With the extremely tight DPS checks MCH/BRD are being discluded from Savage groups

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

"B-BUT HEALER MANA!" B- BUT HEALERS GON GET GOOD MATE AND CONSERVE MANA. Or else they get kicked too, the fights in A1/A2 are DPS checks and little more.
And with how tight the DPS checks are (Time limit! LITERALLY.) there is NO WAY a healer should be able to run OOM without major mess ups on their side and DPS side. There is no way that the team is going to surrender even more DPS just to give a healer who is bleeding mana wastefully more mana to waste.

MCH / BRD aren't bringing anything utility wise to make up for this, and parties already know this and are removing their "weak link". People aren't ignorant.

MCH and bards are obsolete already, on the FIRST DAY OUT.

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Maybe its different for scholar. But if you also have to dps as WHM you are only going to run out of MP that much sooner.

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Originally Posted by Taban

Might want to check for AoE there =p

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You're not supposed to do aoe during the battle with Faust.

BRD and MCH (me) in my static and we hit 38% on Faust with relative ease on the first pull.

Cleared it? No, not yet. A few of us could stand to have some better gear. We're in the process of that right now, and I'm confident when we go back in, we'll have little issue with it.

Ye of little faith, Aegis. BRD and MCH could be a lot better, true. But we'll NEVER be obsolete. Not a chance.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

BRD and MCH (me) in my static and we hit 38% on Faust with relative ease on the first pull.

Cleared it? No, not yet. A few of us could stand to have some better gear. We're in the process of that right now, and I'm confident when we go back in, we'll have little issue with it.

Ye of little faith, Aegis. BRD and MCH could be a lot better, true. But we'll NEVER be obsolete. Not a chance.

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Wait, your DPS contribution is 38%?

If that's true it is not gearing issue, your other DPS have problem.

After a night's (really short because reasons) of trying to get past faust, my 2 gil.

I was pulling comparable/slightly less DPS than a slightly worse geared BLM. The utility of Overcharge was helpful, but considering Faust is a straight up DPS check, it was a bit difficult. I certainly wasn't the only one not providing top of the line DPS, as the Ninja who is as geared as me was pulling slightly above the BLM, and only our DRG was pulling farther ahead by a considerable (10%ish) margin.

It's tough, but certainly doable. My static has no intention of kicking me, as pulling comparable dps and having a regen aura is reason enough to keep me. We didn't clear it after about an hour an a half, but getting 1-2 pieces of alex gear across the board before thursday will easily help us over that hump.

Personal highlight was an 8.6k wildfire.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

Might want to check your BRD. My static BRD does 1100 comfortably. Could it be better? Yeah. But others in FC who are better BRDs easily do 1200 no AoE.

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Mind posting some parses? I'd like to see their gear and rotations. It's not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen any single target bard parses hitting 1200+ yet

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

BRD and MCH (me) in my static and we hit 38% on Faust with relative ease on the first pull.

Cleared it? No, not yet. A few of us could stand to have some better gear. We're in the process of that right now, and I'm confident when we go back in, we'll have little issue with it.

Ye of little faith, Aegis. BRD and MCH could be a lot better, true. But we'll NEVER be obsolete. Not a chance.

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Our bump was right around 3.6-4% health. Consistently.

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Originally Posted by Taban

Mind posting some parses? I'd like to see their gear and rotations. It's not that I don't believe you, but I haven't seen any single target bard parses hitting 1200+ yet

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one of the parses on reddit, 1317 on Faust

no AoEs used

http://i.imgur.com/WKDgZfw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8s1mqSZ.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

one of the parses on reddit, 1317 on Faust

no AoEs used

http://i.imgur.com/WKDgZfw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8s1mqSZ.jpg

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I stand corrected, that's the highest I've seen by far

also that smn pulled 1700 single target? That's insane xD

My 2 cents after spending a few hours on A1 tonight:

Our BRD was consistently pulling a bit above 1k (and brought Foe's which increased our smn dps as well), easily killed Faust with him so your point that they'd be excluded is false.
Outgoing damage on Oppressor is extremely intense, and Mage Ballad was incredibly vital during the divebomb phases because even without dpsing I was running on fumes as a whm by the time the boss was at 40% health, so your point that their utility is useless (and that healers that are ooming just need to "git gud") is also incredibly false.

