Master Recipe Gear OBSOLETE for RAIDS

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

A few tank accessories suddenly make crafting worthwhile? xD

What about the other classes? xD

For Alexander progression MT's will likely be wanting full Vit higher ilvl accessories anyway.

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You asked about materia not crafting, level 5s generally have double the amount of stat points of level 4 and any higher crafted gear will require it to reach the new caps. Considering I tripled vit 4 prices when I made my set it doesn't take many pentamelders to put strong demand on the market, the only reason why I didn't use level 5 was that it wasn't cost effective.

And I'm a MT, full vit has it's use during the few weeks of progression. The norm is melded due to the massive gains vs the cost.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You asked about materia not crafting

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Actually I pretty much said whats the point of materia if the crafted gears you can use them in are mostly junk. xD

You can't even enter Alexander in a full crafted set.

Are you saying I didn't enter alexander last night with my i150 crafted accessory set? It's fine if you want to ignore this is a thing you have nothing to lose but money.

Well. You have nothing to lose but your money. Unfortunately on my server the tanks are smarter then to waste gil on a stat boost that isnt really there.

And as the above poster said: each piece of crafted equipment requires you to have another +20 ilvls (above 170) elsewhere on you equiped.
A full set of crafted items (or all accessories for that matter) would mean you couldnt even enter the place.

You're on Zodiark so I'm not surprised it's full of unimpressive tanks who don't see the value of crafted accessories.

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A full set of crafted items (or all accessories for that matter) would mean you couldnt even enter the place.

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http://i.imgur.com/LPUi6qS.png

Next time when you don't know what you're talking about you should just not post.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You're on Zodiark so I'm not surprised it's full of unimpressive tanks who don't see the value of crafted accessories.



http://i.imgur.com/LPUi6qS.png

Next time when you don't know what you're talking about you should just not post.

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Ironic. Care to show us what you are actually wearing? Because if those blue items were full 180 (+190 ravana weapon), you would have + 70 (+20) = + 90 ilevels above 170, whereas 5x 150 accessories would give you 5x -20 for a total of -100 ilevels.

In other words, if you are wearing full law+ ravana weapons + accessories (which is the best available before alexander), you would have less then 170 average.


Oops.

Your move.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Next time when you don't know what you're talking about you should just not post.

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This is assuming you dont get a free Ravana shield to offset your weapon, in which case note that drk and war dont get this benefit.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You're on Zodiark so I'm not surprised it's full of unimpressive tanks who don't see the value of crafted accessories.

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No need to get insulting. Unlike some, us crafters actually did the stats math on the accesorries. ^_^
30 ilvls of lower stats is definately worth it!



Frankly speaking to improve on my previous post: it seems a lot of tanks are stuck in the mindset that crafted accesories are good to have, but they neglected to do the proper math and realise that crafted items have been hit with a nerf bat in HW...


But by all means, if people actually buy them, more gil to us. Selling rings for 50 times their material cost ftw.


Nice snip about Zodiark btw. Ironically it was a tank on Zodiark suggesting that the rings would be good to have, wich made me look into its viability. (which is lacking, I find)

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Ironic. Care to show us what you are actually wearing? Because if those blue items were full 180 (+190 ravana weapon), you would have + 70 (+20) = + 90 ilevels above 170, whereas 5x 150 accessories would give you 5x -20 for a total of -100 ilevels.

In other words, if you are wearing full law+ ravana weapons + accessories (which is the best available before alexander), you would have less then 170 average.

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Actually... the math does add up here. We have 190x2, 180x6, and 150x5 for a total of 2210 item levels. Divide this by 13 equipment slots and we have an average item level of... exactly 170.

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This is assuming you dont get a free Ravana shield to offset your weapon, in which case note that drk and war dont give this benefit.

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DRK and WAR do get this benefit. Two Handed Weapons are counted twice in average item level calculations.

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No need to get insulting. Unlike some, us crafters actually did the stats math on the accesorries. ^_^
30 ilvls of lower stats is definately worth it!

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For non Tanking classes, I can certainly believe that the accessories will never win. For Tanks, however, can load up on accessories that have 29 VIT and 31 STR on each one... along with regularly allotted secondaries for an accessory of that level! This is a total of 60 main stat points for each accessory, whereas our current numbers for accessories with a single main stat on them is 40. These i150 accessories will beat anything a Tank can wear on the right side until we reach item level 240+. If we do get i170 accessories when Savage drops(word is that we'll get some i170 craftables) then they will completely smash everything because they would be able to hold Grade V materia.

