Sustain on SMN

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Originally Posted by Alisi

Right.

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Awesome. Glad you agree.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Although I put Regen on my co-healer Fairies and on some pets when I have enough time, I really think pets weren't designed to need any heals besides the ones from its owner. You should ask for a buff to Sustain, defense or HP regeneration on pets, not "blame it on the healers". If we were truly supposed to heal pets, they would be on our party list too, not only yours.

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It's for those reasons that no pet owner should be critical of a healer if the pet does die. While I never blamed it on the healers here, if we were truly not supposed to heal pets, they wouldn't be targetable and you wouldn't see HP at all. As it stands, you can target pets (AoE as well) and you do have ways to see HP.

Most cases of pet mortality can be linked directly back to poor management on the part of the owner; it's really hard to get a summon killed if you're paying attention to placement.

AoE heals are almost always sufficient to keep pets alive under normal circumstances. A lot of the resistance to the idea of healing pets is likely stemming from the significant resentment many healers already feel over being relied upon to save others from the consequences of their own horrible gameplay.

Yeah, I'm not going to single target heal your pet. Everything that could kill them is avoidable with proper placement. And you could always *gasp* re-summon it. The only people that need to "git good" are the pet owners who can't manage their pets and expect healers to carry them.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Most cases of pet mortality can be linked directly back to poor management on the part of the owner; it's really hard to get a summon killed if you're paying attention to placement.

AoE heals are almost always sufficient to keep pets alive under normal circumstances. A lot of the resistance to the idea of healing pets is likely stemming from the significant resentment many healers already feel over being relied upon to save others from the consequences of their own horrible gameplay.

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Fortunately, no one is arguing its our responsibility to carry bad players. Just like it's the responsibility of a melee DPS to avoid mechanics as able, a pet owner should maintain their pet, but that reason does not justify saying in regard to pets a healer has zero responsibility in any capacity.

As a caveat, there is no placing Ifrit to avoid mechanics, every boss has mechanics.

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

Yeah, I'm not going to single target heal your pet.

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You can obviously do whatever you want, but let's not pretend that excuses taking no action.

And,

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

Everything that could kill them is avoidable with proper placement.

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Shit happens. To everyone.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

You can obviously do whatever you want, but let's not pretend that excuses taking no action.

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Listen, my love, when you progress past your shitty i170 gear and DREX accessories, you can lecture me about what is excusable for a healer.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

Shit happens. To everyone.

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Yes, and when it happens to you, then you absorb the cost of that mistake. Particularly when it's so easy for you to correct on your own by just re-summoning your pet or having the bare minimum of raid awareness.

I'm wondering what content it is you actually do that keeps killing your precious Egi. You must be truly terrible.

Oh good. We got to the insult other people part of the thread. Classy move.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

As a caveat, there is no placing Ifrit to avoid mechanics, every boss has mechanics.

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On the contrary, placing Ifrit correctly is extremely important. This is how you avoid having him eat cleaves, which are one of the only mechanics that can actually threaten him.

The only circumstance under which I find it necessary to throw a targeted heal of some kind to a pet is when the SMN is very inexperienced or perhaps lazy (or, rarely, the horrible tank is dancing in circles and making it impossible for the poor SMN to position to avoid cleaves). I'll give a few "benefit of the doubt" heals, but if the situation continues and is the SMN's fault, I will eventually stop helping. Chances are that if the SMN is that bad, my personal DPS exceeds theirs if I stop wasting time healing their pet.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

On the contrary, placing Ifrit correctly is extremely important. This is how you avoid having him eat cleaves, which are one of the only mechanics that can actually threaten him.

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Cleaves are an exception, not the rule. Plenty of non-cleave AoE mechanics such that it's not worth the DPS loss to micro-manage Ifrit's position. And it should go without saying but I'll say it, when solely regarding damage taken, there are times Garuda is better DPS.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The only circumstance under which I find it necessary to throw a targeted heal of some kind to a pet is when the SMN is very inexperienced or perhaps lazy.

