Why does Enochian have to be a pain in the neck?

I have seen some good points here but I agree that Enoc being tied to fire an blizz 4 is a bit too unfair with the already annoying requirement to maintain Ast and Umb with sub level spells, that said I do not want to see Enoc become a toggle I think it needs to stay very important activate, so here is my solution

Fire 4 and blizz 4 - remove the requirement to be under the Enoc effect, no other Direct change to these spells

Enochian - change this spell a 180 second cool down, Enoc will now allow Fire and blizz 4 to not only be cast with out Ast or Umb active but will apply and refresh there respective buffs, while under Enoc Blizz 4 would refresh the duration of Enoc up to a maximum of 90 seconds. triggering a refresh of Enoc causes the next fire 4 to deal 10% more damage.

these changes do 2 things. First they are a QoL change to an already convoluted rotation. but at the same time keep effective use of Enoc and buff interaction a higher source or damage.

I personally like where blm's are at. Micromanaging timers actually give me something to do. As far as I know we are the only class with true infinite mana resource. So I feel having to manage strict timers is fair. Yes it is frustrating when you misjudge the situation and a timer falls off but I usually blame myself when that happens, not the class. Sometimes you can pull off the optimum rotation, sometimes you have to cut it short. Learn when and where each is appropriate.

Or those interrupts when you are casting FireIV and must use Fire in order to go back to FireIV, situational when that happens but a tad annoying.
The changes to blm do make the class more exciting, but now just have to work harder against say summoners.... lol
I really have not noticed a huge change with enochian fix, but it still does help

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Originally Posted by Kiara

the reports from veteran BLMs are that they're not even close to Top Tier DPS. And if you can't get perfect usage? Your DPS plummets to the bottom.

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Okay, I actually talk to the blms that are good for the most part or atleast follow their comments on the forums, I am a good blm, and veteran one. Maintaining 1100+ dps on savage A3 is top tier damage and I'm not sure where you are coming from, the dps dips in the add phase only due to transition and in which case blm still is strong in that add phase, I can maintain 1100+ fairly consistently WITHOUT bard available to me, I'm sure other blms who have access to a freaking bard are doing better. BLM is great in every turn so far in savage. It's in a good place balance wise.

Ask ANY Other top tier blm in this thread (there are others besides me in here.) and you will likely get the same response.



The issue seems to be stemming from mid-tier/lower tier players who don't see this content due to dps checks/time or whatever, and for whatever reason these players seem to think the game should be balanced around them.

Also if you really believe that bard should be leading a fight with paeon then you really need to rethink that. Foe should be played on pull, regardless, there is absolutely no reason not to on any fight.

This patch is the best place blm has been in in a very long time. in 2.5 we were completely outclassed unless an aoe phase occurred and even then you were playing catch up at that point vs any competent melee (who are also aoeing in this phase harder than their ST). Even more annoyingly smns were complaiing that BLMS were op (lol) in that patch. This patch is the closest casters have EVER been to melee since 2.0 basic back when the first fire of astral fire gave you umbral ice cast times.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

This patch is the closest casters have EVER been to melee since 2.0 basic back when the first fire of astral fire gave you umbral ice cast times.

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Xisin I couldn't agree more. Having a blast with 3.0 BLM especially when I'm on top of the charts in savage XD.

Makes me sad to see all the negativity from so called blms.....

You guys really enjoy making stuff up huh ? Everyone always has this magical imaginary blm super uber friend that complains that the job they play aren't near top dps, despite parsers saying otherwise.

Enochian is the easiest to maintain buff, faceroll easy, and this "the most punishing" again if you find enochian hard to reset, it's because you're getting fire 4 happy. It's okay to let fire 4 go for a split moment to reset and dodge. If you know have to move for a few moment, use blizz 3, and time your blizz 4.

Again if your argument is you shouldn't have to learn the fight to maximaze dps then I'm not sure why you play a dps class because all of them have to do that to max dps.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

So yeah, your point about Foes not being used for the sake of "buffing" melees is invalid.

