[SUGGESTION] LIMIT POINT / MERIT POINT SYSTEM

I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just going to stand by what I said.

I like merit points / alternate advancement as it were in EverQuest, but in the post-WoW era, there's going to be a "best" and "correct" way to spend your points, so it's just going to kill customization anyway. "Oh, you specced for increased Contagion duration? That's a DPS loss over improved Fester, you gimp."

I'd really only support this if your merit point allocations were invisible to others.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

alternate advancement as it were in EverQuest,

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This is probably my favorite system in any of the MMOs that I have played. It allowed for so much character advancement beyond just getting the best gear.

Yes, the min/maxers will find the "best" things to put points into. But one of the best things about the EQ system was that, given enough time, any player could get all possible AAs.

Something like this would easily give people something to do other than cap on tomestones for the week.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I like merit points / alternate advancement as it were in EverQuest, but in the post-WoW era, there's going to be a "best" and "correct" way to spend your points, so it's just going to kill customization anyway. "Oh, you specced for increased Contagion duration? That's a DPS loss over improved Fester, you gimp."

I'd really only support this if your merit point allocations were invisible to others.

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Your damage output would also have to be invisible to others.

Here's the thing about things like this. And it's the reason WoW moved away from talent trees (something else people ask for a lot).

They aren't real choices. You aren't really making choices there. It looks like you're making choices. You seem to be selecting from a list and allocating points based on what you want. But in reality you have exactly two choices to choose between:
1: Pick the mathematically strongest build.
2: Do it wrong.

People blame min/maxers for sucking the fun out of a game, but the fact of the matter is that in group content you're playing with other people. It's disrespectful to them not to come prepared to play your best game. If you're strictly a solo player and never do any group content, then have at it, your choices are meaningless anyway.

So you're really just choosing to either intentionally gimp yourself or play the best build. It's the same problem I have with the bonus stat allocation system. It isn't a real choice. You can either put the points into your primary stat, or you can choose to do it wrong. The only remotely interesting choice comes from tanks choosing between more vit or more str. And even that can be boiled down to numbers based on gear level for what that tank "should" do to be optimal.

I'm all for meaningful choices, and I like customization. But I'm against the false choice systems that talent trees and merit points produce. They just turn into traps for newer or less-informed players to fall in to and make a mistake just because they didn't know everything.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

...Let me give an example:

Normal level 60 monster would yield a level 60 player 400EXP, while under Merit it would gain 1LP. It would take 100LP to get your first merit (this is just a number im making up at the top of my head) or basically 100 EXP yielding Monster KOs.

For gathering you would need to completely harvest an EXP yielding node to gain 1LP and 100LP would get you your first merit.

For crafting you would need to craft 1HQ and 50NQ EXP yielding items to get 1LP and 100LP to get your first merit.
...

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If it is SE implementation, I can foresee it will be a "relic zodiac" on your skills but not the weapon,
So very likely it will be something like you farm Merit_ATMA, collect Lights, farm dungeon drops, farm materia5 and pray for infusion...etc
I will not so naive to think it will come from my excessive exp after I capped my lv.

Moreover, look at desync item, if they implement merit points, it is predictable that it will be limited to 1-3 jobs or what 300pts shared by all jobs. Eventually it just defeats the principle "everyone can do everything on one character" again.


therefore I OBJECT Merit Point.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Your damage output would also have to be invisible to others.

Here's the thing about things like this. And it's the reason WoW moved away from talent trees (something else people ask for a lot).

They aren't real choices. You aren't really making choices there. It looks like you're making choices. You seem to be selecting from a list and allocating points based on what you want. But in reality you have exactly two choices to choose between:
1: Pick the mathematically strongest build.
2: Do it wrong.

People blame min/maxers for sucking the fun out of a game, but the fact of the matter is that in group content you're playing with other people. It's disrespectful to them not to come prepared to play your best game. If you're strictly a solo player and never do any group content, then have at it, your choices are meaningless anyway.

So you're really just choosing to either intentionally gimp yourself or play the best build. It's the same problem I have with the bonus stat allocation system. It isn't a real choice. You can either put the points into your primary stat, or you can choose to do it wrong. The only remotely interesting choice comes from tanks choosing between more vit or more str. And even that can be boiled down to numbers based on gear level for what that tank "should" do to be optimal.

