tank. If storm's path wasn't made mrd-exclusive It wouldn't be an issue, but you have to go try storm's path sometime and realize the power of mrd tanking. GLD only has a little more HP going for it, but far less damage and now broken blocking and no parry...