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No, you using these incredibly narrow, specific examples of how BLM interacts with other classes which may not even be part of the group composition in what is essentially a fraction of the available content at 60 when this thread is about the general functionality and ease of use for Black Mages relative to the amount of damage they put out.

Specific to Army's Paeon, you and I both and everybody reading this know it's highly effective in environments where targets are available for long periods of time, and that this represents the majority of content at present.

You're attempting to deflect a broad problem with minutiae and I won't accept it.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Savage A3 and A1 tend to disagree with you. Apoc is used to a great extend there and helps make healers life much easier which leads to more healing DPS.

Also, did Apoc recently receive a nerf where it's only usable in the first ten seconds of the fight or something ? I don't understand your comment on that part. Please elaborate.

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I said majority of fights. I never said it wasn't useful, ever. To elaborate on the ten seconds bit: In the majority of encounters there are very few circumstances in which a player can predict a window wherein a specific person will take so much magic damage that it is worth my time to stop blasting away to hit them with this buff.

If you feel you're making more and better use of it than I am, I would be quite interested to read a thread about how you're making use of it in the full spectrum of level 60 content available to groups and players.

But all this is, frankly, of trifling relevance to the broader scope of the discussion.

BLM utility isn't comparable to more universally recognized utility classes such as bard, so the idea that we should accept inferior damage output or an increased complexity of play for the utility we currently have is not rational. No one has ever claimed we were a utility class, and seeing you argue by proxy that it is, well, that's one of the more baffling things I've seen on these forums.

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Originally Posted by drizzle234

Xisin I couldn't agree more. Having a blast with 3.0 BLM especially when I'm on top of the charts in savage XD.

Makes me sad to see all the negativity from so called blms.....

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Link to parses, please.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

Okay, I actually talk to the blms that are good for the most part or atleast follow their comments on the forums, I am a good blm, and veteran one. Maintaining 1100+ dps on savage A3 is top tier damage and I'm not sure where you are coming from, the dps dips in the add phase only due to transition and in which case blm still is strong in that add phase, I can maintain 1100+ fairly consistently WITHOUT bard available to me...

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You still haven't answered my questions. I will restate them. I would like specific answers.

Do you think it's OK for Black Mage, a pure DPS class with zero support capability besides EFAE (and, to make Sora happy, rarely Apoc), to be substantially more complicated and demanding than most melee classes, while being flat out inferior damage to them?

Do you dispute the idea that Black Mages do less damage than melee classes of equal skill in single target environments and more or less level playing fields? (Single target means you're hitting one thing the majority of the time, plus thundercloud proc rotating, even if there's more than one target to choose from.) I'll ask this one another way, to help you answer: Do you feel like you are doing as much or more damage as melee classes in these encounters?

Do you dispute the idea that managing astral ice, astral fire, enochian, our mp bar, and thunder casts/procs, coupled with our lengthy cast times on everything, makes Black Mage a more difficult class to play than those same melee classes?

To simply answer you yes I'm fine with this. LEtme break it down for you i guess.

The dev team balances casters around foe requiem. So lets go into detail

WITHOUT foe blm will be doing slightly less dps than melee, this is fine.

WITH foe blm will be doing slightly more dps than a melee, this is fine

WITH BV foe blm will be doing way more ST dps than a melee, this is also fine.

Foe isnt always up but should be maintained, now this part is the annoying part to me but I've lived with it, not every bard gives a shit about caster dps, resulting in pug bards not singing or w.e We can't really control that though.

To answer your question, yes in certain encounters, such as Savage A3 first half, Ravana whole fight etc I do more damage than than my melee counterparts, here is why, in Ravana EX blm burst is amplified HARD if you time it with his swords out + charging liberation. BLM also is arguable the best burster in game currently, I think it is the best burster tbh, it also deals with adds the best... Hell in savage A1 i would occasionally accidentally kill an add due to 2 crits in a row.

