What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Mind bonus? Best burst healing? You should feel threatened about SCH that got Indomitability and Emergency tactics.

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Emergency Tactics isn't taking anything from me, it swaps shield for healing power, Indomitability also isn't taking anything from me as it uses Aetherflow and Scholar needed something more reliable than Succor. I do not feel threatened, I feel like my class is being forgotten and transformed into something that, like you said, only have a mind bonus to offer now.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Because I pay as much (really, even more because I have 8 retainers) as you to play this game. I don't really care how many jobs you have at 60, our opinions have the same weight when it comes to game design. If you're okay with seeing your class lose Proshell, Graniteskin and having the only thing that made it stand up taken away (raw-healing power), I am not.

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BUT LOSING YOUR TRAITS HAVE ABSOLUTELLY NOTHING TO DO WITH AST!
You KNEW ast would be a hybrid from the start and i saw no complains, when AST was almost useless i saw no complains, and now that it can be a competitive healer you start whining?
Grow up.

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

BUT LOSING YOUR TRAITS HAVE ABSOLUTELLY NOTHING TO DO WITH AST!
You KNEW ast would be a hybrid from the start and i saw no complains, when AST was almost useless i saw no complains, and now that it can be a competitive healer you start whining?
Grow up.

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I'm all for it being a competitive healer, but in his own, unique way. I can't really believe you think the best way to balance AST was getting it potency increase, instead of buffing, reworking or increasing its uniqueness and cards enough to make a difference and be a viable exchange for its weaker heals.

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

BUT LOSING YOUR TRAITS HAVE ABSOLUTELLY NOTHING TO DO WITH AST!
You KNEW ast would be a hybrid from the start and i saw no complains, when AST was almost useless i saw no complains, and now that it can be a competitive healer you start whining?
Grow up.

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When the Expansion hit WHM's weren't worried about AST because WHM could still say "We still have the most Powerful Raw Healing Numbers". With this latest AST buff, almost EVERY SINGLE HEALING SPELL is matched number for number with WHM. The exact same potency across the board! ITS A COPY PASTE! (With the exception of the Paltry 10 measly ass potency in regen and medica 2). They even duplicated our Divine Seal and tacked it onto an AST skill that was already really good. Raw Healing Power is no longer a flag that belongs to WHM, the class is generic now and has nothing special to call its own.

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Meanwhile AST has the most extensive source of party buffs in the game.

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Why do people seem to forget that cards are random and more often than not you'll draw a card that you don't actually need?

This has been discussed already, but an AST with perfect luck provides a raid dps increase of about 2%. Thus "No worries for the AST though who can boost party DPS to massive levels" is false. Of course this 2% dps increase will happen assuming you only use expanded balances, so you'll have to forget about "the most extensive source of party buffs in the game" (seriously, lol at this). It also seems that you don't know how lightspeed works, or what the difference between instant cast and reduced general cooldown is. Yet another thread based on completely false premises.

These threads are so dumb. I have all 3 healers at 60 and have raided extensively with them all, as well as raided with the new ast all day yesterday. I promise you, ast is still the weakest of the three, and the whm/sch combo in raids is still king.

The only difference is now ast isn't a complete joke. In fact, it's only slightly weaker than the other two. Granted, it's much more comparable to whm than sch, but whm is still better and still has more tools/reasons to bring to a raid. I'd go as far as saying (and have said) ast is actually still in need of some buffs. Not to healing of course, but to the card system as a whole.

Anyway, stop being acting like the sky is falling just because whm/sch aren't OP as hell in comparison to ast now. You're all acting like little children who had two cookies while their little brother had one, and are now trying cause mommy finally gave him a second cookie.

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

BUT LOSING YOUR TRAITS HAVE ABSOLUTELLY NOTHING TO DO WITH AST!
You KNEW ast would be a hybrid from the start and i saw no complains, when AST was almost useless i saw no complains, and now that it can be a competitive healer you start whining?
Grow up.

