Artificial Difficulty

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

This isn't artificial difficulty, it's just something that you don't like.

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Nope, it's real difficulty. Stuff based on reflexes is real difficulty, because not everybody is capable of doing it. A fight based on a scripted rotation can even be done by someone with the reflexes of a snail, the only thing you might need is just more tries.

As for

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Having fights rely on RNG has its problems too because then you'll have times when the fight is easy and others when you simply just can't win.

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Extend the length of the fights and this problem is instantly solved.
"But then it wouldn't be fun". Well I'm not talking about fun, I'm talking about what would be really difficult. Knowing what's coming beforehand triviallizes your skill and then it all becomes a memory battle (which everyone can do and the only difference between someone really skilled and someone utterly demented will simply boil down to more tries).

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Originally Posted by Gallus

A fight based on a scripted rotation can even be done by someone with the reflexes of a snail, the only thing you might need is just more tries.

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And on each try, you will improve yourself until you manage to pull it off perfectly. That's one kind of difficulty. Something we see all the time in rythm games, for example.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Extend the length of the fights and this problem is instantly solved.

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Then you'd also need to restrict some mechanics. If Titan Ex decides to spam Double Gaols, you're screwed...
If tankbusters happen every 15 seconds, your tank will surely die, too...

But, a fight where each attack has its own cooldown, and where the boss can chose whatever ability he wants that is not on cooldown, could be very fun and interesting. :)

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Nope, it's real difficulty. Stuff based on reflexes is real difficulty, because not everybody is capable of doing it. A fight based on a scripted rotation can even be done by someone with the reflexes of a snail, the only thing you might need is just more tries.

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Sorry, but I don't limit difficulty to "twitch-based" mecahnics. That's just what you prefer, so you deem memorization as "artificial difficulty".

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Extend the length of the fights and this problem is instantly solved.

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No it wouldn't. Like the above poster mentioned, several mechanics will need to be put on cooldown or your party can be easily screwed by the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Nope, it's real difficulty. Stuff based on reflexes is real difficulty, because not everybody is capable of doing it. A fight based on a scripted rotation can even be done by someone with the reflexes of a snail, the only thing you might need is just more tries.

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The problem is not every machine/connection is capable of dealing with your definition of difficulty. I find it hard to call real difficulty if they telegraph it with a giant red outline on the floor and give you time to get out of it.

Okaaaaaay.... now I see why everyone jumped my throat when i mentioned Artificial Difficulty in my thread. lol

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

I've seen this term tossed out countless times over the last couple of years, and I'm curious to know what you think constitutes artificial difficulty, and what constitutes real difficulty. Things I've seen mentioned as artificial difficulty in other threads:

• DPS checks aka performing perfect rotations
• RNG
• Twitch Mechanics
• Scripted mechanics aka memorization
• Team jump rope aka finding 8 people who know the fight
• Content gates or lockouts

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The only artificial difficulty I can think of is ravana not being targetable for a millisecond when it switches stance and leading you to target it again.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I find it hard to call real difficulty if they telegraph it with a giant red outline on the floor and give you time to get out of it.

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It's a delicate balance. If the attack cannot kill you by itself, and is only targeted at you, ok, you don't need to telegrah it.
If the attack as a specific radius that you can't really guess, not telegraphing it is a step toward fake difficulty.
If the attack can one-shot you, no telegraphing it is totally fake difficulty.

And any mechanic where you absolutely need to die at least once to learn is also fake difficulty.

It's not very hard to understand...
Something based on reflexes = not everyone is capable of doing it.
Something based on memory = potentially 99% of the people can pull it.

If everyone can do it, it's not difficult.

What I've found hard in videogames until now? Stuff like:

Red bull challenge in GT5 (people screamed for nerfs because only like 1% were capable of getting gold there xD, and it wasn't a matter of repetition, some people weren't going to succeed even if they were to live 7 times xD).

Certain bosses from the soul games in very low levels. One single mistake and you are one shot.

Now...a scripted battle? It's like saying that memorizing a paragraph is hard. Please get real.

If you want a real challenge or something that really proves your skill, go to any populated PVP moba and make it to the top 100. You are going to make it through real difficulty in order to get there. No artificial difficulty involved.

And no, it's not "different kinds of difficulty". One thing is difficult, the other one is not.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

If everyone can do it, it's not difficult.

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They key term is not really "difficulty" but "artificial".