I honestly don't think there is anything complicated or convoluted about enochian, our base rotation is rather simple Fire 4 x2 -> Fire -> Fire 4 x2. Our opener isn;t that complicated either, Sharpcast, leyline, Fire 3, enochian, fire 1, RS/pot, fire 4x3, Firestarter for AF, convert, fire 4x3 blizz 3 blizz 4. This isnt complex, this is instead just a matter of planning ahead of time, something that casters simply have to do, smns do this too with their dreadwyrm phases.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

To simply answer you yes I'm fine with this. LEtme break it down for you i guess.

The dev team balances casters around foe requiem. So lets go into detail

WITHOUT foe blm will be doing slightly less dps than melee, this is fine.

WITH foe blm will be doing slightly more dps than a melee, this is fine

WITH BV foe blm will be doing way more ST dps than a melee, this is also fine.

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So then, you're of the opinion that BLMs are not an optimal choice if a Bard is not part of the group composition? That's incidentally my opinion, and I think it's evidence of a problem.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

To answer your question, yes in certain encounters, such as Savage A3 first half, Ravana whole fight etc I do more damage than than my melee counterparts, here is why, in Ravana EX blm burst is amplified HARD if you time it with his swords out + charging liberation. BLM also is arguable the best burster in game currently, I think it is the best burster tbh, it also deals with adds the best... Hell in savage A1 i would occasionally accidentally kill an add due to 2 crits in a row.

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I'm surprised you left out seeing wing. Ravana is skewed in our favor in a way no other encounter is, at present. It isn't really a good representative of overall BLM performance. I agree with your statement about burst, however. In that respect we are either king of the mountain or tied for it.

That aside, is clear from how you worded this statement that you aren't topping the meters in most other encounters, and that's nothing to be a shamed of - you could be at the absolute limit of player skill, and still not do that. I have said before that I do not necessarily think that black mages need to be the best damage solution in most encounters or superior to melee, but that leads me to...

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Originally Posted by Xisin

I honestly don't think there is anything complicated or convoluted about enochian, our base rotation is rather simple Fire 4 x2 -> Fire -> Fire 4 x2. Our opener isn;t that complicated either, Sharpcast, leyline, Fire 3, enochian, fire 1, RS/pot, fire 4x3, Firestarter for AF, convert, fire 4x3 blizz 3 blizz 4. This isnt complex, this is instead just a matter of planning ahead of time, something that casters simply have to do, smns do this too with their dreadwyrm phases.

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This isn't quite what I asked. I asked you if you thought it was more complicated than what other primary dps classes deal with. The entire basis of my frustration is that in most encounters I have to juggle a mechanic that is much more punishing and complicated than what other primary dps classes chew on.

I like to call out Dragoons as an example of this, not as a mark of shame, but because their class is honestly exactly everything it needs to be. Their damage is good, the crit buff they bring to raids is stellar, and their class mechanics demand attention for them to operate at their peak, but a single missed chain doesn't necessarily grind them to a screeching halt - they have a "second chance" with their rotation, as it were.

So when you related this to what I call the Black Mage's "Silver Medal Damage" (still good), and the whole package loses much of its appeal, and not simply for me.

So what I want for Black Mage is to straight up do as much damage as melee to offset the inherent complications and punishment we all labor under the perpetual shadow of, or I want the class to be easier to play.

My ideal change is this: Blizzard IV behaves like everything else in our goddamn toolkit. Specifically, it doesn't cancel midcast if astral ice or enochian fall off. That's inconsistent with how re-application of astral fire or ice work. We've all seen astral fire III fall off completely, only to be refreshed in full by a fire I. The server errs in our favor.

When I first realized that Blizzard IV behaved in the opposite way, I wanted to punch a hole in my monitor. That nerd rage is still with me now.