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The title of the thread was in fact 'What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore'. This is, in part, due to the fact that square created a hybrid class that was too weak to perform instead of a unique healer. The rng on the cards (as has been mentioned several times here) was not enough to make them equal to the other healers which should have been obvious from the start considering the nature of that sort of design. As a result they had three options: buff the unique abilities of the AST and make the cards more viable, buff their WHM attributes or buff their SCH attributes. The first option would have further made a distinction between a buffing healer, a pure healer and a mitigation/dps healer. The other two options required making the AST's very similar to one of the other classes, thereby stepping on toes. No they were not the reason we lost Proshell and Graniteskin. But pair that with them becoming mini WHM's and we have lost quite a bit of what made us...well us. Hence the point of this thread. This is, I think, the last straw and not the first but a straw nonetheless.

I don't think power wise we are really shouldered out its just they now offer no really unique 'gimmick' of their own like SCH and AST since its a pretty close call on raw healing power and we don't have fairies or cards or any of that. How is this fixed? I have not a clue. Buffing AST cards and reworking that would have helped to keep us all different but what is done is done. On a personal level I just hope they go in another direction in the future. I don't want to see three competitive healers who are just carbon copies of each other in different robes in order to achieve balance. I'd like to have multiple styles of healing that are different, which SCH and WHM are. The line between WHM and AST is too thin now for my liking.

I've played the "pure healer" class in several MMOs over the years, and...well, this is normal. This might disappoint you, but this is what I've learned:

Pure healer, without careful balancing, isn't an identity that can last with a lot of clarity when you have multiple healing classes. Not long-term. Not if you want to keep all of your classes balanced and viable. Want to have the highest healing throughput? Great! Except now you can't create a fight that requires your level of throughput, because now you've created a fight where your class is required, and that is a no-no in a game with a large focus on class balance. You need to balance content in a way that all of the healers are viable, which means that your advantage from extra powerful heals becomes overkill. In that sense, stronger heals isn't really an advantage.

Then comes the inevitable buffing class, and the inevitable wacky mechanics class, and so on and so forth. They need identities, because you're already the Pure Healer (tm). So their heals are scaled to an acceptable level for content, and they get extra stuff on the side.

But wait! That's unfair! They have a real advantage, while you have that fake strong heals advantage that isn't really an advantage for balance reasons!

I've seen this scenario several times now. It's a catch-22 that Tank/Healer/DPS MMOs seem to have. You want to have your purist class surrounded by classes with their own quirks, but the community will cry foul if that purist is actually better at their core mechanic than the other classes. So the purist gets nerfed. And diluted. And their skills get copied. And their territory loses ground. And the community tells the purists to stop complaining because they're still "overpowered", because they've still got that slight advantage in the basic function of their class.

This fight is a song that never ends, my friends.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Emergency Tactics isn't taking anything from me, it swaps shield for healing power, Indomitability also isn't taking anything from me as it uses Aetherflow and Scholar needed something more reliable than Succor. I do not feel threatened, I feel like my class is being forgotten and transformed into something that, like you said, only have a mind bonus to offer now.

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SCH has infinite MP, better DPS (unafected by acc), many MANY tools compared to both WHM and AST
and you only complain about AST.
The only reliable thing AST has
Benefic 1 and 2 and aspected. (and some random procs)
Helios and aspected helios.
ED on a 40 second CD
Now they have Synastry with a longer CD and a Lower heal boost
CU still not that useful.
CO is a joke
Cards still are unreliable since all of them are completely random
WHM has:
Cure 1,2, freecure proc
Medica 1,2 20% chance Medica will cost HALF mp
Assize, PoM, Divine seal, Benediction, Regen, Tetragramaton.
SoS and assize for MP
Asylum which is "place and forget"
Cure 3
stoneskin 2
without mention the great amount of DPS a WHM can provide
SCH has
physic + free embrace (400pot + 300pot)
rouse which increases the fairy heals
Whispering Dawn (strongest AOE regen in game) and if you use Rouse (+40%) and Fey ill (+20%) well...
Fey covenant, fey illumination
selene- Fey wind, Fey caress (which in my opinion could be a WHM spell)
ET, Lustrate, infinite MP, indom, DT, Energy drain for EVEN MORE mp, sacred soil, E4E, supervirus, without mentioning the great DPS unafected by acc.
you SHOULD feel threatened by SCH and definitely not by AST.
Stop the drama.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

snip

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Excellently put =/ WHM has no identity now