Sooo how silly will you all feel when red scrips and I170 crafts come out in 2 weeks. There really isn't a point to this argument right now.

I mean all that crying above ignored that I wasn't really talking about it being worth it from a buyer pov but a seller, this is the crafting forum. I've sold accessories to plenty of tanks who know how to play the game, it was a good chunk of change and if you want to ignore that because you can't even work out how ilevel works then it's your loss.

Anyone who has an opinion worth anything knows that average ilevel is totally worthless in this game in terms of actual gear score. You look at stats not ilevel. With crafted = 828STR 844VIT. Without = 689STR 872VIT (full STR spec). You gain a massive 139 STR and lose only 28 VIT, if no one on your backwater server thinks this is a good idea then move servers to where people know how to actually play the game. That 1000HP is not missed on anything in this game considering there is nothing right now that's actually challenging.

Current accessories are too low in ILVL to bother melding, make 170 and use the tier V materia, yea it'll be worth it; right now my warrior merely wears to strength accessories until something BETTER is released because them 150 accessories simply cannot hold any secondaries you want to any degree yet. You have 5 of em your secondaries are just a mess. I know damn well I will not settle for my 3.0 WAR with sub par CRIT and risk missing accuracy caps by melding all Strength IV materia onto each item.

Sooooo yea this is off topic and is gonna sound noobish but would someone mind explaining what these red and blue scripts are ive seen everyone talk about them and it made me curious (my DoH classes are still generally around 25-30 so yea lol) or if thats too troublesome direct me to where i can learn more of the terminology. Dont wanna bumbard this post with my noob questions. Thanks

most crafted gears are glamor only atm.... kind of sad really because crafters should be able to make true end game gear maybe even add crafting quests for components to make legendary quality gears..

Crafting system in this atm is not that good and yet there's so much potential maybe even crafting one of a kind signature weps shields armors too...

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Originally Posted by Gailo_P

Sooooo yea this is off topic and is gonna sound noobish but would someone mind explaining what these red and blue scripts are ive seen everyone talk about them and it made me curious (my DoH classes are still generally around 25-30 so yea lol) or if thats too troublesome direct me to where i can learn more of the terminology. Dont wanna bumbard this post with my noob questions. Thanks

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Blue scrips are a level 60~ (technically 56+) currency that you can trade in to NPCs for items.
At level 50 you will get a special kind of gathering/crafting to obtain items that give you these scrips.
Red scrips are an upgraded version of them that are not yet ingame.

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Originally Posted by AnimaS

Current accessories are too low in ILVL to bother melding, make 170 and use the tier V materia, yea it'll be worth it; right now my warrior merely wears to strength accessories until something BETTER is released because them 150 accessories simply cannot hold any secondaries you want to any degree yet. You have 5 of em your secondaries are just a mess. I know damn well I will not settle for my 3.0 WAR with sub par CRIT and risk missing accuracy caps by melding all Strength IV materia onto each item.

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My accuracy is 612 with melds, waiting for future accessories is a valid reason for holding out if you want to be thrifty but you are crazy if you think the loss of secondaries outweighs a gain of 139STR vs fending. Do you even know the stat weight of crit?

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Blue scrips are a level 60~ (technically 56+) currency that you can trade in to NPCs for items.
At level 50 you will get a special kind of gathering/crafting to obtain items that give you these scrips.
Red scrips are an upgraded version of them that are not yet ingame.

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And im assuming my DoH job has to be 60 to obtain this currency?

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Originally Posted by Gailo_P

And im assuming my DoH job has to be 60 to obtain this currency?

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You can first obtain them around level 56.

I was expecting (along with most other crafters) that level 60 1-star gear would be equivalent to the "law gear." Both 170. Crafted being slightly better with melds. But that i190 raid gear and presumably esoterics(?) would be better. That's a good model. It worked well in 2.0, 2.1, etc.

As of right now, there is absolutely no reason, other than glamour, for a player to buy crafted gear. They can't even use gear to help push their ilvl to 170 for alexander access.