The parse positions more often than not show which dps had to do mechanics more (vacums taking a dump on whatever dps draws the short straw, stuff like that) if i dont get vacumed in A4 ya, I'll top it. A1? I top that one too. its a great turreting fight. It's not as bad as you'd like to say it is. A2 is fairly undisputed toward smn, so is A1 ( I think)

The only REAL problem I have with blm atm is limit breaking, we are by far the most punished dps for lbing, hell i think i lose dps by just thinking about metoering, smns get off easy here with their dots.

I give up, Xisin. You're either avoiding my questions or have comprehension issues that make you impractical to speak with over anything complex. Subsequently, I can't discuss this with you, and I mean that in a literal sense - the discussion cannot happen, because you can't or won't answer questions that are essential to the point I am trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

I like to call out Dragoons as an example of this, not as a mark of shame, but because their class is honestly exactly everything it needs to be. Their damage is good, the crit buff they bring to raids is stellar, and their class mechanics demand attention for them to operate at their peak, but a single missed chain doesn't necessarily grind them to a screeching halt - they have a "second chance" with their rotation, as it were.

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I am genuinely curious about what you mean by "second chance". For my own benefit, I would like to know how it differs from blm.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

Link to parses, please.



You still haven't answered my questions. I will restate them. I would like specific answers.

Do you think it's OK for Black Mage, a pure DPS class with zero support capability besides EFAE (and, to make Sora happy, rarely Apoc), to be substantially more complicated and demanding than most melee classes, while being flat out inferior damage to them?

I haven't answered this question because we disagree on the basis of it, I don't think blm is any harder or easier than the melee, right off the bat there we disagree, I also disagree that blm is inferior damage. You make assumptions that I think are incorrect in this question.

Do you dispute the idea that Black Mages do less damage than melee classes of equal skill in single target environments and more or less level playing fields? (Single target means you're hitting one thing the majority of the time, plus thundercloud proc rotating, even if there's more than one target to choose from.) I'll ask this one another way, to help you answer: Do you feel like you are doing as much or more damage as melee classes in these encounters?

I answered this already. It depends on the fight, in A1, Ravana, parts of A3 we do, A4 is based entirely off who lucks out on mechanics... Other fights we don't

Do you dispute the idea that managing astral ice, astral fire, enochian, our mp bar, and thunder casts/procs, coupled with our lengthy cast times on everything, makes Black Mage a more difficult class to play than those same melee classes?

Again, I don't think it is any more or less complex, other dps get punished for screwing up, the only time our punishment is severe is if we screw the pooch on the first enochian rotation and that is most likely because you interrupted a cast, got greedy and did the full rotation anyway when you should have ended the chian with 1 fire 4 less, resulting in you dropping out of AF before you finished the blizzard 3 cast. Difficulty is entirely subjective, it's a flimsy argument to run with and no this job isn't difficult for me. I haven't played a melee class in HW so I can't offer an educated opinion on the difficulty of dragoon, monk or ninja other than what my static mates have to say about it.

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Happy? I never really avoided any questions. After looking at your lodestone you can't really be the judge of class difficulty either, you seem to strictly be blm atm. How far have you progressed? your lodestone achievements are blocked.

I've been considering leveling BLM after AST is done and was looking for info on how people feel about it, but i feel the need to say that whoever said that a bard's first song priority is paeon is quite silly.

My song priority has been, and always will be, requiem. I strategically turn it on and off to keep it going for as long as possible while popping battle voice at key moments. It is, as xisin said, a DPS' job to learn every fight and plan ahead in order to maximize their contribution to the party. It could be said that requiem is my song mechanic.

If there are no casters, i generally dont sing until i see the healer's MP get dangerously low, or if someone asks for paeon (which is almost never in HW). Using Paeon at the start of the fight would be a really, really dumb thing to do. I'm doing so much DPS now that I feel like my damage contribution is more beneficial to the group than using paeon and ballad just because it's there.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

If there are no casters, i generally dont sing until i see the healer's MP get dangerously low, or if someone asks for paeon (which is almost never in HW). Using Paeon at the start of the fight would be a really, really dumb thing to do. I'm doing so much DPS now that I feel like my damage contribution is more beneficial to the group than using paeon and ballad just because it's there.

