AST Sect Theory

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The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up.

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Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.

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A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

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Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.



Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

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The miscommunication comes from me not clarifying that I meant Helios, and your assumtion that I was referring to A. Helios -- which I already clarified earlier was weaker than Succor. I'm also not going to say they don't overwrite shields, because we all know they do. I'm not attempting to skewer numbers, please understand. I don't make any progress with my theory if I provide false numbers.

Now, yes, those skills are available to the AST in Diurnal, but they're also not as potent. It makes a differenece when you look at how the SCH is better off shielding, Divine Wind, and then healing with the AST alongside them than they are relying on regen. This is because that overall Divine Wind is going to do an overall better job of healing the group than A. Helios. Its duration is shorter, but has a higher consistant potency of 100. When I compared my SCH in the same gear as my AST, I found that Divine Wind was healing for twice as much as my A. Helios (surprise! or, well, not really :P).

There was more originally, but I seem to have made a mistake when I was editing.

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.

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I would love to. Sadly, I don't have a Static or FC to help me, and queues are so long for coil that it's almost impossible for me to get a full party during the weekdays.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

Adloquium is a cure potency of 300
Succor is a cure potency of 150
Aspected Benefic is a cure potency of 199.5 (don't know if they round up or down)
Aspected Helios is a cure potency of 147
Physick is a cure potency of 400
Embrace is a cure potency of 300 (someone fact check me, please)
Benefic is a cure potency of 399
Benefic II is a cure potency of 651
(these are with Noct +5%)

If an AST is using AB or AH in Noct Sect for any reason other than emergencies where something has gone terribly, horribly wrong, they've done goofed. Meanwhile, they've got some very potent healing that they can do to keep the party up.

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Got to make this brief. Did some numbers for you. Diu - Benefic II healed for 3600ish, Noct - Benefic II for 3900ish. Diu Aspected Benefic Regen is about 500ish a tick. So yes, front loaded Noct is doing more healing but when you add HoT into the mix, Diu overtakes the benefit in one tick. Noct does have uses though, mainly speed runs where you can add an extra buffer to the tank and not get hate from it but as a whole... Noct sucks and needs buff/change.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

I would love to. Sadly, I don't have a Static or FC to help me, and queues are so long for coil that it's almost impossible for me to get a full party during the weekdays.

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Well go level up to 60 then so you are on the same page as everyone else =P

See above reply to on clarifying the AoE healing.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

See above reply to on clarifying the AoE healing.

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You responded to the same post, twice. Check my follow-up.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

Mispost on my part. Was meaning to reply to your response.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.

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I might be a little lost here, but I don't see why on earth you would take a Noct AST with a SCH following this logic. The Diurnal AST has a teeny-tiny bit less upfront potency in exchange for massively increased healing over time and MP efficiency before you even consider that CO and Time Dilation also happen to extend their HoT effects.

If you aren't bringing the Noct AST to provide shielding, you aren't bringing it at all. Diurnal beats it in every other way possible.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Got to make this brief. Did some numbers for you. Diu - Benefic II healed for 3600ish, Noct - Benefic II for 3900ish. Diu Aspected Benefic Regen is about 500ish a tick. So yes, front loaded Noct is doing more healing but when you add HoT into the mix, Diu overtakes the benefit in one tick. Noct does have uses though, mainly speed runs where you can add an extra buffer to the tank and not get hate from it but as a whole... Noct sucks and needs buff/change.

Well go level up to 60 then so you are on the same page as everyone else =P

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Thanks for at least running numbers. Now, was this just with a training dummy or did you run this in content? I ask because the 500/tick is important if it's healing more than incoming damage. Otherwise we're par for the course, and that's only kind of okay.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

You responded to the same post, twice. Check my follow-up.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

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I fixed my post, please look at it and reply as you see fit :)

I'm suggesting that the SCH is a powerhouse in it's own right, which we all acknowledge, and doesn't require a WHM or WHM fill-in to get through tougher content. The +5% to healing potency means that the AST adds 304.5 AoE healing to the SCH 150 + shields. That instead of a 400 potency heal + 300 potency heals from fairy, the AST assists with benefic at 399 potency or benefic II at 651. Diurnal only offers stronger healing potential if there isn't a greater amount of incoming damage than the HoT can cover. That is what I'm suggesting.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

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Suggesting that AST use Nocturnal with SCH just for the 5% healing increase (while ignoring Aspected Benefic/Helios), rather than Diurnal, is complete nonsense. Dirunal provides far more overall healing through Aspected Benefic/Helios compared to Nocturnal using Benefic I/II and Helios. Yes, Noct Sect healing is more upfront, but the overall healing done will be far, far lower compared to Diurnal and much less MP-Efficient.