Like I said, anyone can stop moving or attacking to dodge Blighted Bouquet, so it's not really "difficult".
But nothing in the game indicates that "stop moving or attacking" is the way to survive Blighted Bouquet, so it's totally artificial.

The same is true for T9, with Iceclaw and Fireclaw. First hit ? Almost no damage. Second hit ? One shot ?!

Comparatively, you have Angra Mainyu in WoD. When he does double-vision, you know you have to be in one of the colored area. And you'll see that you take more and more damage to more you stack the same debuff by staying in the same area, so you'll probably switch to the other area, where you'll see that the new debuff overlaps the one you have.
You faced the mechanic, you learned, you found the solution. Not artificial (But this particular mechanic is not that difficult :p)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But nothing in the game indicates that "stop moving or attacking" is the way to survive Blighted Bouquet, so it's totally artificial.

The same is true for T9, with Iceclaw and Fireclaw. First hit ? Almost no damage. Second hit ? One shot ?!

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No.

The mechanics of Blighted Bouquet are not artificial, since they can me dealt with via player skill. They are obfuscated since it's difficult to realize details surrounding the event, but trial and error will reveal this information even if the initial clue provided is sparse. Planned, systematic testing of the ability will reveal it even faster.

The ice and fire attacks are neither artificial in difficulty, nor are their mechanics obfuscated as the tooltip clearly reads "Icebitten: Resistance to attacks by Iceclaw is decreased." and "Firescorched: Resistance to attacks by Firehorn is decreased.".

A challenge is artificially difficult if player effort is disregarded for calculating the result of the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

It's not very hard to understand...
Something based on reflexes = not everyone is capable of doing it.
Something based on memory = potentially 99% of the people can pull it.

If everyone can do it, it's not difficult.

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That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it. You act like people can't train to improve their reflexes and only the "chosen ones" like you, with a superior genetic profile are capable of completing the content. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gallus

If everyone can do it, it's not difficult.

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So yeah it's scripted and everyone can do it. But before or after echo and nerves?
Everything could be easy or hard if you play with people who have same skill level than yours.
I don't know what you're trying to explain, but the difference you make between difficult and easy is pretty much a lot of non sense and partial view since you don't take in account the fact that some players play at 110-120 % potential while others are not at 60 % potential, also you don't seem to take in account the dps checks when you talk about difficulty. That means you assume everyone is playing at 120% potential?
Also in a lot of games you're talking about you're alone and only your own skills matter you don't have to deal with communication. It's easier to be good alone than with a group.

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

trial and error

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Trial and Error is the most basic form of artificial difficulty.

If Icebitten and Firescorshed tooltip read "The next <debuff stack> will kill you. Cannot be applied at the same time at <other debuff>", then yes, it's real difficulty.

Another example: Marked attacks. Some of them need to be taken solo, some of them needs to be split. And you can only decide which one it is after taking it.
For the "solo" one, it rarely causes a wipe, so not a very big deal. But for the "split" one, fake difficulty. If you need to die to understand, it's fake.

Artificial difficulty is when anything detrimental happens regardless of player input.
-Lag
-One Shot mechanics
-Long fights with little to no way to shorten them much
-Enemy invincibility to all counters such as stun,silence,etc
-Unavoidable skills
-Insufficient means by design to tackle obstacles

I would label all you mentioned as "On rails" not as artificial difficulty except for RNG. Because once you learn the rotation of skills and dodging. All content afterwards can be handled the same way not requiring different performance based on specific situations other than gimmicks.

Maybe they mean artificial barriers- barriers that are out of player control... time gating/gear gating when gear is time/capped currency obtained?

My pet peeve is the pseudo-intellectual "hardcore" gaming term "meta". This has got to be the "synergy" of the gaming world....

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Trial and Error is the most basic form of artificial difficulty.

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By this reasoning, all challenges that do not provide full information up front regarding how to overcome the challenge would fall under the label "Artificial Difficulty". Following the "Trial and error is artificial difficulty" reasoning, Super Meat Boy or Dustforce would be mainly artificially difficult since they don't provide you with all information regarding the stage, the hazards and timings within, leaving the player to have to fail in order to gain information.

This is not the case, as all challenges SMB/DF can be overcome by player skill. These games do not invalidate player effort and place them in a failure state arbitrarily.