I'm all for meaningful choices, and I like customization. But I'm against the false choice systems that talent trees and merit points produce. They just turn into traps for newer or less-informed players to fall in to and make a mistake just because they didn't know everything.

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For players like you, there is no "choice". You are obsessed with being "optimal" - like a smoker addicted to smoking.

Worse, you see your way of playing as the only way and think everyone would play the same way.

Never does it occur to you that some people would play for "fun" instead of "optimal".

Part of me rather likes the simplified end game progression system. Do these raids for these items to get this gear that is the best, period. No spreadsheeting or research needed to optimize things like stats, no weighing different pieces and having to adjust which stats I wanted. Just a quick clean get this item, equip it, done.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

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Well said, +1 to all your points.

The merit point system is one of the few things that I don't miss at all from FFXI. It just turned into congratulations on hitting the top level, if you thought the previous 75 levels were a grind then you're going to love 75+ :D

Another point to be brought up; rather than focusing on how to implement more dynamic customization - let's talk about what we want customization to do for us as players.

Ideally (for me) they would make each Merit/spec/whatever viable for various encounters/mechanics/group compositions - this would require tailoring some mechanics to certain builds across multiple fights, balancing, and adding enough fights so that any given build does not have a significant advantage over all the rest; additionally if they make the Merit/spec/whatever easily redistributed nobody would be shoe-horned into only doing "one-thing" - game meta is pretty much incontrovertible at this point. Damage damage damage - but shifting some of the dynamics off of gear and grinding your way toward bigger numbers every 3 months would obviously add some depth to the game overall and give a more full realized sense of character ownership - the game would still be revolve around damage and efficiency but players could compensate for play-style or gaps in their group skill level or ability or tailor their static setups towards the content they're doing regularly so they can work better as a team.

Edit:

Additionally - why is it that Yoshi-P & Team rely solely on themselves and in-house testing when balancing fights, Jobs, mechanics? We could really do with a test server and test server feedback section on the forums so that we as a player base had a little bit more input and could show the devs. possible imbalances or oversights in their designs. I think that a lot of the problems with FFXIV come from a limited pool of testers that have a preconceived idea or notions about how & what their playerbase will do. Test servers would go great lengths towards better overall balance.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

So your suggestion for improvement is to not change? You're happy grinding out a single raid and a few dungeons every 3 months for essentially the same thing over and over and over? Will that really hold your interest for three more years?

You don't have anything more compelling to offer towards improvement of the progression system?

Just more of the same status quo? Just give you higher numbers with the same stats every patch without adding any depth to the combat system or game meta - keep on the same repetitive vertical treadmill every few months?


What's the difference between lv60 i170 and lv60 i210 besides number bloat...?

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This. If It's expected to have this continue for the foreseeable future of this game then myself and many others are without a doubt going to be jumping ship. Many including myself have complained for all the hype, heavensward has been a little bit more then a letdown to a wide group of players. I am sticking around mostly because I have made a good few friends here and have been a fan of FF for years. However if some interesting changes don't come by atleast 4.0 (I'll try to stick it out with heavensward) then I feel I wont be getting anything more from it. It wouldn't be much more then forced entertainment at that point.

I for one would welcome a system that would allow me to continue to advance my level capped class/Job outside of armor upgrades.
Armor upgrades are ephemeral anyway so I would enjoy upgrading my character itself even if very slightly.

As it stands my weekly routine is cap Eso, run Alex and done. I'm not ready to smash my face against Savage yet. I've already kitted my alt job out in upgraded Law gear and with Eso and Alex gear on weekly lockout there is nothing else I can do to advance my main job or even 1 sub job.

Don't get me wrong, I still have lots to do in-game with crafting, gathering & leveling DoW/DoM jobs but that isn't the topic at hand. (and they have their own issues...)

Several people in my FC/LSes are already starting to complain about the weekly hamster wheel. That 'new expansion smell' has started to fade.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

If I want to play FFXI, I have an option to do so. I chose to play FFXIV instead and don't need to see a rehash of events, systems, etc. from that game ported into this one. I want FFXIV to become a world class, unique MMORPG, not a rehash of a game that is now 13 years old.