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Side note and further derailment:

Good healers love Foe Requiem. It drives me bonkers when BRDs sit on their MP while I contribute a nice chunk of DPS. Some of these BRDs are just terrible and sing for no one, ever; some of them just go through the dungeon saving MP for a Ballad that I never, ever need.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Side note and further derailment:

Good healers love Foe Requiem. It drives me bonkers when BRDs sit on their MP while I contribute a nice chunk of DPS. Some of these BRDs are just terrible and sing for no one, ever; some of them just go through the dungeon saving MP for a Ballad that I never, ever need.

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I've been playing bard since 2.0 and not a single healer has ever asked me for requiem, nor has any non-healer suggested that I should keep requiem up for the healers, nor do I ever see any other bard keeping requiem up in a casterless group. I can tell you this, though: if a healer wanted requiem and asked for it, they'd get it in a heartbeat. Maybe you should say something to them, lol.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Right now the 2 biggest problems are that if either Enochian or AF/UI drop during your F4/B4 cast, you lose the cast. And that the rotation basically demands that you skim the very edge of the timers in order to output enough dps to warrant using the new spells... Versus just taking the 5% bonus and basically using the old rotation, replacing B1 w/ B4 as filler in the UI phase.

The source of this issue is that F4/B4 in no way help you maintain the buffs required to keep them going. This is understandable as SE wants us to continue using F1 during the Enochian rotation. The issue is that you need to fit 2 F4's and an F1 into 10 seconds. 2*3+2.5 = 8.5s, that seems fine in theory. Add in the 0.5s initial latency after switching into AF3 before you can cast F4, we now have 9s. Add in 100ms latency between casts and we have 9.3s out of a 10s timer... Watch any BLM executing the "perfect" Enochian rotation and you'll see how AF3 ends up with 0-1 seconds when it is refreshed. IE its being refreshed as it falls off.

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If the concern is losing Fire IV casts amidst the madness, I say keep Fire IV/Blizzard IV gated behind Enochian, but make them instant cast with a cooldown. Not something terribly long. Maybe 6 seconds. This way you get use out of the spell without getting screwed over by cast time, BLMs get something they can use while moving that is not lolScathe, and can plan how to squeeze it into your rotation while giving a bit more leeway while also requiring some planning (you might actually be able to get Thunder III in there, to boot).

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The simplest solution is to add something which helps perpetuate AF/UI and Enochian across various abilities.
As Yoshida hinted at in the Live Letter, making the Thunder spells add ~3s to Enochian would allow us to readily incorporate them into the rotation.
Subsequently we could add a secondary effect to F4 which makes the next F1 instant cast with the original mana cost. This means you could throw as many as 3 F4's in a row, then instant cast F1 to refresh the AF3 timer... However you'd still be limited to 4 F4's per cycle due to mana constraints, so there is no dps increase under ideal conditions, however you can refresh AF3 much more readily, AND you are not as punished by movement since every F4 gives you an instant F1.

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Since part of the problem is movement, why not change Enhanced Scathe to do something that help on that end? Have it add 5 seconds to AF/UI when used, or hell, have it extend Enochian in some way. Maybe both? >.>

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

I've been playing bard since 2.0 and not a single healer has ever asked me for requiem, nor has any non-healer suggested that I should keep requiem up for the healers, nor do I ever see any other bard keeping requiem up in a casterless group. I can tell you this, though: if a healer wanted requiem and asked for it, they'd get it in a heartbeat. Maybe you should say something to them, lol.

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You need to play with more active healers :)

I actually have a polite macro for Foe request. What's sad is that I initially made it for use on my BLM because I couldn't get any DF BRDs to sing without asking.

