Tank adjustments we can agree on?

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

You haven't even picked up awareness yet from PLD, or so much as unlocked DRK. No wonder you think Warrior needs even more buffs: Its practically the only thing you've ever played.you have never contributed anything of worth to these forums and I doubt that's going to change, ever.

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You checked my page on Lodestone? What are your thoughts on my glamour? I like it!
Sorry I haven't leveled pld(zzzz) or Drk(where do I unlock this??) because I was had the Foresight(snicker) to level the damn best Tank right off of launch and had never looked back. Case in point, I can't even stay awake long enough to level Pld 2 more levels for a cross class I haven't needed yet. Did I mention you're very mean.

#DarkWarriordin <3Phoenicia

EVERYBODY STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING

IGNORE THE TROLL

READ THIS:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...xander_savage/

CURRENT TOP POST ON REDDIT

IT IS GOOD ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY THE BLOCK CAPS

gonna lay this down real nice and smooth for everyone.

PLD:

Change both oaths to have 0 cost and make sword oath oGCD keep shield oath GCD

Clemency make oGCD instant cast increase CD to 90 seconds due to the higher heal potency and target-able nature of the skill.

shield swipe change potency to to 190-200 and force the next move in the combo. so if you use it after fast blade it forces rage, goring, and RA into combo mode.

remove divine veils activation req and make it instant cast.

give riot blade a conditional based upon tank stance, so that when in Shield Oath it restores MP and when in Sword Oath it restores TP this give paladin TP stability in the OT role.

give flash a ~20% chance to proc CoS off CD

i only have PLD at 55 but this seems to address the issues that most PLD's are having at 60

WAR:

You are fine be quite

I have warrior at 60 and have taken it into savage its perfectly fine where it is.

DRK:

change Dark Dance so that when dark arts'd it has a 50% chance on parry to restore 60TP similar to blood weapon but for TP this means that DRK has a TP fix in both MT and OT roles.

Remove the MP cost of Grit but keep it on the GCD

i never did understand why changing PLD oath would cost mana

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

EVERYBODY STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING

IGNORE THE TROLL

READ THIS:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...xander_savage/

CURRENT TOP POST ON REDDIT

IT IS GOOD ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY THE BLOCK CAPS

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Name calling smh I read the write up and the top post. What are you confirming here?

It's a much better summary and consideration of balance as a whole than we have. Mainly because it gets everything out uninterrupted.

You are trolling and you know it.

Food for thought:

Given that blocking and parry are different things, and therefore do not have to act identically, why can't shields just natively block magic.

That takes one of PLDs most glaring flaws and brings it to just about the right spot straight away.

Only DPS and utility are underpowered at that point.

This and a 2-2.5 min shadow wall (maybe 3 min veng or thrill) should basically be at least buster mitigation sorted across the board.

Ya, I didn't quite understand why they made this decision. Does a fireball go right through a shield? :mad:

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

READ THIS:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...xander_savage/

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I thought this was a pretty good and thoughtful analysis. Thanks for the link.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

Ya, I didn't quite understand why they made this decision. Does a fireball go right through a shield? :mad:

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Magical influenced Spears do.

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Originally Posted by Kaizer

Ya, I didn't quite understand why they made this decision. Does a fireball go right through a shield? :mad:

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Well, you can block Twintania's Fireball, so no. Missiles do though - sometimes. Also dragon breath.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

You are trolling and you know it.

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#supersaiyansigh read the first page dude, I came to this thread with the best intentions, and immediately my words got yanked into a rant post because I actually prefer the current FFXIV tank setup compared to some wishes to homogenize the damage across all 3. Like most threads here, they're good posts until the whiners jump in. If my superb sense of hilumour comes off as such, Im out.

#DarkWarriordin <3Phoenicia

UTILITY:
Goring Blade
Additionally increases chance to critical strike against the foe by 10% for 24s as it deals damage.
(This buff means the entire alliance has increased critical hit chance against said foe.)