No testing is even needed if that's what you're suggesting.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Suggesting that AST use Nocturnal with SCH just for the 5% healing increase (while ignoring Aspected Benefic/Helios), rather than Diurnal, is complete nonsense. Dirunal provides far more overall healing through Aspected Benefic/Helios compared to Nocturnal using Benefic I/II and Helios. Yes, Noct Sect healing is more upfront, but the overall healing done will be far, far lower compared to Diurnal and much less MP-Efficient.

No testing is even needed if that's what you're suggesting.

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Not sure where it comes in as nonsensical. Out of curiosity I went to check out some Alexander Savage videos, just to see what types of damage a healer would be dealing with (does this make me an expert suddenly? No, but it's what I've got to work with until I unlock Alexander and have an AST at 60 + static or FC). So far with A1S it looks like most of the damage is single target, directed at tanks, which wouldn't require HoT when most of the damage incoming is greater than what can be healed. Might make it easier, what with 750 HoT for 18sec (this is using Dyvid's 500 + half again for A. Helios) but when the damage is 2k+... why wouldn't it be better to have the improved healing potency? The combined HoT for those 18sec is fantastic, but not too far off from Divine Wind's 700 over 21 seconds.

I get where people find Diurnal MP efficient, but I haven't had MP problems with Nocturnal. Then again, those might be unrelated. For clarity, though, because maybe I've got the wrong idea about it, MP efficiency is the state of your MP pool coming out of a fight? Or is it better defined by the cost of spells per potency?

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

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Again, you are completely ignoring the bonus healing offered by Diurnal's HoTs in favor of upfront healing with lower overall output. Not to mention Aspected Benefic is also instant cast and Benefic II is not; so the "upfront" heal of Nocturnal is even less so, since it's back loaded with a cast time compared to Dirunal's Aspected Benefic.

Dirunal > Nocturnal for healing throughput and efficiency; it doesn't need to be tested. Diurnal still has access to Benefic II, so you can easily stack HoTs and Benefic II if needed; Benefic II isn't exclusive to Nocturnal, and even while more potent in Nocturnal, isn't worth forgoing healing tics for when paired with SCH (which is what you're suggesting). The HoT's that Diurnal offer more than make up for the 5% difference.

You also lose out on CU's healing ticks, which while situational, are usually far more preferred to 10% DMG reduction. Also combined with CO + Dirunal HoTs, Dirunal pulls way ahead of Nocturnal for MP efficiency.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Again, you are completely ignoring the bonus healing offered by Diurnal's HoTs in favor of upfront healing with lower overall output. Not to mention Aspected Benefic is also instant cast and Benefic II is not; so the "upfront" heal of Nocturnal is even less so, since it's back loaded with a cast time compared to Dirunal's Aspected Benefic.

Dirunal > Nocturnal for healing throughput and efficiency; it doesn't need to be tested. Diurnal still has access to Benefic II, so you can easily stack HoTs and Benefic II if needed; Benefic II isn't exclusive to Nocturnal, and even while more potent in Nocturnal, isn't worth forgoing healing tics for when paired with SCH (which is what you're suggesting). The HoT's that Diurnal offer more than make up for the 5% difference.

You also lose out on CU's healing ticks, which while situational, are usually far more preferred to 10% DMG reduction. Also combined with CO + Dirunal HoTs, Dirunal pulls way ahead of Nocturnal for MP efficiency.

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What bonus healing? If the HoT doesn't place the party in a better state with incoming damage like the fairy or WHM HoT does, that's not bonus healing. At best that's dead-even and that's only acceptable because it doesn't hurt the party, but neither does it provide any real benefit.