As a healer I love it when Bard sings Foe's I like to dps. :3

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If the concern is losing Fire IV casts amidst the madness, I say keep Fire IV/Blizzard IV gated behind Enochian, but make them instant cast with a cooldown. Not something terribly long. Maybe 6 seconds. This way you get use out of the spell without getting screwed over by cast time, BLMs get something they can use while moving that is not lolScathe, and can plan how to squeeze it into your rotation while giving a bit more leeway while also requiring some planning (you might actually be able to get Thunder III in there, to boot).
Since part of the problem is movement, why not change Enhanced Scathe to do something that help on that end? Have it add 5 seconds to AF/UI when used, or hell, have it extend Enochian in some way. Maybe both? >.>

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Those ideas have already been suggested in the past, and though some such changes would address the current BLM issues, everything seems to be falling on deaf ears.

What I think alot of people are conflating here is the difference between "This class is fun" with "This class does a lot of damage". Numbers wise its fine.

However in terms of playstyle, it has radically changed to using a strict rotation, almost as far as bard has had to change to being a 'caster'. I do think it gets conflated with Enochian being a problem, when what I really feel is the issue is Astral Fire. But in general blm went from a caster where you manged procs to F4 -> F4 -> F1.

In comparison to mnk/drg, I've swapped to mnk for now. Mnk is far easier and less stressful to play. GL can be annoying Form Shift helps to mitigate losing it, and from a playstyle aspect losing it doesn't suddenly change your rotation. As for drg, I am still leveling, but BOTD is more relaxed in that you should only really need to use the ability once, unless the fight resets. It's upkeep doesn't involve you hitting it, so if you mess up, it is usually available to restart.

Well. I am making my decision tomorrow if I am to level my SMN/Scholar ( seriously, both dps and healer? Cheatz :P Not fair! ) or BLM as my main.
People seem awfully mixed on the new BLM. I just love the playstyle a lot ( I am at 53 with my BLM. SMN at 51 ). But I am terribly worried that I will end up at 60 with it, and just hate the Enochian rotation.

Do you still get to use procs as often as with the old rotation? Or is fire 4 just prioritized over all? I love proc based gameplay, it's just really satisfying getting dem procs and blowing things up :).

Honestly? Git gud. If you like having no wiggle room and having to know an encounter like the back of your hand and being punished severely for slip ups, then you'll have to stick with BLM the way it is now. It's a timer micromanage job now and I just don't see a mass revamp on the horizon.

It's not easy to play now. Like, at all. And some people can find that really fun. Others really, sincerely don't. And that's totally fine. SMN puts out great damage with about 90% less effort than BLM and is almost as flashy now along with being all magic themed. Try it out!

One thing I do think can't be fixed with any amount of git gud is Fire IV/Blizzard IV being interrupted if Enochian or AF/UI falls off mid-cast. I understand why it's made that way, but it's ugly and I hate it. If my Blizzard IV is .30 seconds from finishing its cast and THEN Enochian falls off it feels like it should finish anyway and just not refresh the buff. That way you get SOME damage.

There isn't really an annoying fight outside of Neverreap. Sorry but "git gud" is valid if you're having trouble; other people are clearly not having trouble, so the problem can't be the class itself.

If you just don't enjoy it, then... sorry? I enjoy it. Other people enjoy it. Tossing a ctrl+z on the entire new rotation because some people don't enjoy it as much is not a real solution. Maybe try a different job. They all got neat new toys, maybe you'll like one of them more.

I don't know if it's been brought up, but I just wish that enochian or astral fire/umbral ice falling off wouldn't -cancel- your BIV/FIV casts. I think that would go a long way to making it less punishing. Doing the same for Fire I except refreshing AFIII as long as it was cast while AFIII is up would similarly help ease the strict timing required.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

A NIN should never really lose Huton because of movement or mechanics, as they can refresh it whenever they are unable to attack an enemy via actually using the Huton Ninjutsu (whose 3-step lag issues aren't a problem when they can't attack anyway).

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Not to mention an easy recover by using Kassatsu then apply Huton, what would really be OP is if Kassatsu actually increased our DPS by a larger percentage when in Huton, lol.