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

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Again: my problem isn't and will never be a job having a "better and different something" than me. My problem is a job having what I have. I can't see where I said ANYTHING about being threatened by some class, I feel threatened by the lack of imagination from SQEX part. Instead of reworking the card system, reworking the playstyle and making the original class design work well, SQEX just changed potency and durations, basically. If I played AST, I would be as mad as I am now with my WHM because I'd never want to play a mimicked conjurer with restraints.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Again: my problem isn't and will never be a job having a "better and different something" than me. My problem is a job having what I have. I can't see where I said ANYTHING about being threatened by some class, I feel threatened by the lack of imagination from SQEX part. Instead of reworking the card system, reworking the playstyle and making the original class design work well, SQEX just changed potency and durations, basically. If I played AST, I would be as mad as I am now with my WHM because I'd never want to play a mimicked conjurer with restraints.

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As i said it is not the same, WHM is way safer than AST in raids. The amount of CDs whm have is insane next to AST.
you're being too dramatic
sure AST could have been unique? SURE that would be awesome, but it isn't and it seems like it will never be, so stop whining about it.
That's why i love my server people play with the jobs that they love and have fun while playing it, and don't waste time discussing about this useless stuff

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I'm all for it being a competitive healer, but in his own, unique way. I can't really believe you think the best way to balance AST was getting it potency increase, instead of buffing, reworking or increasing its uniqueness and cards enough to make a difference and be a viable exchange for its weaker heals.

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your right I mean as a raid leader why would I want one healer to only be able to do the job of HEALING on par with the other healers. We are healers first and foremost and are there to do one thing first make sure to put band-aids on the derps and keep the tanks alive and the biggest issue was not being able to cover the durps and keep the tanks going strong enough to not be able to play catch up and oh crud with mana at the end. When you need an Ewer card because someone durped to recover that mp back you can bet it will not be the one your going to get.

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Originally Posted by Lexie

your right I mean as a raid leader why would I want one healer to only be able to do the job of HEALING on par with the other healers. We are healers first and foremost and are there to do one thing first make sure to put band-aids on the derps and keep the tanks alive and the biggest issue was not being able to cover the durps and keep the tanks going strong enough to not be able to play catch up and oh crud with mana at the end. When you need an Ewer card because someone durped to recover that mp back you can bet it will not be the one your going to get.

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Yes, I don't take your reason. Your card system is still broken. C'mon, even a Trait that enhances the rate of drawing Ewer at XX% MP would be good, but instead SE overlooked a flawed job design and said "let's just increase some potencies and durations and make them closer to WHMs since they're a safer healer". Do you see my problem?

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Originally Posted by Muahbec

As i said it is not the same, WHM is way safer than AST in raids. The amount of CDs whm have is insane next to AST.
you're being too dramatic
sure AST could have been unique? SURE that would be awesome, but it isn't and it seems like it will never be, so stop whining about it.
That's why i love my server people play with the jobs that they love and have fun while playing it, and don't waste time discussing about this useless stuff

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I'm only discussing here because I'm working now, the little time I get at home I spend playing my class and doing things I like in the game. I'm not that monster you think I am, who spends all its time complaining about other people's jobs. I'm complaining about Square and job designs, so please don't get me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

*snip*

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Beautifully explained.

Oh, this is awsome, now that AST has gotten buffs and is viable to use and can compete for a spot, NOW the WHM crying threads are starting because having the strongest heals is just not enough anymore, Will this ever end?

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Yes, I don't take your reason. Your card system is still broken. C'mon, even a Trait that enhances the rate of drawing Ewer at XX% MP would be good, but instead SE overlooked a flawed job design and said "let's just increase some potencies and durations and make them closer to WHMs since they're a safer healer". Do you see my problem?

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Because higher chance to draw card is still a chance, its not RELIABLE. Potency boost is RELIABLE, which is something AST desperately needed.

What a lot of you guys seem to neglect is:

A) It doesn't matter if SE buffed the cards (which they kinda did), because those cards don't mean a thing if you can't keep the party alive.

B) Why are you guys in tears over Astro getting heal potency buffs ? Astro now has the uniqueness of Noc granting us strong Aoe shields, which makes us the best aoe shielder.

C) Are we really going to make "muh Heeps D:" a thing ? Like really ?

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Originally Posted by Noira

What a lot of you guys seem to neglect is:

A) It doesn't matter if SE buffed the cards (which they kinda did), because those cards don't mean a thing if you can't keep the party alive.