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It's narrow-minded to assume everyone has that option. A lot of people can barely afford time for one MMO and those people (myself included) chose FFXIV over other games for very real reasons (like my wife not being a typical gamer but enjoying XIV). Merits or no merits, it's not unthinkable to let people wish/request systems inspired by features they enjoyed in previous games.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

For players like you, there is no "choice". You are obsessed with being "optimal" - like a smoker addicted to smoking.

Worse, you see your way of playing as the only way and think everyone would play the same way.

Never does it occur to you that some people would play for "fun" instead of "optimal".

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The problem with your post is that it assumes that people who play optimally aren't doing so for fun. I enjoy my gametime, and get the most enjoyment from the gameplay (so sans the socializing aspect) by doing well at my role, facing a challenge, and succeeding. What I do not find fun is having to work as a collective group X% harder because someone in the group wanted to be different. To me, in a social game, that is the epitome of selfish behavior. Playing solo content or in unsynched/old content do as you please. You will win either way, which makes the choices ironically meaningless as well.

So here is a novel idea. What if--and stay with me here--what if the game wasn't designed around the necessity to have merits. And let's say that merits served more along the lines of an echo-like buff to content? Or what if in Savage mode raids merits did not work?


I mean, to say that character customization is outright a bad thing, or will just be more grinding, or that people will only pick one "build" and all other players who don't pick said build are bad players, is a pretty bold and somewhat inaccurate statement.

In XI, I played as a DRG and there were a set number of abilities you could learn on each job, one of the main abilities was Angon, players said the best build was to max that ability out so you could increase your DPS, however I did not, I put it into Deep Breathing which enhanced my Wyvern's breath attacks, and low and behold, because I had a gear set build that complimented it I was able to keep up with the other players in my groups in terms of DPS.

The main thing about merits is they should open the door to thinking outside the box in terms of finding new ways to increase or better your role. If you choose to cop-out and follow the herd on what to pick because you cannot think critically--well the only shame for that is on you--not on the system itself.

Now if you don't like the idea of merits for the sake of having to be at the "LP grindwheel" then I offer this to you...what exactly are you doing now in this game? What have you been doing in this game since launch? Have you not been at a gear grindwheel, trading out pieces of gear for the next new shiny? Where is the difference between LP and gear? One quick difference is that LP you grind once, gear you can grind until your whetstone is naught but a pebble. You (hypothetical) speak of the illusion of choice yet this game's gear is the biggest illusion of choice to date...so much so you can literally make the illusion of different gear over gear because only ONE set of gear is optimal, versus with merits there could be a numerous amount of combinations that offer optimal builds.

/Micdrop

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

So here is a novel idea-

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I agree with you about the first part - second part is whatever that's a matter of implementation rather than function so it's sort of a personal preference on how you garner whatever it is towards customization. :)

I think you hit all the key issues with a system like this and address them all pretty succinctly - I also agree that the biggest illusion in FFXIV is gear. Item level easily hides the fact that getting new gear every few months is an illusion of growth - numbers get bigger and you feel like you're growing (whoo) - but the only in comparison with older content that is now essentially irrelevant (oh wait..).

Example; I don't go back to Amdapor Keep normal to compare how much stronger I am at lv60 in i190 vs. lv50 in i55 - because it's not really relevant.

This is the issue everyone skirts when clinging to the current system of rigid vertical progression. We don't have a growing expanding game - we have the same "new" shallow end-game every 3~6 months.

Limit/merit was a great system in FFXI, and I could see them bringing it here in similar fashion. OP suggestions aren't bad, but let's look at what such a system REALLY is. An extension. A time sink, something to keep players busy for a while until whenever the developers want to release the next thing. It's a way to feed progression. Right now, we've got new things, a new level cap, new ilvl cap, new raids, new continents, a bunch of new, new, new. Limit/Merit didn't come out in FFXI until the 3rd expansion, at a point in time where power had been capped steadily at level 75. Perhaps it was a way to introduce more power without having to rebalance a whole lot? That was my speculation at the time and I think this holds some truth. But I can see them bringing it to 14, and I wouldn't dislike it either, just not right now, it wouldn't feel right.

