Minor Complaint/Mini Rant

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

Actually, it's no different than how WoW & Rift currently work.

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I never played Rift, but has WoW's tank meta changed significantly? I haven't played since Mists (and never hit cap there), but I don't recall a significant focus on tank DPS when I did play. They did quite a lot of damage (it was pretty easy for tanks to top Recount in dungeons because of how good their AoE was and Vengeance), but they didn't really have to give up a lot to do that. It was part of how they functioned.

As someone who very recently stopped FFXIV due to these focus's on tank DPS and went to go tank in WoW. I can say that I feel very that WoW has tanking & healing in a better spot than FFXIV. It may be due to WoW's age or SE just as very little idea what they want to do with these two roles. The fact that my secondary stats play a large role in my ability to deal damage and protect myself makes me feel that I am not sacrificing tankiness for damage and makes it a much more enjoyable tanking experience. I don't tank to see large numbers. I tank to keep control over a fight.

I actually like the way the meta is setup. It actually makes tanking and gearing interesting and raises the skill ceiling for both tanking and healing.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I actually like the way the meta is setup.

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I think the meta is largely fine (even if it's not particularly to my taste)--the problem is that the meta runs counter to most of the game's design, though. A tank leveling up from 1-60 learns that he's supposed to Need on VIT gear. Tank stances give bonus enmity, so he'll assume that's what he's supposed to use for tanking, and so on. It's natural for him to gather Fending gear when he hits the cap and starts gathering tomestones. Either the game needs to be retooled to work in accordance with the meta or SE needs to change the game so that the meta doesn't work. The first is preferable, as I think options for playstyles are a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I never played Rift, but has WoW's tank meta changed significantly? I haven't played since Mists (and never hit cap there), but I don't recall a significant focus on tank DPS when I did play. They did quite a lot of damage (it was pretty easy for tanks to top Recount in dungeons because of how good their AoE was and Vengeance), but they didn't really have to give up a lot to do that. It was part of how they functioned.

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Which IMO was downright silly. I have zero problems with tanks doing crazy good damage (even beating DPS); but doing that much damage without giving up survivability is just...poopy pants.

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Originally Posted by Sekdatend

As someone who very recently stopped FFXIV due to these focus's on tank DPS and went to go tank in WoW. I can say that I feel very that WoW has tanking & healing in a better spot than FFXIV.

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WoW has it such that tanking is DOWNRIGHT BORING without tanks working to maximize dps. And, btw, if you haven't raided in heroic or higher (WoW's intermediate raid level)...then you have no business even discussing how tanks "top" the dps meters.

Also, if you're tanking solely to CONTROL a fight, you're doing the BARE MINIMUM. Git gud.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I actually like the way the meta is setup. It actually makes tanking and gearing interesting and raises the skill ceiling for both tanking and healing.

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Exactly. WoW tanking in raids was basically, "Stand here, then move. Now move again. Are you bored?! THEN DPS!". In FF14, your tank damage actually matters.

Don't get me wrong. I will dps as much as I can while still being a tank but expecting me to drop my tank stance and be more likely to die to random crits and shit isn't right. I like being able to survive huge hits. I was soooo happy when I survived 2 hyper-compressed plasmas in A1S (without living dead) when my OT died in Deliverance shortly before the tankbuster. That gave me more happiness than any souleater crit. Give me stuff to interrupt. Faust would have been SOOOO fun if instead of it being in that square room we did it in the steam maze. There are ways to raise the skill ceiling without it being "dps or gtfo" either by making more mechanics have something more than, pop this CD ok you're fine or give the tanks fun mechanics in their kits. Procs are fun, I may not get extremely happy when Low Blow procs but its still fun. Not saying it has to be procs but maybe something similar.

Agree with the OP. It saddens me that this is no longer something to laugh at, and instead became the way some people expect tanks to play.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

WoW has it such that tanking is DOWNRIGHT BORING without tanks working to maximize dps. And, btw, if you haven't raided in heroic or higher (WoW's intermediate raid level)...then you have no business even discussing how tanks "top" the dps meters.

Also, if you're tanking solely to CONTROL a fight, you're doing the BARE MINIMUM. Git gud.

Exactly. WoW tanking in raids was basically, "Stand here, then move. Now move again. Are you bored?! THEN DPS!". In FF14, your tank damage actually matters.

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Dropping your tank stance when you are getting murdered by a boss in savage to do more dps does not feel right. Think what you want of it but did not roll a paladin to be sacrificing my mitigation for dps.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Dropping your tank stance when you are getting murdered by a boss in savage to do more dps does not feel right. Think what you want of it but did not roll a paladin to be sacrificing my mitigation for dps.

