I thought Heavensward was an MMORNG?
How many of us can be bothered with the endgame crafting
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08-07-2015, 11:16 PMscarebearz
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08-08-2015, 02:21 AMAeyisrpg is all about customization. Of stats, of character. RPG isnt about playing a random character in a story as you see to use its defination. Its about making (and customizing) your own character, in a story or other setting; deciding the characters decisions on the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder
We have no input in the story. We have no input in what stats we give our character (is our character strong, smart? nimble?).
We are locked into classes (jobs) and cant even choose skills to take, its all preset.
And as far as item creation goes all we do is make preset recipes. Cant even name them either.
It's like playing larpg and all your options are: warrior, mage, rogue. No stats based on race, or rolls, or choices made.
And when the DM gives you an option your only choice is ""do you continue the game or not''.
How incredibly none rpg, how incredibly dull. -
08-08-2015, 05:29 AMRoth_Trailfinder
Nah man, RPG has nothing to do with customization. You can customize your favorite teams in any sports game, that does not make them RPG's. I can create custom characters in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms games, but that does not make those games RPG's either.
You can create your party in The Bard's Tale trilogy, the Gold Box series, you can create your character in The Elder Scrolls (depending on the game, you can only customize to a point) but that customization is not what makes those games RPG's. You do not customize your party in FF4, are you saying that's not a RPG? Shining in the Darkness, Phantasy Star, are you saying those are not RPG's because your party is set for you, and you have little to no choice in your party makeup, little to no choice in their skills, and only a very linear gear upgrade path?
To use another example, two of my favorite games of all : Lunar, and Lunar 2. There is no customization in those games - Hiro is always going to be a melee character, Nash is never going to be your party's tank, yet those two are most definitely RPG's. The lack of customization says nothing to or against them being RPG's.
Customization is in many games. Its presence or lack thereof does not affect the genre a game is in. I stand by my statement : RPG != Customization. -
08-08-2015, 05:51 AMChasteDaily
This whole scrip/favor system feel like they found two interns, locked them in a room full of meth, Red Bull and a whiteboard. After a week this is what they came up with.
Intern 1: First we should make people go gather a lot of materials and then they make stuff.
Intern 2: Yea, and then they take that stuff and give it to a guy. That guy will give em a scrip!
Intern 1: Where did we put the meth?
Intern 2: Over there spaz. Then they take the scrip and give it to another guy.
Intern 1: Awesome!!!!! And that guy gives them a TOKEN! <slurp>
Intern 2: Man we rock at this. We are gonna run this place some day!
Intern 1: Do we have more meth? Um...I mean party favors?
Intern 2: Favors? Yes! Then they give the tokens to this other guy who gives them favors! You are a genius!
Intern 1: And the favors give you energy, so you have to run around outside for like an hour or something and maybe you win a prize. You should also have to swing an axe or something.
Intern 2: What if they could trade the prizes for more stuff?
Intern 1: Dude! You are a genius. But even better, what if they traded the prizes with more TOKENs for stuff?
Intern 2: Even better. -
08-08-2015, 05:57 AMNomad-phxthats not true, i just started getting my 2 star on, gather all my own ooids/botanist items/red crafter-gatherer scrips and still go to work 5 days a week and raid. spending my limited time amongst these things doesnt influence me to feel the need to ask for 30-40mil per item. maybe the REAL gripe crafters have is the fact that 3.0 isnt bot friendly so all the RMT bots from 2.0 that kept the materials plentiful/cheap arent here thus no week-1 100million per item marketboard dominance that was pretty easy before 3.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katlyna
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08-08-2015, 06:43 AMseorinMost of us actually value our time, but this system is great for you if you enjoy working long hours for minimal compensation. If I wanted more of that, I'd just clock in some extra hours at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad-phx
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08-08-2015, 06:13 PMPhenidateGot me to give up on bothering with crafting/gathering. I'm looking at all these more-hardcore-than-me DoH/DoLs upset with how things are, and here I am with a fresh BTN. I'm not going to waste weeks and weeks just so I can get some gear to grind mats for crafters crafting gear for crafters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mature
The whole thing sounds fucked up, and I'd rather spend my time elsewhere than get into this mess. Playing as a DoM I'm self sufficient as is for all my needs for the content I'm doing, and my retainers bring in enough money to buy what consumables I need as is.