In other words, stop making these awful threads because you never have a god damn clue what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Taban

I stand corrected, that's the highest I've seen by far

also that smn pulled 1700 single target? That's insane xD

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Nope that SMN AoE'd, according to the poster.

We have a BRD AND MCH in our savage runs. We did pretty well and hope to continue tomorrow on progression we just need to fix our composition of having double pld to pld war or pld drk i think! They are very viable.

my group cleared Faust with me, the bard, doing 1102 dps o3o

Mchs are tough to hold aggro from. Stop playing with bad ones.

I am not sure about MCH, but as BRD my Faust clear (sounds funny saying that), I supposedly ended at 1,260 without food or pots. We had a DRG though so...pretty consistant around there for a training dummy of sorts.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Nope that SMN AoE'd, according to the poster.

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If the smn AoE'd how can we tell if the bard did?

if the bard has Flaming Arrow down or whatever it's called, it's hitting all the adds assuming the tank has the adds near the boss. Dunno if it would raise your numbers that high though. Our bard did 1237 (he also had a DRG). SMN can't really avoid AoEing since Deathflare and Shadowflare. So a lot of the parses seem really high tuned because a lot of classes have some form of AoE I feel in their actual rotation.

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Originally Posted by Taban

If the smn AoE'd how can we tell if the bard did?

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sigh, if you don't believe, no one force you to D: Some people can't stand there're better player around D:

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Originally Posted by Taban

If the smn AoE'd how can we tell if the bard did?

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with the second picture showing what skills were used. the main thing that did aoe dmg was flaming arrow.

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Originally Posted by Parapluies

sigh, if you don't believe, no one force you to D: Some people can't stand there're better player around D:

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/shrug like the poster above said, depending on how many mobs are sitting around flaming arrow could add a decent amount to dps. 1000-1100 single target seems about normal with a drg, 1300 seems a bit high, at least until we have a few weeks to get more gear.

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Originally Posted by Taban

/shrug like the poster above said, depending on how many mobs are sitting around flaming arrow could add a decent amount to dps. 1000-1100 single target seems about normal with a drg, 1300 seems a bit high, at least until we have a few weeks to get more gear.

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Without an official parser we don't know how accurate/inaccurate 3rd party parsers are. Of course most will say those that show them doing higher DPS will be accurate XD. You can have 2 people running the same parser in the same party come out with different results that can vary anything upto 10% between them, Ive seen it. I've also seen some using parsers that where unable to meet a DPS check supposably pulling higher than another party that their parser was reporting them doing less overall DPS. According to the parser the first party should have beaten the enrage, the second shouldn't have, whereas the opposite was true.

Present 3rd party parsers can be used as a guide to improve and to check for huge discrepencies, but until we get official feedback on what DPS we are obtaining then we will never know how inaccurate/accurate they are without that 100% accurate official basis to compare it to.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Wait, your DPS contribution is 38%?

If that's true it is not gearing issue, your other DPS have problem.

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Lol, no no, I meant the group together reached 38% of Faust's HP. Going in blind and on a second pull, I'm satisfied with that for now. If BRD/MCH were so obsolete as he says, that shouldn't have been possible, no?

I'm pretty sure BRD/MCH are shunned from endgame content because of that kind of thread.
People hear and read that BRD/MCH are bad, therefore it must be true, when they see one they immediately repeat what they heard "we won't make it because of the Bard" without any proof other than "They said it on reddit !".

Please OP, stop killing us. We're doing fine, I can pull 1100+ DPS on Faust, I feel like with an other i190 piece or two and a Dex potion, I can make it to 1200. Or I could try to put flaming arrow on every mobs, plus multi-dotting everything but that would be cheating the parse :p

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

People aren't ignorant.

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One person obviously is.

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Originally Posted by Reivur

Gee, what happened.

Also I doubt they tuned the longevity of the entire raid on Law gear when two weeks ago they just introduced 190, and they just dumped Estoerics in at the same time as Savage launch. Even if Bards and Machinists are somehow 'cut' for now there's absolutely no way its going to last when people start using ilvl as crutches and need their tp/mp crutches back.