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Originally Posted by KMFDM_Kid2000

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Oh I agree with you, its not the right time for Merits yet, however all good ideas take time to develop so I was voicing it now to maybe see it in a year or so.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

For players like you, there is no "choice". You are obsessed with being "optimal" - like a smoker addicted to smoking.

Worse, you see your way of playing as the only way and think everyone would play the same way.

Never does it occur to you that some people would play for "fun" instead of "optimal".

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I didn't say that playing your best is the only way to play. I said it's disrespectful to others not to do it. You're free to make that choice, but you should have no allusions about what you're doing.

If you're playing with other people who ARE doing their best, then you're just a liability if you're not doing the same. It's extremely selfish to make everyone else work harder because you can't be bothered to try.

I'll reiterate too, I LIKE character customization. I wish FFXIV would do more to differentiate people of the same job. I'd like some kind of specialization system to emphasize different playstyles. But I object to false choices. If such a system is going to be implemented, then it has to be balanced such that my performance is roughly the same no matter what I decide to choose. Some spread is inevitable, but it should be really minor (maybe +/- 10% in either direction? I could live with that).

Let me give an example of what I mean.

As a NIN main, maybe I could choose to emphasize my DoT gameplay and have a specialization that revolves around DoTs and getting bonuses when I manage those correctly. Maybe I could have one that emphasizes positional gameplay, adding more positional requirements to my abilities and providing commensurate bonuses when I execute that properly. But whichever one of those I choose, they'd have to be roughly the same in terms of performance. Then it really is a playstyle choice.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

The only real issue is over time this will create a rather wide gap between new and older players, it's fairly well thought out and like FFXI I imagine they'd set it to where you cannot cap out everything. I'm not against the idea on principal but there will be consequences, even if unintended.

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that wouldn't be a issue old players should have a huge gap between them and new players i mean seriosely there should be a gap between the two that is very large

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Only problem with this is we all know the bean-counters, whose primary function in life is to suck the life out of life, will determine the "most efficient" skills and the sheep will follow.

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I understand that people do jot like that argument, but people like doing the math and figuring out the best. People also like not wanting to deal with the doing the math and just looking for a well informed guide with not only the build but why to build. You can hate on both, but they both enjoy what they are playing.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I'll reiterate too, I LIKE character customization. I wish FFXIV would do more to differentiate people of the same job. I'd like some kind of specialization system to emphasize different playstyles. But I object to false choices.

As a NIN main, maybe I could choose to emphasize my DoT gameplay and have a specialization that revolves around DoTs and getting bonuses when I manage those correctly. Maybe I could have one that emphasizes positional gameplay, adding more positional requirements to my abilities and providing commensurate bonuses when I execute that properly. But whichever one of those I choose, they'd have to be roughly the same in terms of performance. Then it really is a playstyle choice.

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/Throws money at Callinon. Get on the dev team and make it happen, it is sorely needed.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

It's narrow-minded to assume everyone has that option. A lot of people can barely afford time for one MMO and those people (myself included) chose FFXIV over other games for very real reasons (like my wife not being a typical gamer but enjoying XIV). Merits or no merits, it's not unthinkable to let people wish/request systems inspired by features they enjoyed in previous games.

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I don't think that I said anywhere that I assumed everyone agreed with me. I was asked for what I wanted and that's what I posted. Obviously everyone has their own opinions.

It's been said in this thread that merits were really a stop gap for capping real progression at level 75. XP was a brutal grind in FFXI - hour after hour of XP parties to barely get a single level. Merits just extended that mechanic. A real grind fest.

I would prefer developers spend their time developing content within the framework of FFXIV's game design. Keep the vertical progression and accelerate the release of new dungeons, raids, recipes and fun side quests (like Hildebrand).

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

I don't think that I said anywhere that I assumed everyone agreed with me. I was asked for what I wanted and that's what I posted. Obviously everyone has their own opinions.

It's been said in this thread that merits were really a stop gap for capping real progression at level 75. XP was a brutal grind in FFXI - hour after hour of XP parties to barely get a single level. Merits just extended that mechanic. A real grind fest.

