I severely do not like Bow Mage.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Did you move a lot as a BRD while fighting back in the many 2.0 dungeons? No.

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Yes, because AOEs.

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Do you move a lot as a BRD while fighting now in the 3.0 dungeons? No.

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Yes, because AOEs.

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So why not USE WM if you're not moving most of the time then? Just because it doesn't "feel" right?

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Because cast times affect Bard negatively more than just their mobility through missed BL/RoD/SS procs or casting Straight Shot before Straighter Shot even procs.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Yes, because AOEs.

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1.5 seconds

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Yes, because AOEs.

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1.5 seconds


i think a lot of us need a serious helping of get good, the only problem I'm having is the missed BL sometimes, but even still thats not TOO bad. And this is talking in Savage progression, BTW.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

1.5 seconds

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Can be interrupted. Also irrelevant to the question.

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1.5 seconds

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Can be interrupted. Also irrelevant to the question.

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i think a lot of us need a serious helping of get good.

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And I think a lot of people need a serious helping of not trying to convince people they should like something they don't like, especially when it doesn't concern them either way.

Actually the interupt arguement is fair, sometimes you'll get interupted. In savage the only time i get interupted is if i get hit by something i shouldnt.. because it kills me. There's no interupts on the AoE damage unless you messed up something pretty much

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Originally Posted by Odowla

There's no interupts on the AoE damage unless you messed up something pretty much

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Interrupted as in you can't always rely on waiting for your shot to "be cast enough" before having to move out of the AOE. Just because it's 1.5 seconds doesn't mean the boss will happily wait for that 1.5 seconds before starting the cast time of their AOE.

Although the shots can also be interrupted by damage, especially by unavoidable AOEs.

Ja not changing anytime soon and nothing to debate, that is why joke images and the one with "OK" are appropriate. At this point these threads are just sad want of do other people hate the job now too? With mixed reviews and people pointing out that BRD still performs fine. WEEEE so useful

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Originally Posted by Odowla

1.5 seconds


1.5 seconds


i think a lot of us need a serious helping of get good, the only problem I'm having is the missed BL sometimes, but even still thats not TOO bad. And this is talking in Savage progression, BTW.

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Being good at it doesn't mean you like it.

I'm good with kids. Guess what? I hate dealing with kids.

I'm good at cooking. I hate doing it.

I'm good at writing. I hate doing that too.

Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you're bad at it. Get a grip.

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Originally Posted by Medieval

Yes I did, don't answer for people. I loved to strife back and forth in dungeons and raids. It kept me on my toes.

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I'm not picking an argument, but I should point out that even outside of raids, there is such a thing as wasted movement. If you're strafing left and right and JUST as you begin your reverse movement, an aoe pops up there, what's easier to dodge: An aoe you're now moving toward, or an aoe you were never standing in to begin with?

In fairness, if someone has the reflexes to still dodge on the fly like that, great. But unnecessary movement can be costly.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Did you move a lot as a BRD while fighting back in the many 2.0 dungeons? No.
Do you move a lot as a BRD while fighting now in the 3.0 dungeons? No.

So why not USE WM if you're not moving most of the time then? Just because it doesn't "feel" right?

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yes you did move a lot, and if I didn't I wouldn't have any gripes with it.

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Originally Posted by Tokyozombie

yes you did move a lot, and if I didn't I wouldn't have any gripes with it.

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I've leveled up BRD to level 50 back in 2.0, and I rarely had to move often in boss fights while the boss was still targetable. Level 58 right now (currently spamming The Vault for level 59), and I STILL haven't had to move that much in most fights while still hitting the boss. The only boss I can even remotely say that I had to take off WM for was Sohm Al's last boss, at which point I was having to do it only for the comet phases to run them out. So no, you didn't move a lot in 2.0 for most cases, and you don't move a lot in here in most cases for any significant DPS drops.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've leveled up BRD to level 50 back in 2.0, and I rarely had to move often in boss fights while the boss was still targetable. Level 58 right now (currently spamming The Vault for level 59), and I STILL haven't had to move that much in most fights while still hitting the boss. The only boss I can even remotely say that I had to take off WM for was Sohm Al's last boss, at which point I was having to do it only for the comet phases to run them out. So no, you didn't move a lot in 2.0 for most cases, and you don't move a lot in here in most cases for any significant DPS drops.