Fuck red scrips. Fuck favors. Fuck this. I don't even know why I bothered leveling a DoL if this is what the endgame is like. -
08-08-2015, 11:13 PMYumi_umi
What if the new relic had a crafting step in it again. Servers would implode from all the grinding lol. Oh well hopefully enough ppl unsub so SE can open their eyes and go oops like they did with fcob and crafted melded gear.
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08-09-2015, 08:50 AMdspguySounds like they already did that with the i125 relics and the random dungeon drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by andreopalomino
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08-10-2015, 02:56 AMAeyisJust imagine all the topics in general:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumi_umi
''omg this new relic quest sucks. need items and there are none or they sell for millions.''
''Really? I asked my friend to help me make the new relic items and she said she can only make 1 per week because she cant get more scrips per week. And we need 99. What gives?'' -
08-10-2015, 05:13 AMMancub22
I really enjoyed 2.x but I've now cancelled my subscription and wont re-up. Crafting and gathering was a party but in 3.0 it has become less about having fun and more about SE trying to lure people back month after month to grind this dull, repetitive, boring content.
Oh and 100's of new ingredients but still only 2 retainers is just pathetic. (unless you want to spend 2$ a month for additional ones, *cough pay to win*)
SE has become greedy and it might be costing them a good chunk of their subscribers. -
08-10-2015, 06:18 AMDeuceI don't believe SE will lose a significant number of subscribers over this, at least not enough in the near future to care. However, if these design philosophies continue to be prevalent then I could see it negatively impacting their overall subscription numbers. It should be interesting to see how this impacts the supply and demand side of each server's economy because I know several crafters who are unhappy with this system that are reconsidering their subscription, myself included. This means there are quite a few players that rely on our services to make them items who will no longer have that option available to them. I'm sure there will be new people to take our places no doubt, but it will be interesting to see how everything shifts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mancub22
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08-10-2015, 06:52 PMKsenia
I think people forget the end game in 2.00 and how it wasn't really any better there. I ignored it then and thought this might be a good time to try because I can get potash for a song.
468 craft
405 control
Lv 53 weaver.
Trying to get 3 HQ Intricate Brocades for the Master II book. 4 tries, 1 HQ. I never broke 50% HQ and fluked the one I got.
With the turn in on NQ fails for 1 Demimateria III
Back then people would have had to deal with low supply crawler cocoons, dungeon farmed pot ash through tomestone turn in, demimateria desynth grind, Materia over melding to get the stats I have now.
FF14 'end game crafting' has always been power grind through the nose.
I'll stick the one HQ I have now in a retainer and try again when I have 60 and stats that should wipe the HQ bar. As for red scripts?
See you in FF14 4.00 a realm regrinded. -
08-10-2015, 07:50 PMYumi_umiThere was a decent market for those crafting materials and even the casual adventurer can sell them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
But in 3.0 if ur not a 60 gatherer u can forget about trying anything.
No red scrips = no supply
Thats y 3.0 made ppl like me salty -
08-11-2015, 03:22 AMAlahraBack then, the result of the grind was being able to craft or gather things that were high in demand and additionally low in supply. The various starred items of ARR were useful and desirable. The way forward also wasn't gated by an artificial lockout--you could grind as casually or as furiously as you wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
Now, we're unable to craft/progress at our own pace, materials are scarce, and the "rewards" at the end of the grind are by and large meaningless. That's why the HW system is a problem when compared to the ARR one which, although not perfect, still functioned in a meaningful, rewarding way. -
08-11-2015, 04:50 AMAeyisThat is my sentiment as well. Altho a watered down version of 1.0's crafting system; it still held my interest in comparison to HW's system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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08-12-2015, 10:23 AMKseniaI don't quite remember it that way. I remember crafted 50 being 30 to 50 iLevels below reward stuff and all the tomestones coming from the same places, making crafted gear outside crafting an objective you had to go out of your way to do and with lesser gear. I remember people bickering over an over melded wrist slot or an earring slot knowing main and off hand, all body were going to be NPC rewarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
The 50 to 60 difference? I was expected to grind a DoW duty finder instance for Poetics and it took a week of power grinding to cap. Now I can do it in a few days gathering and crafting.