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AoE heals trivalize the necessity of single-target heals, since pets are pretty durable. But not having to actively worry about it isn't the same as actively refusing to do it. Refusing, in general, is poor sportsmanship.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

Cleaves are an exception, not the rule. Plenty of non-cleave AoE mechanics such that it's not worth the DPS loss to micro-manage Ifrit's position. And it should go without saying but I'll say it, when solely regarding damage taken, there are times Garuda is better DPS.

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This lines up with what I've already said. No, you aren't expected to move your summon for every yellow circle, but you don't need to for aforementioned reasons.

Garuda vs. Ifrit is both another discussion entirely and dependent on the situation. Survivability is not the major factor in that decision, either; the only case in which Ifrit is a real challenge in that sense is when the SMN positions him poorly or forgets to adjust him if the tank changes position.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

AoE heals trivalize the necessity of single-target heals, since pets are pretty durable. But not having to actively worry about it isn't the same as actively refusing to do it. Refusing, in general, is poor sportsmanship.

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I wouldn't take people here too literally. If something unforeseen happens, I'm sure that most players who notice a problem will pitch in; after all, if they think about it, they'd rather have the SMN remain focused on DPS rather than stopping to resummon it (if the SMN is playing well, Swiftcast should more or less constantly be on CD). What I believe usually happens is that the SMN loses their pet because they handled it poorly and then wonders why the healer wasn't helping. An average healer probably has minimal or no awareness of a SMN's pet because they rarely ever die in the first place.

Anyway, to tie all of this together, I believe that it is the primary responsibility of the SMN to manage their pet correctly. A good healer will help if something unexpected happens, but there's a reasonable limit to how much help should be expected from that quarter.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Survivability is not the major factor in that decision, either; the only case in which Ifrit is a real challenge in that sense is when the SMN positions him poorly or forgets to adjust him if the tank changes position.

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Hence the "solely" part, I only brought it up since someone would undoubtedly argue "use Garuda" (prolly vaguely derogative) if it wasn't spelled out.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I wouldn't take people here too literally.

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I would, but some people leave very little room to.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Anyway, to tie all of this together, I believe that it is the primary responsibility of the SMN to manage their pet correctly. A good healer will help if something unexpected happens, but there's a reasonable limit to how much help should be expected from that quarter.

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That works fine, although we now have 3 pet jobs to look at. I would qualify it as needed instead of just something unexpected happens, since as needed encompasses not only the unexpected but also keeping the party high-speed. It's splitting hairs, though.

So uh... just to check, not to argue: I use a controller to play. It just feels more organic to me, and I tend to get lost with a full keyboard of keys. Since this admittedly means I can't point and click, it means I have a bit more difficulty placing my pet. Since the argument seems to have swayed into "Keep your Pet alive" should I take the bit of extra time adjusting my Pet's positioning in movement heavy fights like Midgarsormer or just keep heel and attack on the go? Obviously this is above and beyond it catching AOE heals and trying to keep it sustained, without hurting my MP too much.

Pets are the owner's responsibility, no one else's.

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I don't care if MCHs can bring their turrets back on [a] whim, they're getting healed too.

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lol.

I'm just curious, but based on responses I'm seeing in this thread, just how much damage are your pets taking in a single fight?

I've run countless raids and I have NEVER seen pets get so low to the point where they risk dying from natural causes. Pets are immune to like 95% of the damage of AoE attacks. The only real threat to pets are direct hits (if it's tanking) or cleaves (if it gets clipped). The former should only be happening if it's Titan-egi and only under unique circumstances. The latter just means you really need to get better at placement or the tank needs to stop spinning the enemy.


Seriously though, if a pet just happens to take a wack to the face (because it happens), they are going to lose 25-30% HP at the MOST. Sustain is more than enough. Hell, it exists specifically for that reason, as a patch-job. If you're pet is taking that much damage to a point where Sustain can't even keep up, you're doing something grossly wrong (and probably should just change jobs to something that lacks pet-management).