I would prefer developers spend their time developing content within the framework of FFXIV's game design. Keep the vertical progression and accelerate the release of new dungeons, raids, recipes and fun side quests (like Hildebrand).

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Yeah but XI had a mix of horizontal and vertical progression which is what made it really feel like you accomplished something and also gave you (the player) the ability to do lots of different things. The problem with only vertical progression is number bloat (see: World of Warcraft's big number nerfing) While it really didn't impact any of the game besides readjusting how much damage was dealt out it did make players feel weaker. I know we cannot change gear but currently this game offers one thing: grind for one set of gear as its the best no questions asked. Have you (hypothetical) ever stopped and truly asked why SE implemented a cap/limit on gear rewarding? You might say well its to prevent people from gearing up too quickly, and while you are right you are deluding the response, trying not to be honest with yourself (again hypothetical you). The real honest answer is this: They put a cap/limit on gear rewarding because if you were to obtain all the gear in the game faster than intended you would realize there is NOTHING else to do in the game that would really utilize said gear besides making the hardest content easier--note I say 'easier' and not 'possible' as its possible to complete Savage Alexander without Savage Alexander gear.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not unhappy with game, its quite the opposite and the reason why I am suggesting things for the game; as without change to the formula this game will go stagnant and they will lose subscriptions. Horizontal progression of some kind is needed in this game and currently they don't offer any besides leveling up.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

I don't think that I said anywhere that I assumed everyone agreed with me. I was asked for what I wanted and that's what I posted. Obviously everyone has their own opinions.

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You did say:

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

I do not want FFXIV to become FFXI. You can play that game if you wish. I left it behind years ago.

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And that sentiment implies the assumption that everyone has that option.

Merits also had the function of making you focus to a degree on a handful of jobs even if you leveled everything, so there's that.

The purpose for weekly caps is obvious. Slow progress down in the game so that you subscribe longer. Frankly, that is the purpose of each and every feature of the game. SE is running a business after all.

I would much rather have development investment put into accelerating the design and release of new dungeons, raids and story content instead of developing new subscription holding grind fests. We have more than enough of that now. Just ask crafters what they think of the new scrip system.

FFXI was the absolute king of grinding. XP. Merits. HNMs, Relics - My God, Relics - a system that required an entire LS to focus weekly efforts FOR OVER A YEAR to get a weapon for One member (Dynamis).

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Originally Posted by Saggo

And that sentiment implies the assumption that everyone has that option.

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Reading comprehension must not be your strong point. How can me saying that I want something be interpreted as a belief that everyone has that opinion.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Reading comprehension must not be your strong point.

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Neat, so we're just jumping straight to the insult-the-other-person part of the argument.

Waeksyn, you fail to point out that that one weapon that took a year or so to get was the one weapon you would have FOREVER because like in previous FF titles, your Legendary Weapon was the best weapon for ever and always. Its the one thing about FFXIV that I abhor is that my Relic/Legendary weapon is nothing more than a glamour piece not even 5 weeks into the expansion.

I should also like to note that things like HNMs are more equivalent to Raids (as XI didn't really have instanced zones save for some of the newest stuff and BCNMs) and you really didn't have to grind all that much to get a lot of that gear if you were in a group. The thing that made XI feel like it was a big long grind in the endgame (save for Merits and Exp) was that EVERYTHING required an alliance of 18 people at least to do, and in many cases there were usually more people to assist on the sidelines, switching people in and out of parties for their 2hr abilities and the such. There was a much more strategic play involved which in turn slowed the game down as not everyone in those much needed groups could play every day.

And again you cushion the blow that really cripples this game with your answer. They slow the game down because after you get the gear there is literally nothing you NEED to do to progress, in fact there is NOTHING else you CAN do to progress besides level up another job to 60 if you haven't maxed them yet.

As for the scrip system, its not a grind fest; its just a very poorly designed system where you trade a currency for another form of currency to trade for a chance to obtain an item to trade for another item, all on top of a 1st currency weekly cap. The problem isn't the grind its the compounding of currency to create an overtly tedious process that is unnecessary. All they would need to do to fix the whole problem is to remove the currency into currency conversion and the system while still unnecessarily complex would at least make it manageable. But that is another thing altogether.

