Suggestion - Increase PLD Healing Support, not Dps

No. this would only be good if healers genuinely needed another healer which would be stupid, if you actually need to heal as a PLD in a party someone isn't doing something properly and 'support' heal doesn't matter either since it'll just contribute to overhealing more often than not.

Heal increasing buffs maybe but not actual heals. However we've already got enough of those so if any classes lack utility in the future you can blame the games design as now it just feels like you could only recycle utilities already in game.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You mean when ppl do lvl 50 content on lvl 60 toons unsynced lol?

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No, I mean when Ramuh EX was doable with only Titan as a tank...or like you could do a lot of dungeons withtout a tank.

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Originally Posted by winsock

No. Let's keep separate roles. You want a class that can do everything so you'll never be content with balance. If you want a healer spot, play a healer.

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Right let's keep separate roles, and let's throw PLD and DRK out of the window because WAR can do the same in most cases or even better.
Basically, today, it's, "You want to play something really useful ? Play something else than PLD"

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Originally Posted by winsock

And trust me... you already heal better than titan tanks.
Also, PLD contributes to dps too, so we would either need to take away all of your dps, or let healers off-tank...

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You realize than any healer can DPS far more than any tank can heal, while still healing ? Why don't you suggest we nerf that since "If you want to DPS, play a DPS" ?

Personally I love idea of a healing paladin. But not as support but as core mechanic. What made FFXI PLD awesome was casting a huge heal and drawing massive enmity from it. I would love to see Clemency become a essential part of them maintaining enmity. Something draw all aoe enmity around them.

Enmity is not an issue, they already have all the tools they need, while DPSing.

In FFXI, healing was also an essential part of staying alive, because they didn't have as much mitigation as we have in XIV

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why don't you suggest we nerf that since "If you want to DPS, play a DPS" ?

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As mentioned before, DPSing doesn't step on toes. A DPS role is about DPS. A dps should keep their dps as high as they can, regardless of the dps in the rest of the party. They will still be doing their rotations, poping their cooldowns, etc.

Healing is much different. If a PLD heals a tank to full, a WHM cant/shouldn't heal said tank. If clemency was an instant heal, it can prevent me from using my insta-heal cooldowns. That is stepping on toes.

Lol and if you're jelly of titan, start a threat about nerfing titan... And to be fair, most healers would prefer to heal. Healers end up dpsing because there isn't enough to heal and its better than idling.

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Originally Posted by Abomination713

2. Make Clemency an instant cast. The 3 second cast time really discourages me from using it on partners since the healer will usually have a heal going out on them by the time my cast time is over and it feels like a waste of MP. We should be encouraged to use it on others since it has the 50% HP back bonus to it, but with the cast time, I only want to use it on myself since my HP is more important compared to those around me in those 3 seconds.

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You're missing the point of Clemency. Clemency is not something the raid should count on in any way, and it's something one should ideally be using only while off-tanking, and that's if you see someone not getting healer attention or is out of range for some reason. It's an ability that falls into "nice to have" category. We're tanks, and as such we shouldn't even be thinking about doing the healer's job for them.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Healing is much different. If a PLD heals a tank to full, a WHM cant/shouldn't heal said tank. If clemency was an instant heal, it can prevent me from using my insta-heal cooldowns. That is stepping on toes.

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You realize that a party is eight people, so if you don't have to heal the tank, you still have to heal the raid. And you'd still have to Regen the tank, or Esuna the tank, or include the tank in your group heal right after a raid-wide damage, or raise some fallen party member (Unless you bitch about SMN to step on your toes on that, too)
FFXIV is a game where each job can make a little more than it's role. Everybody can put buffs or debuffs, everybody can DPS at least a little, and DPS even have cooldowns to help them mitigate damage or recover HP.
By the way, I suppose you think WAR step on your toes with there instant Equilibrium, Second Wind or Inner Beast ?

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Originally Posted by winsock

And to be fair, most healers would prefer to heal. Healers end up dpsing because there isn't enough to heal and its better than idling.

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You'd still have the opportunity to go solo heal thanks to a PLD off-tank, and be on heal duty the whole run.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You realize that a party is eight people, so if you don't have to heal the tank, you still have to heal the raid. And you'd still have to Regen the tank, or Esuna the tank, or include the tank in your group heal right after a raid-wide damage, or raise some fallen party member (Unless you bitch about SMN to step on your toes on that, too)

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This made me lol then SMH... Do you even heal? I had to do a character search after reading this... lvl 34 cnj and acn... ast not unlocked... You dont even have access to insta-heals, have no idea how powerful they are, and likewise have no idea how large of a buff that would be to clemency or how much that would impose on the responsibilities of a healer.

