Why can you do Savage Coil unsynced?

Who cares if people unysync old content? You had your exclusivity back when it was new just like you have your exclusivity now with current content.

I like it more when people unsync old content because even if it's way easier than intented they atlast did it themself instead of paying others to do it for you.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Who cares if people unysync old content? You had your exclusivity back when it was new just like you have your exclusivity now with current content.

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Where I care is: why do PvPer get exclusivity on their seasonal items when we raider don't get any exclusivity and always end share with casus?

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Originally Posted by Arutan

Where I care is: why do PvPer get exclusivity on their seasonal items when we raider don't get any exclusivity and always end share with casus?

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I don't understand that either but if I had to guess it's just there to get people in that mode in the first place. Another possible reason why they still exist is probably because people barely recognice others having those items (some might not evem know they exist). So I assume SE thinks the playerbase is ok with them because no one is asking for them to be made available for everyone. (except for that minion)

It's the problem of the mentality differences in there playerbase so regardless of what is done by the devs there will always be a group of people unhappy about something. (and most likely let them know about it)
That's why I think people should enjoy their exclusivity while it's there and move on to the "new" one once the "old" becomes easier to get.

You want exclusivity? That's easy to fix: Ask SE to permanently take down the savage raids 3-6h after release or as soon as the 1st group clears.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Who cares if people unysync old content? You had your exclusivity back when it was new just like you have your exclusivity now with current content.

I like it more when people unsync old content because even if it's way easier than intented they atlast did it themself instead of paying others to do it for you.

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There was absolutely no need to make Savage SCoB unsyncable. That tier was specifically made to challenge the people that cleared SCoB even further, and from an unsync point of view it doesn't really bring in a considerable amount of new things for people to experience. People do them for the titles these days, not for an experience. The only thing it did was invalidate the hundreds of hours some people invested into clearing the hardest raid content up to date. Ofc the majority of the people will be happy that more titles are within their reach, but those titles were never created for the general populace in the first place.

I don't disagree with unsyncing other things, however. Unsyncing Savage SCoB is just a silly thing to do and kinda destroys the purpose imo. Unsyncing those fights don't really "add up to the experience", but they do invalidate the effort spent by the marginal group of players that invested countless hours into getting those titles.

Being a part of the group of people that DID NOT learn coil Savage (mostly because a number of our raid group members didn't care for it), I absolutely have to side with those that are annoyed that it can be done unsynced.

It's like giving someone a 1st place ribbon in a race for coming first in high school, then later down the line when the 2nd or 3rd place racers become olympic atheletes - you also give them a 1st place ribbon for the same race.. It's a false reward for a goal that they didn't actually achieve.

The point of it was to give people a challenge to work towards, and giving them a fitting "good job, you beat the hardest content in the game" reward.
Once you start handing that out just because someone zerged through it while they were over levelled and over geared, you trivialize the reward for everyone that did actually beat the fight at the appropriate level.

In a similar sense you can look at the White Raven fight back in 1.0... If they were to hand out white raven earrings for any other reason - you suddenly trivialize the effort and time that people went through to get those rewards.

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Originally Posted by Core1019

Dand the title isn't worth much

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Pretty much the same can be said of 99% of all game titles IMO.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

Who cares if people unysync old content? You had your exclusivity back when it was new just like you have your exclusivity now with current content.

I like it more when people unsync old content because even if it's way easier than intented they atlast did it themself instead of paying others to do it for you.

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This isn't about fairness, or a "why does X guy get it lucky by doing it unsynced", it's about healthy game design and keeping rewards consistant. I don't understand why we are promoting the idea of outdating content, and by allowing the content to be unsynced means that the content as it was is destroyed. I can no longer go back and take the second coil challenge for the titles anymore because there is no point, the reward has lost all meaning because the assumption is that you did it unsynced.

The same goes for alexander tank mounts, the gobwalker no longer means anything because the manipulator is easy now, and come stormblood, the mounts will be on casual farm as much as 2.0 ex primals are farmed for ponies.

This is not a good thing, content dies because it is forced to, not because the community loses interest.

Your effort isn't invalidated. You just perceive it that way out of pettiness. Seriously. Stop worrying about what other people do and get. If you are proud of the title, be proud of it. Someone else having it should have zero bearing on that.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Your effort isn't invalidated. You just perceive it that way out of pettiness. Seriously. Stop worrying about what other people do and get. If you are proud of the title, be proud of it. Someone else having it should have zero bearing on that.

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The effort is invalidated though, it isn't that it is unfair that someone can do it unsynced, rather that the trophy becomes meaningless. We aren't talking about people and pettiness here, we are talking about game systems and a precident that content will quickly die and the effort put in now will likely become meaningless very quickly. I don't care if someone does the content unsynced, thats up to them, I do care that the devs think that it is ok to give the same reward for unsynced as synced though, especially on content specifically designed to provide a challenge

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The effort is invalidated though, it isn't that it is unfair that someone can do it unsynced, rather that the trophy becomes meaningless. We aren't talking about people and pettiness here, we are talking about game systems and a precident that content will quickly die and the effort put in now will likely become meaningless very quickly. I don't care if someone does the content unsynced, thats up to them, I do care that the devs think that it is ok to give the same reward for unsynced as synced though, especially on content specifically designed to provide a challenge

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Considering you have achievements hidden on the lodestone anyway, no one would even know you had the titles or had completed the content.