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Originally Posted by Hagwitch

One thing I do think can't be fixed with any amount of git gud is Fire IV/Blizzard IV being interrupted if Enochian or AF/UI falls off mid-cast. I understand why it's made that way, but it's ugly and I hate it. If my Blizzard IV is .30 seconds from finishing its cast and THEN Enochian falls off it feels like it should finish anyway and just not refresh the buff. That way you get SOME damage.

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This is what I truly hate the most. Im in mid-cast of casting Blizzard 4 then Enochian just falls and I have to pray that I make that last second cast or it's back to my 2.0 rotation until I can get it back. Also from what I've been hearing BLMs have been getting angry in AS1, and switching to SMN. So we might see a buff come next patch.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

This is what I truly hate the most. Im in mid-cast of casting Blizzard 4 then Enochian just falls and I have to pray that I make that last second cast or it's back to my 2.0 rotation until I can get it back. Also from what I've been hearing BLM's have been getting anger in AS1, and switching to SMN. So we might see a buff come next patch.

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BLM is really strong in AS1, and you can keep a perfect enochian rotation in it, even with resin bombs and moving the adds.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Well. I am making my decision tomorrow if I am to level my SMN/Scholar ( seriously, both dps and healer? Cheatz :P Not fair! ) or BLM as my main.
People seem awfully mixed on the new BLM. I just love the playstyle a lot ( I am at 53 with my BLM. SMN at 51 ). But I am terribly worried that I will end up at 60 with it, and just hate the Enochian rotation.

Do you still get to use procs as often as with the old rotation? Or is fire 4 just prioritized over all? I love proc based gameplay, it's just really satisfying getting dem procs and blowing things up :).

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No you don't get a spare second to hit your procs and you dont get as many of them and if you do get the procs using them is a huge risk of enochian dropping off, 5 years of playing BLM i've hung up my staff and picked up the book, sod this class and the heavy movement fights I don't play to get angry.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

No you don't get a spare second to hit your procs and you dont get as many of them and if you do get the procs using them is a huge risk of enochian dropping off, 5 years of playing BLM i've hung up my staff and picked up the book, sod this class and the heavy movement fights I don't play to get angry.

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Well. :/....
That's incredibly disappointing to hear. The proc gameplay is my favorite part of BLM...

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

No you don't get a spare second to hit your procs and you dont get as many of them and if you do get the procs using them is a huge risk of enochian dropping off, 5 years of playing BLM i've hung up my staff, sod this class and the heavy movement fights I don't play to get angry.

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This is incorrect. You have spare time to use procs with BLM, to the tune of 2 procs per average cycle unless you used Thunder after B4 on the current cycle, and not only that, you can/should replace F4s with procs in your rotation if the situation calls for it (TC proc late enough in the cycle that would fall off before B3, Firestarter used as a mobility tool purposefully to rep a F4 in that cycle).

Procs are far more annoying to deal with and less satisfying than in ARR, where they were always a positive in every way, but they are still very useful and will get frequent use in any encounter, especially real fights where you can't turret 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

This is incorrect. You have spare time to use procs with BLM, to the tune of 2 procs per average cycle unless you used Thunder after B4 on the current cycle, and not only that, you can/should replace F4s with procs in your rotation if the situation calls for it (TC proc late enough in the cycle that would fall off before B3, Firestarter used as a mobility tool purposefully to rep a F4 in that cycle).

Procs are far more annoying to deal with and less satisfying than in ARR, where they were always a positive in every way, but they are still very useful and will get frequent use in any encounter, especially real fights where you can't turret 100% of the time.

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Tried that it just throws the rotation out the window and can be quite damned confsuing making you lose your place then enochian falls off, tbh it's a shite mechanic but instead of complaining about it after 5 years of being BLM i'll just move on, Good luck with it.