To give you some insight. Benediction is the strongest single target heal in the game, but in context it's usually referred to as a WHM 'insta-heal' i.e. the strongest single target heal in the game is most commonly referred to in the context of its cast time.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

FFXIV is a game where each job can make a little more than it's role. Everybody can put buffs or debuffs, everybody can DPS at least a little, and DPS even have cooldowns to help them mitigate damage or recover HP.

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A 'little' more than its role? You keep mentioning SMN (which you dont play). Is your argument: SMN can dps, heal, and tank; therefore, PLD should to? You can already heal and tank better than SMN, why buff PLD more?

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By the way, I suppose you think WAR step on your toes with there instant Equilibrium, Second Wind or Inner Beast ?

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I really dont know what to say here other than go play a healer. A targeted, no cd, insta-heal is insanely superior to a self heal on a cd.

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You'd still have the opportunity to go solo heal thanks to a PLD off-tank, and be on heal duty the whole run.

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Or healers could get some off-tanking abilities, to drop a tank.
Better yet, we could keep the role in roleplaying game.

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Originally Posted by winsock

This made me lol then SMH... Do you even heal? I had to do a character search after reading this... lvl 34 cnj and acn... ast not unlocked... You dont even have access to insta-heals, have no idea how powerful they are, and likewise have no idea how large of a buff that would be to clemency or how much that would impose on the responsibilities of a healer.

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Too bad you don't see my other character

I really don't understand why you still insist to oppose tank and healers...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I suppose you think WAR step on your toes with there instant Equilibrium, Second Wind or Inner Beast ?

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WAR was designed to be a self-healing tank that took more damage that never reduced damage. In 2.1 it got "buffed" to mitigate damage with a mix of increasing max HP and reducing damage intake. Its "mitigation" now is on-par or slightly ahead of PLD, true. But WAR is behind PLD (and DRK) in effective healing. 4% on spells and 20% on abilities. Effective healing falls behind hard when ToB is used without Convalescence. If you don't understand why WAR has self heals that they can't use on others is NOT stepping on healers' toes, you need to think more about tank balance.

Equilibrium, Second Wind, Blood Bath and Inner Beast heals are not boosted by Defiance either. None of these heals, are as effective as Clemency. Specially when every time a PLD increases its own EHP, it increases the effective healing by the same amount.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Too bad you don't see my other character

I really don't understand why you still insist to oppose tank and healers...

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OOO a lvl 50, im so impressed with your other character lol.

hahaha so are you saying that you know what you're asking is ridiculous?
PLD is already a better tank and a better healer than SMN, you can spam cure if you really wanted to and be about as effective as a SMN + you have DV and Clemency on top of that.
Allowing a PLD to replace a healer goes way too far.
Would you have a problem with giving WHM the ability to be a viable offtank and take a tanking slot? I would hope you have a problem with it, but you cant say that its okay for a PLD to take a healer spot, but not okay for a WHM to take a tank spot

Let's keep roles in this role playing game. You cant have you cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by winsock

OOO a lvl 50, im so impressed with your other character lol.

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Yeah, sound like you past that point aaaages, ago. And like it's not enough to no precisely how instant heals works...

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Originally Posted by winsock

Would you have a problem with giving WHM the ability to be a viable offtank and take a tanking slot? I would hope you have a problem with it, but you cant say that its okay for a PLD to take a healer spot, but not okay for a WHM to take a tank spot

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Wow, you still talk about healer tanking...After several times, you still don't understand what I'm saying, impressive.

Would I have a problem giving WHM the ability to tank ? Yes, I would.
Would I have a problem giving a lesser DPS the ability to be a back-up tank ? No, I wouldn't
Would I have a problem giving a lesser Healer the ability to be a back-up DPS ? No, I wouldn't
It's not an opposition from tank and healer, it's a circle Tank -> Healer -> DPS -> Tank.


The problem is, if all jobs are just doing the same things included in their role, then one of them will be the absolute best of them. If tanks only survive and do damage, as long as every one of them can survive, then the best DPS is the best one.

But, maybe I can simply be condescending like you, and say that your tanks are not high enough than you can really see the problem...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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My example is a circle too:
PLD capabilities: tank > healer > dps
SMN capabilities: dps > tank > healer
WHM capabilities: healer > dps > tank.

Only thing is that because PLD does contribute a significant amount of dps:
the SMN would need to be buffed to bewould to contribute a significant amount of healing, and the WHM would need buffed to be able to contribute a significant amount of tanking.

You want PLD to be able to make substantial contributions to tanking, healing, and dpsing, but when other classes are pushed up to the same lvl as your proposal for PLD you have a problem with it. Your proposal isn't balanced.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You want PLD to be able to make substantial contributions to tanking, healing, and dpsing, but when other classes are pushed up to the same lvl as your proposal for PLD you have a problem with it. Your proposal isn't balanced.