I'm not saying crafted gear should be better, but it should have a valid place. Right now, MSQ gives all HQ gear while people are leveling to 60 (so no demand there) and then at 60, there is no value in i150 or the one i160 body pieces we can make since do 3 roulettes and you can get an i170 piece.

They really should've released full 1-star i170 gear to have some sort of value in crafted goods.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

My accuracy is 612 with melds, waiting for future accessories is a valid reason for holding out if you want to be thrifty but you are crazy if you think the loss of secondaries outweighs a gain of 139STR vs fending. Do you even know the stat weight of crit?

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Do you even know how they revamped several stats, ironically 'crit' bring one of many

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Originally Posted by AnimaS

Do you even know how they revamped several stats, ironically 'crit' bring one of many

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So are you saying that the loss of crit costs more DPS than the loss of 139 STR? Please show me the math.

Would also like to point out that 3 of the slaying crafted accessories already have crit for a total of 65 crit, bringing my total crit rate to 508, so crit would have to have higher weighing than STR point for point for that difference of crit being worth it.

Hahahaha I actually just checked, I LOSE 33 crit when switching to my full fending set, did you even check the stats of crafted gear or are you just mindlessly ranting? You just painted yourself into a corner because crafted has more crit.

Another edit: The only stat I actually lose is Det for 36 points. Now you have to prove that 36 det is worth more than 139 STR for your argument to work.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Are you saying I didn't enter alexander last night with my i150 crafted accessory set? It's fine if you want to ignore this is a thing you have nothing to lose but money.

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An "accessory set" is not a "full crafted set", if your going to reply, at least read my posts.

On my server they currently sell for penuts and it's not worth my time to make them.

Alex NM is that easy, you would probably be better off in i190/i180 slaying accessories anyway.

The fact remains that for almost everything current crafted gear is Useless for DoW/DoM classes. The biggest gil maker from the new master books was Glamour and gatherer/crafter gears.

The latter pretty much makes current crafting a pyramid scheme, the first ones make some decent gil selling to the next ones, the later crafters end up broke because the prices have crashed due to the number selling them and less wanting them.

All I can say is I finally understand how Gerolt feels, spending his days crafting nothing but kettles. In my case, it's bardings though.

The least they could do is add some kind of gear iLevel upgrading mechanic similar to melding that involves gatherers/crafters, rather than passing that concept entirely over to NPCs. As it is now, DoW/DoM classes have barely any cause to be aware DoL/DoH's exist.

I wish there was a reforge system.

Players take a high end piece of gear, use a turn in provided by crafters and then they get the ability to customize the stats on that piece of gear (probably via materia). Players would still need to do the content to get the gear. And since it's only swapping around a few secondary stats, then it's not really *required* unless you're an OCD min/maxxer.

Then, you could at least make some relevant items.

Maybe make it so they can only be crafted by specialists.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

The latter pretty much makes current crafting a pyramid scheme, the first ones make some decent gil selling to the next ones, the later crafters end up broke because the prices have crashed due to the number selling them and less wanting them.

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This is how it has always been. DoH/DoL gear, overpriced glamours and DoW/DoM accessories (because clearly someone at SE favors GSM). Rift has had craftable upgrade tokens used for raising item levels for raid/dungeon/crafted gear for years and it keeps crafters relevant while still requiring people to clear raid content for the highest tier gear. The upgrade tokens are even on a 20 hr CD. I don't get why this concept is so difficult for them to implement.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

This is how it has always been. DoH/DoL gear, overpriced glamours and DoW/DoM accessories (because clearly someone at SE favors GSM).

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It's not though.

2.0 We had i70 crafted set

2.2 We had i90 crafted set (accessoires released later)

2.4 We had i110 crafted set (again accessories released later)

3.0 We have white junk gear that we cant even use to help meet Alex ilvl requirements.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

It's not though.

2.0 We had i70 crafted set

2.2 We had i90 crafted set (accessoires released later)

2.4 We had i110 crafted set (again accessories released later)

3.0 We have white junk gear that we cant even use to help meet Alex ilvl requirements.

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I think we are commenting on different things. Yes right now is different because we only have chest pieces instead of the entire set like we did with i70 in 2.0.

I was agreeing that we spend more time making glamours and gearing up other crafters rather than being relevant to raids and dungeons.