AOE THREAT:
Shield Lob
Shield lob now will hit up to five targets near the first target and bounce between the targets randomly until it hits up to five times in 10y.
Potency decreased to 100.

AOE DAMAGE
Circle of Scorn
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 40.
25 second cool-down.


Paladin fixed.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

UTILITY:
Goring Blade
Additionally increases chance to critical strike against the foe by 10% for 24s as it deals damage.
(This buff means the entire alliance has increased critical hit chance against said foe.)

AOE THREAT:
Shield Lob
Shield lob now will hit up to five targets near the first target and bounce between the targets randomly until it hits up to five times in 10y.
Potency decreased to 100.

AOE DAMAGE
Circle of Scorn
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 40.
25 second cool-down.


Paladin fixed.

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those are all stupidly OP please stop

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well, you can block Twintania's Fireball, so no. Missiles do though - sometimes. Also dragon breath.

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Twintania's Fireball is classified as Physical, though most similar attacks are classified as Magical these days. Twintania's kind of a unique snowflake in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

UTILITY:
Goring Blade
Additionally increases chance to critical strike against the foe by 10% for 24s as it deals damage.
(This buff means the entire alliance has increased critical hit chance against said foe.)

AOE THREAT:
Shield Lob
Shield lob now will hit up to five targets near the first target and bounce between the targets randomly until it hits up to five times in 10y.
Potency decreased to 100.

AOE DAMAGE
Circle of Scorn
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200 to all nearby enemies.
Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 40.
25 second cool-down.


Paladin fixed.

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What possessed you to think any of these changes were even remotely balanced?
On your proposed Goring Blade:
How is increased crit chance with 100% uptime ok?
Not even actual DPS classes get an ability like that.

Shield Lob:
What is PLD going to do when it only wants to grab 1 enemy now?
A better way to improve PLD's AOE threat would be flash getting damage and slightly increased threat.
As it is, flash does 500 potency of threat and cannot crit, nor is it effected by FoF, compared to the other tanks' 600 potency AOE aggro grabbers that do damage.

Circle of Scorn:
Why does PLD need another high (440) potency DOT?
You have Goring Blade's DOT already.

tl;dr
No. Just no.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well, you can block Twintania's Fireball, so no. Missiles do though - sometimes. Also dragon breath.

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So basically at the whim of the devs. Kind of like mobs you can sleep, stun, pacify, etc. I like consistency...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

UTILITY:
Goring Blade
Additionally increases chance to critical strike against the foe by 10% for 24s as it deals damage.
(This buff means the entire alliance has increased critical hit chance against said foe.)

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This is essentially a party wide 5% damage buff. If you don't see how this is a terribly unbalanced (and overpowered) ability, I will give you a clue. Paladins would become even more "mandatory" than Warriors are now. Groups would not be dropping Warriors for Paladins either. DRKs would be the odd tank out.

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

snip

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-healing-buffs

As somebody pointed out, this doesn't mean it's a bug, but it seems most likely that this is an unintended consequence of the last minute changes to Lustrate and Tetragrammaton and that they just can't be bothered to fix it unless it's a real problem. Consider that Scholar's main AoE heal (Indomitably) is not buffed by Mantra, Fey Illumination, or Dissipation. Clearly something is not working correctly.

If you really feel that WAR is overpowered on the defensive side of things (I personally do not. As a Paladin I was able to grab 4-5 balls, self-heal through a hydrothermic missile with both healers dead, then tank a strafe doll with 6 stacks with only the freshly raised Scholar through another hydrothermic missle in A4 Savage, which I would be interested to see a Warrior do), it would be better to increase the cooldown on Raw Intuition (I agree, there's no comparing Raw Intuition and Dark Dance. It's a bad joke really) and/or remove the extra Wrath stacks granted by RI and perhaps some other skills (like Vengeance or Thrill) than to leave instant heals broken. If Equilibrium is a problem, decreasing its potency by 15% would leave it the same after Defiance. If Second Wind is a problem (for example, Mantra+Second Wind on Monk) it really should be possible to differentiate them considering one scales off attack power and the other off of magic damage already.