A. Benefic is an instant cast in Diurnal at a potency of 190 + 100/18 seconds. If we run with Dyvid's numbers, we can substitute 100 potency for ~500 HP, and 190 potency for ~1,000 (leaning to the lower end). That places A. Benefic alone at a return of ~4,000 HP if no damage is being done. If damage for Alexander Savage is 2k at the low end, with spikes of upward or greater than 4k, A. Benefic isn't doing much. It isn't until you pair it with shields (adlo more than likely) Divine Wind, A. Helios, other regens, or more healing spells than should be necessary, that it helps get ahead. And most of that is to help keep one person up while others get a neat regen from A. Helios so that things aren't quite so "ogawdno". Helios will get your party up faster in Nocturnal sect and should be considered more reliable than trying to stack resources for regen.

In Nocturnal, your basic healing spells that you focus on are more potent, and are better suited for single target which is where you'd be needed. You're not going to utilize A. Benefic for it's lower healing and greater cost for sub-standard shields unless you're with a WHM and you know there are mechanics which must be shield against. Benefic alone is twice the potency of A. Benefic when in Nocturnal, and there isn't a need to shield because, as every SCH likes to remind Noct AST, they can keep shields up.

I'm not attempting to ignore that Diurn and Noct have the same basic spells, but with weaker potencies and when paired with a SCH less regen to stack, it doesn't look to me as if the HoT really makes up for allowing the AST to stack its stronger healing potential with the SCH plenty strong healing kit.

I'm not sure if I want to dance around with CU atm, as I haven't yet gotten that level. I've been primarily arguing off of what I've already got, and asking for people to help fill in the missing bits until I'm at 60 running Alex.

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If the HoT doesn't place the party in a better state with incoming damage like the fairy or WHM HoT does, that's not bonus healing.

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Your choice to ignore HoT healing/rolling from A. Benefic and A. Helios doesn't make it nonexistent; however, you refusal to acknowledge the benefit of rolling HoTs in exchange for +5% healing on three heals is ironic.

Probably already repeated this twice in other AST threads(there're so many of them XD), but how would you feel if Time Dilation effect in Nocturnal Sect is changed to 50% potency increase in existing buff(including shield, so 2000 damage shield from aspected benefic become 3000 damage shield after time dilation is applied) instead of current 15s increase in duration(which will still be used during diurnal)?(basically giving Enhanced buff effect instead of Extend buff like it is currently). Do you guys think that will improve Nocturnal Sect by a lot?

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Originally Posted by AmiraHargal

Probably already repeated this twice in other AST threads(there're so many of them XD), but how would you feel if Time Dilation effect in Nocturnal Sect is changed to 50% potency increase in existing buff(including shield, so 2000 damage shield from aspected benefic become 3000 damage shield after time dilation is applied) instead of current 15s increase in duration(which will still be used during diurnal)?(basically giving Enhanced buff effect instead of Extend buff like it is currently). Do you guys think that will improve Nocturnal Sect by a lot?

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No. Extending regen is more like a side effect of the CD, not the main reason you use it. The fact that extending shields provides no benefit is not the reason Nocturnal Sect sucks. And the CD is too long to even care about buffing shields with it.

Yes, it's the side effect, but with that time dilation effect, AST now have reliable mitigation against tankbuster move comparable to SCH. Also, since the buff will also apply to card buff, think of the best case scenario the mitigation will result from it(15%/22.5% reduction from bole + 150% shield from aspected benefic).

You are right about the long CD(more reason to use Spear on yourself!), but SCH double shield effect also happen randomly(crit) and can last as long without any crit from the mitigation, or is AST's Aspected Benefic base heal is that much weaker compared to SCH's Adlo?

If you're talking about lower healing throughput compared to Diurnal, than yes, overall healing throughput might still be weaker than Diurnal, but so is SCH's compared to WHM's, but SCH still have utility due to mitigation, which Nocturnal Sect is all about. Care to explain further why you think this won't improve much aside from the long CD?