B) Why are you guys in tears over Astro getting heal potency buffs ? Astro now has the uniqueness of Noc granting us strong Aoe shields, which makes us the best aoe shielder.

C) Are we really going to make "muh Heeps D:" a thing ? Like really ?

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It is also being neglected that this is not /all/ about AST. There are plenty of threads about the buffs and why or how they should have been done differently. It is a part of the argument but I think it more or less just made a problem in progress all the more obvious rather than being the root of it.

No WHM was thrilled when we lost Granite skin etc either, which essentially just made us less unique. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem being the healer that can save groups from stupid/bad luck/lag/being under geared or whatever causes people to suddenly end up on the brink of death. If that is to be our identity, I'm all for it. I just feel they need to go further to differentiate us if that is the case. Potency now is too uniform for that to be the selling point of the WHM and our DPS, while it has some punch, is also limited by the fact that we have to be very careful when we stance dance since our regens can only do so much to hold off death in our absence. I'm not an expert and I imagine its tough as heck to balance healers considering they all have to...you know...keep you from becoming a corpse and that is really the only claim to fame WHM ever had. Maybe give WHM some other idle 'oh crap' move to further shove them into a niche once more? Something connected to their protect again that triggers a small heal when a player drops under such and such hp percentage and 'eats' the protect buff to save their life. Then goes on a(probably large) cooldown for that player for an extended amount of time or until combat is over? I don't know. Just throwing out ideas.

The ideal situation would be each healer adding something special to the mix. AST and SCH have that something already. WHM just needs a bit of help in that department. Maybe the best thing to do here is not have a AST vs WHM war but ask if anyone has suggestions for keeping us all from morphing into one another for the sake of balance?

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I'm only discussing here because I'm working now, the little time I get at home I spend playing my class and doing things I like in the game. I'm not that monster you think I am, who spends all its time complaining about other people's jobs. I'm complaining about Square and job designs, so please don't get me wrong.

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I wonder when did i call you a "monster"? o.O
And as i said, AST is a hybrid, do i like the idea? no. I wish they were unique, in that thread i mentioned where "people asked for unique changes" i saw some amazing ideas that i would love to see in game, BUT sadly that's not going to happen, because SE had the brilliant idea of creating a hybrid, and a hybrid is a mess to balance.
What i don't agree is with WHMs being seriously dramatic and acting like if their job has been stolen and that they are not "unique" , which is ridiculous, WHM will aways be the best and prefered healer in the game.
And WHM/SCH combo still is the master combo for raids their synergy is impecable.
Seriously, WHMs are whining over nothing.
AST Noc asp.ben. is stronger then a un-crit Adlo from SCHs, and i see no SCHs whining about it.
AST Noc asp.hel. is slightly stronger than succor since ASTs have the 5% buff in their potencies while in Noc, and i see no SCHs whining and being so dramatic like you guys are.
Honestly, STOP.
AST needed these buffs, again, THEY NEEDED IT.
WHMs won't be replaced, AST will not be reworked. Can we stop now?

Disclaimer : Below is my personal opinion as a WHM player:
WHM's specialty is the ridiculous amount of heals it can bring.
Due to the above fact, WHM's specialty is that it has the "easiest" ability to shoulder over 90% healing responsibilities of a team.

As ironic as this sounds, a WHM's full potential can only be realized the less his co-healer is healing. If your co-healer is not comfortable with DPSing, you're better off switching over to AST/SCH, as you will not require the full healing capabilities of a WHM, and might as well enjoy the utilities a SCH/AST brings.

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Originally Posted by Noira

What a lot of you guys seem to neglect is:

A) It doesn't matter if SE buffed the cards (which they kinda did), because those cards don't mean a thing if you can't keep the party alive.

B) Why are you guys in tears over Astro getting heal potency buffs ? Astro now has the uniqueness of Noc granting us strong Aoe shields, which makes us the best aoe shielder.

C) Are we really going to make "muh Heeps D:" a thing ? Like really ?

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One of the core issue is what gave WHM it's identity was its HPS. It had a role as the backbone of a healing team, providing the heavy lifting of direct heals and it was and is very good at this. The identity was only strengthened in HW with the new spells WHM got combined with the watering down of what raid utility outside of healing it had.