There are flaws to 60 but that is not one of them. As for scarcity, the scarcity is and was these mythical people with 500 mill gil. The ones that set the housing standard and the ones who could in theory buy their end game crafting. Maybe they are out there. I'm not one of them. -
08-12-2015, 12:32 PMAlexander_Dragonfang
Crafting nonsensical progression started with artisan gear needs to stop now. Yes, omnicrafters dominated 2.0-2.1 patches, but crafting was rewarding, fun, simple and engagin. Now only look at how far away any goal is when you reach level 60 is stresfull enough.
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08-13-2015, 09:18 AMAlahraYou remember entirely incorrectly, then. In 2.0, Tomestone gear came in i70 (Philosophy) and i90 (Mythology). Raid gear was i90. Crafted gear was i70 (twenty levels below). In 2.2, Tomestone gear was i90 and i100 (upgradable to i110), raid gear was i110, and crafted gear was i90 (twenty levels below). In 2.4, tomestone gear was i110 and i120 (upgradable to i130), raid gear was i130, and crafted gear was i110 (again, twenty levels below).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
At every point in the 2.0 patch cycle, the crafted alternatives to the lower-end tomestone gear was always superior; with melds, that gear was effectively about 10 item levels higher on average. In 2.4, the crafted gear had such well-itemized stats that it was as good as i130 for a handful of pieces. The gear was always relevant and desired, though locked behind a somewhat arduous grind.
Now, the crafted gear is 30 item levels below the i210 raid gear/best upgraded tomestone gear, and incredibly more difficult to procure than the low-end tomestone gear, heavily devaluing it. -
08-17-2015, 09:32 PMStillShield
I dont mind the grind so much, but its a crying shame that all the craftable i180 Battle gear is dead on arrival. If the craftable items was actually worth crafting, there would be more incentive to farm favors. As 2* master crafter myself, i wouldnt even waste my time crafting a single piece of i180 battle gear. Why? For glam?
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08-18-2015, 03:18 AMSibyllIt doesn't help that you'd need a decent supply of tier V materia to get an appreciable amount of stats out of the gear pieces, which we currently do not have a cost efficient way of acquiring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
The thing I don't get is the convoluted design. They could've just made the crafting mats (puri coke, dryad sap etc.) cost 2 Red Rowena Gathering Tokens and 1 Red Rowena Crafting Token (3 for HQ) and achieved the same effect without the tedious grind. I mean, you could maybe argue it was designed this way to increase supply of materials from the associated level 60 nodes but I generally find myself harvesting crystals instead of Citrite and Dandelions. -
08-18-2015, 03:59 AMHanmerrebornThe glam is the same as the 150, which is infinitely easier to make than the 180Quote:
Originally Posted by StillShield
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08-19-2015, 04:04 AMIrvingSpeaking of Tier V Materia, has there been any word AT ALL about this? The entirety of getting these pieces of gear and praying to god you get any Tier V from transmutation (or paying a fortune) so you can put the guaranteed slots to use is really horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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08-19-2015, 04:20 AMAlahraIt's convoluted enough that every time I get the crafting itch and think "Maybe I'll give it a try," I look at the requirements to get the mats and shrug and give up again. As a main ALC, I can't even be sure anyone will buy any Grade 2 Dissolvents, which makes it incredibly hard to justify the effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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08-19-2015, 06:08 AMSibyllThey should've just made the Grade 1/2 Dissolvents a single material, like terminus putty was, then they could've applied it to non-combat classes too. Making 5 different versions of effectively the same thing splits the market up too much. Alchemy is one of my specialists as well and it's the most useless currently because no one will buy the overpriced i180 gear, at least not for a price that makes it worth crafting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
I'd like to craft, but there are so many other things I'd rather do than gather nodes for 5 hrs. -