Ty source, lol at the fact they have to post computer specs. Just because it is investigated doesn't mean it is a bug though it is a balance concern. Absolute basic computing.

Being able to drop a lot of cooldowns and throw out some cures to prolong what is already a wipe isn't exactly a strength when having another class to meet a dps check or kill an extra damage source wouldn't even have you in the situation to begin with. Yes PLD can drop all their cooldowns back to back to great effect like way back in under geared T4 buffed and double dreads, but WAR can do similarly to a mildly lesser effect without being absolutely screwed, bar cover and heals. My argument is not that cooldowns are too powerful on WAR it is that they are too frequent. A relic from the fact that one of them used to be offensive, not defensive.

This does highlight another problem with the base PLD philosophy though, the idea that PLD makes fights more forgiving when most of the actual mechanics either take out your healers/dps upon failure, or wipe the entire party on failure, or are DPS checks. PLD does very little to actually aid this.

Few scenarios really require many cooldowns to be used back to back, it's 1 hit 1 CD. So the most important thing is having it back up again.

Also Shadow Wall vs Vengance really really bugs me. Even if it is considered part of a greater toolkit having a better ability on a 1 min less cooldown just feels wrong.

Final wave in A2S maybe but outside of that its buster buster buster, magic magic magic.

Which is quite sad considering the creativity seen in elsewhere in the game.

It's not necessarily a wipe though, we were able to get everybody back up and finish that leg (of course we did wipe after that). Clemency is actually quite good at preventing wipes by letting one healer hard-cast raise while I heal. This is why I would rather they not replace the current Clemency with an oGCD skill with a cooldown like Equilibrium.

Shadow Wall is really thoughtless in its design. It's the duration and cooldown of Sentinel (which is 33% stronger of a cooldown) with the strength of Vengeance (which is 1.5x the duration with .66x the cooldown and gives you 20% of an Inner Beast), which I suppose is fine as long as the only damage you ever take is magic. The devs really screwed up by trying to specialize one of the tanks for magic damage, imo.

Can we seriously not even agree on at least points 2-4? They seem like design errors to me.

1. Native tank spells should have their cast times and recast times based on Skill Speed, not Spell Speed.
2. Dark Knight should have a means of managing TP without dropping Grit other than spamming Unmend.
3. Shield Swipe procs should not be a DPS loss.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Can we seriously not even agree on at least points 2-4? They seem like design errors to me.

1. Native tank spells should have their cast times and recast times based on Skill Speed, not Spell Speed.
2. Dark Knight should have a means of managing TP without dropping Grit other than spamming Unmend.
3. Shield Swipe procs should not be a DPS loss.

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The primary function of shield swipe is not for dps anymore it's just for tp management if that wasn't the case they would have upped the potency at launch when they cut riot blade tp cost since it's now part of there main rotation. The tank spellcasting I agree with but the tp issues I don't fully agree with there are very few current fights that really starve either darkknight or paladin from a MT perspective minus A4. Which a nin with goad could fix just fine. If we have more fights like A4 I'd agree however.

However I do think that paladins should be able to block Magic based attacks to solidify it's role as the mitigation tank. Only real issue I feel with the class. It has lowest dps so it's mitigation should be higher since that's it's thing. Not on par dps wise. was never on par with warrior dps anyway even in 2.x. it's supposed to be a mitigation tank any buff it gets should be higher mitigation imo that's what made it a great progression main tank very high easy to use mitigation was never about its dps.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Nobody has said DRK doesn't need buffs, its a poorly designed tank that only benefits because the current meta caters to it. The fact is that PLD is garbage and some of its skills, such as Clemency and Shield Swipe are flat out completely useless.

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Paladin garbage?
Shield swipe useless?

What??

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

The primary function of shield swipe is not for dps anymore it's just for tp management [...] the tp issues I don't fully agree with there are very few current fights that really starve either darkknight or paladin from a MT perspective minus A4.