The only contents where e.g. Garuda eats a lot of damage is Keeper of the Lake and Shiva Ex, if it gets hit by many AoEs.

But I let it rather die one time and resummon it with Swiftcast, than using like 3-5 GCDs for Sustain in a fight.
At least when I'm synched to lvl 50... with lvl 60 i'd rather waste my MP with additional Ruin3s.

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Originally Posted by Velox

I'm just curious, but based on responses I'm seeing in this thread, just how much damage are your pets taking in a single fight?

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The root of the argument is not "my pet is dying", the root argument is healers keep people functional. The simplest example is a healer is expected to clear a WAR's Pacification when that has nothing to do with getting to the end alive.

People treat the responsibility like it's binary, like it can only be either or between two players. So you get stuff like it's the owner's responsibility anda no one else's, when the logical extension of healers keep people functional is the complete opposite.

Sustain being enough for upkeep just means the healer doesn't have to worry, not the right to outright refuse. Same for healing other players, being in cleric stance, and not seeing HP bars in party list. The fact that pets are durable just means it's an easy responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

But I let it rather die one time and resummon it with Swiftcast, than using like 3-5 GCDs for Sustain in a fight.
At least when I'm synched to lvl 50... with lvl 60 i'd rather waste my MP with additional Ruin3s.

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Biggest issue with that is Swiftcast should be used at a bare minimum with Shadow Flare, and using it in a Dreadwyrm Trance rotation is not out of the question. That means Swiftcast is usually on cooldown when you need it for a Resummon, or even Ressurection.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

should I take the bit of extra time adjusting my Pet's positioning in movement heavy fights like Midgarsormer or just keep heel and attack on the go?

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Heel is almost always enough because you're usually trying to be where the damage is not.

Lmao like how this thread went from a buff to sustain (which I actually agree with) to a clearly bad SMN whine about how heals should now not only heal the tank and party members aswell as dps to help kill things faster but also heal egis because "git gud" is now a thing you say to sound cool whilst you play your class like crap.

Last I checked as a sch (that actually manages their pet) I have to place, obey and heel my fairy numerous times in a fight all while also healing dpsng dodging the same mechanics you are, so why are you not good enough to know when to heel your pet so they don't take unneeded damage? You have one job (do damage) You have to do this whilst also dodging avoidable damage so keeping you pet out of danger should be nothing I never lose my pet to damage, as a SMN you have the same tools I have to keep your egi alive stop being lazy and use them, also sustain should be used before your pet is close to dying not to save its life from death because you were not paying attention to it the whole fight.

If you could have actually bothered to add something worthwhile without stooping to insulting people, you might have "clearly" understood what was being said because not once did I say that this was an excuse for a pet user to not manage their pets. Clearly. My hat is off to you.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Or, Big OR here, healers get good.

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Do you have any idea how hard it is sometimes to click something on the field instead of in a party list? If the pet was in the party list I'd care more. Ifrit goes straight to the boss, in exactly the same spot that melee dps hang out, and on top of that he is small. Usually I end up clicking either the dps, the tank, or the boss. I dont have time screwing around with trying to click objects on the field. If it was that easy, then I would be healing by clicking on the field instead of the party list

How about this: I'm a human, ill heal humans. Eos/Selene is a summon, make it so they can heal the pets, problem solved. Sorry whm. Least you get medica 2...

Summoner could definetly benefit from a tweak to sustain. I don't want to see the potency go up, but rather, would like to see the cost get changed.

NOW, this doesn't mean that the healers should slack on trying to keep up pets. No matter how you slice it, it is a -DPS LOSS- to lose a pet, wether it be egi or turret, as well, it is a -DPS LOSS- to use sustain whenever its available. You can say its a fast cast or w/e you want, but it costs you one global. It adds up if your using it during any form of uptime in a 10-13 minute encounter. So if you think you're being cool by not healing pets, you're being foolish. It's a shared responsibility between healers and pet owner, which is why I think sustain should be changed.

