Motion: Twin Adder perma Echo boost at Aether server

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Originally Posted by Februs

I'm still not sure how premades work... I mean, you can only get a party of 8, so you're still gambling on the other 16, right? Or.... am I wrong about that and there's crazy PvP'ers out there who know how to work around the system? ... I just want my Behe gear! >.>

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A single well coordinated party of 8 (especially if they can communicate through voice chat) is very much a force mutliplier when facing disorganized mobs. They often have easier times focusing down opponents and securing objectives.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Yes, but it's better to have a third of the party communicating and working with you than none of them. In Seize it tends to be even better than Secure or Savage, since if your alliance members see your static going for a point, they'll likely follow suit. And if you happen to get into a 24 man match, then god help the other Grand Companies.

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I get ya. I just wasn't sure if there was some way for people to completely stack their Alliance. I know what you mean when people follow suit. There's always a few that do their own thing, but it's glorious when one team acts as a strong rally point for the other two.

I had a beat down from Adders tonight think we only topped 500. They refused to stop killing us. I would bet they were cross server chatting Faerie and Balmung. I wouldn't mind you guys so much if you didn't wear that garish yellow.

I feel premades aren't as helpful in seize as they were in slaughter. In bad slaughter matches coordination ruled. But with seize like secure if the other two teams turn the right way a premade isn't going to save them. They just can't cover the whole map. We were slowly being pushed back one death at a time with adders occasionally dieing. If maelstrom had only pushed from behind and given us some room we probably could have turned it. Or if spawn happens in an unfriendly way. I have been on some really good pugs where I knew most were already 50. But bad spawns prevented us from getting the win.

So I noticed Tuesday the worst. Most of the players have toxic attitude, laughing about feeding and outright saying who gives a shit I'm just here for estotics, pvp sucks. After they afk/ feed there way to the cap the aether adders are actually a pretty good.

problem is 90% of the time adders are to defensive mael n flames 300 points ahead n 1 of them holding 2 nodes but all u see on chat is DEF!!! DEF!!! DEF!!! lmao and talk about the bitterness on alliance chat if a small group of 4-5 dies.. u died cost us 5 points GG!!! go die some more we wont win nows

Chaos datacentre Adder here. This weeks results so far: 4 x first, 5 x second, 14 x third. :(

There are 2 problems that seem to be most common:

- We attack one team at the beginning... and never stop! Presumably, we have some sort of grudge against this team; they all have to be exterminated, even if they have 0 points! It gets to the stage that even if our team does begin falling back, we've angered the enemy so much that they follow us across the map in an attempt to avenge their fallen brothers! All the while, the 3rd GC is left to their own devices, taking multiple nodes uncontested and sailing to victory.

- We grab a single node and defend it forever. Anyone daring to move from this node gets yelled at (despite the fact that we're in last place and aren't going to catch up by defending a single B rank node). We come last... but at least nobody died, right!?

On the plus side, at least we get really fast queue times!

(P.S. I'm not saying that adders should get some kind of 'boost'... that's just silly! But I do think that PVP would be better for all if the teams were randomised rather than GC restricted... shorter queues, easier to group up with your friends, wouldn't have people GC hopping to get on the 'winning side'.)

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...ntline/weekly/

Yeah, okay, Adders are the ones that need an echo boost, sure...

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Originally Posted by LStarbreeze

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...ntline/weekly/

Yeah, okay, Adders are the ones that need an echo boost, sure...

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Well clearly, it all depends on the data centre!

Just look at the leader board for total weekly victories, Chaos DC. There are only 7 twin adders players in the top 100!

Public Service Announcement to all teams. Watch the score, for the love of something. 400 points down isn't a loss yet. If you are in last and second is over 200 points down they will have to kill first place team, to get back in the game.

If you feel that GC is good at killing stuff stop chasing them. But what about our kills we are in last place? Good question. You have already established you are bad at killing by being down by 400. Sneaking in kills when the other two teams are engaged isn't gong to help you. Watch the Map you can get two nodes most of the time. You also get to kill probably about 4-6 idiots from the other grand companies.

I have seen GC come back while second place helped them win with no other choice. I have also seen them screw second place over and be turned on and finishing embarrassingly last. Chasing kills is not going to get a GC from third to first but some smart play might.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Primal seems to be an odd ball. Flames in every other Datacenter seem to be either dominant or at the least competitive.

Primal: Flames 29 with 50%+, Adders Top 100 52.9%+, Storm Top 100 52.1%+

In comparison the other Datacenters:
Aether: Flames Top 100 65%+, Adders 25 with a 50%+, Storm 36 with 50%+
Chaos: Flames Top 100 50%+, Adders 11 with 50%+, Storm Top 100 53.8%+
Mana: Flames Top 100 60%+, Adders 47 with 50%+, Storm 60 with 50%+
Gaia: Flames Top 100 53.3%+, Adders Top 100 50.6%+, Storm 51 with 50%+
Elemental: Flame Top 100 55.2%+, Adders 43 with 50%+, Storm Top 100 50%+

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How do you guys figure this stuff out?