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The problem with Shield Swipe is that it's almost a 20% potency loss over just doing your combo unless your skill speed is such that you reliably gain a tick of Goring Blade by using it (if you clip Goring Blade with a full 3 seconds, it's exactly neutral to use, but is still a DPS loss if you use it with Fight or Flight so you can use it only 1-2 times a minute). The potency gained/TP is so minimal compared to Goring Blade (~0.35 potency/TP) you might as well hope somebody will give you TP and go all out, then set a macro that does the Goring Blade combo every 24 seconds and AFK if you run out of TP instead of using your Shield Swipe procs.

Besides, a proc should be a DPS increase in my opinion. One of the most interesting things on Paladin in 2.x was timing Bulwark with FoF and potion for a small DPS gain. If it's DPS neutral it has no use in any fight with breaks or if you have a Ninja, which shouldn't be the case. I understand the thought that it helps with hate, but once you've established hate that doesn't really have a point to it either.

As for TP, A3 Savage currently TP starves me on Paladin and I'm sure DRK that use Grit would have this problem (though Grit's not necessary for that fight). Anyway, the TP issue is a fundamental flaw in the job that will become a problem if there's ever a fight that hits hard with 3 minutes of sustained uptime. Using Unmend is a potency gain/MP over saving MP for Souleater (especially factoring procs), but a poor solution to TP management overall.

Like I said before Pld in my eyes is about pure mitigation. As long as it has close dps it's fine. Could shield swipe be changed sure but purely for tp consumption while remaining dps nutral. If pld gets its dps buffed it should have nothing upping it's mitigation like shorter clemency casts. In physical heavy fights it will already out mitigate a dark knight which will make them useless in said progression if buffed. Or you could simply say screw tank originality and make them all parse the same with the same rotation and cd's and call it a day. Warrior has highest dps and skill gap. Dark is inbetween. While pld is the easiest hands down. If you buff pld dps it needs something to make it difficult to play. All these buffs will ruin any chance dark has when magic damage isn't heavy. So buff pld mitigation in magic fights so it mitigates the most and keep its dps at the bottom or buff it's dps and Nerf it's mitigation to be mostly physical. Only 1 cd is unique to drk for magic fights.

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

All these buffs will ruin any chance dark has when magic damage isn't heavy. So buff pld mitigation in magic fights so it mitigates the most and keep its dps at the bottom or buff it's dps and Nerf it's mitigation to be mostly physical. Only 1 cd is unique to drk for magic fights.

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Yep, the current Meta is Magic heavy. What if next Meta is Physical Heavy?

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Nobody has said DRK doesn't need buffs, its a poorly designed tank that only benefits because the current meta caters to it. The fact is that PLD is garbage and some of its skills, such as Clemency and Shield Swipe are flat out completely useless.

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Though I'm speaking only for normal mode Alex here, I have saved myself or others way too many times with Clemency to find it useless, and I do like having 200 TP still while the DRK has none, complements of Shield Swipe spamming.

But I will agree that in Savage-level content, anything that you have that another job could do stronger, faster, and with more control will almost always be waste. Running out of TP later, if the whole raid is getting Paeon or Goad will be ready for you before you starve, is a non-benefit.

But what would it take to save those two moves, really? Clemency would likely have to be usable as an actual emergency heal even when under cutting-edge content attacks, in other words, to be to some extent interrupt-immune, and to have enough speed to fulfill its expected function. This could be done via a Paladin trait, an attachment to Shield Oath, attachments to both Oaths with divergent purpose, an attachment to Tempered Will, an attachment to Awareness, an attachment to Bulwark, an attachment to an already-revised Shield Swipe or Shield Bash, or an attachment to Clemency itself. (Or just about anything else.)