Also, with time dilation changed, Celestial Opposition's effect should be changed to follow it in Nocturnal, which means stronger "Succor", another strong point of Nocturnal Sect compared to SCH(which still have loads of other utility such as 3 Lustrates, instant AOE, better MP management, etc.) albeit on a really long cooldown(2.5 min, which IMO should be rebalanced)

Shields are pretty ephemeral buffs, and trying to buff a buff that in many situations can disappear in an instant is awfully fidgety. You get to blow a CD for the privilege of still having worse shields than SCH. You should only ever use time dilation on card buffs. Using it on the tank for a regen or shield is a complete waste. Yes, the tank may have a card buff, but you really want to avoid giving the tank cards the vast majority of the time, so this should be a very rare occurrence. And you still lack the passive healing ability every other healer has (WHM and Diurnal AST with regen, SCH with fairy).

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Your choice to ignore HoT healing/rolling from A. Benefic and A. Helios doesn't make it nonexistent; however, you refusal to acknowledge the benefit of rolling HoTs in exchange for +5% healing on three heals is ironic.

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I'm not ignoring it, or say it doesn't exist, I'm saying to get the most out of regens, they have to do a few things:
1) heal more than incoming damage to be an actual benefit, otherwise they're a lesser mitigation that can be replaced by shields, and you or your co-healer are forced to spam more healing spells to make up the difference than should be necessary.
2) not be used on a party member whose health is already topped off, if you have this scenario then your regens aren't being used and you have ticks being wasted. Again this doesn't necessarily hurt the party, but it doesn't benefit them either, and shouldn't be counted towards overall healing. Your party members don't need the healing at that point.

A. Benefic only gives you the full 790 potency overall per single target when it's allowed to function without damage ruining it because of shields, long pauses between damage, or in tandem with other (stronger) regens. When incoming damage is greater than each individual tick, it doesn't really help, and you have to use your benefic and benefic II just to ensure your party's HP doesn't go in the red. And that's not taking into account spike damage, or damage someone ate because they missed a cue.

In the time it takes to let A. Benefic work, how many other spells can you use from Noct Sect to get your party back up, while letting the fairy's regen do their thing for a greater bonus towards efficiency

In nocturnal your 2 benefics are a greater potency than your A. Benefic and bring people up quicker, allowing it to be more reliable. If we compare the two sects you should be using less resources to handle damage in nocturnal than in diurnal because you don't have to stack multiple regens to get a benefit out of your own regens. In nearly half the time with benefic alone, you can heal a greater amount per single target and have it cost less MP. In a scenario where AoE healing needs to be done, the cost is split between three healers. 1 that provides heals + shields (SCH), 1 that provides AoE healing, and 1 that provides healing and a HoT at the cost of a CD (Eos). Further divide the effort needed to bring each individual up with basic spells and allow for tricks like Synastry on tanks for half potency while the fairy does the rest, the SCH picks up whatever quick heals need to be done.

In the same scenario paired with a SCH, and AST in diurnal, you have 1 for heals + shields, 1 for 2 AoE healing HoT (and not very many per single target without it becoming MP taxing) and 1 for HoT with the same division of work and tricks, and you have your party using more resources to make up for the weak HoT you're stacking just to squeeze out a benefit.

From experience, you all know the regen stack to work and you claim it's easy, or the best, but then what's happening that when we stack Noct AST + SCH that makes it so difficult that no one even wants to be bothered with trying to make it work? It's not the lack of two skills when the AST kit still allows them to do plenty of other things when they're not required to shield.

I'm not sure which part is unclear when we discuss Diurnal healing vs. Nocturnal healing.

Regen effects allow you to heal more efficiently in any situation where you can allow the HoT to tick (which is frequently). Nocturnal's burst heal is technically more efficient since you spend the same MP for slightly greater upfront potency, but if you aren't allowing your HoTs to work for you in Diurnal, you're missing the advantage completely. Accounting for regen ticks can make the difference between needing to follow up with Benefic vs. Benefic II or even burning an ED.

There's absolutely no reason to run Noct with SCH when Diurnal allows you to set-and-forget healing to help free up both healers and decrease MP consumption for basic maintenance healing. Part of using regens effectively is knowing when to apply them and when you can trust them to work for you.

So uhhhh maybe I'm just bad at math but isn't nocturnal stance more mp efficient at single target healing than diurnal? Assuming the wiki numbers are correct nocturnal benefic is more mana efficient than diurnal aspected benefic even (1.13 potency per mana vs 1.117). Spamming nocturnal benefic is the most efficient single target healing astrologian can do it seems, and you don't even have to wait for healing over time.