As a result WHM defines itself as a Power healer and AoE damager. If another class matches it in raw healing and still brings more to the table suddenly WHM looks like the weak link. What defined it as a class becames the standard.

The problem here is a design one. Astro had to be able to step into the healing roles the other two healer provided and so they got the ability to do so. The problem is that to fill that role they have to be able to match the other healers in those roles. This stepped on SCH a little but SCH has a diverse enough skill set, identity and utility that it wasn't too bad. For a WHM its basically challenged the core aspect of what WHM defines itself as as a healer. WHM lack versatility or utility. They do one type of thing for support and they do it very well.

Simply put, if AST are going to match WHM as backbone healers, WHM identity shouldn't be focused on being a backbone healer otherwise they will feel inferior to the more versatile and utility rich AST. This doesn't mean AST should be weaker. As I said, this is a class design issue. It means WHM needs to have its identity not bound up in what has become a prerequisite of healer classes in the role they fill.

extra MND when in party?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Simply put, if AST are going to match WHM as backbone healers, WHM identity shouldn't be focused on being a backbone healer otherwise they will feel inferior to the more versatile and utility rich AST. This doesn't mean AST should be weaker. As I said, this is a class design issue. It means WHM needs to have its identity not bound up in what has become a prerequisite of healer classes in the role they fill.

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Yo this is a good post, and is the heart of why White Mages always seem to feel threatened by any healing buffs or changes. Scholars have a pet, Astrologians have cards, white mages need to feel like they've got a class beyond "heals good," because that's just unsustainable.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

You are wrong on so many levels.

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Since you seem to not understand what the word "wrong" means, I'm going to go ahead and assume you don't know what the word "levels" means, either...

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You can either heal everyone for 300 pot or Dmg for 300 pot the dmg is not worth taking into account if you are not into cleric stance so no you cant do both at the same time , like your CU.

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Assize
Deals unaspected damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 300.
Additional Effect: Restores own HP and the HP of nearby party members
Cure Potency: 300
Additional Effect: Restores 10% of own MP

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It does all of the above, and yes, CU puts a 150 regen for 15 seconds AND reduces damage taken by 10%, but the AST has to stand there and channel it!!!

The other healers can put up their bubbles and then continue doing other things.

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-E4E has a huge cooldown for whm
-Virus is worthless for a whm 99% of the tank busters in this game are magical dmg , normal virus does not reduces INT, i think ravensbeak is physical and maybe secondary head (not sure about that)

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1. WHM at least gets to USE these abilities. AST doesn't get either one (and disable is nice, but only lasts 6 seconds).

2. Virus is great for reducing the damage a boss is doing, even through auto attacks, if you need to buy some breathing room. Not just for tank busters.

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-bene never restores 100% hp ever , best case scenario is 99% normal case maybe arround 75%ish

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Then it's bugged and someone should report it.

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-you mean asylum ? again look at your CU , you get frggin both 10% reduction and a huge hot (which you can expand)

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The "huge" hot is worse than WHM's Regen, and once again, you have to STAND THERE AND DO NOTHING or the bubble goes away. Yes, the buff endures for 15 seconds afterwards, but this bubble isn't going to do jack squat unless the other healer is alive because THEY'LL be doing the REAL healing at that point.

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Only thing that makes WHM special now is the ability to use a Cane instead of a Star Globe.

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Then trade your cane in for a star globe, get to 60 on AST and enjoy the biggest helping of crow anyone has ever eaten since Penny Arcade's Tycho said BMX XXX would sell well...

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Originally Posted by Belhi

One of the core issue is what gave WHM it's identity was its HPS.

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You all keep acting like they nerfed whm. They didn't, and it's still the highest hps healer. Quit crying.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

You all keep acting like they nerfed whm. They didn't, and it's still the highest hps healer. Quit crying.

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It's been said many times, but No matter what they do, someone will be unhappy with something. all the complaning to buff AST now they do, now its time for WHMs to start complaning that they have no "indentity" and yet they are still a highly desired if not borderline mandatory healing class.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

You all keep acting like they nerfed whm. They didn't, and it's still the highest hps healer. Quit crying.