If we look at its value outside of self-healing, however, it would need not only to be able to save the Paladin himself, but also his emergency heal target. Random example: if Clemency immediately provided a rapidly-increasing temporary increase to maximum health alongside temporary healing as the cast progresses. If the cast fails or is canceled, the target receives nothing. While in progress, the target's health bar and health percentage show little change as not to be distracting. On completion, it merely looks like the heal completed and nothing really happened in between. But, it now has the ability to keep the target or oneself from dying within, say, a half-second of the heal actually going off. Moreover, this temporary max health increase makes the PLD better immune to interruption, though only slightly. There would need to be a bit more. The only issue is then, should that interruption immunity be limited by extent or by coverage - does it better belong with a CD like Awareness, Bulwark, or Tempered Will, or does it better belong to a natural 40% increase to the damage required to interrupt your casts while in Shield Oath (which still cannot allow you to save yourself or others during a tank buster or from the AA finishing blow shortly after it)?

Now, Shield Swipe. Is it currently necessary for PLD to be competitive? Would changes to it be necessary to make PLD competitive (before and after whatever changes are made to Clemency)? Should these changes involve any or all among 1) making it mesh better with Goring Blade, 2) improving its potency directly, 3) improving its relative potency in another manner, 4) improving its potency conditionally (e.g. during Bulwark), 5) improving its general ease of use, 6) etc.? Additionally, 7) should it be more 'fun', and would changes in that regard best come from changes to Shield Swipe itself, or from, say, the entire 'Shield' Set of abilities?

What ideas do you all actually have for these two abilities?

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Personally, I'd just like for PLD revisions to start by revision to the two above, but also by reducing the dps loss from maintaining or 'over'-using Rage of Halone as OT and MT respectively, likely by increasing its potency to 280, or adding an affect to it that will in some way improve damage after use, less than just using another RA, but with less gap than it currently has. At that point, the majority of its new abilities should feel "finished". RA won't feel annoying in that you are often forced to use RoH when you do not need StrDown just for its threat, Clemency won't feel stunted, and Shield Swipe won't feel like it's at best stunting your use of other, better abilities, and should consequently help grant a tiny bit more identity to the job. That all won't improve the job's attractiveness to more casual players who already find it dull, but it should at least make it feel like a polished raid candidate.

And, more of a pipedream, I'd like to see Spell Speed and Skill Speed combined into Speed, for TP refresh speed to scale with Speed (giving 50 TP per GCD instead of 60 per 3.0s), and for Speed to affect AA and oGCD damage similarly to Det and Crit, though Det and Crit may then be scaled up slightly to retain equal stat weight. Having the "complexity" of an optimal stat does not lead to increased choices. At best, it only makes the search for your next best piece of gear a tiny bit more pressured and mechanical.
For the same reasons of future-proofing I also hope that DRK eventually gains some means of managing TP without Unmend spam, but at that point the Shield Swipe TP advantage would be even less unique, and likely the only means of TP management among tanks that costs that much dps, unless changed. If PLD support-heals ever become worth using, that in itself should aid significantly in TP management, and just as DRK should not only have means of TP-management outside of Grit, PLD should not only have means of TP-management while MTing - though the comparison may fit their archetypes...
Edit: And I'd like to see Vitality increase Attack Power-based self-healing, roughly equally to Strength (applying both to direct heals like Clemency and boosting the healing done from damage as in Inner Beast), and Defiance and Convalescence to affect Ability healing, both one's own, like Clemency's self-healing and outside sources like Lustrate.

Honestly, the main issue for me right now is fending gear. The fact that tanks are essentially required to ditch their "job specific" accessories in order to meet a dps check is stupid to me. With the gear we have now, stacking VIT becomes useless since the left side gear already has enough. I would personally like to see some kind of damage reduction or healing buff added to the gear (however small it may be), or just adding some STR to it (ie 10-20 STR per 40 VIT or so).

As for specific jobs, I would say Warrior is in a great place right now. DRK is still a bit weird (some abilities don't really make much sense), and PLD could probably use a little bit of love. I think both are still in relatively good places (certainly viable), the main issue again is the fending gear for me. The fact that i150 accessories are better than i210 just bothers me, and I really dislike mixing and matching slaying/fending gear.