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Actually, I' haven't said really much about PLD contributing to DPS...
The only time I did was to answer another idea, were I even suggested to change Sword Oath to have a lesser effect on overall DPS than now
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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sword Oath should increase potency of all actions by 20%. With our auto-attack speed, the effect would be slightly less than what it is now, BUT, it would benefit the enmity gain of weapon skills, for those would like to tank in Sword Oath once in a while, AND, would also boost the potencies of oGCD skill, like Circle Of Scorn and Spirits Within, AND, more importantly for this topic, would also boost the potency of Clemency, thus making it more viable to keep the main tank alive.

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IF pld were buffed to be a competent back healer, It would be totally balanced and justified to cripple its DPS. And it would also separate WAR and PLD more, to give each tank a proper identity.
I even suggested in another topic that the overall DPS of two tanks+two healers+4 DPS would be the same as one main tank+one PLD+one healer+ 5 DPS, meaning that, of course, PLD would do less DPS as an OT than it is now.
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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Will the PLD OT deal far less damage than the WAR ? Yeah, sure, but it allows you to bring one DPS instead of a second healer, and forcing your first healer to be 100% healing throughout the fight, for an overall same party DPS.

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I was thinking again of this topic, and thought of the following changes to make the current PLD skillset more interesting (and effective?):

Shield Oath:
- Certain skills now grant stacks of "Vanguard", up to 5 stacks. Each stack grants Block rate +2%

Sword Oath:
- Certain skills now grant stacks of "Rear Guard", up to 5 stacks. Each stack increases Sword Oath potency by 5

Clemency:
- Cast: Instant, on-GCD
- Heal Potency: 1200
- Consumes 5 stacks of "Vanguard"/"Rear Guard". Additional effect is applied based on current stance:
-- Shield Oath: Target gains a barrier equal to 50% of HP healed
-- Sword Oath: Target gains a "Damage +5%" buff for 15 seconds

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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If you don't buff the other jobs you need to balance yourself by similar proportions.

You're going to need to go further than a change to sword oath. You need to be as poor of a dps as a SMN is a healer. Are you willing to give up more than half of your average dps? (Upping enmity modifiers of course)

Also, your healing would need to be only as good as titan's tanking, who doesn't have access to some of the more useful/needed tank skills like provoke or HG, which further supports not making clemency insta-cast.

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Originally Posted by winsock

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Your nonsense about PLD stepping on Healer toes is tiring. Do you realize that even if Clemency was instant-cast, which I don't advocate, its still a somewhat worse Cure 2 with such a prohibitive MP cost that you can, in a best case scenario, get two off before you have to wait for Riot Blade and Sheltron to let you use it again? Your argument about Summoner is pretty silly too because while Summoner's physick is fairly damn bad, its a DPS class with a freaking combat resurrection, and nobody's stopped taking healers just because SMN can occasionally raise people. Do people stop taking Scholars because of Divine Veil?

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Originally Posted by winsock

You're going to need to go further than a change to sword oath. You need to be as poor of a dps as a SMN is a healer. Are you willing to give up more than half of your average dps? (Upping enmity modifiers of course)

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For once, I'll use the stock phrase. "I'm a tank, my DPS is not a priority" :p
More seriously, if that can make an interesting new setup, yes, I don't care losing most of my DPS. You see, I played FFXI for years, so I'm used of a PLD doing garbage damage.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Also, your healing would need to be only as good as titan's tanking, who doesn't have access to some of the more useful/needed tank skills like provoke or HG, which further supports not making clemency insta-cast.

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I'd still won't have an AoE healing, a status ailment removal spell, or a HoT. That's lacking some of the more useful skill.
What I'd like, though, is the removal of the in-battle raise trait, since it's a pure nonsense that CNJ is the only class who need it.

A faster Clemency could allow PLD to heal the main tank...even if it is the main tank, while still needing the (solo) healer to provide Esuna or Regen.

What could be more interesting, though, is to offer PLD the option to specialize in MND, by still tying healing potency to MND. If you equip your right side full MND, you'll naturally lose most of your DPS potential. This way, PLD could still do some damage or provide good healing support, but not both at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Lol that dps drop will make PLD the worst tank to get in 4 man roulettes.

At any rate, what titan lacks are saves amoungst other things, just like eos and Selene also lack saves. No reason to give a PLD one.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lol that dps drop will make PLD the worst tank to get in 4 man roulettes.

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That's so narrow-minded I don't know where to start to explain how wrong you are...

I'll try...
First, a sturdier PLD will allow the healer to be full DPSing, especially if, like I suggested, the "lesser" healer would be adjusted to be an efficient backup-DPS and you ended with that healer.
Second, the most time you spend in dungeons are not bosses but trash pull, and PLD already don't do much damage on trash pull since it tanks with Flash, so it wouldn't change that much.
Third, why do people keep thinking "fastest" equals "best" ?

You were quick to dismiss my knowledge of healing but I'm really starting to wonder if you know anything about playing PLD...

Clemency would probably work better as a weaker but faster and cheaper cure spell, instead of it being a cure 2, let it be a cure, reduce MP cost to 1414, cast time to 2 seconds and healing potency to 800. You'd end up overhealing significantly less, be able to use clemency more often, and spend less time doing 0 dps during your casts.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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A healer does nearly full dps as is in the roulettes. PLD would need to be a less effective healer than AST, who already has issues getting into performed parties for more difficult content. Where are you thinking the PLD becomes useful again?

Assuming 2 runs of the same content, how would you determine which run is better?

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You were quick to dismiss my knowledge of healing but I'm really starting to wonder if you know anything about playing PLD...

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I might be a little worried... if we were actually discussing "playing PLD" at all. But we're talking about the healing role, and your ridiculous idea of PLD replacing a healer.

You don't understand the healing role or the implications of what you're asking.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Assuming 2 runs of the same content, how would you determine which run is better?

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That's a really vague question, but I'll make an example.

Let's take one run on any dungeon where the tank pulls the whole pack of mobs, dies along one of the DPS, warp back to entrance while the rest of the groupe kills the pack in 2 minutes. Then, the first boss is killed in 1 minute but the tank was kept at most 30% HP during the whole fight. Second part, another pack takes 2 minutes, one DPS dies and warp back, then the second boss, killed by the DPS in 2 minutes, while the tank, in DPS stance, dies and was stuck out of the arena. Last pack, 2 minutes, no death, and last boss, 2 minutes two, with the healer dead and the tank forced to use its "oh, shit" button.
Summary : 11 minutes run, 5 death and one "oh,shit" moment

Another run, same content. The tank pulls half the pack, killed in 2 minutes without death, then the rest of the pack, killed in 1 minute, still no death. First boss, killed in 2 minutes, no danger here cause the healer was only focused on healing. Second part, pack spli in two again for a total time of 4 minutes with no death. Second boss, killed in 3 minutes with a safe tanking and healing. Last pack, with several pulls, killed in 3 minutes. Last boss, a little more risky, killed in 2 minutes, with the healer dead and the same oh,shit button as the first group.
Summary : 17 minutes run, 1 death and one "oh,shit" moment

For me, the second run was MUCH better than the first. For most people, those 6 minutes added are a proof of absolute crap.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I might be a little worried... if we were actually discussing "playing PLD" at all.

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So maybe you'd avoid proving how PLD is the "worst" tank by having the weakest DPS.

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Originally Posted by winsock

But we're talking about the healing role, and your ridiculous idea of PLD replacing a healer.
You don't understand the healing role or the implications of what you're asking.

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Yet I'm the only one of us to point how playing a healer is far more than having one potent single target spell and how a party would still need one to be able to survive.
But I don't know, maybe you play WHM only by spamming single target heals...that'd explain why you're so afraid of PLD taking your spot...

If paladin had an AoE heal with a decent potency and no cast time on like a 50 second it so cooldown that would be pretty sweet. It wouldn't be a waste either because heals generate a lot of enmity anyways.

Their spells with cast time are basically useless because you are the tank. You're gonna get interrupted and then you just wasted time...

Whatever happened to combat casting? Clerics and Paladins in ADD and a lot of derivative games have this trait so there spells won't be interrupted while getting hit. Paladin could really use something like this.

I agree with the general premise though of buffing paladin's healing abilities since they *do* have CNJ as a secondary class. As it stands right now their heals are pretty much garbage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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I love how you talk about speed not being everything, while crying that PLD isn't currently balanced because WAR is a viable tank and has more dps.

Also, where does your proposal "fix" PLD? Your proposal makes it the worst tank for dungeon roulettes. You need to be a poorer healer than AST to be balanced, but AST struggles to get into endgame groups, so you won't be replacing a healer there.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I love how you talk about speed not being everything, while crying that PLD isn't currently balanced because WAR is a viable tank and has more dps.

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Yes, you could love since this is the exact same issue for both.

It's because everyonne focus on fast fast fast /clap
But it's also because PLD doesn't offer anything significant over WAR...but I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over in multiple threads.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But it's also because PLD doesn't offer anything significant over WAR...but I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over in multiple threads.

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How does your "solution" fix this "problem"?
If you believe PLD to be the worst dungeon runner, you'd just be making it worst. In parties created for more difficult content, you won't be replacing healer and would be even less useful as a tank. Your "solution" doesn't make PLD better, it just makes balance worse.