Pets are direct responsability of their masters. A good smn will 1) choose the best egi for each fight; 2) place his pet correctly and 3) sustain it when needed. Keeping your pet alive is the same as dodging visible AoEs on the ground, Egi's an extension of its master and the master has to manage it, period. As a SCH, I have better things to do than healing an Egi...like outdpsing 90% of the dps jobs I find in DF, for example.
Having said that, I can agree on a slight buff to sustain, even though I've neved felt the need for it, even in A2S when my fairy occasionaly gets hit by the Doll's ranged aoe.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Summoners have better things to do than get deadlocked into spamming sustain, physic, summons on their pets constantly.

On top of that you can see their HP bar by default simply by looking at them, unless you turned that off for some awful reason. >:|

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Not healers job to look after SMN pet, again the reason why i would like a better sustain, its their job to look after THEIR pet, I turned their hp bar off because I don't need more junk onscreen.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Healers' job is to heal the entire party. Pets are a significant power to pet jobs, without them, they aren't good...
...But of course loads of healers just snooze about and be obsessed with DPS in this game.

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Healers job is to keep the party alive not JUST heal, and again reason why pets need a better sustain.
How can you snooze about and be obsessed with dpsing? That's conflicting lol
I'd rather not stand in one spot waiting for a tank to lose 5%hp, no thank you!

Summoner could definetly benefit from a tweak to sustain. Wether it be off of the GCD or changing the potency of the heal itself.

NOW, this doesn't mean that the healers should slack on trying to keep up pets. No matter how you slice it, it is a DPS LOSS to lose a pet, wether it be egi or turret, as well, it is a DPS LOSS to use sustain unless during downtime. It has a fast cast, but it costs you a GCD. It adds up if your using it during any form of uptime in a 10-13 minute encounter. So if you think you're being cool by not healing pets, you're being foolish. It's a shared responsibility between healers and pet owner, which is why I think sustain should be changed.

I'd prefer it if Arcanist didn't have Sustain at all. Arcanist should have a cooldown to improve Physick in its place. Specifically, it should increase the potency of the next 3 to 5 Physicks by 20% and allow both INT and MND to affect its healing potency, and last for about 30-45s, at the cost of having a 180 second cooldown. This way SCH has another raw healing tool for topping off single people, while SMN has it for emergencies or pet management. In turn, the natural sustain of the pets would be increased somehow, likely by giving them vamp on their most spammable pet action as part of Enhanced Pet Actions, or a new trait.

For the sake of BLM and WHM I also think Supervirus should be rolled into Virus. That way this cooldown could be improved with the missing trait somehow, like reducing its cooldown by 12-20s (in total 1 minute reduction, depending on how many stacks the cooldown gives you) if you heal yourself or your pet, since SMN is lacking personal defensive cooldowns compared to other classes.

I also think this ability should be cross-classable, for BLM's sake mostly. WHM won't use it (cure is better for them), and the limit on stacks plus long CD keeps BLMs from doing anything too ridiculous with it, while setting a general rule that casters have emergency healing as part of their utility. It would be nice to make this standard since everyone would want this on Red Mage and it fits SMN already. BLM's the only stretch, but I think it's fair to give them this.

While healing, if for some reason I can I will toss a regen on a pet. That normally helps. This isn't a common thing. I will stoneskin the pets before fights also but then again this is a personal preference.

I will say I think Sustain needs a boost, more regen and at a higher potency with maybe a defensive boost added to it. Reduced dmg taken by 5%

Just make it so that pets don't get those long, long dot debuffs in the first boss of void ark, because nobody will ever heal a pet and then you have to sustain it for a million years. Literally the only fight I've ever had trouble keeping a pet alive on, and it's rare.

A buff to Sustain I can understand, but this implication that Healers are to blame if the SMN loses their pet is hilarious. Part of the job requirement includes pet management, and you're given tools to achieve this.