I also have to disagree about shield swipe being useless, that being said though, I wish I had more of a reason to hit that button occasionally. =/

'Useless' is a bit of an exaggeration, but Shield Swipe is an incredibly underwhelming ability. Even back in 2.0, when it was almost always worth it, using it basically got you 7 potency/GCD and some TP. Now, you get even less than that and you start to go negative on damage if you use it more than once per cycle. What you end up with is an ability with a rare activation requirement (only DRK and MNK have equivalents) that ends up feeling like crap. It'd be like if Fell Cleave only did 220 potency. It's an increase over Butcher's Block combo and you save TP!

I think the counterattack mechanic of shield swipe should significantly influence how a paladin plays. If not, then at least make it always feel awesome to hit it. There are a bunch of ways to do this, but it's up to the devs to actually realize how absolutely mediocre current swipe is. Also, there are other paladin abilities that are in similar shape.

Well, as always, the frustrating aspect of it is there are so many ways to deal with it but SE is deaf to the problem, blind to its solutions, and mute towards its community. Shield Swipe has been underwhelming since forever and even now, when it's a garbage tier ability, we still get no word from SE.

Seriously, whenever I see the proc light up for shield swipe, I feel more sadness than anything else. I'm sad that there is no joy in blocking since it's just a relabeled parry now. I'm sad that I'm losing DPS trying to conserve TP. I'm sad that I'm bottoming out on TP after ~2 minutes in the first place. And, it's not just shield swipe that is this collection of sadness. Numerous PLD abilities are like this. Every time I try to cast Clemency I'm just sad. I'm sad that the boss just interrupted my cast. I'm sad that for 3 seconds I will be dealing 0 DPS. I'm sad that the WAR just popped Equilibrium for an instant heal. I'm sad that by the time it finishes casting, it's just going to be over healing. I'm sad that... why the hell am I casting this spell?

Is that really an acceptable state for any job? Is it right for a class to be so utterly pathetic to play?

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

It should be possible to parry and block critical damage.

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I can agree with this.

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Rage of Halone should have its potency increased slightly.

The potency penalty for keeping the Rage of Halone debuff up as OT is too high and hate generation could also use a boost now that PLD has 3 combos to juggle. Increasing the potency to 300 would make the potency gap 40 compared to Royal Authority (the same potency a WAR loses by replacing Butcher’s Block with Storm’s Path) so it would be worth thinking about the STR debuff. This change wouldn't increase PLD's max DPS at all, it's about how Halone fits in with the new skills.

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I still say this would mess with tanking at lower levels. If we absolutely have to do this, nerf Halone's baseline enmity modifier and increase the potency (leaving it at about the same place from 26-40), then have Shield Oath give bonus enmity to Halone.

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[B]Grit, Sword Oath, and Shield Oath should not cancel combos.

I think it’s fine that these cost a global cooldown and MP, but having them cancel combos is disadvantageous if you suddenly need to swap in when the MT dies or otherwise suddenly need to tank.

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Considering the course of action when this happens is Swap => Provoke => Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend, this isn't as big a problem as one would think.

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Originally Posted by LeeraSorlan

A better change tho imo is reduce the general cast to 1 or 1.5 seconds. Anything over 2 seconds honestly renders it useless and the high MP cost already means you wont be spamming 1s heals all over.

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Except making it easier to use on yourself takes PLD survivability to levels it should not be. You're making a clear choice to use it, and it has to have an opportunity cost. The ability was clearly added for use while not being the MT or for raid-damage situations.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I still say this would mess with tanking at lower levels [to increase Halone potency...]
Considering the course of action when this happens is Swap => Provoke => Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend, this isn't as big a problem as one would think.
Except making it easier to use on yourself takes PLD survivability to levels it should not be. You're making a clear choice to use it, and it has to have an opportunity cost. The ability was clearly added for use while not being the MT or for raid-damage situations.

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The thing with Halone potency is you don't even get it at the lowest levels (when Flash is actually your greatest hate generator) and Paladin doesn't get Shield Oath until way later than the other tanks get their tank stance (Sword Oath comes first). If anything, it would improve balance in holding hate at lower levels to increase Halone's potency. It would be broken as you say for lvls. 40-54, but at every other level would be an improvement. When you look at BRD and DRK and other jobs that are insanely overpowered low level, it's clear they don't care at all about fine-tuning balance outside of max level anyway and I think that's fine.