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why would you ever base a class on leveling? raiding, expert dungeons, pvp and even 24 man dungeons are where the game starts. I didn't base my opinions on the class change until trying it in neverreap, fractal continuum and Bismark EX.

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Originally Posted by Tokyozombie

why would you ever base a class on leveling? raiding, expert dungeons, pvp and even 24 man dungeons are where the game starts. I didn't base my opinions on the class change until trying it in neverreap, fractal continuum and Bismark EX.

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The following is what I'm seeing just from boss mechanics.

Neverreap boss 1, all untargetable moments are when you have to stand in his shadow's mist just to hit it, other than that and the occasional AoE, nothing to dodge.
Neverreap boss 2, outside of needing more than one totem taken out of a field, you're not off the boss at all.
Neverreap boss 3, dodging tornados and the boss, this one I admit you're dodging quite a bit on.

Fractal boss 1, if you're standing at the diagonal between the slashes, you barely need to move at all outside of the ton of AoE circles he does sometimes.
Fractal boss 2, outside of the charge move and avoiding his large AoE immediately afterwards, no movement.
Fractal boss 3, no movement outside of not being in the same space as a land mine and the glowing spaces when he clears the field of obstructions.

Alex 1, no movement against Faust, dodging slightly for AoEs and maybe moving to get the adds in position (depending on whether or not the other DPS can grab them both easily).
Alex 2, no real movement outside of normal AoE dodging.
Alex 3, Sluices and the magnets only.
Alex 4, the normal small AoEs here and there, to a laser if you need to block it, and maybe orbs.

Bismarck EX, just dodging the AoEs, tornados, and being in/out of mid depending on weather.
Ravana EX, the only times you dodge while attacking is the orbs and Final Liberation.

85% of the time in almost all of those fights you are not moving much at all, and you're telling me that BRDs move a lot?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

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So what I read here is "There's no movement except for when there's movement". Also, "There's movement required in all of the bosses". So... I guess thanks for proving that you need to move in all the fights?

But man, with all this non-movement, those melee saying they deserve higher damage for having to avoid AOEs and BLMs complaining about having to move and drop their Enochian really don't have much to complain about, eh? Or do they have to move but Bards don't for some reason?

"you don't need to move, except when you need to move."
thanks for proving my point.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

So what I read here is "There's no movement except for when there's movement". Also, "There's movement required in all of the bosses". So... I guess thanks for proving that you need to move in all the fights?

But man, with all this non-movement, those melee saying they deserve higher damage for having to avoid AOEs and BLMs complaining about having to move and drop their Enochian really don't have much to complain about, eh? Or do they have to move but Bards don't for some reason?

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I've heard BLM is lacking on DPS because they are moving too much as well. Exactly what I was thinking when I saw this.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

So what I read here is "There's no movement except for when there's movement". Also, "There's movement required in all of the bosses". So... I guess thanks for proving that you need to move in all the fights?

But man, with all this non-movement, those melee saying they deserve higher damage for having to avoid AOEs and BLMs complaining about having to move and drop their Enochian really don't have much to complain about, eh? Or do they have to move but Bards don't for some reason?

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Considering melee is always a danger zone and have the highest risk/reward out of DPS, they're fine and those complaints are from bads. And BLMs do have to deal with as much movement as BRDs do, but the good BLMs will move the shortest distance to safety before going back to casting to keep Enochian up. So yes, those complaints are unfounded, much as the complaints here are.

Because I now realize why you guys are complaining...you're complaining because for the first time, BRDs actually have downtime from attacking like everybody else. Before you could keep attacking no matter what, but now you're experiencing the downtime that every other DPS class up to this point has felt, and it drives you nuts. But you have one thing the other classes don't...for heavy movement times, you have CONTROL of your downtime. You can shut off WM and go back to full blast no downtime until the movement is over...so you can have your cake and eat it too. You can have both the rewarding damage of WM and the movement without it...because it's a toggle move, it's not on all the time. Figure out the times you need to turn it off, and maximize your DPS.

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Originally Posted by Tokyozombie

"you don't need to move, except when you need to move."
thanks for proving my point.

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So you guys are complaining that you have actual downtime for once like all the other DPS classes have had forever? You're complaining that for once, BRDs now have moments where they can't attack just like everybody else? That you now have to wait for safety to attack? You are not a special snowflake class, you are going through what everybody else goes through for the first time simply because you now have downtime whereas you didn't before. As I said above, you have control over that downtime. Turn off WM if you're going to move so you can still attack, and then turn it back on when you no longer need to move. It's that simple, and you need to get used to it, because SE isn't going to get rid of WM when all you have to do is toggle the move off for heavy movement.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Because I now realize why you guys are complaining...you're complaining because for the first time, BRDs actually have downtime from attacking like everybody else. Before you could keep attacking no matter what, but now you're experiencing the downtime that every other DPS class up to this point has felt, and it drives you nuts.

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This guy gets it

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But you have one thing the other classes don't...for heavy movement times, you have CONTROL of your downtime. You can shut off WM and go back to full blast no downtime until the movement is over...so you can have your cake and eat it too.

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Not really. Having the cake and eating it in this case would be WM having no cooldown instead of locking you in WM for 15 seconds after using it. Granted, that creates other issues (constant stance-dancing, for one), but considering that it's essentially a button that exists for the sake of having a button to push, that's not really surprising.

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So you guys are complaining that you have actual downtime for once like all the other DPS classes have had forever?

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Because BRD was designed around that "lack of downtime" from the ground up. You can't even chalk it up to it being just the long-time BRDs that have an issue with this. There's even people picking up the job post-HW's release that seem to find the change jarring, and that's not a good sign at all.

In short, WM's implementation is lacking at best, terrible at worst. If the intent was to add cast times to lessen BRD mobility, doing it through a toggle at lv52 is not the way to go about it.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

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Before bard settled for lower dps for mobility for 2 years. Instead of creating some bard skills that should be cast at the right time they borked it by giving most important skills a cast and slapping this stance on it. I'm for down time but I didn't pick bard to be a full-fledged caster and I'm not going to roll over and accept bad design like you are.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

...you're complaining because for the first time, BRDs actually have downtime from attacking like everybody else.

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Bards have no downtime. Pretty easy to drop and re apply wanderers. I drop it for the adds in a1/baiting resins. Hurts my dps? NP I got 2 dots ticking on each boss. If you gotta move and you just applied wanderers, then there is feint. Same deal as heavy shot, but instant , 30 less potency and 20 extra tp cost. I never used it yet though....but it's there. Bard zero downtime. All cri babies need to stop, really.

You know I've yet to see what the complaints even are. All these good bards pulling decent dps in savage...like I said if you came to the forums every job is failing <.<

The casting is fine. It's not your cup of tea, but that isn't really an issue of game mechanics, now is it? If you're salty because SE changed a job that they created and own then whatever, that sounds like your personal trauma.

The problem is that it doesn't synergise smoothly with BRD's various off gcd abilities and procs. There are ways that this can be fixed without gutting WM, because let's face it, it's here to stay. That and that it seems virtually every other job gets more useful support abilities than the designated "support" job. Where is our Dancing Edge? Where is our Disembowel? Where is our Storm's Path? DRG's got Battle Litany and we got Warden's... Paean?

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Originally Posted by Noira

You know I've yet to see what the complaints even are. All these good bards pulling decent dps in savage...like I said if you came to the forums every job is failing <.<

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It is important to note that of the 2.x classes, bard changed the most. WM impacts, for better or worse, nearly every skill and ability(main exception being songs).

There are many types of bards. Not every bard dislikes WM, and those who do dislike it don't all dislike it for the same reasons. Let's recap a bit.