Diurnal looks to be better for aoe healing tho as aspected helios is about 0.48 potency per mana while nocturnal's most efficient aoe heal, helios, is at 0.28.

I'm new at this and not a math person however so please critique.

Edit: you can extend the length of the heals over time tho, maybe that makes diurnal better at single target too hmm

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Originally Posted by Ballooooon

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Your most mana efficient cure is Noct. Bene then D. A_Bene followed by Bene

Noct. A_Benefic: 525POT/707MP = 0.74 potency per mana

Dirunal. A_Benefic: 790POT/707MP = 1.12 potency per mana

Benefic II is more mana efficient than Noct. A_Benefic

Noct BeneficII: 651/792 = 0.82 PPM

BeneficII: 620/792 = 0.78 PPM

But your analysis is missing nocturnal benefic I. That's the most efficient spell I was talking about.

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Originally Posted by Ballooooon

But your analysis is missing nocturnal benefic I. That's the most efficient spell I was talking about.

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Oh you meant regular Benefic in Nocturnal. My mistake. Yes, benefic I in Noct stance is in fact your most efficient spell. I also had to double check and I realized benefic is 354 instead of the 394 I thought it was. You're right N. Benefic > D. A_Bene for mana efficiency (pre-Time Dilation).

So it turns out the astrologian's most mana efficient single target heal is nocturnal benefic I unless you consider a time dilated aspected benefic in diurnal stance. I thought "hey, maybe nocturnal is actually the better stance due to that!"

However, after watching the Alexander savage floor 1 clear by Yoshiyuki Ly, I find that the big difference in aoe healing efficiency between the two stances means diurnal is the more mana efficient stance.

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZkTySAHDI4

The astrologian was in diurnal stance

57 benefic I used
33 benefic II used
2 helios used
8 aspected helios used

I wasn't completely thorough as I didn't count all the diurnal aspected benefics but they are very close in mana efficiency to nocturnal benefic I and time dilation makes them better so I decided they would not change the results very much. Benefic counts could be off by like 1 or 2 but I tried my best.

Anyways, it turns out that by choosing diurnal for this fight, Yoshiyuki Ly saved about 4,912 mana.

Despite benefic I and benefic II being more mana efficient in nocturnal stance, the strength of diurnal aspected helios meant that a nocturnal astrologian would've had to throw out 9 extra aoe spells (which would be helios since it is more mana efficient than nocturnal aspected helios) to reach the same amount of healing done by diurnal's 8 aspected helios.

That is, nocturnal would have to use about 17 helios to equal 8 diurnal aspected helios. This kills the mana and is the reason why diurnal saved mana in the video despite nocturnal having more efficient benefics.

Did some more math surrounding the fight and came up with this: in the fight in the video, nocturnal stance would have been more mana efficient (better?) only if the fight required fewer than 4 diurnal aspected helios. All in all, if you need even a moderate amount of aoe healing, go diurnal.

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Originally Posted by Ballooooon

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Thanks for looking into this and posting something. Do you know if there's a SCH POV?

Unfortunately I don't think there's a scholar POV for that run. :(

Unless you mean any scholar POV in which I case I know of Lucrezia's world first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWlViWbK4GU

Meant for that run, but it's alright. Thanks for the Lucrezia vid as well.

But on his A2 clear that same ast was using Noct sect with his scholar partner, interesting no?

Sometimes a instant cast shields can do more for survival then people give thought about.the only true time the astrologian can shine is with precision coordination with the raid that Sally goes above and beyond the call of duty.

II'm tired of people blaming those who main an astrologian as holding the raid back.If you go by that logic then all play station users hold raid back because they are not on a pc.

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

But on his A2 clear that same ast was using Noct sect with his scholar partner, interesting no?

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Definitely. I don't think the claim has been made in this thread that a Nocturnast can't complete content, only that it's not optimal -- especially when paired with a SCH. So far the claims have just been for Diurnast's MP efficiency and rolling HoT over the more potent healing spells. Likely more people have problems trying to mesh the playstyle of a Nocturnast without stepping on their SCH toes (which honestly shouldn't be too hard, just avoid 2 spells).

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Sometimes a instant cast shields can do more for survival then people give thought about.the only true time the astrologian can shine is with precision coordination with the raid that Sally goes above and beyond the call of duty.