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Problem is now Astrologians can bring in that TP/MP regen (quite often actually as long as you keep draw on cooldown and prep accordingly) sure RNG but if we use time dilation and length royal road on the regens its pretty damn effective.

They may need to rethink how to work MCH and BRD as supports now that AST support contends with them.

I got through Faust with a bard no problem.

Don't know about savage alex nor normal alex, but I've seen enough parses from people that show 1k+ on mch. No idea how that will work out on the raids, though. Due to my playtimes and queue times I can't really gear up anyway....

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

Problem is now Astrologians can bring in that TP/MP regen (quite often actually as long as you keep draw on cooldown and prep accordingly) sure RNG but if we use time dilation and length royal road on the regens its pretty damn effective.

They may need to rethink how to work MCH and BRD as supports now that AST support contends with them.

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I always thought that recovery abilities should of been given to healing classes, Bard could of even been made as a healer. Would of saved many problems along the line. But just musings maybe as a bard i'll write a song about them....

Killed faust last night on 2nd pull. Pld cleaved me with the adds on the first pull and killed me. We had a BRD. She was doing 1,170 dps above the melee. Me thinks you need to git gud. Also 30% wipe on oppressors then stupid server issues started happening and kept dropping my packets and eating my provokes when I went to pick up .5... GG SE.

If at least one of your healers does not DPS on faust you are not making it. Me and the WHM DPSed on faust pretty hard on my static (I did around 450 with SCH and the WHM stood at 200+ because he was babysitting a bit more the tanks), and we still hit enrage and would've wiped provided it had lived a few seconds more.

I'm not going to call bad healers who do not want to DPS, but you are just objectively helping your team less, really, it's not very hard to understand -.-, just check top raid healers. SCH's lucrezia goes around with 2 fending accessories with accuracy and 2 healing crafted accessories full accuracy melded.

Should healers who don't DPS be discriminated? Nope.
Do they bring objectively less to the table? Yes.

Also, I call bs to that couple people who claimed to beat faust without their healers DPSing, pretty sure that's not doable at the moment, and if it really really was, it would make absolutely no sense for those 4 GODLIKE 2k DPS to be in the same static as 2 healers that can only spam physick/adlo and cure/cure II on a boss that is nothing but a dummy... -_-

I think it's 'excluded' :D

Well as a main Bard since 2.0 i must say... there are many many BAD Bards out there..

Just a few days ago we had an 2nd Bard in our static and he did 500 dps.. lolz
And the Bard that was in my static before me sucked as well.

I dont understand how people can just do 500 dps with 180 Gear..
Iam 185 now and my ~ DPS is arround 900. Deppends on the fight mostly.

And Mechas are just hated by this community it seems..

The bard in our static group yesterday in savage pulled his weight just fine. Dunno what you are talking about OP.

How funny op stopped posting here. Alexander savage clearing with both of these classes without problem. All op did was admit he cant pull 1k deeps.

Gotta admit, I've seen an A1S clear with a Bard in it.

Sorry man, your arguments aren't holding water this time.

What tight DPS checks ?


Also, our MCH who was above 1k pretty much the entire fight(Opressor) would like to have a word with you.

Dropped Faust with a drk, sat and mch on party so.........

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Originally Posted by Zeke_Anderson

Dropped Faust with a drk, sat and mch on party so.........

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Has anyone actually cleared Oppressor with an AST, though? I'm legit curious about this. Last I checked all our server's clears were with WHM/SCH only.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Has anyone actually cleared Oppressor with an AST, though? I'm legit curious about this. Last I checked all our server's clears were with WHM/SCH only.

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I don't believe Opressor can be cleared with an AST especially with current gear. I would love to be proven wrong.

I think people are confusing "It's possible to clear this" with "Groups are excluding bards because it's a tough dps check and they bring sub-par dps". I'm sure all of your statics can easily do it with 4 bards no problem at all, but the OP's concern is justified. After watching the groups for a few hours last night I don't think it's as widespread as he was afraid it would be. Over the course of the night I only saw 3 groups doing A1 with "no brd/mch" As gear gets better those will probably pass as well, it'll be interesting to see what kind of dps check later turns bring though.