Reasons some bards like WM:
1) Damage. Bard is doing the same damage relative to other classes that it did in 2.1+. Boasting on the increase that WM brings is as misinformed as complaining on damage lost. There really is no change either way.
2) Play style. Not every bard played 2.x bard because they loved the mechanics of the class. Some are forced in by their static, some just really like support, some just really like bows, and some just chose archer first and hadn't had the chance to try other classes. Some bards liked 2.x bard the most, but still prefer bard under WM.
3) Skill gap. In 2.x, bard had a really low skill floor to do acceptable damage. WM widens the damage gap between skilled bards and lesser skilled bards.
4) Challenge. Some bards find movement mechanics challenging and enjoy the challenge. Some bards enjoy the challenges in maximizing the oGCD.

Reasons some bards dislike WM:
1) Damage. See #1 under likes.
2) Mobility. Previously, bard was the choice for those who didn't find reduced mobility enjoyable. In a way, the only option for these types of players was taken off the table. It may be hard for these players to understand the reasoning why, considering bard wasn't generally considered OP previously.
3) Play style. Many bards landed on bard because they found the way it played to be the most enjoyable. WM changes nearly everything in big or small ways.
4) Clunkiness. These bards don't necessarily dislike WM itself, but rather how cast times interact with the skill set. Things like bloodletter resets, straighter shot procs, repelling shot, flaming arrow, and empyreal arrow all behave in a way some bards find jarring.
5) Too challenging. These bards want an easy mode.
6) Reduced challenge. As has been pointed out in this thread and other bard threads many times, 1.5s casts don't really provide much of a challenge to players of moderate skill. In general the GCD has been simplified and emphasized, playing closer to a "lazy" 2.x bard. The players previously trying to maximize bard were doing things like instant reaction to straighter shot proc and quad barrage. Although these were a really tiny portion of one's DPS, they did require a fair bit of concentration and focus which some bards find more challenging than BRD under WM.

Bards who will never be happy:
1) Support. Although the impact is high, actually using a support ability is a rare treat. Bards who want bard to play a larger support role will forever be disappointed.
2) Damage. Those bards who want bard's damage to be the same as SMN and BLM in nearly every encounter are very unlikely to have their dreams come true.
3) Those who hate change or like to complain. Every class has these guys. Even WAR.

Do you guys wanna know why they changed bard? BC ALL YOU BARD PLAYERS COMPLAINED YOU DID SHIT DAMAGE SO THEY GAVE YOU A 30% INCREASE IN SKILL DAMAGE WHY YOU ASK???? BC YOU ALL WHINED ABOUT YOUR DPS COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER JOB instead of adding more support ability's they turned you into this ''Bow mage'' they buffed your dps so you can hold way into the 1k's like everyone else your own damn faults. (btw I find the cast time not so bad and you can slide towards the end of the cast timer old BLM trick to move so git gud)

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Originally Posted by Tyrius

Do you guys wanna know why they changed bard? BC ALL YOU BARD PLAYERS COMPLAINED YOU DID SHIT DAMAGE SO THEY GAVE YOU A 30% INCREASE IN SKILL DAMAGE WHY YOU ASK???? BC YOU ALL WHINED ABOUT YOUR DPS COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER JOB instead of adding more support ability's they turned you into this ''Bow mage'' they buffed your dps so you can hold way into the 1k's like everyone else your own damn faults. (btw I find the cast time not so bad and you can slide towards the end of the cast timer old BLM trick to move so git gud)

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Don't presume to lump all bard players into one group. I liked how bard was before, and never complained bout dps. I should just forget about your comment and lump you in with all the noob dark knights I see that don't know how to tank.

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Originally Posted by mb52139

Don't presume to lump all bard players into one group. I liked how bard was before, and never complained bout dps. I should just forget about your comment and lump you in with all the noob dark knights I see that don't know how to tank.

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Edit '' Most'' sorry :(

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Originally Posted by dielray

It is important to note that of the 2.x classes, bard changed the most. WM impacts, for better or worse, nearly every skill and ability(main exception being songs).

Reasons some bards dislike WM:
3) Play style. Many bards landed on bard because they found the way it played to be the most enjoyable. WM changes nearly everything in big or small ways.
4) Clunkiness. These bards don't necessarily dislike WM itself, but rather how cast times interact with the skill set. Things like bloodletter resets, straighter shot procs, repelling shot, flaming arrow, and empyreal arrow all behave in a way some bards find jarring.
.