II'm tired of people blaming those who main an astrologian as holding the raid back.If you go by that logic then all play station users hold raid back because they are not on a pc.

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Eeeh. Seems like a slippery slope argument with that one. Like, if you're talking about optimization, I get what you mean, but the limitations of a class vs difference in a gaming console isn't a good example to use.

7 full pages of people telling you it's a bad idea. Still not giving up? Nobody wants to have their shields erased by another. It sucks.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

Eeeh. Seems like a slippery slope argument with that one. Like, if you're talking about optimization, I get what you mean, but the limitations of a class vs difference in a gaming console isn't a good example to use.

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You claim that astrologians cannot compete on terms of throughput of white mage healing when the healing without considering cooldowns is around 4%. It is the mana efficiency that catches up with the astrologian so healing is a non factor. Noc and Duirnal are fine. The nerf to letting astro's swap stances with a cooldown in combat was what hit us with a ton of bricks at release of Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Sometimes a instant cast shields can do more for survival then people give thought about.the only true time the astrologian can shine is with precision coordination with the raid that Sally goes above and beyond the call of duty.

II'm tired of people blaming those who main an astrologian as holding the raid back.If you go by that logic then all play station users hold raid back because they are not on a pc.

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More than half the time they are right, asts can't keep up with healing on par with whm or sch. The fact is they have slightly lower healing potency.
Nocturnal stance costs more mp and the shields are crap compared to scholars.
Shields have weaker potency, regen is the same as whm but whm has more oh shit buttons, pom & ds. Cards do not make up for that.

I'm sorry what does playing on a pc have to do with anything?

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

7 full pages of people telling you it's a bad idea. Still not giving up? Nobody wants to have their shields erased by another. It sucks.

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It's not about shields.

At this point, you're only reading what you want to read. How's this. Once you get your AST to 60, get it a bit geared, and get into Alexander, try using your shields over a more powerful shield from a SCH. See how incredibly pissed off they get. HoTs with HoTs, great. Shields with shields, terrible. Can this threat just die already?

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

At this point, you're only reading what you want to read. How's this. Once you get your AST to 60, get it a bit geared, and get into Alexander, try using your shields over a more powerful shield from a SCH. See how incredibly pissed off they get. HoTs with HoTs, great. Shields with shields, terrible. Can this threat just die already?

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IMO you're not supposed to be "actively" shielding like SCHs. During Noct, what you make up for your SCH partner is that massive Benefic II. Yes, it's stronger than a cure II and it's something a scholar can appreciate. The noct shield is for stuff like OH SHIT I FORGOT from my personal experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

At this point, you're only reading what you want to read. How's this. Once you get your AST to 60, get it a bit geared, and get into Alexander, try using your shields over a more powerful shield from a SCH. See how incredibly pissed off they get. HoTs with HoTs, great. Shields with shields, terrible. Can this threat just die already?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

IMO you're not supposed to be "actively" shielding like SCHs. During Noct, what you make up for your SCH partner is that massive Benefic II. Yes, it's stronger than a cure II and it's something a scholar can appreciate. The noct shield is for stuff like OH SHIT I FORGOT from my personal experience.

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This, mainly.

Over the course of the last 6-7 pages, I have not once specified that the Noctast should be shielding over the SCH. In point of fact, I encouraged Noctast to let the SCH take care of shielding. The only times where an AST would have to provide shields would be in a very select environment where a party member is outside the SCH range, and the SCH has already moved on to helping keep tanks up.

In the event that an AST does overwrite a SCH shield by accident, there's no reason to be angry with the AST. Their shield may not be the best, but it's still something. It's not as if the shield was removed all together.

Uh... the HoTs from Diurnal are going to easily outpace the 5% healing boost from Noct. You know what's more potent than that "massive" Benefic II? Benefic II plus one single bloody HoT tick. Jesus Christ.

Thing is, your SCH partner doesn't give a crap about the +5% potency Benefic II cast out of Nocturnal. A 5% bonus to healing spells isn't nearly as strong a contribution as bringing on-demand HoT effects with Diurnal while still being able to use the base kit without the tiny, tacked-on potency buff.

Again, if you're not bringing Noct to cast shields, you aren't bringing it at all.