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It is not about nerfing. It is about the fact that, unfortunately, in the process of trying to balance healers Square has failed to factor in that they need to give WHM an identity of their own if all healers are going to have similar healing potency. Especially since, as said, they made specific efforts to make WHM a 'heals and only heals' class. We only barely have the larger heals and bring nothing else of great note to the table. At least in comparison to our healing brothers and sisters. It isn't about who is weak and who is not. We are definitely closer now to everyone being 'competitive'. It is about making sure everyone has their own unique strength/feel in addition to just being able to heal.

You have Assize, you have decent dps, you have the strongest regen, you have the strongest aoe dps, you have an ability that auto tops off in high emergencies, you have cure 3 that when combined with DS is pretty much mp saving. You have an aoe healing soil that saves you mp.

Whm has its own identity you guys are just in tears because astro is now an option.

Wow, wow...as someone who plays both, Whm and Ast as main i can't stand still on this topic.
Ok, i also felt quite salty that my unique Protect + Stoneskin were gone (together with the other nerfs Whm had to endure at the Start of HW), but Whm is still (and will always be) the most powerful healer in this game.
I'd rather take Divine Seal over Synastry (although I like both skills) and everyone who did at least A1S knows that the 5yalms on Medica II are not only lifesaving, but are making everything SO MUCH easier...
Plus: Ast is played completely different than Whm, so ppl saying "Ast = Whm with Cards" are really hurting my eyes...
Please...before posting such crap at least play both classes at the same content, thx.

The perception of identity is all subjective! No one is ever, ever going to agree on what makes you identify as your class or how your class is identified on a grander scale. The beauty of it about being a game is that you can place the class however you like (within the bounds of its design).

Sometimes I wish there were moderators that could lock threads. This thread is pointless, and will never benefit the community - just create more circular debates.

It's not meant to be a 'war' between the classes.

No one is replacing anyone, no one is forcing you to play a specific class, no one is favouring one class over others. Healing is about working as a team. A WHM/AST team is great, a WHM/SCH team is great, a AST/SCH combo is great - They all have their unique advantages AND play styles and there is no universal right or wrong set-up or play style to go with.

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Originally Posted by Coltvoyance

Let the flaming begin.

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Also your attitude towards the debate and this notion flaming is childish...

As someone who has played both AST and WHM (AND SCH) in A1s and A2s they play very, very differently but both can do the job well now.

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Originally Posted by BroodingFicus

It is not about nerfing. It is about the fact that, unfortunately, in the process of trying to balance healers Square has failed to factor in that they need to give WHM an identity of their own if all healers are going to have similar healing potency.

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Whm still has an identity. They have the highest healing output, most/best emergency skills, and best raid healing in the game. When a raid needs a healer for a healing intensive fight, their first stop will be whm.

Just because ast shares a few similarities doesn't mean you have to have a tumblr level identity crisis over it.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

The perception of identity is all subjective! No one is ever, ever going to agree on what makes you identify as your class or how your class is identified on a grander scale. The beauty of it about being a game is that you can place the class however you like (within the bounds of its design).

Sometimes I wish there were moderators that could lock threads. This thread is pointless, and will never benefit the community - just create more circular debates.

It's not meant to be a 'war' between the classes.

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It isn't really your place to define what is worth discussion and what isn't. Some people think this is an important topic that they'd like to discuss. If you're not interested, you're not required to participate.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

You all keep acting like they nerfed whm. They didn't, and it's still the highest hps healer. Quit crying.

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Is that the only part of my post you actually read cause if you read it you would realise you completely missed the point of my post.

My point is that for balance issues having a healer who's identity is their healing output is fundamentally flawed. There is no way to maintain that as a specialisation and identity of a job if other jobs are supposed to fill the same role as them. The core issue here seems to be not that WHM is underpowered or that AST overpowered or even that the AST buffs were needed. The issue is that WHM lacks any real identity out of a trait that is a requirement for anyone wanting to fill their role in a group. WHM healing comes at the lack of non healing utility and mitigation. For a AST to fill a WHM's role it needs to be able to manage its healing output. However ASTs have a lot more to them than that. WHM don't.

There is the core issue. Its a problem with WHM design and the fact what makes it 'special' is tied up in a feature all healers doing the role a WHM does should have. This is probably why WHMs feel threatened. If AST can do their role as well as they can, then what defines a WHM apart from what it lacks in utility and versatility?