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These two reasons are why I can't get myself to play bard after capping it (which I only did out of principle since it was my previous main and it shares non-eso gear with MCH).

It's clear enough that WM was literally slapped onto BRD without a second thought. I was under the huge impression that MCH would be the one that'd have more of a stationary stance to increase damage output after some of the intial class previews. Ironically enough, MCH is more mobile than bard in WM/GB due to their procs and hell, the job trailer before and XXI live letter showcased bard with WM and they did not even mention GB at all for machinist.

After leveling both BRD and MCH, the two jobs, despite all this, play with an extremely similar concept in mind under the effects of WM and GB. Similar in the sense of scholar/arcanist dps...not similar in the sense of BLM/SMN... You refresh DoTs, you watch for procs, and use oGCDs as they come off, but WM doesn't even allow bard to reliably fulfill the second part. I'm not even deciding which class to play because the encounter is better than it or which one of the two has a more appealing concept, I feel like I'm playing the one that frustrates me less because of their design.

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Originally Posted by Tyrius

Do you guys wanna know why they changed bard? BC ALL YOU BARD PLAYERS COMPLAINED YOU DID SHIT DAMAGE SO THEY GAVE YOU A 30% INCREASE IN SKILL DAMAGE WHY YOU ASK???? BC YOU ALL WHINED ABOUT YOUR DPS COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER JOB instead of adding more support ability's they turned you into this ''Bow mage'' they buffed your dps so you can hold way into the 1k's like everyone else your own damn faults. (btw I find the cast time not so bad and you can slide towards the end of the cast timer old BLM trick to move so git gud)

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Except that bards are in the exact same position they were pre change in dps ranking. The clunkiness is what bothers me the most, but it's silly to think they added it so they could give us more dps when our dps hasn't changed.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I now realize why you guys are complaining

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No you don't.

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you're complaining because .. BRDs actually have downtime

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Swing and a miss.

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now you're experiencing the downtime ... it drives you nuts.

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I've leveled all of the classes to 50 and went through at least all the 24-man raids with each class, experiencing all their downtime through leveling and the various stages of end game. In addition, I quit my Bard at 56 pre-buff. I moved to a SMN/SCH. I only went back to BRD to finish it off to 60 because all of my retainers at the time were archers.

I was completely fine with the downtime of the other classes the whole time.

Maybe you should stop trying to speak for other people. You're not doing a terribly good job of it.

So many threads on this and yet I come into another one. Bard is great and I like the changes. The cast times are not big deal, I rarely have to take off Minuet.

SE really shouldn't have changed Bard in the way they did. It's irrelevant if you like the new BRD or prefer 2.x BRD, SE chose to fundamentally alter a job that had developed a following around a certain play-style. There's no other way to look at it. If SE had been forthright about the full extent of the change and been quite transparent about the reasons for the change it would be an entirely separate matter, but they weren't. It's the effective equivalent to opting to say WAR will now be the low damage, high mitigation, tank without offering any context or heads up to the player-base.

Yes, SE "owns" the jobs as someone pointed out in the thread, but players often have a strong preference towards one or another and have put in their time and money in part due to that job. Fundamentally altering it without offering an extensive explanation in advance shows serious lack of concern for players. It's a pretty bleak thought that at any moment the random job team might put your favorite job out of commission by effectively replacing it with one you don't recognize. I'm not bothered, as a casual (at best), BRD by the changes mainly because they don't directly affect me.

I am bothered by the new standard this sets in job development moving forward. I'm honestly not sure why more people aren't. Even if you like BRD as it is the fact that this change occurred in the manner it did should concern you for the future development of the game. Next expansion they could remove all of the things you now enjoy about BRD that you previously didn't.

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Originally Posted by Ryahask

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That is a bit drastic plenty of games changed some core features for balance. I mean 1.0 to 2.0 is a much larger (and healthy) change. While I get some frustration, at this time it is complaining and doom saying for its own sake. DPS and support wise they are still at the place SE wants them at and are still used in every static (MCH took a few spots, but they both fill the same role). Gameplay changes happen and while it is sad or annoying to see stuff go many times it is healthy evolution to a game.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

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Like I said, had they been transparent and very open with the community then I would agree with you. They instead chose to fundamentally alter a job based on internal reasoning which was never shared. If you logged in tomorrow and your favorite class had lost it's primary game-play mechanic wouldn't you be upset? Evolution is healthy for a MMO, and sometimes mechanics on different roles need to be changed for balance reasons, but it's common sense to relay this information to the community and prepare them for the changes.