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Originally Posted by Blubbers

Snip.

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Where do you guys get this kind of data to figure this stuff out?

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Originally Posted by Februs

How do you guys figure this stuff out?

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Originally Posted by Februs

Where do you guys get this kind of data to figure this stuff out?

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Right Here.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Right Here.

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Ah hah. Thanks. I thought it might be this, but Figured I'd ask. The way the FFXIV community is, you never know. I thought you guys had some sort of crazy tracking system in place or something lol.

My FC needs a nerf :0

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Originally Posted by PotatoTree

My FC needs a nerf :0

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Based on the sudden jump in Flame queue times today it looks like our win rates may plummet.

Brace yourselves, the bandwagoners are coming!

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Brace yourselves, the bandwagoners are coming!

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The other night I had a match I didnt know one name out of all 23 players. It was horrible game. 20 people couldn't push the adders off one spot.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

The other night I had a match I didnt know one name out of all 23 players. It was horrible game. 20 people couldn't push the adders off one spot.

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lol Ohhh yeah they're definitely switching over now. All the scared people who wanna run around and depend on RNG.

Here's my personal take on Aether Twin Adder pugs, and why Adder 1st place finishes are so rare. IMO, it's not because Maelstrom or Immortal Flames are significantly more skilled - it's just because of a couple core issues that are really hard to solve without a shift in overall strategic mentality across the entire GC:

Adder PUGs are far too pacifist and passive for their own good.

In the early weeks of Seal Rock play when mechanics were still being worked out, the most vocal Adder players advocated a "defend and hold" strategy that prioritized holding nodes / points over engaging in combat with other teams. While this may have worked during Seal Rock's infancy because no one knew what to do, it's unfortunate because it seems to have stuck with PUG Adders as the predominant go-to strat despite it being a very poor one. Why is it so poor? Because:

1. It wrongly assumes that the other two teams will either hold still or engage one another while avoiding the node(s) in Adder possession. To put it simply, it relies on the other two teams being dumb to be successful. What often ends up happening in this scenario is that either Flames or Storm will get a node pop that's either closer to Adder-occupied nodes or have to compete with Adders for the same node, and because they're not getting any opposition, will just send their entire alliance into that location to overwhelm unprepared Adders PUGs. What follows is angry shouts of "WHY COULDN'T YOU HOLD?", teams getting scattered apart, and all manners of other things that reduces the likelihood of an Adder win from the get-go.

2. It leaves the Adders in poor position to capture new node pops and causes tunnel vision. Inevitably, the lack of resistance means that when new nodes pop, the Adders are busy fighting an opposing GC that's come to take their node(s) in games where Flames and Storm aren't just fighting one another. At this point, many PUGs tunnel vision on defending their existing node that's at 10-15%, instead of being ready to take new nodes in other locations. This is also why many PUGs complain about Seal Rock being entirely RNG-dependent, when in reality it's about prioritizing the right objective at the right time to help mitigate RNG.

3. It deprives PUG Adders of the opportunity to develop offensive awareness. What many people don't realize about Seal Rock is that winning isn't solely dependent on your ability to defend and hold nodes, it's also dependent on the alliance's ability to recognize when to prioritize offense and get kills when not in combat. When Flames and Storm are fighting one another, there are key moments in when a full-strength Adder alliance can swoop in and destroy the two depleted opposing GCs after they've spent a lot of their energy fighting one another.

Instead, when people adopt the "defend and hold" strategy, they invite the stronger of the two opposing teams to build up a sizable lead against their weaker opponent and then be in prime position to attack Adders and/or capture new nodes. The top premade groups in Seal Rock excel at knowing when to take advantage of two depleted enemy GCs at the right time.

That's it. It's not skill, it's not RNG, it's a fatal over-reliance on the defend and hold mantra to the point where inexperienced PvPers think the word "Seize" in Seal Rock: Seize means that the key to victory is to avoid combat.

Lately I been noticing Flame getting rabidly worse and worse. Last few days it seems like a 33% toss up for any GC. Skill and dumb mistakes seems to even across all GC on Aether now.

Adders on Aether were bad since 2.X.

So this came up in discussion amongst a few flames. In pug groups you regularly see people who are higher rank quality players. When you get enough of them the match may become really lopsided in their favor. While I am not suggesting any of these players carry the team, it is beneficial to have some anchoring players. We have no chat going on, we did not place dead bodies in the adder team so we would get more kills, but we might have more players with multiple beneficial classes.

Now here is the point for adders. If we agree that each team may have only so many quality players. If all the quality players que together that leaves none left for pugs. Which means that as you see this week we have some adders with decent win totals and win %. Also from a quick glance 80 of the top 100 are from the same three servers.