You can't burn T9S. You just can't. You still have to follow the mechanics, fire/ice WILL kill you with less than 6 people. Going unsynced just makes the dps checks easier, thats all.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I don't care if someone does the content unsynced, thats up to them, I do care that the devs think that it is ok to give the same reward for unsynced as synced though, especially on content specifically designed to provide a challenge

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Why? You have a cool thing. Why does it matter if other people have the cool thing? It doesn't make it less cool. That's what I'm trying to get at here.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Why? You have a cool thing. Why does it matter if other people have the cool thing? It doesn't make it less cool. That's what I'm trying to get at here.

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As I said, it's not about other people having the cool thing, it is about what the content represents. If SCOB (savage) couldn't be done unsynced, then it would represent a piece of challenging content that upon completing would give a title that objectively represents having beaten a piece of challenging content. Given that I can do it unsynced, I guess I could do it synced, but the reward is no longer meaningful if I do it synced, there is no benefit to it over unsynced. Yes I have my own moral pride, but that is not a reward representive of the amount of effort that goes into practicing savage coil, and at this point, it is the only reward that the content has left.

Let me reiterate that I don't care if people do it synced, I care that the content designed to be difficult isn't killed by unsync.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

As I said, it's not about other people having the cool thing

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You say this, and then follow it up with your bit about:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

a title that objectively represents having beaten a piece of challenging content.

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(I've snipped quite a bit for post length, sorry)

See, it IS about other people having the title, and the distribution of that title somehow taking away the value of yours. That's what this ALWAYS boils down to when it comes up in a game. Whatever the game, whatever the content, people place value on exclusivity, and they get jollies out of other people not having the things they have.

The problem is that the value of things like this are completely subjective to the person who has them. For some, the value is in that it means they did a hard thing. In this case, nothing changes when unsynced happens. They did the hard thing, and nothing can change that. For you, the value is in that it means other people can see you did a hard thing. It's not about the challenge. It's about SHOWING OFF the challenge and wanting acknowledgement of it. For me? If I had the title, my value in it would be that it sounds cool.

Different people value such things differently.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

See, it IS about other people having the title, and the distribution of that title somehow taking away the value of yours. That's what this ALWAYS boils down to when it comes up in a game. Whatever the game, whatever the content, people place value on exclusivity, and they get jollies out of other people not having the things they have.

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Its like you haven't even read what I said, it is not about people at all, it is about the content itself. Having unsynced functionally destroys the intended purpose of the content and makes it so that getting any kind of reward out of its intended purpose a case of moral pride, nowhere in that did I talk about people or exclusivity, rather development decisions and intended purpose. By admitting that unsyncing it is ok is admitting that the content is dead, and I'd rather it not be, because it very easily doesn't have to be.

I think that you are just upset that people want to take away your chance at facerolling originally hard content, because the way you are talking about "different people want different things" really comes across as "I want difficult content to become easy so I can do it easily"

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Its like you haven't even read what I said, it is not about people at all, it is about the content itself. Having unsynced functionally destroys the intended purpose of the content and makes it so that getting any kind of reward out of its intended purpose a case of moral pride, nowhere in that did I talk about people or exclusivity, rather development decisions and intended purpose. By admitting that unsyncing it is ok is admitting that the content is dead, and I'd rather it not be, because it very easily doesn't have to be.

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Content is supposed to be fun. The people who do it synced love a challenge, and that's their fun. The people who do it unsynced might not really like a challenge, but still want to beat it, and that's still their fun. When you say you don't like unsynced and that the game shouldn't have it, you're taking away someone's fun and that's not really fair. When you say the people who beat it unsynced shouldn't have a title, that's still not fair. Just think of the title as an afterthought or plus. Sure, some people do unsynced specifically for the title, and that's fine. This game was designed so everybody has a chance at everything via alternative ways. Like minions for example, you could get a minion by doing such and such to get it, or you can fork over cash/gil. You could say that's not fair, they barely had to do anything to get that minion while I had to do the content. That doesn't matter, you chose a different way than them. These trivial things will never even affect you, so why should it matter to you?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Why? You have a cool thing. Why does it matter if other people have the cool thing? It doesn't make it less cool. That's what I'm trying to get at here.

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It actually does. It's part of what defines cool...

Even in school you wear some new fashion it's cool. when Everyone's wearing it. It's not cool anymore..

Smart phones used to be a cool thing. Now there just a thing. Everyone has one. The coolness of owning one was gone years ago.

So yeah things are less cool the more people have them...

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Originally Posted by Dzian

It actually does. It's part of what defines cool...

Even in school you wear some new fashion it's cool. when Everyone's wearing it. It's not cool anymore..