They also could've examined methods of evolving the job without so fundamentally altering the primary mechanic. Why not have a short lived buff which requires the BRD to stay still over the duration and have the buff be on a CD. It requires BRDs to alter their game-play to perform optimally, but doesn't completely gut their existing game-play. The method they opted for did just that. It may seem melodramatic to you, and you're welcome to feel that way, but I do genuinely feel it was poorly handled. Obviously the changes have occurred and I'm not necessarily suggesting they need to be reverted, but I am suggesting that this SHOULD have been handled better.

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Originally Posted by Ryahask

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Never said I do not understand some dislike or annoyance, SE has never been big on talking about any changes or additions until day of. People have been clamoring for public beta for a while. This behavior is not uncommon of SE for FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Guys a female roe has entered the thread. We are unworthy of being in her presence. In fact, I'm breaking several traditions by simply READING her glorious pixelized words of wisdom that my ears have been blessed to here.

All of you, including me, get out the thread.

Now.





:3

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Oh my gosh. My sister from another server. <3

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Originally Posted by Ryahask

I am bothered by the new standard this sets in job development moving forward. I'm honestly not sure why more people aren't. Even if you like BRD as it is the fact that this change occurred in the manner it did should concern you for the future development of the game. Next expansion they could remove all of the things you now enjoy about BRD that you previously didn't.

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Agreed. As I've said here and elsewhere, this whole thing doesn't bode well for any job.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Gameplay changes happen and while it is sad or annoying to see stuff go many times it is healthy evolution to a game.

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This depends on the change and what input from the community had to do with the change.

When WoW revamped hunters to go from using Mana to using a resource called Focus, it was at the behest of a good chunk of the hunter community since mana proved to be a very inefficient resource that didn't play well with how long fights were designed. The class ended up getting a full revamp so that all the abilities and shot synergies worked around having Focus as a resource. It had its issues when implemented, but you didn't see massive threads asking Blizzard to revert hunters back to Mana because a) the hunter community was asking for the change and b) the developers prepped the players by talking about it, allowing for previews and yes, open betas. The old guard had to adjust, new players that just started a hunter would feel no change whatsoever.

WM implementation is the exact opposite. There was no discussion and no talks from either side other than some BRDs wanting to do more DPS. This stuff didn't even come to head until a month before the expansion launched when we finally started getting details on what would happen to the ARR jobs. Making it worse, the jarring change was left intact since a new person picking up ARC/BRD today would level as the old guard did 1-51 and then feel WM change the core gameplay of the job from 52-60. So rather than having just the old guard complaining and not liking the new design, you also have new people who pick up that job as potential members of that camp.

This is why I say that if the SE's intent is to add cast bars to BRD or limit some of its mobility in exchange for DPS, then this has to be done from top to bottom. You can't just leave things as they are 1-51 and then pull the rug from under people and say "take this change and like it".

Yup,
I don't like it either.

They took the souls of what brd was, it's essence... And completely killed it.

It completely "feels" wrong.

So, I simply just don't use WM.
I don't care about DPS, and I don't care about what anyone thinks. I enjoyed playing brd, a lot.

And I will continue to play brd, as I liked to play, without WM until the day they change it back or put the finishing moves on brd at which point I'll just stop playing it.

The only people the devs hurt with WM are the people that have to play with brd.

Brd is still a fun class to play, just don't use that awful WM gimmick.

To put this into perspective, unless I am in a 8man group, I hate.....HATE getting grouped with Bards and MCH. At that point I realize, my dungeon run just got longer.

I don't had some decent Vault runs go smooth and quickly with me as the mch and a bard. It's the player not the job.

I think the main reason they did it tbh was to force you to stand still because of mechanics design.

You being able to move all the time unhindered was a liability.