Trial and error has nothing to do with artificial difficulty and is not an implementation of artificial difficulty. It is the way information is gathered and/or supplied. Given time, the player will be furnished with the information needed to overcome the challenge by player skill.

The Iceclaw/Firehorn tooltips provide the player with more than enough information. They clearly state that if you suffer another attack of the same type, you will take a lot more damage. It is not a leap of logic for a player to thus want to avoid taking another attack of the same kind whilst the debuff is active. Because of the timings of the two attacks, a group will quickly come upon the situation where a player marked with debuff A suffers an attack of type B, subsequently removing the A debuff. Observing and realizing the solution to this puzzle is player effort. Positioning group members to solve this puzzle is player effort and the game lets you pass on to the next phase as a reward. There is nothing artificially difficult about this.

Do not confuse artificial difficulty with the rate/severity at which the game punishes failure and the rate at which information is provided. One-shot mechanics (death wall, distributing damage etc.) are only severe punishments for failure. In addition, one-shot mechanics limit the rate at which information can be gathered since a player will need more attempts to test things.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

That's a pretty stupid way of looking at it. You act like people can't train to improve their reflexes and only the "chosen ones" like you, with a superior genetic profile are capable of completing the content. :rolleyes:

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So I guess we can all train to be Rafael Nadal or Lionel Messi

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Originally Posted by Gallus

So I guess we can all train to be Rafael Nadal or Lionel Messi

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There's a difference between talent and skill. In truth, we could all reach that level in skill... if all of us cared to be professional sports players.

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Originally Posted by DreameR7g

There's a difference between talent and skill. In truth, we could all reach that level in skill... if all of us cared to be professional sports players.

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Your name definitely suits you lol.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Your name definitely suits you lol.

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Thank you for the personal attack. Back to the debate:

Talent cannot be earned through hard work. Talent gives an edge to the people in question. However, skill is what you can earn and hone. It isn't a big secret anymore on how to train your body in order to perform at a professional level. Some merely take to it easier than others (Talent).

The HUGE difference is passion and the drive to want to perform at that high level. The reason why we have so few professionals in this world is because our mental capacity is by and large unknown to us. Hell, a portion of human kind still believes mental illness is people being lazy.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Now...a scripted battle? It's like saying that memorizing a paragraph is hard. Please get real.

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The attacks that you claim to be real difficulty are scripted. Boss starts casting move, ground lights up where you need to not be, you move out of it before casting ends. You have seen the move before and know exactly what it does.

Part of the practice and memorization of a fight is practicing dodging. Anyone can dodge when there's a small number of attacks that the boss can do and they are telegraphed, just the same way anyone can memorize a fight.

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Originally Posted by DreameR7g

Talent cannot be earned through hard work. Talent gives an edge to the people in question. .

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And that's where I'm getting at. You need that edge in certain areas. The FFXIV endgame is not one of them. This is why most people can clear anything in this game with just effort, the only difference will be that certain players will require more tries.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

You need that edge in certain areas.

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Incorrect. Talent is *never* a necessity. Skill, however, can be. Talent is a bonus, an addition to a person but I've never seen anything in the world where Talent is required.

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Originally Posted by DreameR7g

Incorrect. Talent is *never* a necessity. Skill, however, can be. Talent is a bonus, an addition to a person but I've never seen anything in the world where Talent is required.

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Pvp wise of course you do, because if you do not perform better than the person you are playing against you will lose.
When somebody consistently wins somebody else with less training, what do you call that?

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Originally Posted by Gallus

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Skill vs Skill, mainly. That isn't just talent, my dear. I think you are confusing Talent with Skill there.

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

Following the "Trial and error is artificial difficulty" reasoning, Super Meat Boy or Dustforce would be mainly artificially difficult since they don't provide you with all information regarding the stage, the hazards and timings within, leaving the player to have to fail in order to gain information.

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I haven't played SMB of DF, so I can only judge by what I see on videos. In SMB, you can clearly see the hazard. Every stage properly displays the chainsaws in your path, and it's your responsibility to memorize their pattern to reach your goal.

"Trial and error" is not "Failing until you manage to win", it's "Having to fall into every trap until you memorize what they are".
A good example of this is "I Wanna Be The Guy". First screen, you will die to the first cherry falling down on you before you even know it can kill you. When you manage to dodge all the cherries falling, you get on the first platform and you will die to the first cherry falling UP on you. And others screens are the same, you'll only know a trap is there because you died once to it.
And, far earlier, you had "Rick Dangerous" (Damn, I'm old :eek:) for doing the same thing. "Two exact same ladders ? Pick one ! Too bad, this one is a trap, you're dead."

As for T9, it's exactly the same. You'll only know that you need to put meteors apart from each other after your first wipe on that. And since early fights end the first phase with 9 meteors (3 Red, 3 Yellow, 3 Green), chances are you will wipe. For the golem phase, you can do it on first try, since it can be natural to keep them apart. Phase 3, Heavensfall will kill most of your party, since you don't even know that it will knocback, you. The first Garrote Twist will also kill you. Etc, etc...

Now, let's look at Titan Hard. Phase 1, you have Landslide. First, you can dodge it with quick reflex, but even if you fail, the knockback can't kill you and the damage probably won't if your healer play it safe. Now, you know that this attack push you, so that's it's really important to dodge. Transition to phase 2, you can't fall directly when the surrounding shatters, since there's still a ledge. Ok, so now you know that Geocrush destroys the edge of the arena, and you'll be focused on subsequent jumps. In phase 3, you have the first set of bombs, but still a lot of safe space so that you can see how the explosion occurs, etc, etc...
For that, I think Titan is a much more "fair" difficulty, and that didn't prevent it from being a real pain in 2.0.

It's the same for Leviathan, you'll know that Body Slam moves you far before it can be a deadly mechanic...well except that it's only deadly in Extreme :(

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Originally Posted by repoe

Funny stuff, I bequeath this thread the following snippets

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Shit gods forbid a game be difficult AND fun.

What would we do with ourselves?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

<examples from IWBTG, RD, T9>

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Trial and error is a fundamental way of getting information and solving a problem. It's nice that you've brought up more examples, but in the end TnE is different from what constitutes the main chunk of difficulty in the examples. In DMB/DF, the biggest thing stopping a player from completing a level lies in timing the jumps and interactions (the same would be true for IWBTG). The player being forced to test and fail does not make the challenge more difficult, it only increases the time requirement. In these three examples the gathering of information doesn't break game flow either since the levels can be tested and reset comfortably, which is arguably much more important.

In progression, dying to meteors being too close for the first time in T9 or blackfire/whitefire in T12 does not break game flow. You (and everyone else) die within moments and then the party is back on their feet with the encounter reset and ready to be tested again soon thereafter. Trial and error is needed to gather information and more time is needed to solve the puzzle with this information. The trial and error component acts as a way to limit the flow of information. The challenge/difficulty lies in solving the puzzle with that information and the moving and using skills at the right time.

Trial and error methodology does not affect the difficulty of a challenge, but if the methodology breaks game flow the game becomes more frustrating to play.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For that, I think Titan is a much more "fair" difficulty

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An interesting point. Let's compare Titan NM, Titan HM and Titan EX. These three encounters have almost the same basic components in the form of Tumult (AoE damage), Landslide (AoE knockback, area denial), WotL (AoE damage, area denial), Granite Gaol (resource denial). In HM and EX more AoE damage, area denial and knockback is added in the form of new abilities. In EX the adds provide additional area denial and knockback and the Granite Gaols also force positioning.

What is more interesting to note however, is that as we move up in "difficulty" it appears that the positive feedback loop regarding failure becomes stronger. Abilities will take a larger proportion of resources (health/mana) to deal with (assuming appropriate iL), and failures lead to more failures at a quicker pace due to the increasing limits on time to deal with them and time to recover. At the highest level of content in FFXIV this feedback loop is very, very strong.

When moving into raid content, the loop is at times so strong that the recovery window in terms of time or resources becomes so small that many players cannot catch it without outgearing the content. Whilst progressing such content with intended gear the strength of the loop is probably what makes players deem difficulty as "fair" or not.

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

In DMB/DF, the biggest thing stopping a player from completing a level lies in timing the jumps and interactions (the same would be true for IWBTG). The player being forced to test and fail does not make the challenge more difficult, it only increases the time requirement.

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But in SMB or DF, you're not forced to "test" the wrong thing. If you have to reach a door, you'll have lava and chainsaws on your way, and you'll need to time your jumps to overcome these hazards. In a pure "trial and error", you'd have two doors in front of you, and you'll have to guess which one is the right door without any hint (And the wrong will kill you :p)
Of course, no games relies only on "trial and error" mechanics, or it would be blatantly obvious that no skill is required.