Provoke=>Lob is not even close to being enough hate if your DPS are good (Just spamming your Halone). You are right that there are ways to work around this (for example, having a Ninja solves the problem entirely), but it is a disadvantage to the two when OTing.

Reducing Clemency's cast any more than a second (to 2 seconds to match Cure II) is clearly overpowered. I agree with you on that and don't want the skill itself to be changed. I do wish it came with an ability to resist interruptions so that you could use it reliably while MT without having to stack another defensive cooldown (and therefore often making it unnecessary), but I think the skill is very good as it is. The only problem with Clemency is that SE seems to think that's enough in terms of TP management as OT, but it's worth nothing if you don't actually need it.

I think a lot of people are hyping up shield swipe more than they ought to. I've yet to see it actually provide substantial tp management which was the whole purpose behind the ability in the first place. You can argue that pacification has its uses on trash dungeon mobs but even then you're hoping rng aligns the duration of your pacification with the enemies execution of their own skill. Imo pacification so translate into a stun of sorts on a separate timer as it currently is, or maybe an additional 5% mitigation for a few seconds similar to inner beast for shield swipe procs? Idk taking shots in the dark at this point hoping for SE to acknowledge/provide solutions to the current state of PLD. As for now, I've converted to Warrior in favor of smoother gameplay, higher dps, higher threat generation, and overall quicker runs.

Signing in to commend you on your efforts, agree with your OP, and attempt to put this on the front page for a bit since you've cleared A4S as a Paladin and can offer your honest opinion based on experience.

This looks fun.

ALL HYPOTHETICAL. THESE ARE NOT CHANGES I THINK ARE NEEDED, BUT COULD PERHAPS BALANCE THE TANKS A BIT.

PLD
1. Fight or Flight recast down from 90s to 70s. Boom. DPS issues solved.
2. Divine Veil radius up from 15y to 25y. Recast down from 150s to 120s.
3. Rage of Halone debuff up from 20s to 24s. Potency up from 260 to 280.

toned down from that thread that I know you all just LOVED... :D
WAR
1. Infuriate recast up from 60s to 80s.
2. Unchained recast up from 120s to 150s.
3. Defiance/Deliverance recast up from 10s to 20s.

DRK
1. Dark Dance under Dark Arts adds 20% parry strength in addition to evasion.
2. Reprisal inflicts additional vulnerability up for 3s when used under Dark Arts. (Why? to make PLD+DRK compositions more viable from a raid DPS standpoint, even without a NIN.)
3. Souleater and Power Slash under Dark Arts have 0 TP cost.

Changes that are absolutely unneeded IMO:

PLD
1. Any change to Sword or Shield Oath.
2. Any change to blocking or the use of a shield, or Shield Swipe.
3. Changes to cast times for Stoneskin/Clemency. Learn fights and safe times to use these, they're there.

WAR
1. Any more DPS.
2. Any more mitigation.
3. Any more utility.

DRK
1. Anything to do with MP costs, Grit, or Blood Weapon.
2. Anything to do with taking advantage of proc-on-parry mechanics or rotating Blood Price with stuff that boosts evasion. Git gud and L2DRK.
3. Any more personal (non-raid) DPS.

One random change that I'd like to see on all tanks:
Give 25s Awareness to all tanks. Give PLD recast time reduction or something. Being unable to be critically hit is awesome but 15s for WAR and DRK is nearly useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

PLD
1. Fight or Flight recast down from 90s to 70s. Boom.

1. Dark Dance under Dark Arts adds 20% parry strength
2. Reprisal inflicts additional vulnerability up for 3s when used under Dark Arts.
3. Souleater and Power Slash under Dark Arts have 0 TP cost.

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Yeah, no offense but this is why I wanted to make a thread that doesn't revolve around insane ideas. That's almost 50% uptime on FoF and you could never have anybody but a DRK MT considering every third skill would cost 0 TP and they would get a third of a Trick Attack by MTing.