08-19-2015, 07:14 AMAlahraI may have BTN to 50 but I can't really stand gathering here. It just doesn't appeal to me. I love the crafting system, but with things as they currently are, I can't enjoy it at all. I'm actually playing a lot less these days--I had no idea how much time I used to fill crafting when I was done with Roulettes and the like until HW hit and I had no more satisfying incentives to craft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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08-19-2015, 07:34 AMSibyllIt'd be one thing if the Favors were a mini-game that required thought. But it isn't. It's on par with mining shards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
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08-19-2015, 03:07 PMKseniaThat's the trouble with all the time sinks in this game. They are blatant and obviously aimed at making the game as cumbersome as possible to buy development time. It's why I stay one patch behind them in progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
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08-20-2015, 12:56 AMSibyllI didn't finish my relic until around FCoB for a similar reason. Problem with crafting is it's only profitable for the first 2 weeks or so before everyone that can afford it has bought it, as it's all glamours. They may as well just dump crafting if they are going to make it a pointless time sink. I mean it's not like crafting has any meaningful impact on the game outside of food and potions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
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08-20-2015, 01:06 AMNomad-phx
I counted up what it would take to make a i180 tank/drg body and was blown completely awawy: 92 total favor items and 10 red crafter tokens? Really? Till now I've only paid attention to the 170 crafter gear but this? Just no lol I officially renounce my defense of the favor system as all that work would be worth it if ilvl was on par but its faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrr from it.
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08-20-2015, 04:50 AMKseniatemplate for the lodestone tweet. more to come in the edit (I was going to delete this but thought it should stay)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibyll
I never used crafting as a tool of wealth. My wallet is 1.6 mill gil right now. With that said, I can't afford crafting. It would take me a million gil to fit NQ 51 gear, universal with main and off hands for the 8 classes. For 2 levels of grind? It isn't over priced, it's brutally hard to get mats even in the intro level for crafting. Same for gathering and in both cases I rolled over them. I'm no place close to HW, still chewing at the neglected MSQ, just doing dailies in GC and my gathering is 54 miner, 52, Botany, 54 Fishing. All my crafts are at 51 except Arm and Bsm and they are one turn in away from 51. (turning in cobalt stuff) By the time I get to where I can even gather in HW my gathering and crafting will be 55+
They shot their own feet off with the system they put in place. In order for me to craft I literally have to do everything else in the game first. I paid a year this time, it will get done but I will miss out on a lot because the entire game is now a means to an end. Something I never had to deal with in this game.
My to do list before I can red script:
Get desynth up: I need too many Demi III's to buy them, for the master II books in even one class, forget 8.
Complete MSQ to 60, unlock HW map. I need to get a second DoW/ DoM up to 51 along side my Whm so I'm not burning off exper in all the quests.
Complete all quests in all 8 crafting classes. (I've only done 3 so far)
Leveling gathering? I won't need to try, it will be done long before I ever complete the other stuff.
Leveling crafts to 60? Not an issue, for the same reason as Gathering.
Ksenia the Weaver is going to be Ksenia the Omni character in all aspects before she ever sees red script for any class. And they are trying to get me to spec? How again? -
08-20-2015, 09:43 AMHanmerrebornEven the DoH stuff is barely above worthless. Unless you nail HQ on the boltmaster set....congrats, you have an HQ chimerical gearset that works for ALL crafting classes, with a few more CP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad-phx
But it looks cooler, so it's totally worth the multiweek grind and the millions of mats/script costs. -
08-20-2015, 09:48 AMtomtensfarfarDon't forget the materia costs too :).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanmerreborn
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08-20-2015, 09:52 AMHanmerrebornLol ya, the same materia you could be putting on the chimerical set and get the bonus on every craft rather than just the one.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtensfarfar