Oh god, DKs!

check to see if they're in Vit gear,
through sheer numbers a bigger HP pool means they can take more hits before giving the healer a heart attack.

I'm just going to chime in here to say, that the worst tank I have ever had to heal, even more than the DRK in Bard gear in Brayflox, was a Paladin. Between his i100 gear and STR accessories, he had no cushion, and no defense, to survive a Sohm Al.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I find that I take more damage on purpose because I can stay out of grit longer.

I find this to be a fair tradeoff. The point of healers is to heal, after all. As long as I am not making the healer panic I don't feel anything is wrong with being squishy.

99% of tanking is gear as well - if you don't have the armor you're going to get hit for a lot regardless.

Even if DRK had a shield that is less than 10% mitigation vs autoattacks...not even close to noticeable. And its cooldowns are almost identical to the ones PLD has.

So I would wager its

1. Undergeared.
2. Not using grit when he should
3. Personal bias.

NOT anything to do with DRK as a class.

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With that mind set it would be ok to heal you in cleric stance. I'm still doing my job.

As a DRK (and DPS scum observing DRKs), the key to surviving as DRK is burning CDs. A DRK that isn't at least lighting off dark dance every pull is going to make his healer very sad, and I can only vouch for myself as a DRK that uses dark mind on heavy magic pulls (ice sprite ambushes in stone vigil normal).

tl;dr: DRKs are mainly played by bads, and it's very likely that your healing isn't the problem.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

As a DRK (and DPS scum observing DRKs), the key to surviving as DRK is burning CDs. A DRK that isn't at least lighting off dark dance every pull is going to make his healer very sad, and I can only vouch for myself as a DRK that uses dark mind on heavy magic pulls (ice sprite ambushes in stone vigil normal).

tl;dr: DRKs are mainly played by bads, and it's very likely that your healing isn't the problem.

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Yep, lots of bad DRKs pretty much. Stingy with cooldown use and/or not understand the best ones to use for the situation. Delirium, Dark Arts+Dark Mind is better than any of the other tanks for mitigating magic damage and it's so good.

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

With that mind set it would be ok to heal you in cleric stance. I'm still doing my job.

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Sure, if cleric stance simply did 20% less healing.

Suck it up and heal your tank.

Unless they are literally dying faster than you can heal just view it as a challenge and a way to become a better healer.

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to tank - there is simply tradeoffs.

Is 30% more dps worth it for 20% more damage taken? The vast majority of the time, the answer is yes.

Dark Dance is horrendous.

You guys realize it is 5% damage reduction right?

Like...literally unnoticeable.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Sure, if cleric stance simply did 20% less healing.

Suck it up and heal your tank.

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Actually healers do much less healing in cleric stance as it swaps both their int and your mnd. So not only do they now have around 200 mnd, but the heal potency is also dropped 20%.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Unless they are literally dying faster than you can heal just view it as a challenge and a way to become a better healer.

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It is a collaborative project. It is not just about becoming a better healer/dps/tank. It is about becoming a better team. If a tank pulls 2 groups of mobs and they do not use any cooldowns, have their tanking stance off, and this causes a wipe. It is not just because the healer is bad. They are part of a 4 man team clearing a dungeon. Working together is part of the game. If the tank refuses to turn on their tank stance and use cooldowns when pulling multiple groups then that is a detriment to the team as a whole and not working together. This will usually cause the party to dissolve rather quickly.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to tank - there is simply tradeoffs.

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There are correct and incorrect ways to tank. If a tank is not able to hold aggro when not in tank stance, then they are causing issues for the group. The same with rotating cooldowns so that the tank always have something going in to the next pull, or certain cooldowns for a specific boss fight that is next. The tanks job is to hold threat off of everyone else and be as survivable as possible. There is no reason be snide about being a tank, it is simply another role to assist with finishing a dungeon or trial or general task.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Is 30% more dps worth it for 20% more damage taken? The vast majority of the time, the answer is yes.

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Grit does not just lower your damage by 20% and increase your mitigation to damage by 20%. It also increases your accuracy by 5% and also increasing your enmity gain. So you end up hurting yourself more by not being in grit. You make yourself take more healing which creates more enmity for the healer. If you are holding aggro off DPS classes without grit then they are either terribly undergeared or not trying to do damage. It is very similar to paladin tanking before you get shield oath, with the only difference being you have a shield oath and are not using it.

The job of a tank is to hold enmity - I mean I thought that was a given.

Aside from that they are a dps, simply with more emphasis on defensive cds and less on offensive ones.

So when I say its worth it to do more dps, I mean as a given that we will be holding aggro.

And yes, the reason I brought up cleric stance was the ridiculous strawman argument someone else posted about how me staying out of grit is just as bad as him trying to heal in cleric...lol

It certainly is collaborative. So get to know your tank.

No, the job of a tank is to hold enmity AND mitigate the amount of unnecessary damage they take. If you're purposefully not doing one of those two things, then you're not doing your job as a tank.

We would probably have to disagree at this point.

If a tank is taking damage and not getting more dps out of it, then this is a mistake.

But I see no reason why you should not stay out of grit as long as possible unless

1. Healers are OOM or spend too many GCDs so they let other people die (this is a raid dps loss)
2. You are gonna get one shot
3. You can't do dps but will take damage (like boss disconnects + nukes)

If there a real desire for damage then a tank mitigating more damage and allowing a healer to even do something as simple as put their dots on a boss or AoE a group of mobs a few times is worth more damage overall than the tank dancing out of their tanking stance to do a little more damage. The dots on my astrologian while they are up can deal 300ish DPS while they are up which is worth more than 30% more damage for a duration on any tank class that is both taking damage and trying to deal it. In the end it is much better if the tank keeps their tanking stance on to mitigate damage than attempt to do a little more damage that a healer can easily make up for with just dots.

It's subjective to what your "job" is beyond

Tanks: keep enmity
Healers: keep all alive
DPS: kill crap

Outside of that, it's whatever helps increase party/raid-wide DPS. If a full turtle tank and a DPS-stance healer does that, so be it. If a DPS-stance tank and a HPS-focused healer does that, then it's all the same.