I do agree WAR should be adjusted, but your adjustments really just nerf their MT DPS and cement them even more into an OT role, which is the last thing we want for WAR. (The easiest and best way to adjust WAR IMO is just to lower their DPS cap to ~5% lower than the other two tanks and fix Defiance so Lustrate isn't crap on WAR. That would piss WAR players off, but it would preserve the WAR play-style more than trying to tweak the buffs and there's less risk of screwing up and making WAR legitimately bad than if you start messing with their mechanics).

I realize this is an unpleasant post, but we want balance, not to run WAR into the ground. I think you just have a vendetta against WAR for some reason:confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Yeah, no offense but this is why I wanted to make a thread that doesn't revolve around insane ideas. That's almost 50% uptime on FoF and you could never have anybody but a DRK MT considering every third skill would cost 0 TP and they would get a third of a Trick Attack by MTing.

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-Excuse me sir, but its not insane, 50% uptime on a 30% damage boost is the same as 100% uptime on a 15% damage boost, which is what DRK has. Then while OTing, PLD gets extra autos, and DRK gets Blood Weapon. DA POWER OF DA MATH. What's insane when you factor in WAR is that WAR only needs Maim and Deliverance (not including Abandon crit stacks) to match those percentages. (-20%+15% for DRK and PLD, -25%+20% for WAR, and then each get (roughly) +5% extra in their OT stance) But it has Berserk, Internal Release, Abandon stacks, its own slashing debuff, a 500 potency skill usable multiple times per minute, and no GCD/resource cost of stance dancing.
-And okay, so zero TP might be a bit much. I actually don't think DRK needs any real TP solution while MTing without dropping Grit. WAR has to switch out of Defiance to use Equilibrium for TP, and Blood Weapon is about a 60TP gain every 40 seconds. Blood Weapon slows our TP consumption considerably, its pretty equaled out, and most good DRKs are getting very skilled at finding 15 seconds out of every 40 where it is safe to drop Grit during raids. But you mentioned TP in your OP so I was really just kinda catering to you. Sorry =/
-And a third of a Trick Attack isn't much more of a raid DPS contribution than a 100% uptime slashing debuff. Its certainly more reasonable than people's constant requests to make Reprisal not a reprisal. But okay, sure, maybe a bit OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

I do agree WAR should be adjusted, but your adjustments really just nerf their MT DPS and cement them even more into an OT role, which is the last thing we want for WAR. (The easiest and best way to adjust WAR IMO is just to lower their DPS cap to ~5% lower than the other two tanks and fix Defiance so Lustrate isn't crap on WAR. That would piss WAR players off, but it would preserve the WAR play-style more than trying to tweak the buffs and there's less risk of screwing up and making WAR legitimately bad than if you start messing with their mechanics).

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If you agree with me then why do you seem so offended? Compared to the nerfs in my other thread (which I admit I totally just pulled out of my ass to see what people would say, because I'm sick of the deluge of buff PLD threads I figured I'd see what people did when you come from the other direction) they were pretty tame. I actually don't think most WARs are that upset about mostly OTing now that they have Deliverance and Fell Cleave. I mean... my fingers may not be completely on the pulse of the people, but uhh... yeah.

And make WAR dps 5% lower than the other tanks? WAT? That's WAY worse than anything I ever suggested. The whole IDEA of WAR is a sick DEEPZ tank! And if you mean 5% lower before all their buffs are taken into account, well, that's what we have already. WAR has the lowest combo potencies of any of the tanks, overall, but a ludicrous amount of DPS buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

I realize this is an unpleasant post, but we want balance, not to run WAR into the ground. I think you just have a vendetta against WAR.

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Way to get personal.

I played WAR as a secondary in 2.x, and raid with one now. I hardly have a vendetta. I'm just reacting to what I've observed, and again, no change I ever suggested would have put the DPS TANK's DPS at FIVE PERCENT BELOW the other two NOT-AS-DPS-TANKS. Even I think that's a bit brutal.