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If you're actually getting murdered by the boss and dropping tank stance, you have more issues than "DO MOAR DEEPS". Part of tanking is knowing/planning when to do certain things, including (but hardly limited to) changing stances or using CDs.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If you're actually getting murdered by the boss and dropping tank stance, you have more issues than "DO MOAR DEEPS". Part of tanking is knowing/planning when to do certain things, including (but hardly limited to) changing stances or using CDs.

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I am progressing as paladin through A4S, of course i have issues.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

I am progressing as paladin through A4S, of course i have issues.

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If you actually are in A4S, then you should be able to handle things like that already.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If you actually are in A4S, then you should be able to handle things like that already.

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I am not talking about handling it. I can handle many a thing. Im saying it feels wrong to be REQUIRED to abandon your tank stance while you are actually tanking.
I did it while tanking phoenix, mostly on a dare, to get 3 bennus. It was not required to complete a fight, i did it because i was interested if i can do it. But now you are required to do it to pass some of the dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

If you're actually getting murdered by the boss and dropping tank stance, you have more issues than "DO MOAR DEEPS". Part of tanking is knowing/planning when to do certain things, including (but hardly limited to) changing stances or using CDs.

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Doing your rotation and popping your cooldowns properly should be enough for tanks at a given ilvl just like it is enough for DPS at a given ilvl. What I believe people in this thread are asking for is for encounters to be designed with tanks wearing tank gear in mind, not tanks wearing dps gear. There's some work but honestly NO PLAYER SKILL involved in number crunching and maximizing stats. The fact that they are designing raids knowing full well that tanks are not using tank gear is straight-up unbalancing the game. There's literally no reason for it. Just design the content to be clearable with jobs designed to be wearing gear they are designed to wear.

People have this idiotic mentality that wearing STR gear or pentamelds somehow makes them smarter more informed or even more skilled players. Everyone believes that that is straight-up the right way to play, and its not even their fault, its a fault, and a huge one, of the design. Why even have tank accessories if the hardest content in the game is not clearable outside of a huge left-side gear gate with them? Why even waste the programming code? They HAVE to know that this is what's happening and what everyone in the raiding community no matter how casual is looking to for inspiration and guidance on how to play their job. They've made it the "right" way to play. And its dissatisfying to people that want to play tanking jobs. What the current meta caters to is people that want to play DPS, but at the same time, they get to hold aggro and take the hits, which as you might imagine, is a huge rush. So essentially one job type is enjoying the perks of two, but really, its about DPS.

And what people that want to play a TANK (a TANK TANK) want is not to do crap DPS, but they want their itemization and encounter design to allow them to favor their actual tanking primary and secondary stats, whilst having the DPS ceiling for such gear be adequate, given optimal performance on their part, to clear the hardest content in the game. There's literally no reason for a tank that knows his/her optimal DPS GCD and offensive cooldown rotation like the back of their hand and who performs consistently at the ceiling of the job's design to be gated from clearing the game's hardest content by whether or not they are wearing the accessories of another job.

Imagine if the tables were turned and game was designed with considerably more raidwide damage (think T13, but worse), and DPS jobs had to consistently sacrifice their primary and secondary stats for excess VIT, etc. just to get through fights, and that was considered the "proper" way to play the job? What about the people that JUST want to DPS and don't want to have to achieve the survivability of tanks beyond what is normally asked of non-tanks (not standing in fire, dodging AoEs, etc.)?

Here's a brain teaser:

What would people do if suddenly accessories were made job-specific and crafted accessories were designed to no longer be outperforming gear ***60*** ilvls higher given melds?

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Doing your rotation and popping your cooldowns properly should be enough for tanks at a given ilvl just like it is enough for DPS at a given ilvl. What I believe people in this thread are asking for is for encounters to be designed with tanks wearing tank gear in mind, not tanks wearing dps gear. There's some work but honestly NO PLAYER SKILL involved in number crunching and maximizing stats. The fact that they are designing raids knowing full well that tanks are not using tank gear is straight-up unbalancing the game. There's literally no reason for it. Just design the content to be clearable with jobs designed to be wearing gear they are designed to wear.

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You make it sound so easy!

#rippleeffectisntreal

Actually to solve the problem there is a way, and a strange one at that: Bringing back HP-percentage based healing! That would make a VIT tank much easier to heal in healers' PoV, all the while not breaking the DPS-oriented fight as the healers now will be able to do more DPS on behalf of the tanks.

But of course, it's just my opinion and will most likely be overlooked by Square Enix. They still haven't even fixed PLD's endgame situation.....