Smart phones used to be a cool thing. Now there just a thing. Everyone has one. The coolness of owning one was gone years ago.

So yeah things are less cool the more people have them...

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I mean, I remember feeling that way when I was a kid, sure. Not much since, though.

Did them recently with my group. With the calm before 4.0 theres not much to do atm

t6 and t8 are literally straight burn, no mechs at all.
t7 we still had one petrifaction I think, only mech. might've had one voice as well, near the end. other than just burn, ignore ogres and it dies before shriek
t9 is straight burn. only mech is dropping meteors, same as normal. ignored everything else

do understand what OP means tho. this is content introduced only for the purpose of being an extra challenge. if it's not a challenge what purpose does it serve.

people saying you still have to do the mechs in these fights... be honest, you really don't

I had this idea a while ago, never bothered to create a topic, but it seems to fit this one.

http://i.imgur.com/I2oymcx.png

If you clear the content unsynched, you get the title.
If you clear synched but with higher gear, say at 275/270 synched down to 135/130, you get a silver crown title.
If you clear with the minimum iLevel option (which forces synched), you get a golden crown title. The same applies if you beat when it's progression/at patch (no min ilvl stipulated yet or gear still current).

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Originally Posted by Kiyashi

Good lord why the heck did someone re-bump this 2 year old topic

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Oh jeez, I didn't even notice this was a necro thread until your post. I have a bit more sympathy for the people of two years ago, who still felt that content was fresh and wanted to enjoy their personal achievements a little longer. At this point, no one should care.

Raiding has always been, and always will be, about being the first. For the present, you have the highest ilevel, but eventually the cap will be raised and every Tom, Dick and Stanly will have that ilevel just from clearing the MSQ. For the present, you have access to unique titles/minions/mounts, but eventually those will be accessible to everyone. As a raider, you have to accept this and simply enjoy being first at the next thing. When everyone else is excited to get The Avatar title, you'll be clearing AS12. When everyone else finally gets their Arrhidaeus, you'll be clearing Omega.

I'm surprised that this has been a thing lately, especially with the community complaints about players not knowing how to handle mechanics if phases can't be skipped due to low dps.

*EDIT*
Just saw that this post was from 2015.

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Originally Posted by floofuf

Content is supposed to be fun.

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Let me ask you this, what is the current most difficult content? (that would be savage creator). How difficult is savage creator? (not difficult for a hardcore player). I have seen arguments from hardcore players saying that content is getting easier and there is nothing for them to do, AND I have seen arguements from casual players asking for the devs to stop wasting resources on hardcore content that nobody will do.

Why is it then that content specifically intended for hardcore players is nerfed for casual players then? Why do we not keep hard content hard for those players so that we can develop new content AND keep old content relevant, im not trying to take anything away, I am proposing that content stays relevant. I'm even ok with Madoc's compromise of offering different rewards based on if content is beaten synced/unsynced, as it gives incentive to run the content as it should be rather than facerolling it, but saying that "if you faceroll this content with unsynced you can have all the same rewards as doing it synced" is not ok.

There is a massive underlying problem with the reward system in the game, and the "do if for fun and challenge" and "everyone deserves everything" mentality does not bode well for a healthy reward system, and people will eventually give up as there is no incentive to keep playing (examples: Gear that becomes outdated quickly, gear that is meaningless or equivilent to easier content, rewards that can just be facerolled in a few months, items that are moved to other content, challenges that are radically nerfed).

Edit: As for the necro, I think this thread is still relevant. In stormblood a lot of heavensward content will get nerfed, the alexander savage mounts and minions will be on faceroll farm, come 4.0 the devs are planning a third difficulty akin to savage coil, again, why should I bother doing it if it is just going to become faceroll content? This is a current issue and it is very unhealthy towards the midcore-hardcore community within the game.

Totally support my above neighbor

In all honesty, give unsynced the mounts / gear / whatever they want. The only thing they shouldn't get is achievment points and titles.

I mean as a casually hardcore player (lawl)... I personally don't really care much for the mounts, but it's the satisfaction of knowing I beat something at the time that it was relevant. Titles are an in-game way of showing that without holding gear, mounts, minions etc from those the playerbase that are likely more interested in them.

Even though I personally run around with no title, I can understand the appreciation some people would have of having something like that exclusive for those that beat the content.

A title is a small trophy or head nod to those that did beat the content. Let them keep it.
If other people want that title, then they can get it by syncing.

Tfw people are throwing the story card in the completely optional tier of the raid which doesn't add anything apart from challenge.

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Originally Posted by Lovescake

Tfw people are throwing the story card in the completely optional tier of the raid which doesn't add anything apart from challenge.

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This is a psycological thing more than anything. Because coil didn't have a normal mode, story was a reward for raiding, now in savage alexander, story is no longer a reward, therefor raiders feel like the story reward was taken away from them. It is a valid complaint because so much else was also taken away in gordias (no unique gear, no story, and an increased difficulty led to a lot of players being put off).