This isn't an issue of Overpowered or Underpowered. Its a issue of Job design.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

It isn't really your place to define what is worth discussion and what isn't. Some people think this is an important topic that they'd like to discuss. If you're not interested, you're not required to participate.

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It can't be a proper discussion when the OP doesn't even have both the healing classes their making comparisons at max level.

It would be like me going to the tank forum and saying PLD has no identity because DRK has better magic damage mitigation and can do everything I can do....

OP isn't going to get anything out of it. OP is never going to be swayed no matter what other people say. They're just looking support for their own arguements

For all the crybabies and chicken littles, please grow up, the sky is not falling, and AST is not killing your precious SCH or WHM job. The adjustment is SERIOUSLY needed to bring AST healing capabilities up to par with the other two, nothing more, nothing less. Now whenever you are paired with another AST, you can at least be comfortable to know their healing capabilities is not subpar and they bring a nice set of utilities to help your party to do more DPS, etc... Y'all should rejoice, and glad to see that you can now level AST knowing it is a very capable healer job.

And I got one word for those of you crybaby SCH: STFU!!! The last thing I want is for the community to realize how good and OP Scholar is at its current state. We do not need SE to do minor tweaks and adjustment so that our power is balanced compared to the other two healers, SE already did enough damage with 3.0. So kindly, just STFU, just be happy you can now DPS more with AST in the party, and no need to act like babies and putting spotlight on how great SCH is compared to the other two healers in the game.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

It can't be a proper discussion when the OP doesn't even have both the healing classes their making comparisons at max level.

It would be like me going to the tank forum and saying PLD has no identity because DRK has better magic damage mitigation and can do everything I can do....

OP isn't going to get anything out of it. OP is never going to be swayed no matter what other people say. They're just looking support for their own arguements

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Except I have altered my original post, in some parts to the contrary of what I originally thought, based on what people have said here.

And the arguement of "Only the 1337-core with lvl 60's should have opinions" has been done already in this thread. As the person said before you, if you dont like the discussion, you dont have to participate in it.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

The perception of identity is all subjective! No one is ever, ever going to agree on what makes you identify as your class or how your class is identified on a grander scale. The beauty of it about being a game is that you can place the class however you like (within the bounds of its design).

As someone who has played both AST and WHM (AND SCH) in A1s and A2s they play very, very differently but both can do the job well now.

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Yoshi P back in the 3 hour live letter when they first revealed new HW skills said himself that WHM was designed as the output healer or words to that effect. AST was supposed to be all about its cards. I classes identity is defined by its design. That's why I'm saying its a design issue.

You say within the bounds of design and that's exactly what Im talking about. The core identity that the WHM was designed about is flawed and counter to a balance in healer role dynamics.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

For all the crybabies and chicken littles, please grow up, the sky is not falling, and AST is not killing your precious SCH or WHM job. The adjustment is SERIOUSLY needed to bring AST healing capabilities up to par with the other two, nothing more, nothing less. Now whenever you are paired with another AST, you can at least be comfortable to know their healing capabilities is not subpar and they bring a nice set of utilities to help your party to do more DPS, etc... Y'all should rejoice, and glad to see that you can now level AST knowing it is a very capable healer job.

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Your right about it being nice that AST can now perform their role. Sadly you seem to have failed to bother reading many of the posts and as a result have completely missed the point. This is about WHMs not AST.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

It would be like me going to the tank forum and saying PLD has no identity because DRK has better magic damage mitigation and can do everything I can do....

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There was threads like that though the core issue PLDs seem to have was that PLDs have inferior DPS to the other two.

On the flipside PLDs have utility the other two tanks don't, which makes it a poor mirror for the issues WHM have.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

It can't be a proper discussion when the OP doesn't even have both the healing classes their making comparisons at max level.

It would be like me going to the tank forum and saying PLD has no identity because DRK has better magic damage mitigation and can do everything I can do....

OP isn't going to get anything out of it. OP is never going to be swayed no matter what other people say. They're just looking support for their own arguements

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I would be curious to understand what gives you special privilege to define what kinds of discussion people are allowed to start. To be honest, I have my own opinions on this topic, but it doesn't sit right with me when someone basically says 'you're not allowed to talk cause I said so'. If you see no value in this discussion, exercise free will and try some other threads.