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

In progression, dying to meteors being too close for the first time in T9 or blackfire/whitefire in T12 does not break game flow.

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This is something else altogether. Breaking the game flow is not a part of difficulty but longevity. In FFXI, if the whole party wiped in an arena, regardless of difficulty, everyone would have to go to their home point and crawl all the way back to the arena.

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

Trial and error is needed to gather information and more time is needed to solve the puzzle with this information.

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The problem is when the only way to gather information is by failing. Blighted bouquet is really the biggest offender here...I really wonder how the first people found the trick...

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

An interesting point. Let's compare Titan NM, Titan HM and Titan EX.

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Remember that you can't do a stronger Titan without having doner the weaker one. This means that Titan NM provides informations for HM, and HM for EX. So when EX come, the game can be quite brutal in its mechanic since you know how to deal with deal. Now you only have to do it with more stress and less ressources (comparatively)

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

When moving into raid content, the loop is at times so strong that the recovery window in terms of time or resources becomes so small that many players cannot catch it without outgearing the content. Whilst progressing such content with intended gear the strength of the loop is probably what makes players deem difficulty as "fair" or not.

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Raids are the only content where you face one-hit kill mechanic without any prior experience. Even more, the game "tricks" you by using the same almost the same mechahnics with a slight change. For example, when you see the green crosshair mark on you, does the dive occur where you stand at the moment it appears or at the moment it dissapears ?

EDIT : There IS the game that only relies on trial and error ! :)
DRAGON'S LAIR !

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

I've seen this term tossed out countless times over the last couple of years, and I'm curious to know what you think constitutes artificial difficulty, and what constitutes real difficulty. Things I've seen mentioned as artificial difficulty in other threads:

• RNG

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that's the only one, and it's not the the RNG people in this thread seems to be talking about. RNG in what attack a boss will do next is fine, that tests how players react and adapt. that's not the kind of RNG that creates artificial difficulty.

the Atma part of the relic quest was artificially difficult because of low drop rate, the requirements of the quest was to complete FATEs, which in itself is insanely easy. having no idea how many you have to do and having no cumulative effect is what makes it artificial.

grinding light was similar but because every time you complete something you're making progress, it's not as artificial.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

(a) But in SMB or DF, you're not forced to "test" the wrong thing [...]

(b) This is something else altogether. Breaking the game flow [...]

(c) [Regarding Titan]

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(a) A stage SMB/DF can in many cases not be solved through insight or theoretically (and then apply a solution) as the game does not provide complete information regarding said stage or special mechanics when first encountered. In addition for human players, that player must test various parts of the game (jump timing, path) to reach a solution.

Again - your example of a "pure trial and error" game would not be a difficult one, merely an exercise in patience.

(b) That quote feels out of context. Game flow was mentioned to note that gameplay that involved trial and error where error led to a failure state are not inherently detrimental to an experience. I made no correlation between game flow and difficulty.

Solving Blighted Bouquet wouldn't have taken too many tries. First time seeing BB cast, someone stuns/silences/pushes and the tank pops mitigation but everyone dies. We know we can't interrupt it and that it hits everyone. When BB is first used, there are only briar patches in the arena and no adds, so you might try to have the boss on it or stand on it to mitigate the mechanic but everyone dies. Or you'd try standing far away or under the boss but everyone dies. But some of the attempted solutions will involve a player not doing anything (such as a melee DPS at max range waiting for the cast) and that player survives. Now there's a partial solution to the puzzle. Since BB is cast around 70% and the initial burn of the boss is quick, the process of reaching BB and testing it isn't very tedious.

(c) The Titan example was mainly to highlight the failure feedback loop and what is perceived as fair difficulty. That aside, I get the impression that there are a multitude of one-hit kill mechanics outside of raid encounters. But I'm wary. Please detail what your definition of a "one-hit kill mechanic" is.

As for Dragon's Lair, are there not times in the game where observation and deduction can provide the player with the correct answer without blindly attempting all solutions?

ar·ti·fi·cial
ˌärdəˈfiSHəl/
adjective
1.
made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, typically as a copy of something natural.

I prefer Natural Difficulty. Dev's please stop working on the game and let mother nature do it's work.

Having "times of deduction" hardly means anything if trial and error gameplay is the major part of it. If the player cannot tell when to start and stop guessing, what is the diffrrence?