Vote kick option MUST be removed.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

It should not show who initiate a kick.
If it shows WHO initiates and the kick fails, it is predictable the first one being kick will then try to kick the initiator ^^;
As a result, most likely after the kick those ppl will start chat PvP and kick war, it will make the situation worse.

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...And then party would end up vote kicking both members... you think people are this stupid? The party is like a jury, your on trial, and when the jury says "not guilty" you turn around and retaliate, making that jury realize they made a mistake, which they quickly remedy. How often have you seen two people actually go at each other w/ the vote kick option in this game? I've never have heard of it happening. It's silly.

Tell you what... let's try my idea first, and see what happens. Right now the vote kick system is leaving everyone in the dark. I'd think we'd all agree.

Maybe I have been lucky, I don't know ......but I rarely if ever see vote kick abuse. The only times I have participated in (or witnessed) a vote kick was because the player was afk/offline, was trolling/harassing, or requested to be kicked.

I have personally never been kicked.

I find it hard to believe that someone who was kicked 3 times was completely innocent each and every time. It requires a majority vote, so one person alone can't abuse it. If you're kicked, either multiple group members agree or you are traveling with a pair of trolls.

While I am sure that some abuse happens on occasion, in my experience it is used properly far more than it is abused.

Also, big bold capital letters are a terrible way to get people to take you seriously. Posting in obnoxious ways really only makes you look incapable of conveying your thoughts properly. I don't know the OP, but the post gives me the impression that they are irrational and might have possibly deserved a vote kick based on their behavior.

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Originally Posted by ZombieProof

Also a lot of people will click yes regardless to initiated what/why.

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You can't say this since we don't know the results of the vote. Could be that no one clicked either yes and no and it goes thru cuz the only vote that's registered is the person who instigated it.

And why doesn't the person being vote kicked get to click yes or no? Sure, they would almost always click "no" unless they're afk, in which they'd abstain once the after the 45 second count down finishes. And if they aren't they could use those 45 seconds to ask "why?" before clicking. I do not expect people to give a reason when they vote... but being forced to be asked why your kicking someone will illicit a response.

I think this is the best solution, along w/ including the person who initiated the vote kick. It would still allow one player to kick three afk party members, as it is now. And it would balance the yes vote generated by the kicker. Besides what good is a vote unless everyone get's a say.

I don't think I've ever seen the vote kick system used period. :O

(Also, I'm really, really skeptical of the "I didn't do or say anything and gosh, I just got kicked for no reason" stories.)

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I find it hard to believe that someone who was kicked 3 times was completely innocent each and every time. It requires a majority vote, so one person alone can't abuse it. If you're kicked, either multiple group members agree or you are traveling with a pair of trolls.

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In a four person party, just one person needs to click yes for the vote kick to succeed, making the vote tally 2/1. And when your kicked, which you say you have not, you get absolutely no warning. You don't see a vote kick window like the other members. You are never told that there's a vote kick. The screen just goes black and you see the message "You've been dismissed from the duty." in the log window. Imagine if you we're doing a run, no one says a thing, and then screen just goes black? How would you feel? It's like a slap on the face and you don't know what you did deserve it. Your going to be a little peeved...

And how do you know that you never had some attempt to vote kick you? It's possible someone tried and it failed. You wouldn't see any indication unless someone in the party explicitly stated you had been.

It's a really dumb system... thankfully it's not used that often... most people aren't jerks.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

In a four person party, just one person needs to click yes for the vote kick to succeed, making the vote tally 2/1. And when your kicked, which you say you have not, you get absolutely no warning.

And how do you know that you never had some attempt to vote kick you? It's possible someone tried and it failed. You wouldn't see any indication unless someone in the party explicitly stated you had been.

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That still means that in a group of 4 people, 2 of them think you are worth kicking. Again, I am not claiming that is is never abused, however I don't believe it i's a game-breaking problem. I do think that people being kicked often should take some time to reflect on the reasons why they might be getting kicked rather than blaming everyone else.

As for me, I never claimed that no one ever tried to kick me from a group. However, I have played the game since launch and have never successfully been kicked from a group whether it was attempted or not. If one player feels I should be removed, yet others do not feel the same then it would not pass. I have only seen Vote Kick used appropriately in situations that warranted removing a player from the group.