I am a little jealous saw a couple matches where they were able to que in 3 full parties. Not sure what the wait time was like. Also Blubbers stop killing the flame sch in blue. Some garish yellow pld kept targeting me one match. Let the flames healers heal freely :)

Everyone has different experiences, matches, and plays at different times. No GC is always bad. Some players like to take those matters into their own hands. :)

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Everyone has different experiences, matches, and plays at different times. No GC is always bad. Some players like to take those matters into their own hands. :)

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I defintely feel a lot of recent sentiment is hyperbolic. Sure at beginning of 3.0 Adders was in the dog house. But as the serious pvp got ranked they wanted about a month. Now all three GC are mostly filled with people wanting tomes. It basically a toss up now. If you play enough games, your more or less guarantee to win 30% of the time. I feel a lot of the complaints are either people who hasnt pvp in several weeks to experience the shift in skill, or play like one match a day then extrapolate their conclusions from there.

I'm Malestrom on the Aether data center, and I honestly have to say that I normally see the Adders performing quite well no matter the time of day. I vividly remember Malestrom giving the Adders flak for having 0 points during one match, and I just knew they were going to bend us over the table next go around.

And they did. Mercilessly. I see them win more than anyone else.

As for Maelstrom...Faelstrom by day, Maelstrong by night. At least, in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

I'm Malestrom on the Aether data center, and I honestly have to say that I normally see the Adders performing quite well no matter the time of day. I vividly remember Malestrom giving the Adders flak for having 0 points during one match, and I just knew they were going to bend us over the table next go around.

And they did. Mercilessly. I see them win more than anyone else.

As for Maelstrom...Faelstrom by day, Maelstrong by night. At least, in my experience.

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It is always a good idea to look at the server make up of the parties when Adders are doing well/zerged one team into the ground. This week Gilgamesh and Adamantoise both had very active premade parties.

On Tuesday Flames suffered a long stream of losses and Mael in many cases won because the Adder premades were zerging us and any tomeliths that spawned in our area leaving Mael to claim any tomeliths that spawned in both the Mael and the Adder areas.

In one case this week we were at nearly 750 (300 ahead of both other GCs) when Adders zerged up to our spawn and beat us down to third place allowing Mael to win. When I checked the Adder roster I was unsurprised to find that party A was from Gilgamesh, B was from Adamantoise and C was 5 Adamantoise 1 Gilgamesh and 2 from other servers.

Adders are purety good on Primal, but I don't really see the whole point of OP. If SE would ''echo boost'' adders in his datacenter, it would be unfair to mael and flames. If he really doesn't like Adders, you have the option to switch to Mael or Flames but OP can keep on trending world wide, waste of time though! :3

I'm in Maelstorm. I did 20 Seal Rock matches last week. All 20 were in 3rd place. You win some, you lose some; just the way it goes.

Maelstrom is far worse. Just look at the PVP standings. It's 95% Flames, 5% Adders, 0% Maelstrom. The numbers don't lie.

https://i.gyazo.com/d1ef04a6543dfcec...11b5c524da.png

Adders are just a punchbag they need to start with 300 points ahead

Chaos Adder here, lost my sanity after my 200th game ;-; I am currently a Popoto.

Aether Maelstrom here.. Haven't seen a single win in the last 15 matches.

While there are stretches of suck, I don't think we're statistically that bad off overall, honestly. (Though I'm not saying we're great either. lol)
http://i.imgur.com/e1tZbeY.jpg
This is from today.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

While there are stretches of suck, I don't think we're statistically that bad off overall, honestly. (Though I'm not saying we're great either. lol)
http://i.imgur.com/e1tZbeY.jpg
This is from today.

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Glad to see your pretty calm and relaxed. I 100% agree you can get stretches where you just can't buy a win. Lately a few Flames have been acting like it is predetermined that they should win and watch out if the don't.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

Some garish yellow pld kept targeting me one match

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HAHAHAHAHAH that made me laugh!

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

Lately a few Flames have been acting like it is predetermined that they should win and watch out if the don't.

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Most the chasers transferred over to Flames from Adders and Mael this week and last week. The practiced and skill loyalists Flames are getting swamped.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It is always a good idea to look at the server make up of the parties when Adders are doing well/zerged one team into the ground. This week Gilgamesh and Adamantoise both had very active premade parties.
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You know, I actually never considered this. I'm in a linkshell that offers premades for Seize, so I'll probably become more active there when I'm not leveling other characters/jobs. I do go through the roster post-game, mostly out of curiosity, and I do recall not seeing a lot of Adamantoise people in any of the alliances. Now I'm interested in seeing how Maelstrom performs on Adamantoise, since that's my server.

Temporary GC buff based on weekly performance could be ok and viable. Just not a permanent one arbitrarily decided. Buff could be something like +10% magic/physical def.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

Temporary GC buff based on weekly performance could be ok and viable. Just not a permanent one arbitrarily decided. Buff could be something like +10% magic/physical def.

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Noooo way. No Echo-like buffs in PvP please.

The solution is already (possibly) on its way with the recall of GC restriction. Means the bag of players would become mixed. Although premades will become far easier to make, they'd have more of a chance to be stuck against each other than linked together.

Sidenote, BLUBBERS. OUR DREAMS ARE COMING TRUE.

Coming in at Number 5 at rarest mount Serpent Warsteed, with mounts that take 3000 commendations or 1 million mgp. Strangely one of the rarest titles was the 1k wins Maelstrom.