If no one crafted in FFXIV, the game would be completely unaffected because a full set of token gear can be obtained in a day or so (until Esoterics of course). In a game like Rift/WoW entry level crafted gear is more crucial because gear through token gear is a much larger time sink. The fact that FFXIV recipes and token gear use the same tokens is self-defeating because now you have to choose between vendor gear, which generally can be upgraded, or inferior crafted gear that requires expensive materia melding to be on par. Accessories are the only thing that stays relevant because primary stat melding is OP. The last time crafted weapons were relevant was in 2.0 as a filler for people that couldn't clear Titan HM for relic progression. This ended once token weapons got released.

Meanwhile DoH/DoL gear have always been best in slot, with the exception of the Artisan/Forager Mainhands and the head piece during patch 2.something.

They are STILL doing this?? Omg :( Combined with this and how bland the stats are (still, we don't have our 1.0 stats back) I am finding less and less of reasons to log in...

Why wasn't this fixed already? Fairly simple make the ilvl to these crazy to obtain pieces the same as eso ilvl200.. and its worth it.

You went back through ten days worth of threads to find this one and bump it? You know why SE will not give crafters ilvl200 until probably around ilvl230 raid versions come out, others have explained it as have I before in newer threads than this one. All SE really needs to do on this subject is decrease the material costs for the ilvl180 pieces. Do not forget 2.XX ones had similar ilvl difference to these ones vs top end raid obtained equivalent. SE have made pretty clear they do not want crafters making highest ilvl DoW/DoM gear, currently the ilvl180 is mid range which is ideal to help people gear up to begin raiding via an alternative market based source without undermining the highest end raid obtained gear itself. The problem with the current gear is not the ilvl but the cost in crafting them.

It is a balancing issue regarding incentive to craft in order to make a profit and provide an alternative in obtaining low/mid end gear so people can start raiding via the market bought version, it is a minor issue honestly because it is a balancing issue in terms of cost to craft which can be addressed via decrease in crafting costs i.e. red script material exchange cost for example. I expect SE will address such issues in time and same with the problem with the script cap being slightly harsher than needs to be that I expect will be raised slightly at some stage. There is also an issue with favors which could do with improving slightly but again not drastically. There are quite a few minor issues currently with the new systems and such things as some of the gear recipe costs that I expect will be addressed but letting crafters make ilvl200 pieces is not one of them or to be more specific not one that will be likely to change.

There's nothing wrong with allowing crafters to make their own i200/i210 battle gear if they have to raid to get it (such as through an untradable boss mat) which when crafted would bind to the crafter.

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Originally Posted by DarthBuzzer

There's nothing wrong with allowing crafters to make their own i200/i210 battle gear if they have to raid to get it (such as through an untradable boss mat) which when crafted would bind to the crafter.

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While as a crafter I think the idea of making gear out of drops from raids would be amazing, I can see why SE doesn't do it because groups with crafters would basically be earning extra gear over other groups that don't have crafters throwing out their trickle progression strategy on loot lockouts they currently have :\, Its a sad it is something we will probably never see because of this fact.

Make the crafting mat and the final piece be untradeable and unsellable.

I agree with SE's stance and that of many raiders prior to 3.0 which does not want crafters to craft top tier DoW/DoM gear in the first place and consider the current mid range option as the best option because it offers a market bought alternative to get people onto the bottom of the raiding ladder as opposed to completely bypassing a lot of it because bought highest tier gear from the market. I also think buying top tier gear would undermine the value of top tier raid obtained versions.

The way I see it is people should be able to gear up ready for beginning raiding through either a) maybe a mix of high level dungeon/trial grinds b) buying mid range gear via eso and upgrade that if want c) buying mid range through market board (ilvl180 fits that mid range category just fine), after which you grind the better top tier gears by taking part in the actual part of the game as will be using it in aka from the raids alone.

The only reason I can see as an excuse to let players craft top tier raid equivalent gear is pure greed. The whole idea of forcing crafters to raid to obtain the mats to make those top tier gears would not change this since if was to gear your own character you might as well grind the raids to get the highest raid obtained gear yourself anyways since you would already be raiding. The only other alternative is for the purpose of selling that overly powerful gear through the market which I am against for the reasons I stated above and SE have said their position was similar in the past regarding the selling of top tier DoW/DoM gear via crafting.