So, in my experience vote kick abuse is non-existent. If others have had different experiences and feel differently, then that is their prerogative to do so. But, as I said before I think players who claim to be kicked so often that they feel abused might need to be more realistic about why it is happening.

Actually I think showing who instigated a vote or who voted how would be an awful, awful idea. Because in WoW, before vote kick was added, it was always very obvious who kicked you. And I've seen and experienced a lot of trolling from people who were angry about that.

People tend to lose their cool extremely easily online, especially in games.

I think in 4 man "levelling" roulettes, you need a full 3 vote. Too many times I see 3 synced, plus 1 unsynced, and after a few learning mistakes someone invariably decides to kick, and someone else always seems to agree. End result is I end up feeling bad for the new guy.

Really, if you don't want to show some patience towards a newer player, don't do the levelling roulette. Same with Main Scenario. If you don't have the patience to put up with tank/heals who are learning, just don't do it.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

I think in 4 man "levelling" roulettes, you need a full 3 vote. Too many times I see 3 synced, plus 1 unsynced, and after a few learning mistakes someone invariably decides to kick, and someone else always seems to agree. End result is I end up feeling bad for the new guy.

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I've seen it when there weren't even any mistakes. While leveling ninja, I was in a low level dungeon with an arcanist. He was the only one of us on-level, but he was doing fine and the run was going perfectly smooth. About half-way through a vote-kick window popped up for no apparent reason. I voted no, but the healer and tank must have both agreed because the arcanist was kicked out. My guess is that the healer was hoping for 2 DoW damage dealers so that he could be guaranteed any DoM gear drops. (Not sure whether the tank was a friend of his or just one of those idiots who will vote "Yes" for no reason besides the vote window popping up.) I was rather glad that our replacement DD turned out to be another arcanist, but it still sucks for that first guy we had.


p.s. Does everyone else's spell-checker keep trying to turn "arcanist" into "anarchist"? Seems like the seed of a fan-fic in there somehow.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Even a group is 4 man, but logically it would be 3ppl consider kicking 1ppl,
with that said, it would be a vote within 3ppl decision, as a result, 2ppl doesn't mean the half, it means 2/3 ^^;

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I assume you meant to quote my other post where I said 51% should agree on kick rather than 50% or less. And I must say thank you for nitpicking where it is not necessary. Note though that I did not say 50% of three is two. I said there is an issue in 4 man groups because if you queue up with a friend you basically decides everything in the group. Meaning you could kick both the other players should you wish.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Even a group is 4 man, but logically it would be 3ppl consider kicking 1ppl,
with that said, it would be a vote within 3ppl decision, as a result, 2ppl doesn't mean the half, it means 2/3 ^^;

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But it should require a majority of the party, not just a majority of the remaining people besides yourself. Consider a 4-man dungeon in which two players want to do a full run and two want to race ahead and skip everything they can. The majority of the party has vote-kick authority, but which side is the "majority" when it's two against two? As it currently stands, it's simply whoever clicks the "Kick" button first who therefore qualifies as a majority even though half the party disagrees with them. You shouldn't be able to act as a majority and kick whoever disagrees with you if you're not in fact in the majority. In a two against two situation, neither side should be able to make unilateral decisions like that.

If you think that removing a kick is a grand idea, then you'll love running leeches, grievers, trolls, and AFK'er thru things, like in Destiny.

Also all that's required to kick someone in a 4 man party is the player who started the vote and one other player, meaning whomever the third wheel is has no say in the matter.

That's not right, and it shouldn't be like that. It's easily abused because of it too.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

This is not a debate.

I am not going to argue. My point is already made.

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So why should anyone care? You believe yourself to be correct, others disagree, if you ignore the others who don't agree with you however you're only going to make it so that no one wants to listen to you in the first place. Perhaps you could make coherent arguments as to why it should be removed, who knows, you only repeat the same rhetoric over and over again whilst failing to be open to opposition. Just some advice, if you want changes to be made then you need to be open to changes in terms of what you think should be done. Remaining stalwart in your position even when facing overwhelming opposition is fine, but ignoring criticism of ideas whilst maintaining a position, is a fool's errand.

