[DRG] Concerning the recent Live Letter QA24 - Wheeling Thrust/Fang&Claw

Dragoon is fine how it is, but they do need to change Wheeling Thrust to make it a different skill from Fang and Claw and the damage loss for missing a positional and that's it. No one is asking to get rid of positionals, just because a person asked this question doesn't mean all dragoons share the opinion.

It's fine the way it is, y'all just need to git gud. Drg is up there for highest melee dps if you play it correctly, have the skill, and attention to detail. If they give us the nerf, then it will be like mindless 2.0 rotation where any idiot can pull deeps. It's probably only the truly skilled players who want to keep it the way it is... but in the end, SE will give the bleeding heart Cash-uals their nerf for the new mindless 3.0 rotation. #ImAnElitistSoSueMe

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

then it will be like mindless 2.0 rotation where any idiot can pull deeps.

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2.0 DRG wasn't mindless. 2.5 (I think ?) was.

Dragoons were used to a "mechanic" rotation: basically wasn't that hard to keep a perfect rotation and positionals in 2.0. At the end of 2.0, we can admit that playing DRG was pretty easy and any average player would be not so different from a really good one. Now you're basically forced to tactical decisions, something Monks have known from a long time. Sure, having two identical 4ths that differs only for positioning sounds like lazy design but you should accept that sometimes you can miss a positional or just need to wait for them. About Ravana (a fight in which the "Seeing" move is the last of your problem as a DRG) the "Seeing" ability has 5s duration, you have 10 to perform 4th. It's the same of the beginning of 2.0, Garuda was an unforgiving battle for melee but sure can't be used as a template of all fight in 2.0. What really bothers me about the new mechanics is how much are affected by latency and the animation stun you get when you do 4th and the effect wears off.

I like the mechanic in that it makes you require active thinking, rather than simply repeating the same long rotation over and over again. It would be nicer if we got both abilities at once, but hey I think we ended up better than with say, Warden's Paeon. What a waste of a slot.

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

2.0 DRG wasn't mindless. 2.5 (I think ?) was.

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2.45. and.. no?

It literally played the same. Only there wasn't a stupid "Did the boss turn, forcing me to try my positional again?"

The only change the rotation saw throughout 2.0 was the removal of Fracture and Phlebotomize being put behind IDC while we were still figuring shit out.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Only there wasn't a stupid "Did the boss turn, forcing me to try my positional again?"

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You hate missing your positionals because of boss movements, I get that, but the fact is playing DRG before 2.45 was far more difficult. When you know an encounter the movements in question are predictable and you can adapt to them by learning its patterns (even Melusine's sudden turn arounds). Having a perfect run under those conditions feels really rewarding, moreso than it felt after 2.45. That's how I felt at least.

Did you just stop trying as hard to land all of them? All I got from the change was less irritation, still felt really rewarding when I got a perfect run.

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Did you just stop trying as hard to land all of them?

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Yeah, pretty much. There was no reason to be greedy with positionals anymore, like trying to fit a heavy thrust between two earth shakers or something like that. The difference wouldn't even show on a parse. :O
Don't get me wrong though, I was still getting on position when needed, but when there's no real risk it doesn't feel the same.

I'm alright with the present system, but I would also be alright with a rebalancing. Something feels off somewhere between trying to fit everything into one Heavy Thrust, the timings needed for BotD maintenance, the heavy clipping on Chaos Thrust, or the (unprecedented for a combo?) 100 potency for Fang/Wheeling out-of-position. I'm only saying that it combines into something strange; each one on their own is probably not a problem.

One perplexing element is the names of the buffs "Enhanced Wheeling Thrust" and "Sharper Fang and Claw" when this doesn't match the game's behavior--if you don't have the appropriate buff, you can't use either of these weaponskills (okay... I'm actually just waxing rhetorical here; I am aware that the status names and descriptions in the other languages' clients are accurate to the gameplay). I do like the implication that there could be a normal Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw, and that the proc could be a nice but not necessary reward (e.g. extending BotD only if the right step is used).

And right now, despite that I know it's balanced around Geirskogul and jumps, it feels like a real letdown to use Fang/Wheeling while going solo because they are so weak on their own. And yet I can't help but be annoyed when BotD is down and the fourth combo steps aren't even available....

Still, I'm glad overall that dragoon is a technically demanding job like I used to enjoy in 2.1-2.4 (but this time with high rewards that match the risks), and that the current design has the dangerous, chaotic feeling of the Azure Dragoon's stolen dragon magic that wasn't quite there before. And despite the frustrations, I'm finding the job as it's played at level 60 rather practical in a variety of solo and party-based settings.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Something feels off somewhere between trying to fit everything into one Heavy Thrust, the timings needed for BotD maintenance, the heavy clipping on Chaos Thrust

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I agree with that.