Currently there are only 2 viable play styles,

The first is the Enoc rotation, its the top DPS IF executed perfectly but is not always a viable option, a good example is the Oppressor fight, if you get targeted by the mechanics a lot then you would not be able to turret making this rotation useless.

second is modified ARR, you use the ARR rotation and save Enoc for phases when you need a burst of hard hitting dps. this rotation is lower DPS but is much more forgiving of fights that force you to move a-lot, to maximize this rotation you need to keep Thunder-3 on as many targets as you can to do this only cast Thunder-3 after using Blizz-3 this way you will regen the mana spent and will not eat into your fire casts but do not get greedy, you will get 2 MAYBE 3 targets with Thunder-3 on them before you need to to let UI run its course to top off your mana.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

If you just don't enjoy it, then... sorry? I enjoy it. Other people enjoy it. Tossing a ctrl+z on the entire new rotation because some people don't enjoy it as much is not a real solution. Maybe try a different job. They all got neat new toys, maybe you'll like one of them more.

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You don't like it so try something else is perfectly valid on a brand new job or game. Try something, don't like it, try something else. But when you main'd the job for 2 years and they abruptly completely change how it feels and plays, that's taking something away from players. Of course I'm unhappy about it. It's exactly the reason I left my last game, they drastically altered how my favorite job played, and I couldn't find anything else I liked as much.

Telling people to get good or get lost isn't helpful or fair to people who feel as though they now lost a major part of the game for them.

Now the real question. How do other blms fare against waukkeon in never reap? Even nunyenuc is a pain in the ass, though manipulation helps tremendously there.

Most of the time I can pretty competently juggle enochian. Sometimes it goes wahooni shaped, but even when I am using it successfully I can still recognize that it is a terribly designed mechanic.

If for some reason you do lose it early it's a huge dps loss. As someone who also plays drg in endgame content I have similar gripes about blood of the dragoon but for different reasons.

Enochian is a very complex mechanic. It isn't a deep one, just complex. And failure to utilize it correctly can be a huge loss in damage.

Blood of the dragon is also a ridiculously complex mechanic, but it actually is not a huge loss in dps when it falls off or fails.

Enochian is frustrating because failure to use it optimally is a huge loss, blood of the dragon is frustrating because optimal use is not a very large gain.

In both cases the developers don't seem to understand that these mechanics are needlessly complex, and to be honest, the SE devs working on this game seem to be really bad at knowing the difference between depth and complexity.

Too many things in this game are needlessly complex, and yet somehow this game is still amazingly shallow.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Now the real question. How do other blms fare against waukkeon in never reap?

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Hrhr. Yeah that thing. I hate it.

Tho it is predictable. While it stands you only need to avoid tornados. Move at a convenient time and far out of their reach, they won't hit you. Only problem is when they spawn close to you. Adds in that phase can be downed without much effort, you just need to time casts so that you don't begin casts that won't land anymore.

When it begins to move don't keep Enochian up at all cost. You're actually more flexible with 2.0 rotation for adds, won't lose buffs and casts to RNG. Keep an eye at boss movement, it picks random player's position as its new movement direction at the edges. Easy to avoid if you know what to look for.


But this actually proves your point. That is a dungeon boss encounter yet it requires careful observation just to be able to do your everyday rotation, making the whole thing immensely complex for no good reason. Bah.

You know, I wonder what you guys think of DreadWyrm Trance ...

You have 30 secs to activate it when available before Aethertrail Attunement falls off. Lets not forget that Aethertrail Attunement has to be built up where each time you up the stack, the timer resets to 30 secs.

DreadWyrm Trance then last for 15 secs during which you get +10% damage, it's really the only practical time to use Ruin III and Deathflare only works during Trance and wipes the Trance buff when used.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

snip.

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Enochian and dread stance arent comparable because you dont need to keep dread strance up in order to even have a rotation worth using

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Originally Posted by hallena

Enochian and dread stance arent comparable because you dont need to keep dread strance up in order to even have a rotation worth using

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Really? So I can just ignore the ability?