All of that said...

I think it's fine as it is. Sometimes, you have 3 people working together just fine, happily doing a dungeon, then you have 1 person who's just being a douche. I've had many a party here someone would just stand around and watch while the other 3 fight a group of mobs just because that 1 person doesn't want to do a full clear. Does it help them? No, its stupid and slows down everyone's run even further but with no benefit what so ever. If I'm able, I want to kick that guy, they're slowing us down, refusing to participate, but are in the party all the same. Saying they'll get kicked is false, they fight every mob you HAVE to fight, but when you go on side paths they just stand and wait. It has happened more than 3 times, and that's the number you present to show you're justified in your request, so mine should be equally as valid, no?

There are also times you get in a party and 1 person, regardless of how well they're doing or how good they are, will start shit with the other members. I am not talking about constructive criticism, I'm not talking about explaining a failure to adhere to mechanics, I am talking about straight up saying everyone sucks and whining about it as the dungeon progresses. I don't think there's a problem with kicking such individuals should the other 3 agree that they want this person removed. I personally don't like people being assholes for the sake of being assholes, and yet some people do just that. Why should I not be able to kick these people? Why should I be forced to deal with their attitude whilst I run a dungeon rather than kick them? If the party agrees they should go, I say they should be able to be kicked.

Now, I'm not unsympathetic to your argument. Upon the expansions release there was a bit of bias against MCH and many complained about being kicked strictly because they were MCHs. This type of situation shows that it can easily be abused for the worst reasons. I admit this and I wish it weren't happening, but honestly there's not a lot you can do. Anything and everything has some way it could be abused, you can abuse tells and shouts to spam people or to promote RMT, should we rid ourselves of those features? No, because the abuse is unavoidable and reporting people is the only way around it that doesn't involve lowering the quality of the game. It's the same situation here, you have to remove something to fix a small abuse problem, but it's not worth it, so we have to simply go on knowing the potential for abuse and reporting those who do abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

This is not a debate.

I am not going to argue. My point is already made.

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Welcome to the FFXIV discussion forums.

If you don't want to hear opposing views and debate your position, start your own blog, disable the comments, and post your large-font rants there instead.

The overwhelming opinion is that the grief vote kick saves us from is worth the occasional abuse of the system we have to endure. Legitimate vote-kick abuse is a reportable offense, although I would say the 7 players in your castrum run have a decent case for claiming they kicked you for harassment.

I think we should keep vote kick so that we can kick people like the OP out of groups. If he acts this way in duty it's no wonder he was vote kicked. If you ran in ahead of me pulling the boss while I was tanking I'd kick you too. The whole "This is not a debate" nonsense, no one cares. Just like we "MUST" end vote kick because random person on the internet says we have to. How about no. As far as I'm concerned vote kick is useful for ejecting people like.... you. I've been playing this game a year and a half and have never been vote kicked once. People aren't kicking you for no reason, maybe you should try and be a little more respectful towards your fellow players and it won't be an issue.

I'm sure you all remember pre-vote kick, when one would enter a castrum run only to see 60%of the players afk in an attempt to leech those precious tomestones of philosophy. Or perhaps the endless parade of trolls that would run in and lock everyone out of the final boss fight until the instance timer ran out. Or maybe even those players who (possibly by no fault of their own) used a less than optimal connection and dced after thirty seconds only to return 5 to 10 minutes later and dc again, determined to finish Amdapor Keep because they had queued for 3 hours.

Yes, the vote kick function is abused. I have been a victim of this myself. However, I have legitimately utilized this function enough in so that the comparably few instances of abuse do not in any way take away from my gratitude for the feature's implementation. The benefits severely outweigh the abuse.

This RED, this BOLD.... waaaah ! quite an abuse too, if you ask me.

I have never seen the Vote Kick option abused. In every event I've ever seen it used personally, it was completely justified.. Players offline/players harassing

I'm not saying that it doesn't get abused, I'm just saying that in my experience (several hundred instances) vote kick has been completely fine. Saying that it MUST be removed is stupid. Then saying it's not a debate, while deciding that you're right and everyone else wrong is also stupid.