Real issue is perceptual.

Whilst it feels like we've been "jilted" a skill, overall the DRG feels like a solid class. Someone said in one of the threads that it probably would have been a better design to make the first skill the "full skill" but give you only a 50% chance to proc the "proc" in that position only, and the lvl 58 skill a trait that buffs it to 50% "either/or", but 100% of the time. this would have been seen as a more 'progressive" increase to our damage, but achieve the same thing.

As other people have said, there's far too much debate going on over the validity of it being 2 skills rather then one skill, and were missing all the other quality feedback that the dev's could get from us because it's getting lost in the "2 skills vs. 1 skill" debate. even though I agree, I'd like the DRG community in general leave the 2 skills debacle behind us...given my experiences with the dev team, I doubt that they will be making any changes that literally swap in skills at earlier levels and add new skills in. won't happen.

What I'd like to see is more constructive feedback on Geirskogul and perhaps other elements of the class that could use some twinking. as an example, I'd love to see something as simple as a reduced CD on Dragonfire dive. fun skill, nice potency, but 2m is a bit of a stretch on that. I'd almost like to see BLood of the dragon slightly reworked to include DD (since it's one of our signature "jumping" abilities and fits the skill as much as Jump and SD), in addition to perhaps adding a CD reduction to one of our traits (or just make the CD 90 seconds or something like that).

I haven't gotten high enough to seriously take advantage of Geirskogul, but that seems to be a much more diffictul balancing act then just the positionals with our lvl 56 skill thats spread into 2 skills.

Folks are still crying about the DRG positionals?

Still crying about "the complexity" of the job and not being rewarding? Getting cheated out of one ability?

Crying about how they can't parse as good as others might because they can't deal?

http://i.imgur.com/0Lceauv.jpg

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

I haven't gotten high enough to seriously take advantage of Geirskogul, but that seems to be a much more diffictul balancing act then just the positionals with our lvl 56 skill thats spread into 2 skills.

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Your post was good, one of, if not the most constructive post in the thread. I agree with you. Also, Geirskogul balancing act is what makes level 60 fun and infuriating at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

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This made me laugh but im pretty sure i am good because im at 1k+ most of the time i just want a skill in my rotation to be good not a nuisance for being there :D

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Originally Posted by Remus

This made me laugh but im pretty sure i am good because im at 1k+ most of the time i just want a skill in my rotation to be good not a nuisance for being there :D

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I can understand how it may be annoying honestly. I was annoyed when I was practicing and learning how to effectively use GK, Blood, and my positionals with all the new fights, but as I went on I figured what I can get away with, what's risky, how to do everything as optimal as possible. Now I don't bat an eye lash at what everyone is crying about with DRG. Despite all that i am still open to learning on improving my dps from like minds. Rather than complain and cry about what should/shouldn't be, I work with what I have right now to make it the best I can.

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Originally Posted by Syrus_Draco

Rather than complain and cry about what should/shouldn't be, I work with what I have right now to make it the best I can.

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Surprisingly, it's pretty easy to do both at once.

Also, haven't seen a single complaint about lack of DPS so far in this thread. Or any of the threads. Good job with the baseless assumptions.

I have seen plenty of people complain about the lack of dps when positionals come into play on various fights, mostly the EX fights that force you to miss positionals to maintain blood of the dragon. That's been an on going complaint since many Lv60s have been doing EXs. So it's not baseless at all.

After playing Monk and Ninja for the past 2 years (Monk for 1.5 years, Nin the rest) Then going to Dragoon post-expac, I have zero trouble with the positionals, as well as staying at the top of the DPS list. I don't see why there is so much whining about it. Even in fights like RAV EX where you are "forced" to miss position due to mechanics, it doesn't make that big of a difference in the long run because it's only 1-2 abilities during those mechanics. The job isn't hard, it's complex, dynamic, and fun.

IMO, the change I'd like to see is for CT or FT to proc BOTH WT and FC. Hitting the positionals isn't too difficult most times, but its still annoying when you have to miss it, or delay DPS to get in a position to hit it.

You get the random factor of proc of which will come up, then you add the random of mechanics/boss turns.

Allowing both to proc from CT/FT gives the players the choice. Boss turning and I can't hit rear? Fine I'll use WT.

Some players might abuse and never move in stationary fights (just spam FC and sit at rear), but IMO, anything that gives the players the decision on which ability to use is better than simply relaying on randomness.

Only thing I see in need of change on them is increasing the potency when you're not in the right position so the dps loss isn't as detrimental when you simply -can't- be in the right place.