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Originally Posted by Saggo

Neat, so we're just jumping straight to the insult-the-other-person part of the argument.

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Not jumping there. I don't believe that I was the one originally accusing the other of being narrow minded.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Not jumping there. I don't believe that I was the one originally accusing the other of being narrow minded.

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Also by telling someone they can go play a different game (XI) because the game we all are playing (XIV) shouldn't be like the other game (XI) is in fact suggesting a form of 'goading'. There is no constructiveness in the sentence that was quoted above in another post of yours. It was implied-or at the very least could be taken as--that "if you like XI then go play XI and leave my XIV alone". Which can be taken as a dismissive remark. Just saying, I think his reading comprehension was on point as I thought the same thing but decided against commenting on such dismissive remarks.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Also by telling someone they can go play a different game (XI) because the game we all are playing (XIV) shouldn't be like the other game (XI) is in fact suggesting a form of 'goading'. There is no constructiveness in the sentence that was quoted above in another post of yours. It was implied-or at the very least could be taken as--that "if you like XI then go play XI and leave my XIV alone". Which can be taken as a dismissive remark. Just saying, I think his reading comprehension was on point as I thought the same thing but decided against commenting on such dismissive remarks.

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That was not implied. It was directly stated.

In my view (yours may differ) I would not appreciate having some of the things that I found to be the worst elements of FFXI (your view may differ) added to a game that I currently enjoy. Again, I still don't see anywhere in my post that suggests that my opinion ( I used the word "I") was to be taken as the viewpoint that everyone holds. If I meant that, I would have written something else.

That said, there were elements of FFXI that I did enjoy. The best thing ever released for that game IMO (you may differ) was CoP. A great story, compelling characters, wicked difficulty (before it was nerfed) and spectacular new locations that in themselves were a challenge (navigating Hu' Xzoi). I've never had a game experience before or since that matched the feeling I got when I completed it. See? Story, dungeons, challenge. not mindless grinding.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Not jumping there. I don't believe that I was the one originally accusing the other of being narrow minded.

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Very well, let's break it down.

You don't want FFXIV to be FFXI (first statement). I can clearly infer you assume the previous thread participants want FFXIV to be FFXI, since you're countering with the inverse. So go play that game, we're told, in a statement I, again clearly, infer is directly related to the previous statement.

Thus a perfectly acceptable reaction is to see you think we want this to be FFXI and we should just go play that game if that's what we want.

The assumption I made is that you assume everyone has the option, if they want said features, to just play the game with those features (not sure where you get this "belief that everyone has that opinion" stuff). Admittedly not the strongest assumption, but not so crazy of a leap to make given you just told everyone to go play FFXI and gave no reason for the contrary.

It is, according to Merriam and good ole Webster, an unwillingness to accept others behaviors that differ from your own when you tell them to just go play FFXI, if we want systems from it, because (like I said) people have their reasons for playing one MMO and making it FFXIV.

So no. I didn't insult you. And yes, I was verbose and loquacious to get the point across.

When it comes to Merits themself, yes, it was a stopgap to leveling in FFXI. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, given that some of the complaints for Heavensward is increasing the level cap caused problems. Merits allow for vertical growth and also allow for some horizontal growth, given that developers have complete control over what they could do, versus a pretty static set of rules a level up has. It has a lot more potential than just being an extension of leveling.

You beat me to the post, Saggo.

So, I was not insulted by being accused of being narrow minded because you can quote a dictionary? I stand behind my statement that you have reading comprehension issues given the way that you interpreted my very clear writing. Stating an opinion should not be interpreted as suggesting that EVERYONE has that opinion unless is is specifically stated. Please don't be insulted.

Look, you can continue to be nostalgic about FFXI as much as you want. There were some great features in that game (such as CoP as in my previous post). Grind fests such as merits was not one of the ones that I enjoyed and would not enjoy it being ported into this, currently very well balanced, game.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

So, I was not insulted by being accused of being narrow minded because you can quote a dictionary?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

Stating an opinion should not be interpreted as suggesting that EVERYONE has that opinion unless is is specifically stated.

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Seriously, where are you getting this?