With that kind of attitude its not hard to imagine why people would vote kick you... You only list your side of the story but, with the manner in which you present it its not hard to figure out theirs.

I have been kicked once for inefficient heals, we were at the end, and I was healing fine no deaths no nothing. The tank initiated it and the dps blindly agreed. I know because the two dps were from my server and when we met they told me they just did it without thought, they apologized and said they eventually voted abandon because no healers ever made it. It wasn't too bad, the tank just thought I sucked, and it made me upset but I got over it. I befriended the dps and they said my healing was just slow so I worked on it. Yeah it sucked being kicked but hey I wasn't doing my job, so in the end it was my fault. The kick system can backfire but really its not terrible.

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Originally Posted by Yunona

Yeah it sucked being kicked but hey I wasn't doing my job, so in the end it was my fault.

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No it wasn't. There's a reason "underperforming" isn't an option for the reasons to initiate a vote kick.

And really, if no one died throughout the run then you were doing your job. Could you have done better at it (in whatever capacity that is - keeping people topped up more? Being more MP efficient so the group doesn't need to wait for your MP before pulling a boss? Throwing some dps in?) Possibly. Is it appropriate to vote kick someone who is putting in effort and performing at a level that gets through the content but not to another person's personal standards? Of course not. That's what educating and helping the player to get better is for. Now if they staunchly refuse to try, there might be a case for it.

On topic: I've seen vote kick used to remove offline players and get a replacement often enough that I know how much it would suck not to have that option. Sometimes it's just necessary to keep a run going, regrettable though it may be. And I've had one or two occasions where there was one really toxic player we needed to be rid of (though there was one memorable occasion prior to the update where the player just kept coming back in over and over again - thank goodness that doesn't keep happening.) I would like to see it changed so the kicked person is at least given the reason for the kick. The one time I've been vote kicked, I have no clue why - everything was proceeding completely as normal and no one said anything at any point in the run.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

This party did not do that, and i only noticed no one was with me in the boss fight and i tried to leave but was locked out, they responded "Have fun" so i assume it was ok to solo the boss, which i successfully did, then after asking

"So why did we choose to fight the trash again?" was told "no lockouts" and i said "so?" and "just burn the boss?" and then was told "bye" and vote kicked.

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Because this is the BEST example of you wanting to work as a team. You blow through & pay little attention to everyone but yourself, & then get snarky at the rest of the group after showing off, & expect us to agree that they CLEARLY didn't want to work as a team with you?

How about communicating before you rush to the boss? Heck, your attitude towards everyone in this thread is a poor example of you being willing to work things out in general. If your attitude is as bad in there as it is here, you DESERVE to be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

If i am continuously kicked for little to no reason such as these i will also choose to quit playing this game as this is not acceptable, and the system should be removed.

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Oh, also:

https://33.media.tumblr.com/4bf0dbe5...odz7o1_400.gif

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Originally Posted by PirateCat

No it wasn't. There's a reason "underperforming" isn't an option for the reasons to initiate a vote kick.

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Actually, Yoshi has said that people can vote kick for "differing playstyles" and that's one of the issues that was cited in the discussion as a "differing playstyle" The vote kick option absolutely can be used to remove a team member who is holding the team back and causing you to fail content or otherwise making the run harder. It sucks being the one on the receiving end of that kick, but it's not fair to expect 3-7 other players to carry you, either.

I've honestly never been vote kicked, if you are being vote kicked so often, the problem might not be with the system.

I think we can see why you've been vote kicked.

funny thing happened to me yesterday on my last WoD run (to get AST poetics weap), i got kicked for DPSing as a SCH. requeued and joined the same group that kicked me. was told i should not dps (doing so on down times and not forgetting about heals) since i am a healer and they got the deeps to clear. not a single death though and was going smoothly. i guess some guys just want them DPS numbers to be all them in parsers....

I thought you could't be rejoining the same party that 'd kicked you since last patch ? Doesn't that apply for alliances ? O_o

Can't join the same party immediately afterwards. I think there is a timer and in ideal situation you get someone else to fill the spot. But not a lot of people are queuing to the raids.