There will always be some people who want to craft the highest end raid quality style gear for selling and even some who want to use themselves but I think SE have it right with only craftable mid range gear instead. I consider the only problem with the gear at the moment to be the expense being too high on them which is a cost to craft balancing issue, other than that it is not that much different to 2.XX in you could only craft mid range gear back then too though there became an issue with p-melding making them too powerful that SE did not like happening which probably explains the ilvl difference increased from 20 to 30 due to the p-melding issues before.

But why go through the trouble of current crafting requirements when you can just get the law equivalent with far less hassle? In the end they will both be obsolete right?

I'd debate that the i180 gear is even mid-range, really. Given the relative ease of gearing up through Law/Hunts combined with weekly runs of i190 Alexander, the i180 gear isn't particularly useful even for that, at least with how restricted the supply of them will be thanks to the weekly gating and the high scarcity for the materials. When you also consider the need for materia melds for the gear to really make it worthwhile, it's value comes into question even further.

Personally, I think they would have done better to make the gear i190 but limit materia melds on them in some way, either by removing a secondary stat (as they had done with the crafted jewelry) or not allowing melds on them at all.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

But why go through the trouble of current crafting requirements when you can just get the law equivalent with far less hassle? In the end they will both be obsolete right?

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In which case if feel like it is less hassle way to gear up your DoW/DoM through law (ilvl170 upgraded through hunts to ilvl180) rather than crafting your DoW/DoM gear then gain your own set through law/hunts, craft the marketable version for generating income selling to people who do not want to grind law and hunts which would be more hassle for them than buying one of the market board.

Same way it generally worked in 2.XX when people were buying the mid range crafted gear or grinding soldier/poetics etc as an alternative for roughly same ilvl gear that could be crafted. Using that gear then to take part in the raids and grind better raid gear through raiding. In my opinion is not the ilvl of the gear that is the issue since it is not that far off the 2.XX ilvl gap used to be back then between crafted and raid obtained gear. It was minus 20 ilvls back then and it's only minus 30 now which is not a huge difference. The principle is the same as back then as it is now, they just happened to mess up the crafting cost/requirements this time around.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I'd debate that the i180 gear is even mid-range, really. Given the relative ease of gearing up through Law/Hunts combined with weekly runs of i190 Alexander...

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Alexander ilvl190 is still raid obtained gear, it should be an upgrade to the law/hunt based and crafting based ilvl180 versions. You tend to get ilvl160-170 through dungeon drops, you can then upgrade to ilvl180 through law/hunt or crafting which leads to raiding and obtaining 190+. The only issue is it is currently not profitable to craft the ilvl180 the market board version and that needs to be fixed. Sorry if you want to craft ilvl200/210 etc type gear but I don't see that happening and for good reason, those reasons that have been inline with SE's stance on the issue even before 3.0 came along to which I agree with SE as did many raiders prior to 3.0. You can't please everyone but SE has made their stance on this issue known for a very long time so you really shouldn't be surprised by it.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

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Crafting powerful gear worked perfectly fine in XI. This is just a symptom of Yoshi-p's World of Fantasycraft hardon for raids.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Crafting powerful gear worked perfectly fine in XI. This is just a symptom of Yoshi-p's World of Fantasycraft hardon for raids.

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It also worked nearly perfectly fine for all of ARR. It only really became an issue for FCOB and I'd wager that was more because so much of the i130 gear was rather poorly itemized than it was that the crafted gear was too good. It took millions upon millions of gil to make the 110 gear equal to the 130 gear (since it nearly always required multiple Tier IV advanced melds). They could have addressed the general problem through materia and kept the gear at the 20-item-level deficit and made the gear still worthwhile for catch up gear, I think. As is now, it's not really worth it for that either.

The thing is, the crafted gear is a lot weaker than 2.x, but it's literally dozens of times harder to get the mats for.

I think the ilvl on the near gear is fine, it's a light upgrade from Law gear.

The problem is the scrips/mats weekly cap and insane grind.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

The thing is, the crafted gear is a lot weaker than 2.x, but it's literally dozens of times harder to get the mats for.

I think the ilvl on the near gear is fine, it's a light upgrade from Law gear.

The problem is the scrips/mats weekly cap and insane grind.

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Yes, the item level would be fine as is if it weren't so hard to get. With how restricted everything is, they should probably be i190 at a minimum, though. No one is going to pay enough for i180 gear to make up for all the time/money invested by crafters that can make it.